Islam Wiki Islam?

[kaur-1]

Ali Sina and his site has both good and bad points. He is bent on proving Islam and Terrorism synonymous - that's the bad point.

He also wants to eradicate islam.

Quote from their home page:
"
Faith Freedom International is a grassroots movement of those who asked prohibited questions and on that account lost their faith. We came to see that Islam is a hoax. It is an imperialistic ideology, disguised as religion, invented by Muhammad for his own personal gains. With a promise of a carnal and orgiastic paradise (just for men) and threat of hell he goaded his foolhardy followers to raid and slay innocent people under the pretext that they were infidels. He and his merry band of terrorists looted their villages and cities, raped the women, and enslaved all who were not killed outright. To this day, Muslim terrorists are following the footsteps of their prophet who bragged, "I have been made victorious with terror" [Bukhari 4.52.220]. No other cause is responsible for more deaths than Islam. Isn't this alone proof enough that Islam is evil? Our goal is to expose this religion of terror and warn of its danger. We also want to help Muslims see the stupidity of it, end their "us" vs. "them" ethos and embrace the human race in amity. No one is their enemy; it is they who are the enemy to everyone else. We strive for the unity of mankind through the elimination of Islam, the most insidious doctrine of hate. Humanity is one; let not charlatans like Hitler and Muhammad divide us with their big lies.
Islam can't be reformed, but it can be eradicated. It can't be molded, but it can be smashed. It is rigid, but brittle. That is why Muhammad could not tolerate criticism of it. To eradicate Islam, all we have to do is tell the truth. It's that simple. This was not possible before, but with the help of the Internet, it is now. The asininity of this creed is so glaringly obvious that it boggles the mind. All it takes to see that is to read the Qur’an.

The truth about Islam is out. It's here on this site. With truth and reason alone we can demolish this tall tower of lies. If you help spread the truth we can bring this house of cards down sooner than anyone can imagine. With truth, the decent Muslims will leave Islam and with each Muslim that leaves, we gain a new soldier in our fight against terrorism. We are growing exponentially. The days of Islam are numbered and better days are ahead. Many of us will see that day. Meanwhile, we may have to go through dreadful times.A storm is approaching. It will wipe out Islam, but it will also destroy millions of lives in its path. We can avoid this Armageddon if we stop lying. Islam is not a religion of peace. It is evil. It is a dangerous cult of death and terror. The proof is here. Let us tell the truth. Save lives, not lies. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. Do something and save the world. To become a soldier in this army of light, all you have to do is find and face the truth (this site exists to help). Let the truth reach the world. It will do its work. "

Talking about malaysia, this is an interesting read : http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/Asri.htm

 

[Satjot Kaur]

please don't waste your energy on being concerned with me, i'm certainly not worth the energy.

You are worth the energy. You have forgotten, but you are a piece of God. All pieces of God are worth the energy.

i never said anything "just isn't so". i said that maybe things aren't always as anti-islamic websites would have you believe.

I apologize for the stating of my interpretation of your meaning as if it were directly stated as such. I did not mean to misquote you. Indeed, any anti-whatever gives a slanted view. I do not believe they are trying to misdirect anyone, but only to communicate what they see as true. Yes, just talking about the bad of an individual or a group would seem prejudicial, but websites are not talking - they are websites. One can just as easily click over to another website and see all the positives.

I'm not sure that we are discussing the same topic. I am discussing the merits of being fully informed, and you are pointing out the injustice of misinformation or incomplete information. We are both right, but it feels like we disagree because we are talking about different things.

Aw, man - had to add another link with examples of American and Canadian men holding the same view that one might suspect people just make up to make a group look bad. These are actual men. It isn't just Islamic men - and it is an actual opinion.
GENIUS FORUMS • View topic - Sex and Guilt

Holy cow:End of Men

and of course Men Are Better Than Women, by **** Masterson

 

[Randip Singh]

Hello everyone.

I didn't start this post to start a fight.

I wanted to compare this maybe to Sikhiwiki which is the complete opposite to this in that it is autocratically run by two Sant Mat groups (GNSJJ and 3HO), and people are often edited out of posting at sikhiwiki.

