Why So Much Talk About Enemies?

[Harry Haller]

Harry Ji,

I really can't see how you think Forgiveness is not a Sikh Concept?
I mean, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, God is described as a Forgiver...there are shabads describing Satguru as the forgiver...countless mention of forgiving...

If a Godly attribute is 'Forgiveness' surely us 'Souls' as coming from the same source must hold Forgiveness as one of our True attributes....that is until our mind thinks otherwise..

To practice forgiveness is the true fast, good conduct and contentment.
Disease does not afflict me, nor does the pain of death.
I am liberated, and absorbed into God, who has no form or feature. ||1||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=708

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God Bless Ji.

Red Dwarf, Rimmer, slightly edited

Seventh Day Advent Hop-ists. They believed that every Sunday should be spent hopping. They would hop to church, hop through the service, then hop back home again. I tell you, Sunday lunchtimes were a nightmare - we all had to wear sou'westers and asbestos underpants. You see, they took the Bible literally - Adam and Eve, the snake and the apple, took it word for word. Unfortunately, their version had a bad translation. It was all based on 1 Corinthians 13: "Faith, Hop and Charity, and the greatest of these is Hop."

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please do not take this as an offence but I would like to ask if you are/were a politician.

The reason I ask you this because almost all your posts seem like they are “Sermons from the Political Mount”.

Do not take me wrong, we are all political in our lives. We like to be politically correct or we like to challenge the same correctness but the aura you give is not of a naïve person delving into politics like many of us like to do. You seem quite handy with it.

Your posts have that thing that the politician claims to have of “me-ism pride”.

Let’s take your post below as an example and these political sprinklings are found in almost everything you write.

You write:

chazSingh;189699]Every time the word forgiveness comes into the picture, people start using extreme examples like murdering...

Who is talking about murdering? Only one poster said that but you in your mind made a decision that your whole audience is talking about it hence they all need to be corrected.

As I said before, Forgiveness exists only in the mind of the forgiver, and therefore requires no "acceptance".

Forgiving or not is your own burden, for your own good. It has nothing to do with the person/s you are trying to forgive. If you want to carry this burden, then so be it. Talking to others about forgiveness is nothing but a political stunt.

but they forget there are ample petty opportunities to retain your inner Amrit and

Here you go again. What do you understand about the meaning of Amrit as per Gurbani.

Please explain it. Your Amrit seems corked in and hence you want to retain it.

forgive in many family situations, friends...life at work....

This is exactly what I mean by “Sermon from the Political Mount”. Who are you addressing to? What is the idea behind it? What are your intentions? Why do you feel the need to be right all the times and find compulsion in you to correct others? No one is running against you in your political arena from this forum.

We must try to live and breath forgiveness as much as we can.... hopefully we will never have to forgive a murderer..

Why should “we must try to live and breathe forgiveness as much as we can” when the burden lies on the forgiver? What do you mean by that? If you want to take the load off your shoulders, do not carry it to start with.

Then in the second line you contradict yourself like a true politician,” .... hopefully we will never have to forgive a murderer..”

So, choose your side. This doublespeak makes no sense.

Wow! It is a shame that you know nothing about the Sikh history. Do you know what Sikhs do during the martyrdom day of Guru Arjan Dev? Please study it.

Also study what the family of Balbir Singh Sodhi, who was murdered after 9-11 did when the murderer was given the death sentence. Along with this, take a look at this thread about what is happening in Wisconsin after the horrible murders: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/united-states/41282-after-sikh-temple-attack-former-white.html

but if i ever find myself in that situation hopefully by then God has given me the strength to do this..

So, you admit that at this time you have no forgiveness in case someone dear to you is murdered. Thanks for the confession. A nice political gesture.

in the meantime, surely we can try to forgive those petty things that occur over and over in every day life

Here is one more contradiction from your previous proclamation. Which side are you on as a person?

... i see it daily in my life...my wife holds grudges with so many people...i see it draining her of her Amrit and focus in life over petty little things..

.

It shows that you do not have very high regards for your spouse which is a shame. She is always wrong, “my wife holds grudges with so many people“ according to you.

As you talk so often about Simran and Meditation and you admit quite often that it has made you a better person, if it has,then why has she not been able to pick it up?

Have your daily Simran and Meditation taught you to see this side of your wife and talk about it in an open forum? Is this the lesson you have learnt from daily chanting?

