Why Should I Believe Guru Nanak?

[findingmyway]

Which leads me to my next point, why is there so much disagreement among Sikhs when it comes to the interpretation of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I do not believe Sikhi advocates reincarnation/heaven/hell because of the writings of Professor Baldev Singh, he is of the belief that it goes against Nanakian Philosophy. That being said, this is the only sangat I have ever been a part of that rejects the belief in reincarnation or some form of reward/punishment in the afterlife. Why is this? I was discussing this very issue with a few Sikhs last week and was branded a "heretic", someone even said I had been brainwashed and was not learning the true teachings of Sikhi. After reading Professor Baldev Singh's work, I guess I went through Guru Granth Sahib Ji with a bias and read every shabad in a way that would fit my preconceived notions of what the Gurus were trying to say. I always read it in a way so that reincarnation/heaven/hell applied to this life, and not the next. And it wasn't just a one time thing either, I have been told multiple times by Sikhs in the past that my beliefs about Sikhi were wrong, that they were too "Atheistic", that I was changing Sikhi and had strayed from the message of the Gurus.

So, pretty much, how do you guys know that your "version" of Sikhi is right, so far Professor Baldev Singh is the only "scholar" I have come across who would agree with the members of SPN about miracles/reincarnation/heaven/hell, everyone else would disagree, and the Sikhs I know in real life would disagree.

I come to my own conclusions after studying Gurbani. In my research work I would never take what another researcher says at face value. We meet, discuss findings, look at source documents, critically analyse findings, and assess how well this fits in with what is already known.

When I study Gurbani, I employ a similar approach. I analyse and try to understand in the context of other shabads I know. Sikhi is very pragamatic and grounded in the real world so it should make sense and not require blind faith. Most people (in my experience) who preach that you MUST believe in reincarnation have a superficial understanding of SGGS or are very influenced by Hindu teachings. This influence has come from the time after Guru Gobind Singh Ji was assassinated and the Sikhs at the time were hiding in the forests until the right time to fight. The Gurdwaras were taken over by Brahmins and our history has been infiltrated since. Brahmins are threatened by Sikhs as our philosophy challenges their supremacy.

Sikhi should be a personal journey without judgement of others. Work on understanding and exploring for yourself. Constantly learn, unlearn and relearn as Tejwant ji so well explains!

And perhaps it is a discussion for another day, but really quick without getting into too much detail, what is the general SPN consensus on the Dasam Granth? Some Sikh told me about how there is something in there about Guru Gobind Singh Ji being the reincarnation of Krishna, so do you think it has been changed? If you disregard it, what about Banis such as Japu Sahib, isn't that something Sikhs are supposed to read on a daily-basis? So do the practicing Sikhs of SPN who think Dasam Granth was changed also not recite Japu Sahib?

This is a topic that has been discussed extensively. There is a whole sub-forum on the topic!! Please take time to explore and investigate for yourself adn come to your own conclusions. Sikhi teaches us to think for ourselves! The search box at the top of the page is a brilliant resource for specific questions-one I use frequently! The second part of your question was discussed in a thread recently started by Ishna ji. See you in the DG section!!

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Which leads me to my next point, why is there so much disagreement among Sikhs when it comes to the interpretation of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I do not believe Sikhi advocates reincarnation/heaven/hell because of the writings of Professor Baldev Singh, he is of the belief that it goes against Nanakian Philosophy. That being said, this is the only sangat I have ever been a part of that rejects the belief in reincarnation or some form of reward/punishment in the afterlife. Why is this? I was discussing this very issue with a few Sikhs last week and was branded a "heretic", someone even said I had been brainwashed and was not learning the true teachings of Sikhi. After reading Professor Baldev Singh's work, I guess I went through Guru Granth Sahib Ji with a bias and read every shabad in a way that would fit my preconceived notions of what the Gurus were trying to say. I always read it in a way so that reincarnation/heaven/hell applied to this life, and not the next. And it wasn't just a one time thing either, I have been told multiple times by Sikhs in the past that my beliefs about Sikhi were wrong, that they were too "Atheistic", that I was changing Sikhi and had strayed from the message of the Gurus.

