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Mai Harinder Kaur

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So what can be the Take Away from this topic? I think we should enumerate how and what all we can do to empower female population in Sikhi.

"A slave cannot be freed save she free herself. Neither can you enslave a free woman. The most you can do is kill her."

from R. A. Heinlein; I changed the gender.

We Kaurs must first free ourselves in our own hearts and minds. Then we can work with our dear Singhs - and most of you really are very dear - to implement the necessary changes. But the liberation has to first come from within ourselves.

Freedom must be taken; freedom given is an illusion, at best. Shall I go on, or have I made my point?

Picture by Kulpreet Singh, used with permission
 

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Naamsimiran

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Nov 20, 2011
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"A slave cannot be freed save she free herself. Neither can you enslave a free woman. The most you can do is kill her."

from R. A. Heinlein; I changed the gender.

We Kaurs must first free ourselves in our own hearts and minds. Then we can work with our dear Singhs - and most of you really are very dear - to implement the necessary changes. But the liberation has to first come from within ourselves.

Freedom must be taken; freedom given is an illusion, at best. Shall I go on, or have I made my point?

Picture by Kulpreet Singh, used with permission

Sat Nam Mai Ji

It is nice to see you on this site! A mutual friend has already introduced us. I have checked your blog and emailed you. What a great site this is!

Anyway. I also believe freedom needs to be actively taken or at least actively worked towards.

Sometimes we ourselves live under the illusion that because we are Sikh and Sikhism states that women and men have equality, that this equality exists and perhaps we are not active enough, because of this illusion.

But if we actually breakdown our culture we see that there is still a lot of inequality and even oppression. Obviously not all households are like this and not all individuals, but there is work to be done! :).

Hope you are well and even though I have not met you, I am thinking of you and you are in my prayers.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fatheh,
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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Sat Nam Mai Ji

It is nice to see you on this site! A mutual friend has already introduced us. I have checked your blog and emailed you. What a great site this is!

Anyway. I also believe freedom needs to be actively taken or at least actively worked towards.

Sometimes we ourselves live under the illusion that because we are Sikh and Sikhism states that women and men have equality, that this equality exists and perhaps we are not active enough, because of this illusion.

But if we actually breakdown our culture we see that there is still a lot of inequality and even oppression. Obviously not all households are like this and not all individuals, but there is work to be done! :).

Hope you are well and even though I have not met you, I am thinking of you and you are in my prayers.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fatheh,

Waheguru ji ka khalsa. Waheguru ji ki fateh! Welcome to SPN. welcomekaur This is a great group. Since I am physically unable to get out much, these people here are most of my Sangat.

This whole gender inequality among Sikhs is a painful problem for me in a weird sort of way. I know from my own experience how unnecessary it is and I know how it could be overcome. Unfortunately, few Sikhs of either sex are willing to take the plunge. It does involve being unconventional, a big no-no in Punjabi culture.

My Dad, brilliant and somewhat eccentric, was left to raise me after Mother decided she had better things to do with her life than to raise a girl who would probably die anyway. As the only girl and with 7 older brothers, it could have been a disaster. It wasn't. Dad decided to raise me to be the kind of woman he would have liked to marry, but couldn't find. He encouraged me to be as strong and tough as my brothers, insofar as that was possible, taking into account that I was less than half the size of the smallest. He educated me physically, intellectually, emotionally and spiritually.

Over and over like a mantra I heard: "There are millions of things society won't let you do because you're a girl/woman. There are millions of things you can't do because of personal limitations. There is exactly one thing you really can't do because you're a girl/woman." Here was always a big laugh. "You cannot father a child." To be truthful, he wasn't much into personal limitations, although he was willing to concede that I'd never be an operatic soprano, but only after the fourth voice teacher said it was hopeless. I still want to sing and I still can't carry a tune.

I was taught from the very beginning to be strong, self-reliant and self-confident. Not that the "gentle arts" were ignored. I learned cooking and sewing and housekeeping, along with culture and languages and science and anything else of mutual interest. (BTW, although there was much grumbling, my brothers could also cook and sew (at least a button) and clean the house.) Always, Mai Bhago was held up as one ideal. So were the male shaheeds. Dad saw no reason his daughter couldn't fight a battle holding her severed head in one hand and her kirpan in another.