How is Amrit drained? Did the cork pop out of the champagne bubbly of Amrit that it got drained?

Once again, please do not take me wrong. I am not trying to mock you but I am truly bewildered at your attitude and the same shows in almost all of your posts.

the best thing i can do is show her the positive effects of forgiving, hopefully she sees the peace that comes with it..

It is all about you. Isn’t it? Your own behaviour gained through Simran and Meditation that you often talk about should self-manifest themselves to her so you do not have to show her anything.

You also picked and chose a couple of lines from the shabad to prove your sermon about forgiveness which is a shame because as mentioned by Spnadmin ji, it distorts the true message of the whole shabad and Gurbani should be used as a tool not as a weapon, to prove one's point.

Harry Ji is right. Forgiveness is an Abrahamic upty idea which is laced with me-ism. It is all to do with self-centeredness of the one. Nothing more.

So, once again; are you a politician? Labour or Tory?

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[chazSingh]

Tejwant Singh;189855]Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please do not take this as an offence but I would like to ask if you are/were a politician.

Definately not a politician

Your posts have that thing that the politician claims to have of “me-ism pride”.

I took a decision a while back to give opinions based more on my actual experience rather than mostly speculative opinions...i guess in that sense they will come across as me-ism...but not intended so.

Who is talking about murdering? Only one poster said that but you in your mind made a decision that your whole audience is talking about it hence they all need to be corrected.

I should have made it more clear ji... this is often examples that posters (not all) have used in past forums (not just this one) that i have read...and one such poster on this forum (i think without tracking back and looking).

As I said before, Forgiveness exists only in the mind of the forgiver, and therefore requires no "acceptance".

I agree, please state where i have stated otherwise

Forgiving or not is your own burden, for your own good. It has nothing to do with the person/s you are trying to forgive. If you want to carry this burden, then so be it. Talking to others about forgiveness is nothing but a political stunt.

Again i agree...but if forgiveness is for each individual to lighten their load, and a lot is born out of carrying this load...mental fatigue, depression, anger, hate, revenge, bitterness..then what is wrong in talking about forgiveness?

Here you go again. What do you understand about the meaning of Amrit as per Gurbani.

Just a personal thing before my words get disected...sometimes i like to think of Amrit as life energy...often life events leave a person drained and exhausted mentally and spiritually because the effects of which you can feel deep within your heart...so i sometimes refer to this feeling of being 'drained' as losing Amrit....just a personal thing...appologies

This is exactly what I mean by “Sermon from the Political Mount”. Who are you addressing to? What is the idea behind it? What are your intentions? Why do you feel the need to be right all the times and find compulsion in you to correct others? No one is running against you in your political arena from this forum.

The topic of forgiveness came up in the Thread..so being a forum i wrote a few things about it...why do you feel the need to disect my posts and post a reply? i'm guessing because this is a forum and you're free to do so...

Why should “we must try to live and breathe forgiveness as much as we can” when the burden lies on the forgiver? What do you mean by that? If you want to take the load off your shoulders, do not carry it to start with.

Yes the burden lies on the forgiver...where have i stated otherwise. by not carrying the burden i guess you have liberated yourself from a perticular experience...but then we only have to look around in family, friends, social circle, news...to see that often people walk around with this 'burden' and other things are BORN from it...revenge, hate, anger, depression etc...so what is wrong with disussing it?

Then in the second line you contradict yourself like a true politician,” .... hopefully we will never have to forgive a murderer..”

I feel like you are disecting my words no one knows how they will react when such an event takes place...if ever a day, i pray i can react with many of the attributes spoken of in Gurbani...

Wow! It is a shame that you know nothing about the Sikh history. Do you know what Sikhs do during the martyrdom day of Guru Arjan Dev? Please study it.

Also study what the family of Balbir Singh Sodhi, who was murdered after 9-11 did when the murderer was given the death sentence. Along with this, take a look at this thread about what is happening in Wisconsin after the horrible murders: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/united-states/41282-after-sikh-temple-attack-former-white.html

Thank you ji for the examples...i will take some time out to look read these...always a blessing to get good pointers like this...waheguru.

It shows that you do not have very high regards for your spouse which is a shame. She is always wrong, “my wife holds grudges with so many people“ according to you.

A very bold statement...my wife is a true blessing in my life...and she is often right...i've learnt a lot from her how do you come up with such statements from a single example i have given of my life with my wife ??
such a strange comment to make...very strange.

