I got a message back, and he/she told me to accept my lot in life and work hard to get rich (if I wanted it), but he/she also said that I am pursuing Moh. I feel humbled :
Islam Why Not Halal Meat?
- Thread starter Lucy Ahmed
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I got a message back, and he/she told me to accept my lot in life and work hard to get rich (if I wanted it), but he/she also said that I am pursuing Moh. I feel humbled :
I got a message back, and he/she told me to accept my lot in life and work hard to get rich (if I wanted it), but he/she also said that I am pursuing Moh. I feel humbled :
And I still feel broke! :u):
Oh, well...
:inca:
You know what annoys me more than the ritualized killing of animals?.... McDonalds staff who pretend they don’t understand you if you don’t insert the ‘Mc’ before the item you are ordering…. It has to be a McChicken Burger, just a Chicken Burger gets blank looks!... Someone oughta get a McStraw and jam it down their McEyes to rectify the problem in their McBrains…is all im sayin…bast0rds.
You know what annoys me more than the ritualized killing of animals?.... McDonalds staff who pretend they don’t understand you if you don’t insert the ‘Mc’ before the item you are ordering…. It has to be a McChicken Burger, just a Chicken Burger gets blank looks!... Someone oughta get a McStraw and jam it down their McEyes to rectify the problem in their McBrains…is all im sayin…bast0rds.
Sinister, if this is your biggest problem today, may I change places with you?
I deserve a break today at...Donald's or somewhere else.
I deserve a break today at...Donald's or somewhere else.
And I still feel broke! :u):
Oh, well...
oh yea!
I'm so Broke i go to KFC to lick other peoples fingers!
- Apr 5, 2010
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So Sikhs aren't allowed to slaughter meat to eat and gain sustenance from it because this would be not showing Deya (mercy)?
If this is the case then why is it that hunting was practised by some of your Gurus and then through their example by some of the subsequent Sikh community? Isn't this displaying a lack of Deya (mercy)?
The following is regarding the 10th Guru, who like his father [Guru Tegh Bahadur] he enjoyed hunting:
"Under the ablest guidance and leadership of Guru Gobind Singh, the Sikhs started hunting Tigers and other wild animals in the jungles around Anandpur Sahib by learning the use of all sorts of weapons including the latest weapons."
Sikh Martyrs:Sahibzada Ajit Singh Ji & Jujhar Singh ji I Gateway to Sikhism
While Raja Medini Prakash, ruler from 1684 to 1704 of Sirmur, a state situated along the river Yamuna in the Kayarda Dun valley of the Sivalik hills, invited Guru Gobind Singh in April 1685 to spend some time with him at Nahan, which "had abundant game should the Guru wish to hunt". Of course "the Guru readily accepted the invitation and travelled to Nahan" and "remained in the Nahan territory for about three years and had a fort built at Paonta. "Today the city is known as Paonta Sahib". According to the Dasam Granth: "The years spent at Paonta were the most creative and significant in the Guru's career. He enjoyed hunting in the surrounding thick forests where the opportunities were enormous. The Guru wrote, 'I enjoyed myself on the banks of Yamuna and saw amusements of different kinds.'"
Raja Medini Prakash - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.
Because these Satgurus are the role-model to be imitated, it is not surprising to see many examples of Sikhs following in their footsteps. For example, Sher Singh Maharaja, Sikh sovereign of the Punjab from 1841-1843, was the son of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and "loved hunting and hawking".
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Maharaja_Sher_Singh
Deep Singh Shahid (1682-1757) is said to be "one of most honoured martyrs" of Sikhism. He "also learned the art of horsemanship, [and] hunting".
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Baba_Deep_Singh
The portrait on the left is that of the tenth Sikh Guru, Gobind Singh, from the British Library: "He is shown on horseback, followed by a hunting dog and attendants." http://snipurl.com/v9ut9
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Just Curious ji,
The prohibition of halal is not connected to hunting. It is connected to a particular ritual method for killing by members of the Muslim faith. Moreover the prohibition against halal is stated in the Sikh Rehat Maryada, because it is a ritual, not because an animal has been killed. There is nothing there about "hunting" that would prohibit it.