I must make it clear that while Dad encouraged me to excel, he never belittled or humiliated me. I never felt anything except love and acceptance from him. (OK, he did get mad when I pulled his kitty's tail, but that's another story. Stupid cat!)

When the time came, all our hard work paid off and I was able to do what was required of me.

Now I realise that not all Sikh Dads can be geniuses, eccentric or otherwise, but they can all encourage their daughters to exceed the limits placed on them by society, whether Punjabi or Western.

Also most Sikh girls have mothers who can encourage them as well, instead of insisting on silly conformism. So, they ask, who will marry these strong warrior princesses? That's easy. Our strongest Singhs who want a companion to share the adventure of life with them instead of a slave to bow to them. I married young to a man I deeply loved and admired, and Ihad all the joys of traditional womanhood along with everything else.

Of course, this was cut short when I literally went into battle beside my Khalsa Singh...

People say that I am extraordinary. That is true, but the reason is nothing in me that others Kaurs don't have. The difference is having a radically different upbringing from other Sikh girls. Did I mention that throughout childhood,into adulthood and even now, my physical health has been very delicate? I was born with a congenital blood condition that is usually fatal at a young age. I fortunately had a Dad that, while giving me all the loving care and medical aid available, still insisted I be all I could be - all I wanted to be.

Guru ji has given us Sikhs something special. If we want to live large - whether Kaur or Singh - we have that capability in us. If our own parents haven't help us develop this in ourselves, let us at least encourage our own children, Kaurs and Singhs alike, instead of clinging to a bunch of antiquated, patriarchal, comfortable customs.

(Sorry for my long windedness.)
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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Kanwaljit.Singh

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Jan 29, 2011
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I was thinking.. Having one Gurudwara with all women sewadars, Granthis, Raagis and Kathawachaks will never help. Because it will stand out too much and be taken as an exception. We can go forward only if at all Gurudwaras effort is made to encourage ladies and give them chance for sewa.
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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When in Hyderabad we used to meet on Sundays, there would be 4 parts of the program, Ardas, Kirtan, Shabad Vichar and Saakhi. All 4 duties would be given to both men and women from time to time. Thankfully in this limited set, there was never a thought or doubt that men could do something better. If we start from such a small thing in our local sangats, we can surely expand it to the whole Gurudwara sangat and Sikh kaum.
 

Gurmit Singh

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Jan 29, 2009
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Waheguru jee ka Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Due to a long period of slavery in India, life for women was more difficult and there was
little exposure. Accordingly, culture had developed that they could be more safe within
the four walls of the house. Hence, Sikh women during Mughal Period were no exception,
though they played a great role in the Sikh History.

Guru Guru Nanak Sahib had raised their morale and challenged the world by raising his
Divine Voice: "Why condemn women or call them inferior, when they give
birth to the Kings, Priests and all human-beings?" (GSS - p. 473)

Thus, Sikhs respect the women equally except certain custodians, who continue to be
influenced by the brahminical doctrine, instead of practicing Gurbani.

We must popularise the noble deeds done by - Mata Tripta jee, Mata Sulakhni jee,
Bebe Nanki jee, Mata Kheevi jee, Mata Bhani Jee, Mata Ganga jee, Mata Nanki jee,
Mata Kishan Kaur jee, Mata Gujri Kaur jee, Mata Sunder Kaur jee, Mai Bhag Kaur jee,
followed by several other brave Sikh ladies, who sacrificed their lives.

Life sketch of certain famous Sikh women has been provided in Book: "Presidh Sikh
Bibiaan" by Simran Kaur daughter of late Principal Satbir Singh jee, published by
Singh Brothers, Amritsar. Website: www.singhbrothers.com

Gurmit Singh (Australia)
 

C Kirpal

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Oct 7, 2011
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I fully agree with all your views and suggestions. Our country's two worst curses were castism , not treating others( of lower caste) as humans and TREATING women as objects. Even our country's great mythologies like Mahabharat and Ramayan prove that.
Then came our Sikhism whose foundations are laid by our most enlightened Gurus. Fresh air in a stagnating society:)
The main teaching is that GOD IS ONE AND SUPREME AND FORMLESS. All humans are alike . All life forms have same light of that supreme power.
But then why keepers of faith ,who definitively are not true Sikhs , laid down different rules for women. (I am most lucky to be born to true Sikh parents who taught us true teachings of Gurus. AND NOT MERE RULES OF SIKHISM LIKE IN BRAHMINISM :)