Freedom of Speech with no Responsibilty (Wiki Islam) Vs Autocracy which curbs personal Resonsibility (sikhiwiki)

Which is worse?

 

[kaur-1]

I beg to differ. One is run by ex-muslims etc and the other ie Sikhiwiki is run by Sikhs.

Stop complaining and lets all work together.

 

[carolineislands]

i never said that so-called islamic nations practice good government.

and i don't know how that makes it ok to lie about a religion to make it look bad.

Is it okay to tell the truth about a religion if that truth in itself makes it "look bad?"

I think it's dangerous to candy coat the dangerous parts of Islam. There are things that are woven into the fabric of that religion and can't be reformed because the nature of the religion is to keep to the letter and never change a single detail.

I agree that we should not lie about a religion to make it look bad. On the other hand, should we cover up facts about the religion that reveal dogma that continued in practice today that profoundly harms people? I am thinking of polygany, male and female genital mutilation, execution, dismemberment, oppression of women... things like that.

Should we pretend those things don't exist so that we can seem politically correct? Or should we speak to injustice when ever we see it?

The laws of islamic countries are mainly based on islamic laws and well supported my majority.No gov can put laws which are not supported by people .so common muslim
is also a culprit

Supported by men -- women can't vote. In Saudi Arabia, they can't drive either. Many women suffer from rickets (vitamin D deficiency) because their entire body is shielded from sunlight by the burqa, which is forced.

The Quran does outline rules for men to beat their wives and they still do. These are not lies -- why should we pretend these things are not going on?

If Sikhs were doing these things, I'd say we should call them out on it. Same goes for everybody else.

Abuse is wrong -- period. And if your religion commands it, then your religion needs to change.

How can that equation be worked any other way?

Hello everyone.

I didn't start this post to start a fight.

I wanted to compare this maybe to Sikhiwiki which is the complete opposite to this in that it is autocratically run by two Sant Mat groups (GNSJJ and 3HO), and people are often edited out of posting at sikhiwiki.

Freedom of Speech with no Responsibilty (Wiki Islam) Vs Autocracy which curbs personal Resonsibility (sikhiwiki)

Which is worse?

Yes, you have a point. That is unfair.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Is it okay to tell the truth about a religion if that truth in itself makes it "look bad?"

I think it's dangerous to candy coat the dangerous parts of Islam. There are things that are woven into the fabric of that religion and can't be reformed because the nature of the religion is to keep to the letter and never change a single detail.

I agree that we should not lie about a religion to make it look bad. On the other hand, should we cover up facts about the religion that reveal dogma that continued in practice today that profoundly harms people? I am thinking of polygany, male and female genital mutilation, execution, dismemberment, oppression of women... things like that.

Should we pretend those things don't exist so that we can seem politically correct? Or should we speak to injustice when ever we see it?

i'm not particularly interested in political correctness... i think you're confusing culture with religion. no where in the koran does it speak of genital mutilation (unless you consider circumcision mutilation, in which case you better talk to the american medical association who recommends it for every newborn male child!). and if you look at the koran (not hadith, most of which are not proven to be accurate), it's not terribly discriminatory to women either. it does proscribe separate gender roles for men and women, but that includes far more protection for women than christianity, judaism, hinduism, or pretty much any other religion that preceded it. honestly, most of the "bad" things about islam are bad things about the cultures where islam is practiced, or are from inauthentic hadith.

just like sikhism does not allow drinking, killing of female children, dowry, etc... yet all of these things are serious problems among many sikhs. would it be fair if a website went up calling sikhi a faith of murderers and addicts? no, i think we'd be pretty upset about that.

for me, this isn't about political correctness. it's about justice. i became a sikh because i believe in honesty, justice, fairness, equality, and religious tolerance. supporting a site like "faithfreedom" is against most of what i believe in.

let's help the oppressed and not condemn whatever religion they may come from.

 

[carolineislands]

What if IS the religion they come from that is oppressing them?

I also believe in religious freedom, but not when it subjugates, abuses, and oppresses people. I have read several passages in the Quran that state the very practices we see today. And you can't pretend the Hadiths are not part of Islam - they are just as much a part of the practice of Islam as the Quran.