As an aside: How else would our Gurus or their followers eat?
In addition, the validity of Bachittar Natak to support any claim for or against hunting or meat eating is suspect as the contents of this document are in places bizarre, its account of the life of Guru Gobind Singh is contrary to facts of his life, and its authorship is questionable.
- Apr 5, 2010
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I don't understand why Sikhs are not permitted to eat Halaal meat. Is it unclean just because it has been slaughtered according to the Islamic "ritual" way? Or is it because you deem it to be a particularly harmful way to kill an animal?
The poster that I responded to, mentioned that it was not showing Deya (mercy) to kill an animal and hence killing it to eat would not be showing mercy. This confused me in the light of the accounts of the Sikh Gurus actively being involved in the act of hunting, which I would have thought worse than killing an animal lawfully to eat and consume (i.e. their is a valid reason for its slaughter) as opposed to hunting and killing animals for enjoyment or for honing martial skills.
Even dismissing the fact of the questionable nature of the Bachittar Natak's statement on Guru Gobind Singh's hunting activities, there are many sources that show hunting was practised by your Gurus and by subsequent members of the Sikh community.
The poster that I responded to, mentioned that it was not showing Deya (mercy) to kill an animal and hence killing it to eat would not be showing mercy. This confused me in the light of the accounts of the Sikh Gurus actively being involved in the act of hunting, which I would have thought worse than killing an animal lawfully to eat and consume (i.e. their is a valid reason for its slaughter) as opposed to hunting and killing animals for enjoyment or for honing martial skills.
Even dismissing the fact of the questionable nature of the Bachittar Natak's statement on Guru Gobind Singh's hunting activities, there are many sources that show hunting was practised by your Gurus and by subsequent members of the Sikh community.
Yes hunting was practiced by our Gurus -- at least by some of the Gurus, and for which there is information in the historical record.
My understanding is that halal is forbidden because it is a ritual. It is not really that complicated.
I am going on the assumption that those of our Gurus who did hunt, did so for food, as has been the case for most of the history of civilization.
Hunting purely for pleasure is a relatively late development. Examples would be fox hunting, hunting safaris to lob big game, birding on preserves set up for no other purpose than to breed birds for hunters to kill, trips to the Arctic Circle by people living in Newark NJ just for the excitement of shooting a black elk. The focus is on hunting for the sake of hunting and it is immaterial whether one does or does not eat the meat.
For some reason discussions of halal, eating meat, hunting, and methods of slaughter become so tangled up that one never knows what the main point of discussion is.
Please read the thread Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh and Meat for more background. You will discover that Sri Guru Granth Sahib does not prohibit eating meet. It does warn that rituals corrupt the mind and spirit.
My understanding is that halal is forbidden because it is a ritual. It is not really that complicated.
I am going on the assumption that those of our Gurus who did hunt, did so for food, as has been the case for most of the history of civilization.
Hunting purely for pleasure is a relatively late development. Examples would be fox hunting, hunting safaris to lob big game, birding on preserves set up for no other purpose than to breed birds for hunters to kill, trips to the Arctic Circle by people living in Newark NJ just for the excitement of shooting a black elk. The focus is on hunting for the sake of hunting and it is immaterial whether one does or does not eat the meat.
For some reason discussions of halal, eating meat, hunting, and methods of slaughter become so tangled up that one never knows what the main point of discussion is.
Please read the thread Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh and Meat for more background. You will discover that Sri Guru Granth Sahib does not prohibit eating meet. It does warn that rituals corrupt the mind and spirit.
- Apr 5, 2010
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So how do I make sense of this verse?
You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? If you religious people are doing 'religious' killing for meat, then what is Adharam (atheism)? If you are a religious person then whom will we call a butcher?" (SGGS 1103)
Also just because meat is slaughtered in the halal or kosher way, why would this taint the meat and make it forbidden to eat it?
- Apr 5, 2010
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"Hunting purely for pleasure is a relatively late development" = not true. Hunting for pleasure has existed since antiquity. A quick search on Wikipedia/general Internet can confirm this.
Just to be clear, hunting for sport and not for meat for food would be considered immoral and cruel (as in the case of British fox hunting). I hope that the Gurus weren't hunting solely for pleasure or for honing their military skills or to test the efficacy of new weapons!