These keepers of faith dont do anything to ban using Sir-names???? Why there is castism in Sikh followers????? Why there are no inter caste marriages in SIKHS of different castes???? Why they talk about Biradari etc. Why inter religious marriages are looked down upon????
Why in so called Sikh families sons are desired ?????? Not daughters !!!!!! Why cases of killing daughters in name of honour are heard even in so called Sikhs??????
wHY FATHERS AND UNCLES DRINK ??? THEY PASS THE MESSAGE THAT ALCOHOL IS OK , NOT A BAD THING , ONLY SONS ARE YOUNG FOR THAT BUT its not a bad thing ...and for daughters its prohibited !!! HYPOCRITES !!!! They should themselves not indulge in bad things , only then a child will get the message that its WRONG ,,,not OK. Same message to both sons and daughters.
Why only Gurdwaras are constructed and not GOOD schools which can impart world class non religious quality education ????? Why political tricks are played in schools run by SGPC ?????
Why even Gurdwaras of different castes and local political parties are made ?????
Keeping Rahat should come from within with reverence and not FORCED AS A RULE .. If a true Sikh has actually understood SIKHISM , he/she will sport Kesh, Pagri etc with PRIDE AND REVERENCE. Our children should be given true knowledge and meaning of Gurbani rather than making things mere rituals of mugging the Pauris of Bani ...
People dont read Shri Granth Sahib , only worship it as IDOL. Thats what we teach our children.....
Its a very recent faith but if so called SIKHS go like this, it will become another fanatic faith in another 200-300 years like it happened with other faiths.

And women any way have to fight for their own rights. No one can give, we have to fight and get our rights....Thats the teaching Gurus gave us. Anyone not doing anything against
injustice is equal culprit :)
 

ravneet_sb

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Nov 5, 2010
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Sat Sri Akaal,

Some have good memory, with no processor
and some has processor, with no memory.
and some have balanced memory and processor.

Man cannot exist without woman
Woman has "Womb for Human" for existence
but
is incomplete without man

Leaving chemical love,

the higher dimension of love is

Understanding/Trust/Faith/Compassion

Both man and woman have animal instincts,
training of mind through "Guru's Bani"

leads to
live good family and social life

"Kudrat Ke Sab Bande"
"Kaun Bhale Kaun Mande"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

Navdeep88

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Dec 22, 2009
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Mai Ji,

I agree with you that parents have the biggest responsibility in this. To raise sons and daughters who can stand up in life. Who can be resilient and tough, whether they are male or female. So if life throws them a curveball, or whether they feel like they're standing in front of those automatic baseball dispensing things and are being plummeted by curveballs... they'll still know who they are and what they are deserving of. And don't settle for anything less or put up with unnecessary bs that aims to degrade them, abuse them etc.

But the weird thing is, I dont think this begins to come into understanding without some hard knocks in life. But parents can certainly esteem their kids (male and female) enough so that once they have to start to tread alone, they have a good idea of basic respect and dignity, and how to maintain it.
 

seeker3k

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May 24, 2008
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It is good thing that woman have to speak up for women’s place in history of Sikhism.
Writing here will not do much. Women have to take a lead in the villages cities. They should not wait for men to recognize them. Take the bull by the horn so to speak. A woman can not do the kirtan in Golden Temple.Why the women not going there and demand the change?

This next comment is going to make many people here upset.

Admin Note: Rest of the babbling removed from public domain...

Seeker3k ji, please provide a reliable source to support your babbling about Sikh Gurus. What you personally think or presume holds no merit whatsoever. Next time such a dare would invite more strict action. You are banned for a fortnight. This would give you sufficient time to gather some reliable sources to support your allegations.

