I'm sorry but I find this really fluffy no disrespect
Why Our Souls Separated From God?
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Air, water or sunlight cannot be separated because they all are various forms of energy; so is the soul. The entire universe is changing forms/shapes but the fundamental energy remains the same. Soul remains unalienable part of the fundamental force, even though its actions and reactions in various forms change.
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When I read Gurbani, the message I hear is that this is our opportunity to recognize and serve God. The sense of separation on any level is just an illusion. This reality we experience is God and the 'individual soul' is not separated because everything is whole already. Find me anything that is an 'other' besides God. Gurbani tells us there is no other.
The false sense of separation is what causes our suffering. It is haumai.
In my opinion, our sense of identity is an emergent property of being a sentient human being and it is a transitory thing that enables God to experience Itself through this toy of matter and mind.
If you live your life recognizing that your human awareness is just a flimsy thin vaneer of Maya and that the real substance of everything of God, how can you not be enraptuted at that realisation?
It also provides a solid foundation for ethics because everything you do, you do surrounded by God, and for no other reason. No fear of punishment or threats of torture. The only torture is never appreciating the fact that God is everything and thinking you're separate from It.
The false sense of separation is what causes our suffering. It is haumai.
In my opinion, our sense of identity is an emergent property of being a sentient human being and it is a transitory thing that enables God to experience Itself through this toy of matter and mind.
If you live your life recognizing that your human awareness is just a flimsy thin vaneer of Maya and that the real substance of everything of God, how can you not be enraptuted at that realisation?
It also provides a solid foundation for ethics because everything you do, you do surrounded by God, and for no other reason. No fear of punishment or threats of torture. The only torture is never appreciating the fact that God is everything and thinking you're separate from It.
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Well, recently whenever I try to focus on god, I have been feeling/hearing/thinking something like god is one for all or all for one? Pardon me as I can not explain it completely as I don't have a complete idea of it myself.
- Jan 31, 2011
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I seem to have wandered onto some sort of yahoo chat group, I would remind us all that this is a philosophy forum....
[While all the off-topic posts have now been removed I leave Harry's message as a reminder for everyone including myself! Thank you Harry. -Ishna]
[While all the off-topic posts have now been removed I leave Harry's message as a reminder for everyone including myself! Thank you Harry. -Ishna]
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Well he is Waheguru, wondrous. Logic goes out the window when you start falling in love with Him.
Cool post
We all have our own soul, but are merged in Him, drop in the ocean, ocean in the drop. He set the khel going, out of a wish to share His discoveries with another. It's really beyond logic, hence why people say it needs to be experienced to really be felt.
Though in reality we experience it daily
Lol Hes in every heart, you have all the answers within you
I sure have em in meh but I just do not know em all yet.
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then you don't know yourself
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please experience it to the full, but try and accept some of us are incapable of such, we get up in the morning, we live,we go to bed, and one day we die, end of, is my personal opinion.
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Cool post
We all have our own soul, but are merged in Him, drop in the ocean, ocean in the drop. He set the khel going, out of a wish to share His discoveries with another. It's really beyond logic, hence why people say it needs to be experienced to really be felt.
Though in reality we experience it daily
Can you share some Gurbani that illustrates the idea of the God wishing to share discoveries with another, or indeed, some Gurbani that supports the idea that there is anything other than God, please?
I hope I get to know myself someday.
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I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to express. Are you saying that you're perceiving god to be the sum of all of us?
Yes and vice-versa.
I'm really unsure what to make of this. I totally appreciate your devotion. But personally I think logic and truth go hand in hand.. I don't believe in the idea that the divine is beyond comprehension and that somehow the application of logic is at odds with understanding, finding the divine.. In fact I believe in quite the opposite. Personally I believe that sikhi does something that no other philosophical tradition does.. It provides a clear framework to understand the divine in a logical way.. It focuses on 'sat', that which is true.. Throughout gurbani intellectual, philosophical arguments are addressed in a 'scientific' manner ..
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While I agree with the spirit of your post, I disagree about a couple of things:
1. You said you don't believe in the idea that the divine is beyond comprehension. While that's fine for you to believe, Gurbani reminds us that God is indeed beyond our comprehension.