So, pretty much, how do you guys know that your "version" of Sikhi is right, so far Professor Baldev Singh is the only "scholar" I have come across who would agree with the members of SPN about miracles/reincarnation/heaven/hell, everyone else would disagree, and the Sikhs I know in real life would disagree.


Thank you and Sat Sri Akal.

hi Exploring Sikhi ji

ya ,only at SPN you will find members denying death/birth Cycle mentioned in Gurubani .

very recently i started a thread related to Sikhi After life ,you can have a look at it
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/41257-sikhi-after-life.html


blessings

 

[Harry Haller]

hi Exploring Sikhi ji

ya ,only at SPN you will find members denying death/birth Cycle mentioned in Gurubani .

very recently i started a thread related to Sikhi After life ,you can have a look at it
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/41257-sikhi-after-life.html


blessings

I also deny Goblins, demons, ghosts all of which are mentioned in Gurbani, a mention in Gurbani does not automatically mean whatever is mentioned exists, one needs to read what Gurbani states relevant to the mentioned word.

 

[spnadmin]

Not exactly true that one finds a different take on reincarnation at SPN only!

Let me elaborate in a few different ways.

The word "deny" gives the wrong impression of SPN. Some members deny; some question; some believe.

A wide range of views is presented here. The difference is that at SPN, no matter where you stand on the reincarnation question, it is expected and encouraged that you explain yourself, preferably with reference to ShabadGuru. Other sites squelch the opposition; and some sites are content with the idea that personal opinion is a substitute for Shabad Guru.

No matter what your view you will not be called a "chand" or a "lal" or an apostate. You may leave in a huff because you can't take the heat. But you will leave walking on your own feet.

There are other sites that question reincarnation. This is probably the only English language site that allows for questions of reincarnation. For that reason alone it makes it seem as if SPN is somehow an oddball site. SPN provides views that may not be available to English only speakers.

Please always keep in mind that the majority opinion is not by default the correct opinion. A majority can be totally wrong, as often it has been in the realm of science. A majority can also be correct in their views about the soul after death. There is no telling.

It is truly striking that about 1/4 of the people in the US believe in reincarnation. Yet, a majority are Christians, and reincarnation is absolutely rejected by Christian religions. A majority of Christians believe the soul travels to heaven or hell, even when many important Christian theologians question heaven and hell.

People believe what feels good in the tummy, even when we really do not know. Opinions can be informed or uninformed. Important for us all is to have a variety of resources so we can decide for ourselves.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Try reading the works of Harinder Singh Mehboob, Harjinder Singh Dilgeer, Karam Singh Historian, Prof Sahib Singh and the likes(you can always research more, these are just the authors I have came across, this isn't a definitive list).

sat sri akaal aristotle ji

i don't know abt others ,but i have objection over including Prof Sahib Singh ji in your list, just to give en example i m quoting from Guru Granth Darpan by him

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਤੂ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦਾਤਾ ਦਾਨਿ ਮਤਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਹਮ ਥਾਰੇ ਭੇਖਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਮੈ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਗਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਥਿਰੁ ਨ ਰਹਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਦੀਜੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਬਨਵਾਰੀ ॥ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਗੁਪਤੋ ਵਰਤੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਦੇਖਿ ਨਿਹਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਮਰਤ ਪਇਆਲ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਓ ਗੁਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਅਜੋਨੀ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਨੀ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਦੇਖੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਬਪੁੜੋ ਇਨਿ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਵਿਸਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਕਤ ਬਾਜੀ ਹਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜਿ ਨਿਰਾਰੇ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਗਰਭ ਮਝਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਗਿਆਨ ਰਤਨੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੮॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 597-598}