Gurfateh,
Aman Singh
 
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ravneet_sb

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Sat Sri Akaal,

naaree purakh sabaa-ee lo-ay. ||3||
Among all the women and the men, His Light is shining


har kay bi-og kaisay jee-a-o mayree maa-ee. 331-1
I am separated from the Lord; how can I survive, O my mother? ||1||Pause||

ka-un ko purakh ka-un kee naaree.
Whose husband is he? Whose wife is she?

araDh sareeree naar na chhodai taa tay hindoo hee rahee-ai. ||3||
She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu.

saach katayb bakhaanai alhu naar purakh nahee ko-ee.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.

parmaysar ditaa bannaa. 627-17
The Transcendent Lord has given me His support.
dukh rog kaa dayraa bhannaa.
The house of pain and disease has been demolished.
anad karahi nar naaree.
The men and women celebrate.

sunn mandal ik jogee baisay. 685-16
The Yogi, the Primal Lord, sits within the celestial sphere of deepest Samaadhi.
naar na purakh kahhu ko-oo kaisay.
He is not male, and He is not female; how can anyone

purakh meh naar naar meh purkhaa boojhhu barahm gi-aanee. 879-2
The female is in the male, and the male is in the female. Understand this, O God-realized being!

naaree purakh purakh sabh naaree sabh ayko purakh muraaray. 983-2
Women and men, all the men and women, all came from the One Primal Lord God

aapay purakh aapay hee naaree. 1020-15
You Yourself are the male, and You Yourself are the female.

How to equate "Light" with "Air"
and "Water" with "Earth"

Though each being different but Important but interdependant

So is "man" and "woman"

To compare, equate is due to formal education.

But to be different is "nature"

Divided are ruled by other's, that is social law since ages


It's not "Man" to "Woman's" Equality

But it's "Woman" to "Woman" equality

Woman has to

develop

liking for there monthly cycles
liking for there own natural looks
liking for birth process
liking for the cause of nature,

make eqaulity among themselves
follow and respect the discipline of nature

to be treated as social equal

Woman to woman difference is cause of inequality

"Guru's Bani" is equal for "man" and "woman"

It is "Self" of "Ego" which cause "inequality" among "equals"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Dec 21, 2010
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seeker3k ji some comments and I hope you will take it with the way you wrote about the Guru jis as well,
This next comment is going to make many people here upset.

We always are saying that Gurus honor the women. I disagree with it. They have said Few sloks in the honor of women.
Please sir/madam explain to me the table of contents you created for the Guru jis, the Bhagats, Baba Farid ji, and others in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that has writings spanning almost 500 years and some how they ignored! :}--}: I am sure there are others who can say their particular focus is not addressed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am sorry to say, you can be a Sikh and follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as written or get the hell out of Sikhism! It seems Guru ji could not have pleased some people as they are wiser after the fact.

Admin Comment: Inflammatory Comment Removed.

I am sorry there appears no limit to your nonsense. Please spell Guru jis name right given your intellectual accomplishment. Now you, I hope you are a Sikh, find faults in how the Guru ji lived 400-500 years ago. I wonder how your most noble ancestors lived then as I would like to comment on their lifestyles. Again Veer ji or Bhain ji, if the sacrifices of Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji, Sri Guru Teg Bahadur ji and Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji you don't want to recognize but looking them to be perfect like you, I am sorry to say again the choice is very clear, either you are not a Sikh or if you are perhaps you need to return your life to the Guru jis in trust and convert to Islam as such was an assured path given the state of the nation then.

I realize that all Guru jis works, their sacrifices, and sacrifices of many men and women were directed at making men better and women worse. Sir/Madam I know you are pleasing perhaps some in this thread by taking the strongest position on how in Sikhism women are treated worse than any other place on earth. I am not sure if you ever loved a female, loved your mother or had shown respect for females. Many here do as their spouses, mothers, sisters and friends.

Please review what you have written and I am not offended but I am distraught at what lack of perspective you have posted. I am sure you have shared such with others and made some friends so doing.

While you are at it can you please elaborate your understanding of Gurbani to help me as I cannot figure out if the creator in Gurbani is portrayed as a male, female, inanimate or formless. You seem to know Gurbani as your analysis shows when you say about all contributors to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that "
They have said Few sloks in the honor of women." Can you explain why there should be any as Gurbani is centric to "Ik Onkaar"? I will like you to define "few" and also "many" that are in praise of men.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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Seeker3kji,

I am not sure if you mean to be inflammatory in your postings, or whether this is a language issue, as I note your grammar to be a bit lacking here and there, you make some good points, but I think you need to learn some tact and diplomacy, or just brush up on your communication skills, or possibly how to present your thoughts in a way that does not seem offensive.