2. You said (paraphrased) that no other philosophical tradition provides a clear framework to understand the divine in a logical way. I would argue that there are philosophical systems that actually do this better, but then miss a good deal of the beauty and expression of Sikhi. By my observation, Sikhi brings a closer experience of God than systems that understand God just logically.
[As an aside, I've also gone through this thread and deleted all the off-topic posts and one-liners. They made a real mess of the thread.]
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Are you a kind of Vaishnava? You seem to be expressing ideas you might find in their teachings, unless I'm mistaken. This is some info from a Gaudiya Vaishnava website...
This kind of thinking is not present in Sikhi where the overwhelming emphasis is one Oneness, pure and simple. Ang 83 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:
ਪਉੜੀ ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਸਭ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਆਪਿ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਈ ॥
Sabẖ āpe ṯuḏẖ upā▫e kai āp kārai lā▫ī.
You Yourself created all; You Yourself delegate the tasks.
ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖਿ ਵਿਗਸਦਾ ਆਪਣੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe vekẖ vigsaḏā āpṇī vadi▫ā▫ī.
You Yourself are pleased, beholding Your Own Glorious Greatness.
ਹਰਿ ਤੁਧਹੁ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਈ ॥
Har ṯuḏẖhu bāhar kicẖẖ nāhī ṯūʼn sacẖā sā▫ī.
O Lord, there is nothing at all beyond You. You are the True Lord.
ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਸਭਨੀ ਹੀ ਥਾਈ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe āp varaṯḏā sabẖnī hī thā▫ī.
You Yourself are contained in all places.
ਹਰਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਹੁ ਜੋ ਲਏ ਛਡਾਈ ॥੨॥
Har ṯisai ḏẖi▫āvahu sanṯ janhu jo la▫e cẖẖadā▫ī. ||2||
Meditate on that Lord, O Saints; He shall rescue and save you. ||2||
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਸਭ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਆਪਿ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਈ ॥
Sabẖ āpe ṯuḏẖ upā▫e kai āp kārai lā▫ī.
You Yourself created all; You Yourself delegate the tasks.
ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖਿ ਵਿਗਸਦਾ ਆਪਣੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe vekẖ vigsaḏā āpṇī vadi▫ā▫ī.
You Yourself are pleased, beholding Your Own Glorious Greatness.
ਹਰਿ ਤੁਧਹੁ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਈ ॥
Har ṯuḏẖhu bāhar kicẖẖ nāhī ṯūʼn sacẖā sā▫ī.
O Lord, there is nothing at all beyond You. You are the True Lord.
ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਸਭਨੀ ਹੀ ਥਾਈ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe āp varaṯḏā sabẖnī hī thā▫ī.
You Yourself are contained in all places.
ਹਰਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਹੁ ਜੋ ਲਏ ਛਡਾਈ ॥੨॥
Har ṯisai ḏẖi▫āvahu sanṯ janhu jo la▫e cẖẖadā▫ī. ||2||
Meditate on that Lord, O Saints; He shall rescue and save you. ||2||
And 85
ਪਉੜੀ ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਮੀਨਾ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਆਪਿ ਜਾਲੁ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe jal mīnā hai āpe āpe hī āp jāl.
You Yourself are the water, You Yourself are the fish, and You Yourself are the net.
ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲੁ ਵਤਾਇਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਸੇਬਾਲੁ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe jāl vaṯā▫iḏā āpe vicẖ sebāl.
You Yourself cast the net, and You Yourself are the bait.
ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਮਲੁ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਹੈ ਸੈ ਹਥਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੁਲਾਲੁ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe kamal alipaṯ hai sai hathā vicẖ gulāl.
You Yourself are the lotus, unaffected and still brightly-colored in hundreds of feet of water.
ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ਇਕ ਨਿਮਖ ਘੜੀ ਕਰਿ ਖਿਆਲੁ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe mukaṯ karā▫iḏā ik nimakẖ gẖaṛī kar kẖi▫āl.
You Yourself liberate those who think of You for even an instant.