For instance, the Quran never specifies how a Muslim should pray, how many times a day or in what position. All of that came from Hadith. Now would you say that the salat is not part of Islam?

The Quran also states that menses is an acceptable age for girls to be taken in marriage and Mohammad consummated a marriage to a girl of 9 years old. It is legal to take girls as young as 9 in Saudi Arabia and Iran -- Islamic states. That's not culture, it's following the example of Mohammad.

Be careful. Religious tolerance is one thing -- blinding yourself to injustice and the inherent harmfulness of certain beliefs and actions is quite another.

We can be fair and also discerning. I've heard many of the defenses and I know where you are coming from. I am not suggesting that anyone support any site or not. I should have been more clear.

What I am suggesting is that we be careful about what we believe from either side -- from the sites like you mention AND from the wily Imams that try to justify the unjust and sugar coat beliefs that play themselves out in practices that are oppressive at best, criminal at worst.

Islam as is stands is dangerous. That's not to say it lacks merit. It IS to say IT MUST be reformed. And, as difficult as it is, anyone who believes in basic human rights really should be speaking out.

Not raging, as the website must be, but speaking out against the injustice and calling for reform and change in the religion AND it's practices.

 

[Archived_Member1]

not all muslims follow hadith. only sunni and wahabi follow it religiously. most shia do not, and neither do sufis.

some info on hadith:
Hadith and Sunna in Islam (Submission). Best source for information about Islam on the Internet Hadith and Sunna in Islam (Submission)- Ahadith-Sunnah-Quran, Qur'an, Koran-information-laws-legal-justice-translation-English Allah-God-Muhammed-Mohammed

misconceptions about women in islam, with koranic proofs:
Women in Islam-Marriage, Divorce, Childbirth, abortion,rights, politics-Marriage, Divorce, Childbirth, abortion,rights, politics-Best resource for Women issues in Islam (Submission ) on the Internet. Women in Islam-Submission-Muhammed-Allah-Qur'an-Ko


the real perspective on terrorism:
Terrorism and Islam-Jihad-Human rights in Islam-The war system in  Islam-Islamic points of view-Islam- (Submission)-Your best source for Islam on the Intenet. Happiness is submission to God.-Islam-Submission-Introduction,definition, discussion, debat

seriously, you're still confusing islam with some of those who practice it. not all muslims are bad people. the religion itself does not create bad people.

if one follows judaism or the christian old testament, it's FAR more brutal to women and proscribes horrible punishments (stoning, dismemberment, beating, etc). but people don't accuse jews and christians of being bad because their holy book contains some bad things...

Mian Mir was a Muslim, he laid the corner stone for Darbar Sahib. do you think Guru Sahib would have allowed an evil man to be part of our most holy shrine?

we have the bani of muslims in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. if their words are true enough to be gurbani, how can they be evil?

please don't be brainwashed by the propaganda on western television or posted on sites like the one in question.

sikhs respect every faith. we do not condemn any religion as bad.

we remember this daily in Sohila:

ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ raag aasaa mehlaa 1.
Raag Aasaa, First Mehl:



ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥ chhi-a ghar chhi-a gur chhi-a updays.
There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings.



ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥ gur gur ayko vays anayk. ((1))
But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms. ((1))



ਬਾਬਾ ਜੈ ਘਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ baabaa jai ghar kartay keerat ho-ay.
O Baba: that system in which the Praises of the Creator are sung -



ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਤੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ so ghar raakh vadaa-ee to-ay. ((1)) rahaa-o.
follow that system; in it rests true greatness. ((1)(Pause))



ਵਿਸੁਏ ਚਸਿਆ ਘੜੀਆ ਪਹਰਾ ਥਿਤੀ ਵਾਰੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਹੋਆ ॥ visu-ay chasi-aa gharhee-aa pahraa thitee vaaree maahu ho-aa.
The seconds, minutes and hours, days, weeks and months,



ਸੂਰਜੁ ਏਕੋ ਰੁਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ॥ sooraj ayko rut anayk.
and the various seasons originate from the one sun;



ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੇ ਕੇਤੇ ਵੇਸ ॥੨॥੨॥ naanak kartay kay kaytay vays. ((2)(2))
O Nanak, in just the same way, the many forms originate from the Creator. ((2)(2))

 

[carolineislands]

not all muslims follow hadith. only sunni and wahabi follow it religiously. most shia do not, and neither do sufis.

some info on hadith:
Hadith and Sunna in Islam (Submission). Best source for information about Islam on the Internet Hadith and Sunna in Islam (Submission)- Ahadith-Sunnah-Quran, Qur'an, Koran-information-laws-legal-justice-translation-English Allah-God-Muhammed-Mohammed

Thank you for these links.

