Yes Kesh, Why Tied?

[Arvind]

Khalsa and Sikh two separate things?

Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa

When you have reached the position to be able to maintain purity of thought
and action, and still continually seek the truth, you become Khalsa.

So nicely explained concept Sikh ji. This is really good for learners like us.

Best Regards.

 

[Eclectic]

I am so sorry for the incomplete sentence:
IF one can maintain kesh without turban, it is fine.

I should have said - IF one can maintain kesh without turban and wants to cover head with any other thing, it is fine.

Aaah! Who makes up all these rules? What does the sikh teachings say about all of this. What are the exact words? And who is to tell people what is excessive materialism and what isn't? Are these unwritten rules or what? lol

 

[Arvind]

Well, I didnt/dont write the rules! I am a Sikh to get direction from Guru Granth Sahib ji. So, regarding your lol, I dont have any answer. May be some learned member on this forum reply appropriately.

Regards.

 

[Neutral Singh]

Aaah! Who makes up all these rules? What does the sikh teachings say about all of this. What are the exact words? And who is to tell people what is excessive materialism and what isn't? Are these unwritten rules or what? lol

Admin Note : I am sure you did not mean to offend anyones sentiments... Please refrain from such remarks in future. Thank You.
____________________________________________________________

Eclectic, i think you have not read the following post by dear S|kh...

Khalsa and Sikh two separate things?

Guru Gobind codified the Khalsa? which has no relation to Sikh?

Take this for hand :
khu kbIr jn Bey Kwlsy pRym Bgiq ijh jwnI ]4]3]
kahu kabeer jan bheae khaalasae praem bhagath jih jaanee ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3||

quoted from SGGS, for the sake of plamba.

Guru Gobind codified the true sikhs and initiated them into the Khalsa.

The Khalsa and the Sikh are very much inter-related, whether its only stated in the Dasam Granth or not. The quote above is from Bhagat Kabeer, and shows the theory of Khalsa had been around long before Guru Gobind created it.

Khalsa - Brotherhood dedicated to purity of thought and action.
Sikh - seeker of the truth.

When you have reached the position to be able to maintain purity of thought and action, and still continually seek the truth, you become Khalsa.

It can be seen as a goal of a Sikh. As even Kabeer says from the above quote, that the pure ones become the Khalsa.

The Gurus, and many other bhagats simply laid the foundation to become pure, and Guru Gobind added upon this and codified the Khalsa.

As Bhagat Kabeer stated, the Khalsa, the pure, know the Lord's loving devotional worship. Guru Gobind finished the portrait of the Khalsa, and laid the foundation to become similar teachers. As even Guru Gobind, bent down in most humility and talked to Khalsa Panth as if they were his gurus, his teachers, his informers.

Guru Gobind did not randomly create the Khalsa. It was an image prevalent among all the other Gurus and bhagats, Guru Gobind simply finished the portrait, or it can be seen as he finished the goal of a Sikh.
That a Sikh should become part of this pure community, devoted to purity of action and thought, and still continually search for the truth.

Eclectic, have you ever thought that you could complete your graduation degree without completing/clearing your 'smaller' grades in schools and colledge ? and these 'smaller' grades are indeed very important milestones in our lives...

so why so much carelessness while making judgements which are beyond our comprehensions... atleast for now... once we slowly and steadily clear/pass/complete our 'smaller' grades in our religous journey, these so called rules will stop bothering us... We will adapt to these simplest of rules without even a second thought... moreover just by following these simple rules does not make us a Khalsa... its your healthy karmas and purety of thoughts that make us a Khalsa or Pure...

To be a Khalsa or Pure is a pinnacle for any person... by any person i specifically meant because everybody has the potential to become Pure...

i hope i made some sense as i am no scholar/intellectual... its just my present level of understanding...

Bhul Chuk Maaf (Please forgive my ignorance)

Best Regards

 

[Eclectic]

Admin Note : I am sure you did not mean to offend anyones sentiments... Please refrain from such remarks in future. Thank You.

Sorry, I didn't think it would be offensive. My question was an honest one. I did ask where does it point out all the specifics of how Sikhis should follow Kesh. But thanks for pointing out the answer.