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Well you make a good point JustCurious ji. Actually I stand corrected on the "hunting for pleasure" point. Thanks for doing some research on that and I will be sure to check it.
I don't know if the Gurus were hunting for pleasure or not. It gets a bit Bollywood when we start to imagine whether it was for food or pleasure or testing weapons -- or more accurately Hollywood, in the 1950's/60's era of epic length films of ancient Roman starring Victor Mature and crazy emperors. Who knows what our Gurus did or did not do when hunting? I certainly hope they were not hunting for pleasure. Frankly I doubt it. How much free time could they have had? Moreover, without our man in the street with cell-phone or CNN-IBN satellite connections from the field, we will never know what they were doing in their spare time.
What was Jesus of Nazareth doing in his spare time? Or Buddha? Or Mohammed (though that might be chronicled).
Honestly I don't think much of a discussion can be built around who was hunting for what reason under what moral imperative, other than idle chat.
Let's take it from the top by looking at the entire shabad. Consider whether your understanding of the verses changes when given the entire shabad as context for the meaning of a smaller part. I have posted the entire shabad which BTW starts on Ang 1102 and ends on 1104. Sant Kabir ji is building or constructing a very spiritual argument inside of a poetic structure in a very systematic way.
Hunting would not be the proper referent for the killing of animals mentioned in the verse. Rather this is referring to ritual slaughter of animals as sacrifice by Hindus (pandits), a common occurrence in the time of Kabir.
Read it. Let's reflect on it. And then try a vichaar. We may have to go to a different thread. Some will want to fuss over translations.
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਪਡੀਆ ਕਵਨ ਕੁਮਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਲਾਗੇ ॥
paddeeaa kavan kumath thum laagae ||
O Pandit, O religious scholar, in what foul thoughts are you engaged?
ਬੂਡਹੁਗੇ ਪਰਵਾਰ ਸਕਲ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਭਾਗੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
booddahugae paravaar sakal sio raam n japahu abhaagae ||1|| rehaao ||
You shall be drowned, along with your family, if you do not meditate on the Lord, you unfortunate person. ||1||Pause||
ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਗੁਨੁ ਖਰ ਚੰਦਨ ਜਸ ਭਾਰਾ ॥
baedh puraan parrae kaa kiaa gun khar chandhan jas bhaaraa ||
What is the use of reading the Vedas and the Puraanas? It is like loading a donkey with sandalwood.
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਕੈਸੇ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਪਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
raam naam kee gath nehee jaanee kaisae outharas paaraa ||1||
You do not know the exalted state of the Lord's Name; how will you ever cross over? ||1||
ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
jeea badhhahu s dhharam kar thhaapahu adhharam kehahu kath bhaaee ||
You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥
aapas ko munivar kar thhaapahu kaa ko kehahu kasaaee ||2||
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||
ਮਨ ਕੇ ਅੰਧੇ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝਹੁ ਕਾਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਵਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥
man kae andhhae aap n boojhahu kaahi bujhaavahu bhaaee ||
You are blind in your mind, and do not understand your own self; how can you make others understand, O brother?
ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਰਨ ਬਿਦਿਆ ਬੇਚਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਅਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਾਈ ॥੩॥
maaeiaa kaaran bidhiaa baechahu janam abirathhaa jaaee ||3||
For the sake of Maya and money, you sell knowledge; your life is totally worthless. ||3||
ਨਾਰਦ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਆਸੁ ਕਹਤ ਹੈ ਸੁਕ ਕਉ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਈ ॥
naaradh bachan biaas kehath hai suk ko pooshhahu jaaee ||
Naarad and Vyaasa say these things; go and ask Suk Dayv as well.
ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਮਿ ਛੂਟਹੁ ਨਾਹਿ ਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥
kehi kabeer raamai ram shhoottahu naahi th booddae bhaaee ||4||1||
Says Kabeer, chanting the Lord's Name, you shall be saved; otherwise, you shall drown, brother. ||4||1||
ਬਨਹਿ ਬਸੇ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਈਐ ਜਉ ਲਉ ਮਨਹੁ ਨ ਤਜਹਿ ਬਿਕਾਰ ॥
banehi basae kio paaeeai jo lo manahu n thajehi bikaar ||
Living in the forest, how will you find Him? Not until you remove corruption from your mind.