If one follows judaism or the christian old testament, it's FAR more brutal to women and proscribes horrible punishments (stoning, dismemberment, beating, etc). but people don't accuse jews and christians of being bad because their holy book contains some bad things...

That's because the religions have reformed and taken stances AGAINST these old practices. Some Muslims are also working towards reform and that's a good thing. Unfortunately they are a very small minority.

Mian Mir was a Muslim, he laid the corner stone for Darbar Sahib. do you think Guru Sahib would have allowed an evil man to be part of our most holy shrine?

I did not say all Muslims were evil. If I thought that I wouldn't take the risk of speaking out for the rights of the Muslims that are oppressed within their own religion.

please don't be brainwashed by the propaganda on western television or posted on sites like the one in question.

Lets both try to find the middle ground and not be brainwashed by either side. I respect all faiths but I do not respect all practices, such as the ones that are criminal, even if they are part and parcel of a faith. In that case I will speak out against the injustice and call for the rights of the people being oppressed (and worse). I will not ignore the suffering of Muslims all over the world, especially women and children who are so oppressed and exploited. I can't ignore them. Respecting a faith doesn't mean you have to ignore the cries of the persecuted and abused because their abuse stems from dogmas coming from within that faith. Whether or not another religion had similar practices in the past doesn't justify the continuation of them if they are criminal practices against human beings.

ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ raag aasaa mehlaa 1.
Raag Aasaa, First Mehl:



ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥ chhi-a ghar chhi-a gur chhi-a updays.
There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings.



ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥ gur gur ayko vays anayk. ((1))
But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms. ((1))



ਬਾਬਾ ਜੈ ਘਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ baabaa jai ghar kartay keerat ho-ay.
O Baba: that system in which the Praises of the Creator are sung -



ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਤੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ so ghar raakh vadaa-ee to-ay. ((1)) rahaa-o.
follow that system; in it rests true greatness. ((1)(Pause))



ਵਿਸੁਏ ਚਸਿਆ ਘੜੀਆ ਪਹਰਾ ਥਿਤੀ ਵਾਰੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਹੋਆ ॥ visu-ay chasi-aa gharhee-aa pahraa thitee vaaree maahu ho-aa.
The seconds, minutes and hours, days, weeks and months,



ਸੂਰਜੁ ਏਕੋ ਰੁਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ॥ sooraj ayko rut anayk.
and the various seasons originate from the one sun;



ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੇ ਕੇਤੇ ਵੇਸ ॥੨॥੨॥ naanak kartay kay kaytay vays. ((2)(2))
O Nanak, in just the same way, the many forms originate from the Creator. ((2)(2))

Very beautiful. Thank you.

What do the Sikh scriptures say about defending the rights of the oppressed?

 

[Astroboy]

As a debate the going is good.

But I would like to add some pointers for being reasonable when applying your facts.

For example, if we were to compare age of married girls (70 years ago in Pakistan), we would find them married at the age of 12 to 14 year. And their spouses would be like 10 years older. This fact was also prevalent amongst Sikhs before Indo-Pak partition.

 

[Archived_Member1]

As a debate the going is good.

But I would like to add some pointers of being reasonable when applying the facts.

For example, if we were to compare age of married girls (70 years ago in Pakistan), we would find them married at the age of 12 to 14 year. And their spouses would be like 10 years older. This fact was also prevalent amongst Sikhs before Indo-Pak partition.

wasn't marriage at a very young age common all across south asian society until very recently? i believe MK Gandhi was married at the age of 13, i think his wife was 11?

this illustrates an excellent point. do we condemn hindus for child marriage? no, though obviously it was practiced widely.

instead, we take a story of aiesha, which doesn't clearly state her age, and listening to the islam bashers, we accuse them of being horrible people for encouraging child marriage.

it was common in many parts of the world in many cultures. people hardly lived past 40, of course they would marry young. and how come we condemn the leader of one faith for it yet we call another practitioner of the same "sin" as "mahatma"?