 

[plamba]

Khalsa and Sikh two separate things?
Guru Gobind codified the Khalsa? which has no relation to Sikh?
Take this for hand :
khu kbIr jn Bey Kwlsy pRym Bgiq ijh jwnI ]4]3]
kahu kabeer jan bheae khaalasae praem bhagath jih jaanee ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3||
quoted from SGGS, for the sake of plamba.
Guru Gobind codified the true sikhs and initiated them into the Khalsa.
The Khalsa and the Sikh are very much inter-related, whether its only stated in the Dasam Granth or not. The quote above is from Bhagat Kabeer, and shows the theory of Khalsa had been around long before Guru Gobind created it.
Khalsa - Brotherhood dedicated to purity of thought and action.
Sikh - seeker of the truth.
When you have reached the position to be able to maintain purity of thought and action, and still continually seek the truth, you become Khalsa.
It can be seen as a goal of a Sikh. As even Kabeer says from the above quote, that the pure ones become the Khalsa.
The Gurus, and many other bhagats simply laid the foundation to become pure, and Guru Gobind added upon this and codified the Khalsa.
As Bhagat Kabeer stated, the Khalsa, the pure, know the Lord's loving devotional worship. Guru Gobind finished the portrait of the Khalsa, and laid the foundation to become similar teachers. As even Guru Gobind, bent down in most humility and talked to Khalsa Panth as if they were his gurus, his teachers, his informers.
Guru Gobind did not randomly create the Khalsa. It was an image prevalent among all the other Gurus and bhagats, Guru Gobind simply finished the portrait, or it can be seen as he finished the goal of a Sikh.
That a Sikh should become part of this pure community, devoted to purity of action and thought, and still continually search for the truth.

Pardon the delay in responding. I was in India for six weeks.

Guru Gobind Singh was born almost 150 years after Kabir's death. The context in which the anti-ritual Kabir uses the word "khalsa" has nothing to do with the highly ritualized Khalsa order created by Guru Gobind Singh. The only thing in common is the word "khalsa." However, the word by itself means little. The context is everything.

"kabeer preeti ik siau keey aan dubhidhaa jaai; bhaavey laambe kes karu bhaavey gharari mundaai"

(Kabir, when you are in love with the One God, duality and alienation depart. You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald.)

-- KABIR

Source: Adi Granth, p. 1365

Puneet Singh Lamba
Boston, MA
http://sikhtimes.com
+1 339 221 1561

 

[max314]

I fail to grasp why kesh is tied up. If you keep God's gift, then why hide it under a turban? Covering head it for humility but if you can keep the hair tidy while it is down then what is wrong with that? Does Sikhism really require that of people that they tie it up, comb twice a day and tie a specific head cover? It all seems pointless and ritualistic.
Hope someone can point me in the right direction.

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher

The turban was considered a sign of status and aristocracy in India. The Tenth Guru adopted it as a symbol that every man should have the right to dress as a king. The turban was tied to scare the shit out of oncoming hordes of Mughals. Hey, there were like 2 Khalsa warriors going up against thousands of Mughals at a time...they needed all the edge they could get :shock:

The 'combing twice a day' thing was to keep the hair of the ever-moving Khalsa clean. Don't forget that many, many days, weeks...and even years...were spent away at war. To create a sense of discipline whilist at war is not a bad thing, mon frère :}{}{}:

And, of course, the fact that a fully attired Khalsa would look like this:

meant that any guy would look at that and realise that it's one kick-{censored} piece of 17th century clothing

 

[BhagatSingh]

nice! Although I would argue why the guy is not shown to have body hair and hair on the beck of the neck. Overall it looks gangster

 

[max314]

I fail to grasp why kesh is tied up. If you keep God's gift, then why hide it under a turban? Covering head it for humility but if you can keep the hair tidy while it is down then what is wrong with that? Does Sikhism really require that of people that they tie it up, comb twice a day and tie a specific head cover? It all seems pointless and ritualistic.
Hope someone can point me in the right direction.

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher

The turban is like a banner. It's a symbol of freedom and a declaration of aristocracy.

In the Old East, the turban was considered the highest sign of aristocracy, allowed only to be worn by kings and other figures of importance. What Guru Gobind Singh did was to say that all men - not just the ones born into certain families - had the right to wear it.

The meaning of the turban in the popular mind has altered as of late. Oh so many people associate turbans with Arab terrorists, which is an unfortunate association. But it's original intention was the one stated above.

So yes, it is "ritualistic" in some senses, but it is not "pointless". As I've said, the whole 'point' of wearing a turban was to 'make a point' :}{}{}:

You should know that the cutting of hair is not condemned anywhere in the Guru Granth Sahib. In fact, there is a passage that reads as follows:

"Kabir, when you are in love with the One God, duality and alienation depart. You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald."

~ KABIR ~

Adi Granth, p. 1365​

The keeping of hair and the wearing of the turban were ideas written about in the Dassam Granth; a separate compilation containing the writings of the Tenth Master.