ਹਰਿ ਤੁਧਹੁ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਵੇਖਿ ਨਿਹਾਲੁ ॥੭॥
Har ṯuḏẖhu bāhar kicẖẖ nahī gur sabḏī vekẖ nihāl. ||7||
O Lord, nothing is beyond You. I am delighted to behold You, through the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||7||
There are plenty more examples.
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How about this from ang 206:
Note, the second line of line ||4|| is translated differently by Bhai Manmohan Singh: "As is the mansion, wherein the Lord places the mortal, in the likewise he abides. what can this poor mortal do?"
ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:
ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਰਾਇਆ ॥
Oh abẖināsī rā▫i▫ā.
He is the Eternal King.
ਨਿਰਭਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੈ ਬਸਤੇ ਇਹੁ ਡਰਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Nirbẖa▫o sang ṯumārai basṯe ih daran kahā ṯe ā▫i▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Fearless Lord abides with you. So where does this fear come from? ||1||Pause||
ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਹੋਹਿ ਅਫਾਰੋ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਨਿਮਾਨੋ ॥
Ėk mahal ṯūʼn hohi afāro ek mahal nimāno.
In one person, You are arrogant and proud, and in another, You are meek and humble.
ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਗਰੀਬਾਨੋ ॥੧॥
Ėk mahal ṯūʼn āpe āpe ek mahal garībāno. ||1||
In one person, You are all by Yourself, and in another, You are poor. ||1||
ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਬਕਤਾ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਖਲੁ ਹੋਤਾ ॥
Ėk mahal ṯūʼn pandiṯ bakṯā ek mahal kẖal hoṯā.
In one person, you are a Pandit, a religious scholar and a preacher, and in another, You are just a fool.
ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਗ੍ਰਾਹਜੁ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਲੇਤਾ ॥੨॥
Ėk mahal ṯūʼn sabẖ kicẖẖ garāhaj ek mahal kacẖẖū na leṯā. ||2||
In one person, You grab hold of everything, and in another, You accept nothing. ||2||
ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਪੁਤਰੀ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੈ ਬਪੁਰੀ ਖਿਲਾਵਨਹਾਰੋ ਜਾਨੈ ॥
Kāṯẖ kī puṯrī kahā karai bapurī kẖilāvanhāro jānai.
What can the poor wooden puppet do? The Master Puppeteer knows everything.
ਜੈਸਾ ਭੇਖੁ ਕਰਾਵੈ ਬਾਜੀਗਰੁ ਓਹੁ ਤੈਸੋ ਹੀ ਸਾਜੁ ਆਨੈ ॥੩॥
Jaisā bẖekẖ karāvai bājīgar oh ṯaiso hī sāj ānai. ||3||
As the Puppeteer dresses the puppet, so is the role the puppet plays. ||3||
ਅਨਿਕ ਕੋਠਰੀ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰੀਆ ਆਪਿ ਹੋਆ ਰਖਵਾਰਾ ॥
Anik koṯẖrī bahuṯ bẖāṯ karī▫ā āp ho▫ā rakẖvārā.
The Lord has created the various chambers of assorted descriptions, and He Himself protects them.
ਜੈਸੇ ਮਹਲਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਤੈਸੈ ਰਹਨਾ ਕਿਆ ਇਹੁ ਕਰੈ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੪॥
Jaise mahal rākẖai ṯaisai rahnā ki▫ā ih karai bicẖārā. ||4||
As is that vessel in which the Lord places the soul, so does it dwell. What can this poor being do? ||4||
ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋਈ ਜਾਨੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਇਹ ਸਭ ਬਿਧਿ ਸਾਜੀ ॥
Jin kicẖẖ kī▫ā so▫ī jānai jin ih sabẖ biḏẖ sājī.
The One who created the thing, understands it; He has fashioned all of this.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਾਜੀ ॥੫॥੫॥੧੨੬॥
Kaho Nānak aprampar su▫āmī kīmaṯ apune kājī. ||5||5||126||
Says Nanak, the Lord and Master is Infinite; He alone understands the value of His Creation. ||5||5||126||
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:
ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਰਾਇਆ ॥
Oh abẖināsī rā▫i▫ā.