I have no doubt that those Gurus that married more than once, had a very good reason for it, and I can assure you that this reason was not to have a small harem, Our Guruji's already had divine pleasure from Creator, they had no need to look for anything else on this earth. I also seem to recall that the tenth master married for the third time when he had given up sex, He promised his third wife children by saying 'the Khalsa are your children', thus elevating his wives to the status of 'Mother of the Khalsa', they were every bit as brave as he was, No, my friend, I cannot see how the taking of another wife in the circumstances of the tenth master has in any way 'set things back'.

I have responded to and thanked your edited post, it is only be reading Amberseriaji's reply that I am able to see the true rudeness and lack of respect shown, I am not quite sure what your agenda is, to inflame, or make a point, if it is the former, fair enough, I suppose school has not started yet, or maybe there are no flies around to pull the wings off. if it is the latter, then your opinions are welcomed for open debate, but please at least try and be civil...
 

Tejwant Singh

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Well, I am glad I am henpecked. That is not the point but it is life.

Having said that, the first thing we should change in our Anand Karaj is that both the bride and the groom should walk shoulder to shoulder rather than the bride walking behind the groom.

One interesting thing to notice in the West is that when the parents grow old, they are looked after by their daughters not by their sons as is in the case of the Punjabi culture.

Something to ponder!

Tejwant Singh
 

findingmyway

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Aug 17, 2010
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Admin Comment: Inflammatory Comment Removed.

Completely wrong. I am tired of hearing this rumour repeated constantly. The Guru's always practised what they preached. NO GURU MARRIED MORE THAN ONCE. Just like the many of the janamsakhis around Guru Nanak are false and designed to undermine Sikhi by introducing confusion and doubt, false stories about the other Guru's have also been disseminated. Please get your facts straight before insulting our Guru's.
 
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findingmyway

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Aug 17, 2010
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I have no doubt that those Gurus that married more than once, had a very good reason for it, and I can assure you that this reason was not to have a small harem, Our Guruji's already had divine pleasure from Creator, they had no need to look for anything else on this earth. I also seem to recall that the tenth master married for the third time when he had given up sex, He promised his third wife children by saying 'the Khalsa are your children', thus elevating his wives to the status of 'Mother of the Khalsa', they were every bit as brave as he was, No, my friend, I cannot see how the taking of another wife in the circumstances of the tenth master has in any way 'set things back'.

Incorrect!!!!!!! NO GURU MARRIED MORE THAN ONCE. Guru Gobind Singh ji only married once. His wife's name changed after marriage as per the old custom (my grandmother did this also). Another follower then offered his daughter to Guru Gobind Singh and it is often quoted she was the 3rd wife but he never married her as he said he was already married. Mata Sahib Kaur was a sevadaar in the Guru's court and had no other relationship. The reference to providing her children referred to the Khalsa which is why she was involved in the amrit sanchar ceremony-she had proved herself a worthy sevadaar. Please research the facts before supporting rumours!
 

Inderjeet Kaur

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Oct 13, 2011
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Completely wrong. I am tired of hearing this rumour repeated constantly. The Guru's always practised what they preached. NO GURU MARRIED MORE THAN ONCE. Just like the many of the janamsakhis around Guru Nanak are false and designed to undermine Sikhi by introducing confusion and doubt, false stories about the other Guru's have also been disseminated. Please get your facts straight before insulting our Guru's.

Thank you for saying that. Those statements really bothered me, but I was unsure how to answer without inflaming the situation. I personally wonder that someone could believe such about our Gurus and still remain a Sikh. Doesn't being a Sikh involve respect for them, at least?

SIKH CODE OF CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS

[SIZE=-1] Section One

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] CHAPTER 1[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
The Definition of Sikh :

Article I
Any human being who faithfully believes in
i. One Immortal Being,
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

I think those beliefs violate Section One, CHAPTER 1, Article 1, ii quoted above, although I suppose what "faithfully believes in...Ten Gurus..." might be open to interpretation.

I know this is slightly off-topic, but it is an important point that cannot be passed over.

Or is it on-topic because a Kaur is expressing a strong opinion?
 
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