If you're a Star Wars fan, like me, then you might like thinking of it like this: the Force exists, and both Jedis and normal people who learn to harness its energies can utilise it. But those who do not control their inner selves and do not practice discipline become destructive in their powers. They become 'Sith'. Therefore, it is necessary for the Jedi to have a certain code to help to ensure that no selfish Siths are created. Of course, there is still no guarantee but it certainly helps.

Similarly, the Tenth Master felt that if ever Khalsa (or 'Jedi Knight') wore the 5Ks to remind him/her of their values at all times of the day and night and to recite the words of gurbani that teach devotion to nothing except the Universe itself (waheguru), and to respect all its creations and to fights for the equality of all men and women, that the fire-woshipping, snake-eating, triabl-warring, widow-burning, stone worshipping world of 17th century India could be changed for the better into a more productive society.

Whilst I don't adhere to the Code Of The Khalsa, I certainly don't see anything wrong in adopting it. Even if it is a little dated, it can still teach good morals and good discipline.

 

[dalsingh]

When the English attacked Panjab, they looted the Khalsa darbar afterwards. Most of the stuff they robbed is here in the U.K.

This turban helmet was one of such things held at the Victoria and Albert Museum. It shows that under some circumstances at least, Sikhs didn't wear turbans.

 

[BhagatSingh]

dal singh althought I dont disagree wih you i think that somekind of head dress (maybe a smaller turban) WAS worn under the helmet

max I dont think the five ks are outdated.... They are actually very modern, in my opinion. There will be a time where scientists etc will start encouraging people to not cut their hair etc maybe due to the sun or whatever the reason might be

as for why kesh are kept tied... i think its mostly to hold them in place so they dont interfere with what ur doing
i personally like kesh open and flowing or braided

 

[dalsingh]

dal singh althought I dont disagree wih you i think that somekind of head dress (maybe a smaller turban) WAS worn under the helmet

Possibly, but looking closely at that picture makes me think not.

 

[dalsingh]

Here is another one.

 

[dalsingh]

This is what a Singh should look like

 

[max314]

max I dont think the five ks are outdated.... They are actually very modern, in my opinion. There will be a time where scientists etc will start encouraging people to not cut their hair etc maybe due to the sun or whatever the reason might be

Some people may consider the wearing of a kaschaera that is bound exclusively by a nala - as opposed to elastic - as not being the epitomy of modernity. Also, some may say that steel wrist-guards don't necessarily play a huge role in modern society. And neither does carrying a sword around in a society that aims to be peaceful and non-violent.

As I said, these things probably had a real sense fo value in the time of the Tenth Master, but other than being symbols and articles of of a proud heritage, it is quite valid to say that those five 'Ks' are a little dated by today's standards.

 

[max314]

This is what a Singh should look like

Perhaps. Though I'd be interested to see him trying to walk through a doorway.

 

[dalsingh]

Perhaps. Though I'd be interested to see him trying to walk through a doorway.

He wouldn't have to much of a problem I think....but this guy..... is another story

 

[max314]

He wouldn't have to much of a problem I think....but this guy..... is another story

Wow, that is pretty big.

I'm a big believer that one should live their life in moderation. Such extremes, in my view, can assist in bloating the ego.

"People wear all sorts of costumes and wander all around, but in their hearts and minds, they practice deception."
~ From Siree Raag, Third Mehl ~​

 

[dalsingh]

Wow, that is pretty big.

I'm a big believer that one should live their life in moderation. Such extremes, in my view, can assist in bloating the ego.

"People wear all sorts of costumes and wander all around, but in their hearts and minds, they practice deception."​

~ From Siree Raag, Third Mehl ~​

I think one thing all Sikhs need to realise is that as a quom, we are a heavily symbolic people. Much more so than average in my opinion (i.e. compared to the groups around us).

I see nothing wrong with this. Even the 5 Ks.

You say it is out date, but look at "modern" England. They still have people dressed up in gowns and wigs like they were in the 17th century in their legal system, which is central to the whole country. My point being we certainly are not the only ones doing this and others from the "developed" world have no problem with it, so how is it outdated?



I love the fact that Nihungs today wear 10 pags in rememberence of defiance by Singhs who wore paghs despite a ban being placed on them doing so. It is basically a statement of defiance and self esteem. I think any true spirited Panjabi can relate to this, and would love it, whether mona or otherwise. We owe our existence to these "outdated" things.

 

[dalsingh]

Are our symbols any more outdated than these?