ਜਿਹ ਘਰੁ ਬਨੁ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਕੀਆ ਤੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ॥੧॥
jih ghar ban samasar keeaa thae poorae sansaar ||1||
Those who look alike upon home and forest, are the most perfect people in the world. ||1||
ਸਾਰ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਾਮਾ ॥
saar sukh paaeeai raamaa ||
You shall find real peace in the Lord,
ਰੰਗਿ ਰਵਹੁ ਆਤਮੈ ਰਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
rang ravahu aathamai raam ||1|| rehaao ||
if you lovingly dwell on the Lord within your being. ||1||Pause||
ਜਟਾ ਭਸਮ ਲੇਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਗੁਫਾ ਮਹਿ ਬਾਸੁ ॥
jattaa bhasam laepan keeaa kehaa gufaa mehi baas ||
What is the use of wearing matted hair, smearing the body with ashes, and living in a cave?
ਮਨੁ ਜੀਤੇ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤਿਆ ਜਾਂ ਤੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਉਦਾਸੁ ॥੨॥
man jeethae jag jeethiaa jaan thae bikhiaa thae hoe oudhaas ||2||
Conquering the mind, one conquers the world, and then remains detached from corruption. ||2||
ਅੰਜਨੁ ਦੇਇ ਸਭੈ ਕੋਈ ਟੁਕੁ ਚਾਹਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਡਾਨੁ ॥
anjan dhaee sabhai koee ttuk chaahan maahi biddaan ||
They all apply make-up to their eyes; there is little difference between their objectives.
ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਜਿਹ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਲੋਇਨ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ ॥੩॥
giaan anjan jih paaeiaa thae loein paravaan ||3||
But those eyes, to which the ointment of spiritual wisdom is applied, are approved and supreme. ||3||
ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਬ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਮਝਾਇ ॥
kehi kabeer ab jaaniaa gur giaan dheeaa samajhaae ||
Says Kabeer, now I know my Lord; the Guru has blessed me with spiritual wisdom.
ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਅਬ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਕਤਹੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੨॥
antharagath har bhaettiaa ab maeraa man kathehoo n jaae ||4||2||
I have met the Lord, and I am emancipated within; now, my mind does not wander at all. ||4||2||
ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਫੁਰੀ ਤਬ ਕਾਹੂ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਾਜ ॥
ridhh sidhh jaa ko furee thab kaahoo sio kiaa kaaj ||
You have riches and miraculous spiritual powers; so what business do you have with anyone else?
ਤੇਰੇ ਕਹਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਿਆ ਕਹਉ ਮੈ ਬੋਲਤ ਹੀ ਬਡ ਲਾਜ ॥੧॥
thaerae kehanae kee gath kiaa keho mai bolath hee badd laaj ||1||
What should I say about the reality of your talk? I am embarrassed even to speak to you. ||1||
ਰਾਮੁ ਜਿਹ ਪਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
raam jih paaeiaa raam ||
One who has found the Lord,
ਤੇ ਭਵਹਿ ਨ ਬਾਰੈ ਬਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
thae bhavehi n baarai baar ||1|| rehaao ||
does not wander from door to door. ||1||Pause||
ਝੂਠਾ ਜਗੁ ਡਹਕੈ ਘਨਾ ਦਿਨ ਦੁਇ ਬਰਤਨ ਕੀ ਆਸ ॥
jhoothaa jag ddehakai ghanaa dhin dhue barathan kee aas ||
The false world wanders all around, in hopes of finding wealth to use for a few days.
ਰਾਮ ਉਦਕੁ ਜਿਹ ਜਨ ਪੀਆ ਤਿਹਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਭਈ ਪਿਆਸ ॥੨॥
raam oudhak jih jan peeaa thihi bahur n bhee piaas ||2||
That humble being, who drinks in the Lord's water, never becomes thirsty again. ||2||
ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਜਿਹ ਬੂਝਿਆ ਆਸਾ ਤੇ ਭਇਆ ਨਿਰਾਸੁ ॥
gur prasaadh jih boojhiaa aasaa thae bhaeiaa niraas ||
Whoever understands, by Guru's Grace, becomes free of hope in the midst of hope.
ਸਭੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਉ ਆਤਮ ਭਇਆ ਉਦਾਸੁ ॥੩॥
sabh sach nadharee aaeiaa jo aatham bhaeiaa oudhaas ||3||
One comes to see the Lord everywhere, when the soul becomes detached. ||3||
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਰਸੁ ਚਾਖਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਹਰ ਤਾਰਿ ॥
raam naam ras chaakhiaa har naamaa har thaar ||
I have tasted the sublime essence of the Lord's Name; the Lord's Name carries everyone across.
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਭਇਆ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰੈ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੪॥੩॥
kahu kabeer kanchan bhaeiaa bhram gaeiaa samudhrai paar ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, I have become like gold; doubt is dispelled, and I have crossed over the world-ocean. ||4||3||
ਉਦਕ ਸਮੁੰਦ ਸਲਲ ਕੀ ਸਾਖਿਆ ਨਦੀ ਤਰੰਗ ਸਮਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥
oudhak samundh salal kee saakhiaa nadhee tharang samaavehigae ||
Like drops of water in the water of the ocean, and like waves in the stream, I merge in the Lord.
ਸੁੰਨਹਿ ਸੁੰਨੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸਮਦਰਸੀ ਪਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥੧॥
sunnehi sunn miliaa samadharasee pavan roop hoe jaavehigae ||1||
Merging my being into the Absolute Being of God, I have become impartial and transparent, like the air. ||1||
ਬਹੁਰਿ ਹਮ ਕਾਹੇ ਆਵਹਿਗੇ ॥
bahur ham kaahae aavehigae ||
Why should I come into the world again?
ਆਵਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਬੁਝਿ ਸਮਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
aavan jaanaa hukam thisai kaa hukamai bujh samaavehigae ||1|| rehaao ||
Coming and going is by the Hukam of His Command; realizing His Hukam, I shall merge in Him. ||1||Pause||
ਜਬ ਚੂਕੈ ਪੰਚ ਧਾਤੁ ਕੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਐਸੇ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥
jab chookai panch dhhaath kee rachanaa aisae bharam chukaavehigae ||
When the body, formed of the five elements, perishes, then any such doubts shall end.
ਦਰਸਨੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਭਏ ਸਮਦਰਸੀ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵਹਿਗੇ ॥੨॥
dharasan shhodd bheae samadharasee eaeko naam dhhiaavehigae ||2||
Giving up the different schools of philosophy, I look upon all equally; I meditate only on the One Name. ||2||
ਜਿਤ ਹਮ ਲਾਏ ਤਿਤ ਹੀ ਲਾਗੇ ਤੈਸੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥
jith ham laaeae thith hee laagae thaisae karam kamaavehigae ||
Whatever I am attached to, to that I am attached; such are the deeds I do.
ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਜਉ ਅਪਨੀ ਤੌ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥੩॥
har jee kirapaa karae jo apanee tha gur kae sabadh samaavehigae ||3||
When the Dear Lord grants His Grace, then I am merged in the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||3||
ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹੁ ਮਰਹੁ ਫੁਨਿ ਜੀਵਹੁ ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
jeevath marahu marahu fun jeevahu punarap janam n hoee ||
Die while yet alive, and by so dying, be alive; thus you shall not be born again
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਨੇ ਸੁੰਨ ਰਹਿਆ ਲਿਵ ਸੋਈ ॥੪॥੪॥
kahu kabeer jo naam samaanae sunn rehiaa liv soee ||4||4||
Says Kabeer, whoever is absorbed in the Naam remains lovingly absorbed in the Primal, Absolute Lord. ||4||4||
ਜਉ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਤੁਮ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਬਤਾਵਹੁ ॥
jo thumh mo ko dhoor karath ho tho thum mukath bathaavahu ||
If You keep me far away from You, then tell me, what is liberation?
ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਹੋਇ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਗਲ ਮਹਿ ਅਬ ਕੈਸੇ ਭਰਮਾਵਹੁ ॥੧॥
eaek anaek hoe rehiou sagal mehi ab kaisae bharamaavahu ||1||
The One has many forms, and is contained within all; how can I be fooled now? ||1||
ਰਾਮ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਤਾਰਿ ਕਹਾਂ ਲੈ ਜਈ ਹੈ ॥
raam mo ko thaar kehaan lai jee hai ||
O Lord, where will You take me, to save me?
ਸੋਧਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਹਾ ਦੇਉ ਕੈਸੀ ਕਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੁ ਮੋਹਿ ਪਾਈ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
sodhho mukath kehaa dhaeo kaisee kar prasaadh mohi paaee hai ||1|| rehaao ||
Tell me where, and what sort of liberation shall You give me? By Your Grace, I have already obtained it. ||1||Pause||
ਤਾਰਨ ਤਰਨੁ ਤਬੈ ਲਗੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
thaaran tharan thabai lag keheeai jab lag thath n jaaniaa ||
People talk of salvation and being saved, as long as they do not understand the essence of reality.
ਅਬ ਤਉ ਬਿਮਲ ਭਏ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੨॥੫॥
ab tho bimal bheae ghatt hee mehi kehi kabeer man maaniaa ||2||5||
I have now become pure within my heart, says Kabeer, and my mind is pleased and appeased. ||2||5||
ਜਿਨਿ ਗੜ ਕੋਟ ਕੀਏ ਕੰਚਨ ਕੇ ਛੋਡਿ ਗਇਆ ਸੋ ਰਾਵਨੁ ॥੧॥
jin garr kott keeeae kanchan kae shhodd gaeiaa so raavan ||1||
Raawan made castles and fortresses of gold, but he had to abandon them when he left. ||1||
ਕਾਹੇ ਕੀਜਤੁ ਹੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵਨੁ ॥
kaahae keejath hai man bhaavan ||
Why do you act only to please your mind?
ਜਬ ਜਮੁ ਆਇ ਕੇਸ ਤੇ ਪਕਰੈ ਤਹ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਛਡਾਵਨ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
jab jam aae kaes thae pakarai theh har ko naam shhaddaavan ||1|| rehaao ||
When Death comes and grabs you by the hair, then only the Name of the Lord will save you. ||1||Pause||
ਕਾਲੁ ਅਕਾਲੁ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਬਧਾਵਨੁ ॥
kaal akaal khasam kaa keenhaa eihu parapanch badhhaavan ||
Death, and deathlessness are the creations of our Lord and Master; this show, this expanse, is only an entanglement.
ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਤੇ ਅੰਤੇ ਮੁਕਤੇ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇਨੁ ॥੨॥੬॥
kehi kabeer thae anthae mukathae jinh hiradhai raam rasaaein ||2||6||
Says Kabeer, those who have the sublime essence of the Lord in their hearts - in the end, they are liberated. ||2||6||
ਦੇਹੀ ਗਾਵਾ ਜੀਉ ਧਰ ਮਹਤਉ ਬਸਹਿ ਪੰਚ ਕਿਰਸਾਨਾ ॥
dhaehee gaavaa jeeo dhhar mehatho basehi panch kirasaanaa ||
The body is a village, and the soul is the owner and farmer; the five farm-hands live there.
ਨੈਨੂ ਨਕਟੂ ਸ੍ਰਵਨੂ ਰਸਪਤਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਕਹਿਆ ਨ ਮਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
nainoo nakattoo sravanoo rasapath eindhree kehiaa n maanaa ||1||
The eyes, nose, ears, tongue and sensory organs of touch do not obey any order. ||1||
ਬਾਬਾ ਅਬ ਨ ਬਸਉ ਇਹ ਗਾਉ ॥
baabaa ab n baso eih gaao ||
O father, now I shall not live in this village.
