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Harry Haller

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Gurfatehji

My dear neighbour next door, a butcher whose wife was expecting twins a few months ago, had his heart set on a girl, and he was told his wife was expecting a girl and a boy, they were both delighted, she gave birth early, the boy was fine, but the girl had a few problems and eventually died, this couple were devastated, all they had ever wanted was a little girl, at the funeral, the smallest coffin I have ever seen was carried in by my friend, a tough east end butcher, crying his eyes out like his heart was broken

Compare this was a memory I have of a family I know (sikh) who had just had a girl, I was at the house while the phone was ringing with family congratulations, only it was more like somebody had died, quiet whispers, apologies, tears,

Now these people, are the same types of people, human beings, with feelings, so what has gone wrong,

The truth is that women have always had it hard, and in some societies, they are still, absolutely repressed, I believe that Sikhism has tried to make inroads into equality, but good old human nature just takes over, together with tradition, bitterness, control, the whole circle keeps going round, the abused grow up to be the abuser, how many mother in laws, having suffered themselves are going to take kindly to a daughter in law coming into a family and enjoying liberties and treatment that did not exist 20 years ago, how many would like to forgive and forget, but just cannot,

My friend did not feel anything negative for his daughter because he does not live in a society that places glory on a son, he does not have to worry about a dowry, he just has to worry about what he wants, and what his wife wants, compare that to most indian couples who are about to give birth, its not about what he or her wants, its about what the family wants, and I think there lies the difference and the solution, we need more enlightened people in families to put forward the proposition that it makes no difference, those wrinkled stern looking elders need to start reassuring the younger generations that hold them in such high esteem that girls are ok, and everything else will filter down, the problem people, in families, Gurdwaras, that do that little sorry smile and pained expression on hearing 'its a girl' need to be mocked and ridiculed for their stances, younger people need to start asking more questions, we need to shame anyone who actually really believes that it makes any difference as to what the sex of a child is, and then maybe one day, in our culture, it really won't matter, who knows, maybe it will swing round so much, people will be ashamed of having boys
 

seeker3k

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May 24, 2008
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Seeker3k ji, please provide a reliable source to support your babbling about Sikh Gurus. What you personally think or presume holds no merit whatsoever. Next time such a dare would invite more strict action. You are banned for a fortnight . This would give you sufficient time to gather some reliable sources to support your allegations.

Gurfateh,
Aman Singh
Dear Aman Singh ji,
I have sent the data info to administer but I think no one there want to know the truth.
You can read about it in mahan kosh by Kan Sinh Nabha.
I will wait for the reply. If no reply then I will post it here
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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Oct 5, 2006
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Gurfatehji

Compare this was a memory I have of a family I know (sikh) who had just had a girl, I was at the house while the phone was ringing with family congratulations, only it was more like somebody had died, quiet whispers, apologies, tears,

When we went on that fateful trip to India in 1984, we had intended to bring an unwanted daughter or two from Mani's family home with us. Then, I turned up pregnant with twins and we were delighted. I got an ultrasound to check on the babies' well-being and the doctor told us without being asked that we had two pinkies. The response of the family was immediate and devastating. They were offering too arrange for the abortion! I was in tears, Mani was livid and Sandeep was in tears as well. What a scene that was! Mani, his arm protectively around me, was screaming at them in a most un-Mani-like manner that how did anyone dare to suggest murdering his children and what the h*** was wrong with these people who called themselves Sikhs and yet were so quick to insult our Guru Sahiban and how dare they treat a pregnant woman in such a fashion...By the time he was finished, I think all of them were cowering in a corner.

Looking back, what strikes me the most is that there was no question in their collective mind. No one even suggested we get an abortion, it was just taken for granted, a matter of course.

The systematic elimination of our girls is nothing short of suicide. When will the sangat (I won't call them saadh) wake up to this truth?!
 