ਅਰਥ: ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਜੀ! ਤੂੰ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਸਭ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈਂ, ਦਾਤਾਂ ਦੇਣ ਵਿਚ ਤੂੰ ਕਦੇ ਖੁੰਝਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ, ਅਸੀ ਤੇਰੇ (ਦਰ ਦੇ) ਮੰਗਤੇ ਹਾਂ। ਮੈਂ ਤੈਥੋਂ ਕੇਹੜੀ ਸ਼ੈ ਮੰਗਾਂ? ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ੈ ਸਦਾ ਟਿਕੀ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਨਹੀਂ। (ਹਾਂ, ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ) ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! ਮੈਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਨਾਮ ਦੇਹ, ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਪਿਆਰ ਕਰਾਂ।੧।
ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਹਰੇਕ ਸਰੀਰ ਵਿਚ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਹੈ। ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਧਰਤੀ ਵਿਚ, ਧਰਤੀ ਦੇ ਉਪਰ ਆਕਾਸ਼ ਵਿਚ ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਲੁਕਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। (ਹੇ ਮਨ!) ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਵੇਖ।ਰਹਾਉ।
(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਉੱਤੇ) ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਧਰਤੀ ਆਕਾਸ਼ ਪਾਤਾਲ (ਸਾਰਾ ਜਗਤ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਹੋਂਦ ਨਾਲ ਭਰਪੂਰ) ਵਿਖਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ। ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦਾ, ਹੁਣ ਭੀ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੈ ਅਗਾਂਹ ਨੂੰ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਰਹੇਗਾ, (ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ (ਵੱਸਦਾ) ਵੇਖ।੨।
ਇਹ ਭਾਗ-ਹੀਣ ਜਗਤ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਗੇੜ ਸਹੇੜ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੈ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਇਸ ਨੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਪੈ ਕੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਭੁਲਾ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲ ਪਏ ਤਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਤੇ ਤੁਰਿਆਂ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ) ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਮਾਇਆ-ਵੇੜ੍ਹੇ ਜੀਵ (ਭਗਤੀ ਤੋਂ ਖੁੰਝ ਕੇ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਦੀ) ਬਾਜ਼ੀ ਹਾਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।੩।
ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ! ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜ ਕੇ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਬੰਦਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੋਂ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈਂ, ਉਹ ਮੁੜ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ) ਗਿਆਨ ਦਾ ਰਤਨ ਚਮਕ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਹਰੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ (ਆਪ) ਆ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ।੪।੮।
http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0597.html

m assuming you can read Gurmukhi "ਜਨਮ((birth) ਮਰਨ(death) ਦਾ(of) ਗੇੜ (cycle)".



ਬਹੁੜਿ(again) ਨ(no) ਗਰਭ (WOMB)ਮਝਾਰੀ(IN) .


it simply means in english that attachment to maya leads to death-birth Cycle . and one without maya( ਨਿਰਲੇਪ) breaks this cycle of again being in the WOMB with the grace of Satguru .


same is translated by Bhai Manmohan Singh JI (below) AND Dr Sant singh ji Khalsa .


<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td> ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਬਪੁੜੋ ਇਨਿ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਵਿਸਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
जनम मरन कउ इहु जगु बपुड़ो इनि दूजै भगति विसारी जीउ ॥
Janam maran ka▫o ih jag bapuṛo in ḏūjai bẖagaṯ visārī jī▫o.
This wretched world is subject to birth and death and in another's love it has forgotten the Lord's meditation.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਕਤ ਬਾਜੀ ਹਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
सतिगुरु मिलै त गुरमति पाईऐ साकत बाजी हारी जीउ ॥३॥
Saṯgur milai ṯa gurmaṯ pā▫ī▫ai sākaṯ bājī hārī jī▫o. ||3||
When the True Guru is met, then is the Guru's wisdom obtained. The mammon-worshipper loses his life-game.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜਿ ਨਿਰਾਰੇ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਗਰਭ ਮਝਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
सतिगुर बंधन तोड़ि निरारे बहुड़ि न गरभ मझारी जीउ ॥
Saṯgur banḏẖan ṯoṛ nirāre bahuṛ na garabẖ majẖārī jī▫o.
Snapping my bonds the True Guru has freed me, so I shall not be cast into the womb, again.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਨਕ ਗਿਆਨ ਰਤਨੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੮॥
नानक गिआन रतनु परगासिआ हरि मनि वसिआ निरंकारी जीउ ॥४॥८॥
Nānak gi▫ān raṯan pargāsi▫ā har man vasi▫ā nirankārī jī▫o. ||4||8||
Within me, O Nanak, is the light of he jewel of gnosis and the Formless Lord has taken abode within my mind.