ਘਰੀ ਘਰੀ ਕਾ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਗੈ ਕਾਇਥੁ ਚੇਤੂ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
gharee gharee kaa laekhaa maagai kaaeithh chaethoo naao ||1|| rehaao ||
The accountants summoned Chitar and Gupat, the recording scribes of the conscious and the unconscious, to ask for an account of each and every moment. ||1||Pause||
ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਜਬ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਗੈ ਬਾਕੀ ਨਿਕਸੀ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
dhharam raae jab laekhaa maagai baakee nikasee bhaaree ||
When the Righteous Judge of Dharma calls for my account, there shall be a very heavy balance against me.
ਪੰਚ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਾਨਵਾ ਭਾਗਿ ਗਏ ਲੈ ਬਾਧਿਓ ਜੀਉ ਦਰਬਾਰੀ ॥੨॥
panch kirasaanavaa bhaag geae lai baadhhiou jeeo dharabaaree ||2||
The five farm-hands shall then run away, and the bailiff shall arrest the soul. ||2||
ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਖੇਤ ਹੀ ਕਰਹੁ ਨਿਬੇਰਾ ॥
kehai kabeer sunahu rae santhahu khaeth hee karahu nibaeraa ||
Says Kabeer, listen, O Saints: settle your accounts in this farm.
ਅਬ ਕੀ ਬਾਰ ਬਖਸਿ ਬੰਦੇ ਕਉ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਭਉਜਲਿ ਫੇਰਾ ॥੩॥੭॥
ab kee baar bakhas bandhae ko bahur n bhoujal faeraa ||3||7||
O Lord, please forgive Your slave now, in this life, so that he may not have to return again to this terrifying world-ocean. ||3||7||
As an aside, I am not convinced that adharam means atheism, or anything close to it. But that is a topic for a different threaded discussion.
- Apr 5, 2010
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You're talking as if the early days of Sikhism were during the stone ages. It was only 500 hundred years ago which is not that long ago compared to other older religions, and I am pretty sure historical records from 500 years ago would be better preserved than ones from 2000 and more years ago.
Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism are far older, and they manage to have a clear idea about their founders and how they lived their lives. I mean the Muslims for example have a clear record of every aspect of Muhammed's life, and that was over 1400 years ago!
It is recorded in history that many Gurus used to hunt as you have agreed. But they used to hunt animals such as tigers and other wild animals, which I am presuming they did not hunt for food as I can't imagine that tiger would have been a normal item on the menu of these Gurus.
"Under the ablest guidance and leadership of Guru Gobind Singh, the Sikhs started hunting Tigers and other wild animals in the jungels [sic] around Anandpur Sahib by learning the use of all sorts of weapons including the latest weapens [sic]."
http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=870
Guru Gobind Singh was invited by Raja Medini Prakash, ruler from 1684 to 1704 of Sirmur, a state situated along the river Yamuna in the Kayarda Dun valley of the Sivalik hills, in April 1685 to spend some time with him at Nahan, which "had abundant game should the Guru wish to hunt". The Guru readily accepted the invitation and travelled to Nahan and "remained in the Nahan territory for about three years and had a fort built at Paonta. Today the city is known as Paonta Sahib". "He enjoyed hunting in the surrounding thick forests where the opportunites [sic] were enormous". The Guru wrote, 'I enjoyed myself on the banks of Yamuna and saw amusements of different kinds.'"
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Raja_Medini_Prakash
Just Curioius ji
You are living in a cloud of illusion if you think that so-called historical accounts of Jesus of Nazareth or Buddha or Mohamed are historically accurate. Let's discuss that under a different thread.
To the point. You are rely on web sites that are quoting texts regarding Guru Gobind Singh's hunting habits as if the sources are eye-witnesses to history. Get real!
References 1. Bachitra Natak 2. Sukha Singh, Gurbilas Dasvin Patshahi. Lahore, 1912 3. Kuir Singh, Gurbilas Patshahi 10. Patiala, 1968 4. Harbans Singh, Guru Gobind Singh. Chandigarh, 1967 5. Dhillon, D.S. and S. S. Bhullar, Battles of Guru Gobind Singh. Delhi, 1990
All the citations -- i.e., 2, 10, 4, 5 -- rely on Bachitra Natak and Sukha Singh as original sources. Bachitra Natak is mythology, and Sukha Singh's work is heavily inspired by Nirmala philosophy.