As you talk so often about Simran and Meditation and you admit quite often that it has made you a better person, if it has,then why has she not been able to pick it up?

Who said she hasn't? you are coming to your own conclusions...i gave one example in my post...My wifes complete character is not based on that one example...far from it..

Have your daily Simran and Meditation taught you see this side of your wife and talk about it in an open forum? Is this the lesson you have learnt from daily chanting?

My wife acknowledges this aspect of her...and she knows it affects her ... i.e. carrying the burden of lifes events as you beautifully put...I have no problem with sharing something if i believe someone somewhere may take something from.

You seem to be also making up your own conclusions about the terms mediation and referring to it as Chanting...again ji, you have no idea what i do or how i do it, or how it effects me, nor if i experience Waheguru through it. Thats is for another topic
My Simran is helping me with many of my deficiencies...so i am learning ever moment, every day...until the lights turn out

Once again, please do not take me wrong. I am not trying to mock you but I am truly bewildered at your attitude and the same shows in almost all of your posts.

This is a forum after all... i try to express myself through it...maybe my style of writing will change further...

It is all about you. Isn’t it? Your own behaviour gained through Simran and Meditation that you often talk about should self-manifest themselves to her so you do not have to show her anything.

Seems you have an issue with a lot of my reference of Simran and Meditation...I continue to do it because it helps me and i feel very close to god through it...but as a human being i'm sure i'll continue to make mistakes a long the way

You also picked and chose a couple of lines from the shabad to prove your sermon about forgiveness which is a shame because as mentioned by Spnadmin ji, it distorts the true message of the whole shabad and Gurbani should be used as a tool not as a weapon, to prove one's point.

appologies ji, This is often as a result of limited time during work hours where i try to post quickly...its my mistake, and i know i should pay so much more time and effort when quoting gurbani...i will try to remedy this...thanks for highlighting ji.

Harry Ji is right. Forgiveness is an Abrahamic upty idea which is laced with me-ism. It is all to do with self-centeredness of the one. Nothing more.

We should start a thread about this...

So, once again; are you a politician? Labour or Tory?

A sikh, who has an Ego, elements of anger, lust, greed, attachment...who often calls out to God to assist in overcoming them.


God Bless Ji,

 

[spnadmin]

chazSingh ji

I understand the concern Tejwant ji is expressing. I share his reaction.

There are metaphors that are beside the point, such as the comment on amrit.

ample petty opportunities to retain your inner Amrit

How does one keep amrit corked or let it loose?

The net effect is the feeling that preaching is going on regardless of topic and context of discussion. We have to stop the talk to hear it. Preachers have pulpits. Every thread is not a pulpit for discussing one's personal spiritual journey, as if any or all threads are scenes in a movie where readers call out at appropriate moments,"Amen Deacon, Amen!"

p/s I am coming back to further clarify why some readers have the feeling that we are hearing a political speech. A conversation is on-going, and suddenly it is interrupted with a message that is connected to the discussion only by virtue of your spiritual reactions. The response of some of us is truly -- am I supposed to rally and cheer? Then how do we get back to where we were at that point?

I do repeat what I have said elsewhere. When off-topic it will be deleted.

 

[chazSingh]

chazSingh ji

I understand the concern Tejwant ji is expressing. I share his reaction.

There are metaphors that are beside the point, such as the comment on amrit.
How does one keep amrit corked or let it loose?

The net effect is the feeling that preaching is going on regardless of topic and context of discussion. We have to stop the talk to hear it. Preachers have pulpits. Every thread is not a pulpit for discussing one's personal spiritual journey, as if any or all threads are scenes in a movie where readers call out at appropriate moments,"Amen Deacon, Amen!"

p/s I am coming back to further clarify why some readers have the feeling that we are hearing a political speech. A conversation is on-going, and suddenly it is interrupted with a message that is connected to the discussion only by virtue of your spiritual reactions. The response of some of us is truly -- am I supposed to rally and cheer? Then how do we get back to where we were at that point?

I do repeat what I have said elsewhere. When off-topic it will be deleted.

Satnaam Admin ji,

i appologise if some of my posts come across as preaching...was not intended in that way.

the mention of forgiving came up a couple of posts prior to me mentioning it...i agree these topics can very quickly come of the rails, and i didnt help

also ji, whilst i love reading Respected Tejwant Ji's messages and in no way took his message to me in the wrong way...i think it's completely not necessary nor appropriate to make comments about someones relationship with their partner based on an example i chose to share with the sangat...very inapropriate for a public forum.