He is the Eternal King.
ਨਿਰਭਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੈ ਬਸਤੇ ਇਹੁ ਡਰਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Nirbẖa▫o sang ṯumārai basṯe ih daran kahā ṯe ā▫i▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Fearless Lord abides with you. So where does this fear come from? ||1||Pause||
ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਹੋਹਿ ਅਫਾਰੋ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਨਿਮਾਨੋ ॥
Ėk mahal ṯūʼn hohi afāro ek mahal nimāno.
In one person, You are arrogant and proud, and in another, You are meek and humble.
ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਗਰੀਬਾਨੋ ॥੧॥
Ėk mahal ṯūʼn āpe āpe ek mahal garībāno. ||1||
In one person, You are all by Yourself, and in another, You are poor. ||1||
ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਬਕਤਾ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਖਲੁ ਹੋਤਾ ॥
Ėk mahal ṯūʼn pandiṯ bakṯā ek mahal kẖal hoṯā.
In one person, you are a Pandit, a religious scholar and a preacher, and in another, You are just a fool.
ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਗ੍ਰਾਹਜੁ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਲੇਤਾ ॥੨॥
Ėk mahal ṯūʼn sabẖ kicẖẖ garāhaj ek mahal kacẖẖū na leṯā. ||2||
In one person, You grab hold of everything, and in another, You accept nothing. ||2||
ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਪੁਤਰੀ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੈ ਬਪੁਰੀ ਖਿਲਾਵਨਹਾਰੋ ਜਾਨੈ ॥
Kāṯẖ kī puṯrī kahā karai bapurī kẖilāvanhāro jānai.
What can the poor wooden puppet do? The Master Puppeteer knows everything.
ਜੈਸਾ ਭੇਖੁ ਕਰਾਵੈ ਬਾਜੀਗਰੁ ਓਹੁ ਤੈਸੋ ਹੀ ਸਾਜੁ ਆਨੈ ॥੩॥
Jaisā bẖekẖ karāvai bājīgar oh ṯaiso hī sāj ānai. ||3||
As the Puppeteer dresses the puppet, so is the role the puppet plays. ||3||
ਅਨਿਕ ਕੋਠਰੀ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰੀਆ ਆਪਿ ਹੋਆ ਰਖਵਾਰਾ ॥
Anik koṯẖrī bahuṯ bẖāṯ karī▫ā āp ho▫ā rakẖvārā.
The Lord has created the various chambers of assorted descriptions, and He Himself protects them.
ਜੈਸੇ ਮਹਲਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਤੈਸੈ ਰਹਨਾ ਕਿਆ ਇਹੁ ਕਰੈ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੪॥
Jaise mahal rākẖai ṯaisai rahnā ki▫ā ih karai bicẖārā. ||4||
As is that vessel in which the Lord places the soul, so does it dwell. What can this poor being do? ||4||
ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋਈ ਜਾਨੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਇਹ ਸਭ ਬਿਧਿ ਸਾਜੀ ॥
Jin kicẖẖ kī▫ā so▫ī jānai jin ih sabẖ biḏẖ sājī.
The One who created the thing, understands it; He has fashioned all of this.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਾਜੀ ॥੫॥੫॥੧੨੬॥
Kaho Nānak aprampar su▫āmī kīmaṯ apune kājī. ||5||5||126||
Says Nanak, the Lord and Master is Infinite; He alone understands the value of His Creation. ||5||5||126||
Note, the second line of line ||4|| is translated differently by Bhai Manmohan Singh: "As is the mansion, wherein the Lord places the mortal, in the likewise he abides. what can this poor mortal do?"
I guess you misunderstood or I am not getting your point. I do not know nothing about vaishnav thinking, neither do I care if it is present on any website.
I simply wondered while focussing on naam last time that all is one, one here stands for god and one is all. I cleared that I can not explain it fully but I would try now.
What I came to realize was everything that exists is same in a way, a single focus of energy. And I had a feeling that either I focus on just naam "Waheguru" or everything present around me ,it is kinda similar and enjoy the melody of it.
And thank you so very much for shabad.
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