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Mai Harinder Kaur

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Mai Ji,

your son's name was Sandeep?? That's my older brother's name! They're very special people, those Sandeeps. :)

Aren't they, though.

And don't you dare call them Sandy. I can still hear him in first grade telling his teacher who decided he needed a "Western" name, "NO! YOU MAY NOT CALL ME SANDY. MY NAME IS SAN-DEEP. DEEP, DEEP, DEEP. SAN DEEP. yellingmunda Very special indeed.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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Originally Posted by harry haller
Gurfatehji

Compare this was a memory I have of a family I know (sikh) who had just had a girl, I was at the house while the phone was ringing with family congratulations, only it was more like somebody had died, quiet whispers, apologies, tears,
I know I have shared this story many years ago but it is worth repeating here. I went back to India for the first time after having lived away since the age of 15. The year was 1985 when Papa ji had passed away.

We have a big British era bungalow style house in Ferozepore which is on 3 acres of land. My Grand dad had built 10 houses at the back to get the rental income.

My Mum used to look after the renters and one of the residents was a kind of sister to her whose daughter had gotten married. My Mum herself had 6 daughters and she used to get young girls from the poor families from the villages around, train them and then marry them off. She must have done this for about 20 girls if I am not mistaken. She used to pay for the wedding, normally a Hindu style but many of them turned into Sikhi and she found the Sikh grooms for them.

My Mum's "sister's" daughter was expecting and was home when I got there. After a few days, I hear the weeping sounds from the house. I got surprised and went there to check if the baby was fine.

The reality was that the daughter had given birth to a baby girl. I got very upset after having been brought up in a house with 6 sisters. As I was a "new Punjabi" then, I unloaded my ire at the grandma, at her two sons who were grown up,the new dad, all crying and went and hugged the Mum of the new born and explained them that it is a blessing rather than a curse to have a baby girl. Sex/gender is only in Ik Ong Kaar's hands. My outrage seemed to have worked because I made the brothers and the new dad to go to the bazaar and bring mithai to distribute to all neighbours.

Then things calmed down because "The Angrez"- as they used to call me then, sorted things out.

I thought I would share this with you again to show how this kind of talibanisation of treating women as a curse, a good for nothing but a burden mentality hurts Sikhi and sad to say that many Sikhs are not strong enough to cope with it, simply because they are ritualistic and have padlocks on their inner Gurdwaras.

Tejwant Singh
 
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spnadmin

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Jun 17, 2004
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Angrez ji

This is the first time I can remember you telling this story. Angrez always you will be. Maybe we need more "Angrez" dispatched through India and the diaspora to get the story out and spread the mithai too.
 

Ambarsaria

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Dec 21, 2010
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spnadmin ji one comment to your and Tejwant Singh ji's post.
Angrez ji

This is the first time I can remember you telling this story. Angrez always you will be. Maybe we need more "Angrez" dispatched through India and the diaspora to get the story out and spread the mithai too.
The actual thoughts in many a minds these days about such are very feeble or nimble. Many change with least amount of nudging. The tragedy is that many ignore and don't have even a little courage to speak up when such makes all the difference one family at a time.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Ambarsaria

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Dec 21, 2010
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seeker3k ji histories cannot be re-written. Are you trying to flag a mistake by Guru Gobind Singh ji to prove something? They claimed to be human like you me and the people all around. They had higher ideals to shape a flock of sheep and ash laden idiots into a community of thinkers and warriors. What is bigger the deeds or possible mistake(s)?

There is a saying "Let him throw the first stone!". It simply means before we focus on mistakes we need to look at ourselves. So I assume you did!

I also assume you wish you were never born out of mistake led religion. The reason you me and many others are around is perhaps due to Guru Gobind Singh ji sacrifices and of many Sikhs thereafter. Some will never learn to be thankful or say thank you.