http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=598&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=2&p=0&k=0&fb=0

</td></tr></tbody></table>



if you have any other interpretation kindly share ..



harman

 

[spnadmin]

When Professor Sahib Singh gives a translation, without offering his opinion of the meaning/meanings, it is tempting to make a verse mean what we want, or what a "majority" of our peers believe it means. It is hard to break away from the comfort of familiar traditions that surround us. Reincarnation is not a required belief or a "dogma" in Sikhism; there is flexibility on this point.

I can remember a time not that long ago when the work of Professor Sahib Singh was ignored. The "majority" preferred the very brahminical translations and interpretations of other scholars. SPN from the beginning explored his work when he was ignored elsewhere on the net.

The advice of findingmyway ji makes a lot of sense because it breaks away from the morass of majority opinion. Read several translations and then THINK about how the specific meaning of a specific word or line fits into a bigger pattern throughout the shabad and throughout Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. A narrow scope is not different from spending your entire life inside one room and trying to understand the world by looking from one window.

Examples abound here of how the translation of a single line changes completely when we see how a verse fits into an entire shabad. The difference can be dramatic when we see how a possible meaning changes against the backdrop of many shabads, or all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

This advice will not suit anyone who needs to cling to "certainty" as in "I need to be completely convinced as to the total acceptability of what I am reading because if I am not certain then somehow my world of religious need and familiar belief, seen from that one room and its one window, will fall apart."

BTW where does the idea of "jewel of gnosis" come from?

Nānak gi▫ān raṯan pargāsi▫ā har man vasi▫ā nirankārī jī▫o. ||4||8||
Within me, O Nanak, is the light of he jewel of gnosis and the Formless Lord has taken abode within my mind.

"gian" does not mean "Gnosis."

Gnosis is a construct from Graeco-Roman philosophy later grafted onto early Christian belief. Why would someone take it as a model translation of the original words? Why ignore the strangeness of this translation; yet quickly latch onto a meaning of reincarnation for other material in the text? See what I mean? Our eye falls where we find the safe and familiar, and then the mind follows. Ask questions !!!!!!!!!! Both "gnosis" and "reincarnation" may be wrong-headed and need to be questioned.

 

[aristotle]

sat sri akaal aristotle ji
i don't know abt others ,but i have objection over
including Prof Sahib Singh ji in your list, just to give en
example i m quoting from Guru Granth Darpan by him

Singh Ji,
Prof. Sahib Singh has not claimed to have produced a 100 percent accurate translation of Guru Granth Sahib. In fact, Gurbani is so deep and enriching that no single interpretation or translation can be said to fully represent the text.
But few people, if any, can parallel the contribution of Prof Sahib Singh in apllying grammatical principles and scientific method to the understanding of Gurbani.
In my view, the Guru Granth Darpan is the closest to the best we have right now.

 

[ExploringSikhi]

Dear all,

I wish to thank everyone who contributed in this thread, and apologize for leaving cold turkey. This thread deserves a conclusion, and I just wanted to say that I am very pleased with the answers I received, they were very logical, rational and I do not feel as if I am forced to believe something that cannot be proven.

I ended up getting more from this thread than I had initially expected, and I can only pin it down to the excellence of the members who participate on this forum, as well as the moderator and administrative team that makes sure everything continues to run smoothly. If I have any more questions in the future, I know where I will be asking them And since this seems like such a cool place to hang out, perhaps I will stay and participate in other discussions, so I can learn more and contribute what I know lol.

Sat Sri Akal everyone!