I also haven't mentioned anything about my spirituality or spiritual path in my messages on this thread...nor mention of Simran, meditation...yet is has been used to somehow imply it's non-effectiveness based on judgement of my relationship with my wife...which completely has nothing to do with this thread

On a happy note ji, with good intentions for the continuation of this thread, lets get back to topic...

God Bless all Ji.

 

[findingmyway]

also ji, whilst i love reading Respected Tejwant Ji's messages and in no way took his message to me in the wrong way...i think it's completely not necessary nor appropriate to make comments about someones relationship with their partner based on an example i chose to share with the sangat...very inapropriate for a public forum.

Chaz Veerji,
Forgive my interruption here. I must admit I came to the same conclusions as Tejwant ji about your relationship with your wife and I apologise if it was wrong. The reason for this is that you have spoken very negatively about her on several threads in recent months. She has been used by you to demonstrate a negative point quite a few times. I am not attacking or criticising you, merely pointing it out so that it does not happen again. It pleases me to read about her good qualities above too

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I apologise to cause you any discomfort. I am sorry for prejudging you as you said below you are not a politician.

However, the plot thickens a bit with the help of a few key strokes on any computer.

I did ask you the following question:

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please do not take this as an offence but I would like to ask if you are/were a politician.

Your response:

Definately not a politician

By the way, is this you in the picture and also a name Chaz Singh,Plymouth councillor is mentioned in the 3 articles, (there are a lot more), who is running as a Labour MP Candidate from Plymouth, UK?

Are you a Plymouth councillor and running to become MP? If you are, then I must congratulate you because I do not know if there is any turbaned Sikh as an MP. I am very proud of you. Good Luck! I have been to Plymouth many times. It is a great coastal city.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plymouth councillor Chaz Singh hopes to stand as MP at next election

By: SAM BLACKLEDGE

PLYMOUTH, UK (May 8, 2013)—Plymouth councillor Chaz Singh has announced his intention to stand as an MP.

Mr Singh, who is currently councillor for Drake ward, hopes to stand as Labour candidate in Plymouth Sutton and Devonport at the next general election.

​The seat is currently held by Conservative MP Oliver Colvile, who was elected in May 2010.

Mr Singh was elected as a councillor in 2011 and served as Deputy Lord Mayor in 2012-13. His four-year term will come to an end in 2015, in time for the next election.

In a statement on Facebook, Mr Singh wrote: “I’m standing to be Labour’s candidate in Plymouth Sutton and Devonport. Plymouth is where I work, rest and play since 2002. This will be the first time I’ll be standing as prospective parlimentary candidate.”

Originally published by plymouthherald.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chaz Singh First Sikh Deputy Lord Mayor of Plymouth

Plymouth, UK (July 17, 2012)—Councillor Chaz Singh in March was chosen to serve as the Deputy Lord Mayor of Plymouth. Singh, who was sworn in May, was chosen for the position by Lord Mayor Mike Wright.

Singh’s wife Saranjit Kaur will be taking up the role of Deputy Lady Mayoress.

It has been an eventful year for Singh, who became the city’s first Sikh councillor when he was elected to represent Drake ward in 2011.

Singh, who was born and raised in Birmingham, moved to Plymouth in 2002 to run a business and in the last decade, has been actively involved in promoting the city and working in the community. He is a member of FATA HE, an organisation which was established to redress the social and economical inequalities faced by Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) communities in Plymouth.

Plymouth has received bad press in the past 12 months with a number of reported racist attacks on the increase, but Singh hopes his role in public life can help the city become one of tolerance.

Originally published by obv.org.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sikh and Ye Shall Find – a story of success on the Community Channel

Sikh and Ye Shall Find, a documentary about Chaz Singh's rise to become Plymouth's first Sikh Deputy Lord Mayor, is on the Community Channel

By PRSD, on Saturday, July 13, 2013

Sikh and Ye Shall Find, the film following British-born Sikh Chaz Singh on his journey from shopkeeper to councillor to Deputy Lord Mayor of Plymouth, is getting a Community Channel screening on Saturday, July 13 at 8pm.

This film will also provide an insight into Chaz’s thoughts on his year in office, meeting him just after he stood down from the post to campaign for a position of Prospective Parliamentary Candidate in Plymouth.

The 30-minute documentary was made by Bill Sheikh of Metal Snare Productions, at Plymouth University.