So let us recount,

  • Guru Gobind Singh ji died for you and me
  • His four sons died for you and me
  • His father died to save the religion that the people in 1984 re-payed by killing Sikhs
  • His loved companions died for you and me
Let us hear of your or your family's eternal contribution to our lives or mankind that we can be thankful for! That is how life works! It is called put up or shut up!

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Tejwant Singh

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Seeker3k ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am just appalled at your mindset. Your hatred towards Sikhi for the reasons only known to you.

I know many Agnostics who are loving and caring but I have seen you for years do nothing but find faults where they do not exist.

So, next time, if you want to talk about Sikhi, talk about the Shabad Guru and discuss that, so that your disdain can be tamed by you.

Show me the faults in SGGS if you find any. The rest is all debatable for its veracity but you have a habit of clinging on to something that says anything against Sikhi or about our Gurus who gave us the new vision and a brand new thought process, things you do not try to dwell into. If you did, then you would not be so venomous towards yourself and to the rest of the world.

We all work to get better in life but it seems with time you have become more bitter, disdainful and self loathing while trying to find faults in Sikhi.

It is sad to notice that this is the way you have chosen to live your life.

I will wait for you to find any mistakes in the SGGS, our only Guru.

Tejwant Singh
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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spnadmin ji one comment to your and Tejwant Singh ji's post.
The actual thoughts in many a minds these days about such are very feeble or nimble. Many change with least amount of nudging. The tragedy is that many ignore and don't have even a little courage to speak up when such makes all the difference one family at a time.

Sat Sri Akal.

feeble minds have been the scourge of society for too long, the more feeble a mind, the more fickle it seems to be
 

seeker3k

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May 24, 2008
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Very nice it nicly fitting for these people who go so low to attack on personal level.<?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
Are you forgetting the topic? The topic is women in Sikhi.
I am as proud of Gobind Sing as you and others. No one here took oath to promote women cause. But they are very quick to attack on personal lever. I have not attacked any one on personal lever. You want to keep doing it that is your problem.
Does this act by the Gurus help women’s self esteem? For a man it is good.
If any one can read what I wrote. I gave the reason why Gobind Sing married 2 times. I never said he was wrong.

Guru Gobind Singh had one wife at a time. That is a bit different from the implications of earlier. spnadmin.

<o:p> </o:p>
The reason women are not recognized in Sikhi is Sikhism is controlled by men. No gurdwara is managed by woman in any part of the world. There is no woman granthi in any gurdwara.

Again. Please no dramatic generalizations. A Haifax sangat has an all women management committee. There are other sangats with women in important executive roles. The Guru Ramdas Ashram in Espanola has a woman granthi. This is also not the only one. Check. You will be surprised. spnadmin

Here in <?xml:::eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Canada</st1:country-region> on Wisakhi Sikhs do nagar kertan. 5 pyare walk in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with their swords drawn. There is no woman in those 5? <st1:place w:st="on">Punjab is highst in daughter killing. I have not seen any man making statement against the daughter killing.

Men still think women are not strong or wise to defend them and others. How many DC,DSP,SP are women in <st1:place w:st="on">Punjab? Women are majority now but they are the highest unemployed in <st1:place w:st="on">Punjab?
<o:p> </o:p>
Women liberation started in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> in late 50’s. There too men were against the movement. But women of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> persisted and the won their rights. In <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region> men and women worked together in factories but woman was paid half what the man got?
<o:p> </o:p>
Women all over the world been abused for thousands years by men. It is about time they get their right and live in honor. It is up to men to make it happen. Women still are not strong economically. It has to start in gurdwaras and at homes. Half of the MLS must be women. Every Gov office must have half women working there.
Whos in here is willing to pick up the cause for women? Here all are good at personal attak and swear at one who point out weakness.
I am not going go to some of men here who swear at me.
<o:p> </o:p>
Jesus had wife but the Catholic hid it from the public. Now it is out. If we try to hide thing from people they will not respect the gurus and those who try to hide it. If having more one wife is not mistake then why hide it? Why people getting upset if one talk about it? It means they don’t have the respect of guru. I am proud of guru no matter what he did. He did what was right at that time.
One who show us the mirror is our friend. Sorry I meant Me not people at this site
 
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Ambarsaria

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seeker3k ji I feel for you.