 

[Astroboy]

Jasleen ji,

Your points are really good. Keep it up.

Caroline ji,

You have good debating skills. We can all learn alot from you. You are no novice, the way I see it. More like a 'tough master' but you know something, your strong character reflects in the choice of your words. And that brings out the best from everyone around you.

Good going both of you.

 

[Archived_Member1]

That's because the religions have reformed and taken stances AGAINST these old practices. Some Muslims are also working towards reform and that's a good thing. Unfortunately they are a very small minority.

can you give me some numbers? percentages? comparisons? i know a LOT of american christian women who are oppressed in the name of their religion. and most of them don't even realize it. i certainly wouldn't call the evangelic protestant movements as "reformed".

I did not say all Muslims were evil. If I thought that I wouldn't take the risk of speaking out for the rights of the Muslims that are oppressed within their own religion.

good to hear. however, "faithfreedom", and the website in question DO seem to paint all muslims as evil, so when you defend them, it's easy to assume you agree with them. sorry about that.

Lets both try to find the middle ground and not be brainwashed by either side. I respect all faiths but I do not respect all practices, such as the ones that are criminal, even if they are part and parcel of a faith. In that case I will speak out against the injustice and call for the rights of the people being oppressed (and worse). I will not ignore the suffering of Muslims all over the world, especially women and children who are so oppressed and exploited. I can't ignore them. Respecting a faith doesn't mean you have to ignore the cries of the persecuted and abused because their abuse stems from dogmas coming from within that faith. Whether or not another religion had similar practices in the past doesn't justify the continuation of them if they are criminal practices against human beings.

i would never expect anyone to ignore the suffering of others. and i think it is wonderful that you're helping abused and persecuted people. but after a lot of study of islam, i honestly do not think it's the religion that's bad. i think it's the cultures of many of the places where islam is dominant which cause problems. that and some very questionable hadith, which i already explained my viewpoint on.

i'm certainly not brainwashed... i know there is evil in every culture, in every faith, in every country. but i cannot paint an entire religion as bad.

What do the Sikh scriptures say about defending the rights of the oppressed?

ਸਲੋਕ ਕਬੀਰ ॥
Salok Kabīr.
Shalok, Kabeer:

ਗਗਨ ਦਮਾਮਾ ਬਾਜਿਓ ਪਰਿਓ ਨੀਸਾਨੈ ਘਾਉ ॥
Gagan ḏamāmā bāji*o pari*o nīsānai gẖā*o.
The battle-drum beats in the sky of the mind; aim is taken, and the wound is inflicted.

ਖੇਤੁ ਜੁ ਮਾਂਡਿਓ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਬ ਜੂਝਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਉ ॥੧॥
Kẖėṯ jo māʼndi*o sūrmā ab jūjẖan ko ḏā*o. ||1||
The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to fight! ||1||

ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥
Sūrā so pahicẖānī*ai jo larai ḏīn kė hėṯ.
He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.

ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ ॥੨॥੨॥
Purjā purjā kat marai kabhū na cẖẖādai kẖėṯ. ||2||2||
He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle. ||2||2||

SGGS p. 1105

 

[Astroboy]

Jasleen ji,

I wonder why only you and caroline are left in this discussion. What happened to the others ?

 

[kds1980]

Here is the shabad where kabir ji is asking muslims stop to oppress

Āsā.
Aasaa:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਕਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਈ ॥
हिंदू तुरक कहा ते आए किनि एह राह चलाई ॥
Hinḏū ṯurak kahā ṯė āė kin ėh rāh cẖalāī.
Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?

ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਕਵਾਦੇ ਭਿਸਤ ਦੋਜਕ ਕਿਨਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
दिल महि सोचि बिचारि कवादे भिसत दोजक किनि पाई ॥१॥
Ḏil meh socẖ bicẖār kavāḏė bẖisaṯ ḏojak kin pāī. ||1||
Think of this, and contemplate it within your mind, O men of evil intentions. Who will go to heaven and hell? ||1||

ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥
काजी तै कवन कतेब बखानी ॥
Kājī ṯai kavan kaṯėb bakẖānī.
O Qazi, which book have you read?

ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
पड़्हत गुनत ऐसे सभ मारे किनहूं खबरि न जानी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Paṛĥaṯ gunaṯ aisė sabẖ mārė kinhūʼn kẖabar na jānī. ||1|| rahāo.
Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥
सकति सनेहु करि सुंनति करीऐ मै न बदउगा भाई ॥
Sakaṯ sanėhu kar sunaṯ karīai mai na baḏugā bẖāī.
Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
जउ रे खुदाइ मोहि तुरकु करैगा आपन ही कटि जाई ॥२॥
Jao rė kẖuḏāė mohi ṯurak karaigā āpan hī kat jāī. ||2||
If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
सुंनति कीए तुरकु जे होइगा अउरत का किआ करीऐ ॥
Sunaṯ kīė ṯurak jė hoigā auraṯ kā kiā karīai.
If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
अरध सरीरी नारि न छोडै ता ते हिंदू ही रहीऐ ॥३॥
Araḏẖ sarīrī nār na cẖẖodai ṯā ṯė hinḏū hī rahīai. ||3||
She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
छाडि कतेब रामु भजु बउरे जुलम करत है भारी ॥
Cẖẖād kaṯėb rām bẖaj baurė julam karaṯ hai bẖārī.
Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.

ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥
कबीरै पकरी टेक राम की तुरक रहे पचिहारी ॥४॥८॥
Kabīrai pakrī tėk rām kī ṯurak rahė pacẖihārī. ||4||8||
Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. |

Now caroline let me tell you One thing.Guru granth sahib is written in highest form of poetry.To really understand it you need very good knowledge of languages in which it is written.Many metaphors are also included in it so many people these days are just picking one single line to which suits them

 

[Randip Singh]

I beg to differ. One is run by ex-muslims etc and the other ie Sikhiwiki is run by Sikhs.

Stop complaining and lets all work together.

Lets work together YES! Exactly my point!

However, just because a site is run by Sikhs, it does not make it great. Also those ex-muslims seem so hell bent in attacking Islam, maybe they should take a step back and think maybe that some Muslims (Wahabism) are responsible for misinterpretations of Islam.

We have our fare share within Sikhs too.

 

[kds1980]

Randip singh ji

do you beleive that islam is misinterpretted?

 

[BhagatSingh]

how do you know those are muslims? isn't it just as likely it's people trying to make muslims look bad posting such inflammatory things? do you have any proof? it's an electronic form, right? so basically anyone can post anything they want and say they're anyone they want, right?

i'm not saying every muslim is perfect, but that site paints the entire religion as "bad", which i think it inappropriate and unfair.

do you think Farid ji beat women? Mian Mir? Bhai Mardana?

that site paints ALL muslims as evil which is simply wrong.

read the Quran Jasleen Ji. You will know, what Satjot Ji means. :wink:

 

[Archived_Member1]

read the Quran Jasleen Ji. You will know, what Satjot Ji means. :wink:

i have. i've also read a lot of articles by muslim scholars. and i agree with Randip that certain militant sects, like the wahabis, are completely misinterpreting and making a bad name for the faith.


remember that i'm a convert to sikhism. i didn't just draw a religion out of a hat... i researched everything i could get my hands on. i researched christianity, judiasm, islam, buddhism, hinduism...

and one thing i found is that at the core, all religions are good. it's the people and the cultures that make them go wrong.

Here is the shabad where kabir ji is asking muslims stop to oppress

Āsā.
Aasaa:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਕਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਈ ॥
हिंदू तुरक कहा ते आए किनि एह राह चलाई ॥
Hinḏū ṯurak kahā ṯė āė kin ėh rāh cẖalāī.
Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?

ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਕਵਾਦੇ ਭਿਸਤ ਦੋਜਕ ਕਿਨਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
दिल महि सोचि बिचारि कवादे भिसत दोजक किनि पाई ॥१॥
Ḏil meh socẖ bicẖār kavāḏė bẖisaṯ ḏojak kin pāī. ||1||
Think of this, and contemplate it within your mind, O men of evil intentions. Who will go to heaven and hell? ||1||

ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥
काजी तै कवन कतेब बखानी ॥
Kājī ṯai kavan kaṯėb bakẖānī.
O Qazi, which book have you read?

ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
पड़्हत गुनत ऐसे सभ मारे किनहूं खबरि न जानी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Paṛĥaṯ gunaṯ aisė sabẖ mārė kinhūʼn kẖabar na jānī. ||1|| rahāo.
Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥
सकति सनेहु करि सुंनति करीऐ मै न बदउगा भाई ॥
Sakaṯ sanėhu kar sunaṯ karīai mai na baḏugā bẖāī.
Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
जउ रे खुदाइ मोहि तुरकु करैगा आपन ही कटि जाई ॥२॥
Jao rė kẖuḏāė mohi ṯurak karaigā āpan hī kat jāī. ||2||
If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
सुंनति कीए तुरकु जे होइगा अउरत का किआ करीऐ ॥
Sunaṯ kīė ṯurak jė hoigā auraṯ kā kiā karīai.
If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
अरध सरीरी नारि न छोडै ता ते हिंदू ही रहीऐ ॥३॥
Araḏẖ sarīrī nār na cẖẖodai ṯā ṯė hinḏū hī rahīai. ||3||
She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
छाडि कतेब रामु भजु बउरे जुलम करत है भारी ॥
Cẖẖād kaṯėb rām bẖaj baurė julam karaṯ hai bẖārī.
Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.

ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥
कबीरै पकरी टेक राम की तुरक रहे पचिहारी ॥४॥८॥
Kabīrai pakrī tėk rām kī ṯurak rahė pacẖihārī. ||4||8||
Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. |

Now caroline let me tell you One thing.Guru granth sahib is written in highest form of poetry.To really understand it you need very good knowledge of languages in which it is written.Many metaphors are also included in it so many people these days are just picking one single line to which suits them

so in that vein, i certainly hope you're not taking th is shabad to mean that ALL muslims have "utterly failed", when obviously kabir ji would be speaking of the mughal invadors, who by any standards, were a horrible example of islam...

here's something else Guru ji says about islam:



ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
Salok mehlā 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵਣੁ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਜਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
Musalmāṇ kahāvaṇ muskal jā ho*ė ṯā musalmāṇ kahāvai.
It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਉਲਿ ਦੀਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਮਸਕਲ ਮਾਨਾ ਮਾਲੁ ਮੁਸਾਵੈ ॥
Aval a*ul ḏīn kar miṯẖā maskal mānā māl musāvai.
First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away.

ਹੋਇ ਮੁਸਲਿਮੁ ਦੀਨ ਮੁਹਾਣੈ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥
Ho*ė muslim ḏīn muhāṇai maraṇ jīvaṇ kā bẖaram cẖukẖāvai.
Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.

ਰਬ ਕੀ ਰਜਾਇ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥
Rab kī rajā*ė mannė sir upar karṯā mannė āp gavāvai.
As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit.

ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਮਿਹਰੰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
Ŧa*o Nānak sarab jī*ā mihramaṯ ho*ė ṯa musalmāṇ kahāvai. ||1||
And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. ||1||

SSGS p. 141

why sould guru ji speak so highly of a faith if it were not deserving of respect? sikhism owes much to the sufis of the time... Farid ji being a most obvious example...

 

[Satjot Kaur]

The Quran also states that menses is an acceptable age for girls to be taken in marriage and Mohammad consummated a marriage to a girl of 9 years old. It is legal to take girls as young as 9 in Saudi Arabia and Iran -- Islamic states. That's not culture, it's following the example of Mohammad.

People change/evolve as a function of God's will. Shouldn't religion change/evolve as well? The practices of a time should be respected and remembered as practices of their time, and perhaps from time to time things can be learned from the wisdom of the elders. That does not mean that we should merely follow the lead of someone who was great in his time, but we should be great in our own time.

Neither cast off the past as if it were useless, nor worship the past as if that is all there ever will be.