Bachitra Natak suffers from having no historical value whatsoever, and Sukha Singh based his works in part on anecdotes preserved in family notes.
Would you like to continue on this line of argument and make an even greater fool of yourself?
How about a serious vichaar of the complete shabad I posted for you in place of two lines out of context?
You are living in a cloud of illusion if you think that so-called historical accounts of Jesus of Nazareth or Buddha or Mohamed are historically accurate. Let's discuss that under a different thread.
To the point. You are rely on web sites that are quoting texts regarding Guru Gobind Singh's hunting habits as if the sources are eye-witnesses to history. Get real!
References 1. Bachitra Natak 2. Sukha Singh, Gurbilas Dasvin Patshahi. Lahore, 1912 3. Kuir Singh, Gurbilas Patshahi 10. Patiala, 1968 4. Harbans Singh, Guru Gobind Singh. Chandigarh, 1967 5. Dhillon, D.S. and S. S. Bhullar, Battles of Guru Gobind Singh. Delhi, 1990
All the citations -- i.e., 2, 10, 4, 5 -- rely on Bachitra Natak and Sukha Singh as original sources. Bachitra Natak is mythology, and Sukha Singh's work is heavily inspired by Nirmala philosophy.
Bachitra Natak suffers from having no historical value whatsoever, and Sukha Singh based his works in part on anecdotes preserved in family notes.
Would you like to continue on this line of argument and make an even greater fool of yourself?
How about a serious vichaar of the complete shabad I posted for you in place of two lines out of context?
I am asking myself the same question. Who cares why the Gurus went hunting?
[QUOTE=JustCurious;123891]
Right Now I would say Halal or no Halal Meat shouldn't be allowed at all to any Sikh on this earth jesi boti vesi Soti
Maas Maas ker murkh zagre
Just look at the inccident in Toronto We have more in our plate than Halal Meet at this moment
Hunting, giving a chance to hunt or get hunt by other in same fact
Halal doen't give any equal chance to Kasai to cut his throat.
So I will be back with your topic later
We all Sikh on this website have to be work together to save our Kirpan & Turban other wise people like in power of punjab will take it away from you soon
ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਜਬ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਗੈ ਬਾਕੀ ਨਿਕਸੀ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
dhharam raae jab laekhaa maagai baakee nikasee bhaaree ||
When the Righteous Judge of Dharma calls for my account, there shall be a very heavy balance against me.
I hope I have make my self clear of Halal or no Halal (Hala or bol Hala to save)
Gurfateh ji
Binder
Right Now I would say Halal or no Halal Meat shouldn't be allowed at all to any Sikh on this earth jesi boti vesi Soti
Maas Maas ker murkh zagre
Just look at the inccident in Toronto We have more in our plate than Halal Meet at this moment
Hunting, giving a chance to hunt or get hunt by other in same fact
Halal doen't give any equal chance to Kasai to cut his throat.
So I will be back with your topic later
We all Sikh on this website have to be work together to save our Kirpan & Turban other wise people like in power of punjab will take it away from you soon
ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਜਬ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਗੈ ਬਾਕੀ ਨਿਕਸੀ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
dhharam raae jab laekhaa maagai baakee nikasee bhaaree ||
When the Righteous Judge of Dharma calls for my account, there shall be a very heavy balance against me.
I hope I have make my self clear of Halal or no Halal (Hala or bol Hala to save)
Gurfateh ji
Binder
No. Daya has nothing to do with eating meat or not.
Do not confuse Daya for Ahimsa. If Sikhs followed Ahimsa, we would all be facing Mecca today and praying.
So firstly find out what Daya actually means.
Fistly Sikhiwiki is an open platform and therefore unreliable as a source.
Secondly, the chief editor Hari Singh is a stooge for the Guru Nanak Niskam Sewak Jatha who are Vashnavite Sikhs.
Thirdly Hunting is a pastimes enjoyed by the 6th, 9th, 10th Guru for food, training and other reasons.
Fourthly do not judge hunting back then by 21st Century standards.
Lastly again, define Daya. It is NOT Ahimsa.
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