Let us take a look at your style with an excerpts,

Very nice it nicly fitting for these people who go so low to attack on personal level.ffice
redface.gif
ffice" />
You are perfectly OK to attack revered Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji 303 years after his death. Read your writing as others read it not with some convoluted mindset that your style is ever so pious.

Are you forgetting the topic? The topic is women in Sikhi.
It appears you are the only one talking much about men, negatives, and history and little about women, positives and future. Make some suggestion in righting future. Give examples of what you have done to make things right for women.

Finding faults or so specially historic is cheapest of professions
. People are not here to speak to you one on one. Make comments on a net some basis of positives and negatives. Continuing to hanker on negatives is not a positive thing.

Furthermore learn to show respect to fellow spners if you expect them to take you respectfully. Confrontation is not the answer nor people responding to your posts in like tone an aberration, low or suddenly an attack. You are getting what your posts ask for.

Please respect women in this thread and don't color all men as devils as most respondents in this thread are actually men who are making positive contributions, giving ideas, etc. For example,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/37631-women-in-sikhi-2.html#post156830

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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seeker3k

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May 24, 2008
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In the Harmander there is 10X20 bilbord where it is posted on the wall for every one to read.
If any one here is real son of his father go there and take that bilbord off and see what can happen.
It is easy to talk on net
Thos who have studied and wrote history are wrong. only people here are right.
 

Inderjeet Kaur

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Oct 13, 2011
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V
. No gurdwara is managed by woman in any part of the world. There is no woman granthi in any gurdwara.

Women all over the world been abused for thousands years by men. It is about time they get their right and live in honor. It is up to men to make it happen.


Seeker ji,

You sound so very angry. I truly wish you could find some peace within yourself. The weight of all that rage must be a heavy burden to bear. I am very serious. I am not being sarcastic or treating it lightly. Dear Seeker, your deeply caring and passionate nature could be used for so much good, if only you could learn to turn the negative around into positive action.

About your comment. Just for the sake of accuracy, there is a gurdwara in the Maritimes, Newfoundland, I think, that is being run very successfully by the Kaurs. I know it's only one, but it's a start.

Second, the men cannot free the women. Freedom is something that must be taken; it cannot be given. Our dear brothers can be supportive and cheer us on, but in the end, we must do it ourselves.
 
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Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Dec 21, 2010
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In the Harmander there is 10X20 bilbord where it is posted on the wall for every one to read.
Can you please stop riddling as you appear to be adding nothing positive unless I missed something.
If any one here is real son of his father go there and take that bilbord off and see what can happen.
I am assuming you are not real your self and could not do. So are looking to delegate and challenge everyone with your further statements of stupidity which usually get quite a different reaction face to face.
It is easy to talk on net
Thos who have studied and wrote history are wrong. only people here are right.
Whatever !!

Take a chill pill. You are not too welcome with such posts. I will still say,

Sat Sri Akal and (Sadah Pisha Shadoh Ji peacesign)
 

ravneet_sb

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Nov 5, 2010
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Sat Sri Akaal,

Inderjeet Kaur Ji,

the men cannot free the women.

Equal dependencies can be observed in man too.

True for men and women both. One is slave of one's one thought process.
How one slave can free other slave.

It's like

Why beggar's are called beggar's,
though everyone begs
because
they seek something from man or woman or humans..
What better, one beggar can give to other beggar.

They don't seek strength for self from all mighty
from which everyone begs, .


Freedom is something that must be taken; it cannot be given. Our dear brothers can be supportive and cheer us on, but in the end, we must do it ourselves.

Freedom/Independence/ is state of mind,
no one can give to other,
except who owe that "THE STATE OF MIND".

Waheguru Ji K Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 
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