The pair first met through a university project, and got chatting about the work Chaz does.

Chaz said: “Bill asked if he could make a film based around where I had come from and where I am now.

“It was really enjoyable to make – it was a very relaxed interview with snippets of video from the last few years – along with a few personal bits about where I have come from.

“What was a simple project about the success of an individual in Plymouth will now be beamed across the country.

“When I was elected it was the first time Plymouth had a Sikh councillor and a Sikh Deputy Lord Mayor.

“If that had gone unnoticed it would have been a shame.

“There is a mention in the film about Plymouth being more inclusive and here we are celebrating success and discussing these issues.”

Sikh and Ye Shall Find has been screened throughout Plymouth, and on the Sikh Channel, but the screening on the Community Channel further spreads the word of what Chaz has achieved.

http://www.peoplesrepublicofsouthde...-a-story-of-success-on-the-community-channel/

 

[chazSingh]

Chaz Veerji,
Forgive my interruption here. I must admit I came to the same conclusions as Tejwant ji about your relationship with your wife and I apologise if it was wrong. The reason for this is that you have spoken very negatively about her on several threads in recent months. She has been used by you to demonstrate a negative point quite a few times. I am not attacking or criticising you, merely pointing it out so that it does not happen again. It pleases me to read about her good qualities above too

Finding my way Ji,

thanks for the post.

I love my wife..we've had some ups and downs...but she has bought so much out of me that would never have blossomed if she didnt come into my life...i hope i've also had a positive effect on her ... thats what marriage is for isnt it?

God bless ji

 

[chazSingh]

By the way, is this you in the picture and also a name Chaz Singh,Plymouth councillor is mentioned in the 3 articles, (there are a lot more), who is running as a Labour MP Candidate from Plymouth, UK?

Are you a Plymouth councillor and running to become MP? If you are, then I must congratulate you because I do not know if there is any turbaned Sikh as an MP. I am very proud of you. Good Luck! I have been to Plymouth many times. It is a great coastal city.

Ha!

Tejwant JI,

This is brilliant...bought a smile to my face.
I'm definately not this person, although i love the turban design...pretty amazing...will have to send him a goodluck message!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ha!

Tejwant JI,

This is brilliant...bought a smile to my face.
I'm definately not this person, although i love the turban design...pretty amazing...will have to send him a goodluck message!

Just out of curiousity, where in the UK are you from?

Thanks

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Let's try to be honest here.

You write:

also ji, whilst i love reading Respected Tejwant Ji's messages and in no way took his message to me in the wrong way...i think it's completely not necessary nor appropriate to make comments about someones relationship with their partner based on an example i chose to share with the sangat...very inapropriate for a public forum.

You are distorting the truth which is a shame. I did not say anything about your relationship with your wife. You are not being honest here, sad to say. The fact is that it is you who said not so good things about her in this public forum, not me.

Here is what you said about your wife:

daily in my life...my wife holds grudges with so many people...i see it draining her of her Amrit and focus in life over petty little things...the best thing i can do is show her the positive effects of forgiving, hopefully she sees the peace that comes with it...

A Sikh has to take responsibility of his/her action rather than blaming others which is uncalled for.

 

[chazSingh]

Respected Tejwant Ji,

Because the topic of forgiveness came into the thread...I chose to give an example of the negative effects of not letting go of the burdens of sometimes very petty life events...

So as an example i 'Chose' to mention how not letting go of this burden effects my Wife, how it effects her energy levels....How is that a negative comment against my wife? I know it effects her...She also acknowledges that it affects her, and she is trying to lighten the burden of these events for her own benefit...and it is because we have sat down, discussed and worked through this together that this has been possible...because of our love for each other....

i also wrote "the best thing i can do is show her the positive effects of forgiving" .. i wrote this because she knows of events that have occurred in my own life and i have chosen "for myself" to not hold any negative thoughts about those events...and she often acknowledges it's positive effects


And you replied with

"It shows that you do not have very high regards for your spouse which is a shame. She is always wrong,"

So i ask you in a nice polite way ji .... how by giving this example have i implied that i don't hold my wife in High regard? and how have i stated that she is always Wrong?

Please enlighten...and for the benefit of this thread ji, a private message would be good ...

Thank you ji

God Bless

 

[spnadmin]

OK It is really time now for the thread to go back on track. Tejwant ji has the op to reply to chazSingh ji's questions and then we move ahead.