Sects Yogi Bhajan And 3HO

[sikandar]

Re: Yogi Bajan and 3HO

Although many aspects of yogi bhajan directs you to cult like preception but most of the 3ho sikhs I have met are better sikhs then so called punjabi "sikhs". Without offending others, I am pointing on Bana as you can never understand one's spiritual journey as only waheguru has power to judge not you and me.

Gurfateh!

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Yogi Bajan and 3HO

Sikandar ji

It is so good of you to make your comments. 3HO Sikhs take Sikhi very seriously. The time will come when we all realize that we are now seeing the 3rd and 4th generation of Yogi Bhajan's followers. it is time to pay attention to what is true now in the here and now. So much of it is good.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Yogi Bajan and 3HO

So, as for gurbani sources against the practices of yogi Bhajan.

First off I said -

" You see a banner of apparently "sikhs" using mudras ... in order to train and focus their mind? Is Naam not enough for them, or is there something lacking in Sikhism?"

And here is why I am perplexed. From Ang (page) 1348 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib (hereby SGGS):

ਭਗਉਤੀ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਿਆ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
The sacred mudras - ritualistic hand gestures - are made, but the mind remains enticed by Maya. ||1||Pause||

You can view the whole Shabad here:

Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 1348

If you read the full thing, it will make alot of sense.

Second, I said:

"And after you read the first paragraph - you learn that he had a mission to spread "kundalini yoga and tantra". He never specifies what kind of tantra."

From Ang 196 of SGGS:

All medicines and remedies, mantras and tantras are nothing more than ashes.
Enshrine the Creator Lord within your heart. ||3||

All the practices you could ever do with mantra, any form of yoga you could do, any form of tantric meditation or practice - WILL NOT lead you to God. the Naam will not enter your heart - you will be to distracted with outside ritual purity to even focus on the name of God within.

Here is another shabad against use of mantras and yoga:
Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 477

Further on Ang 866 of SGGS, we read:

My Tantra and Mantra is to meditate, to vibrate upon the Lord God.

Source: Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 866

This is where most who practice mantras, yoga, and tantra would say here that Guru Arjan Dev is saying the practice of all of that is okay if you focus on God - however - It is rather saying that to vibrate on the Lord is HIGHER then tantra. In the next few lines we see:

Illnesses and pains are dispelled, meditating on God.

Mantras have many purposes. some of these is too cure disease. Some people use yoga to cure an affliction in their body. None of these works as well as alone, meditating on God.

Man bāʼncẖẖaṯ pūran fal pā*ė. ||3||
the fruits of mind's desires are fulfilled.

Next, I said:

" But wait - Here we go. Here is what bothers me.

" "Kundalini yoga classes are a dynamic blend of postures, pranayam, mantra, music and meditation, which teach you the art of relaxation, self-healing and elevation." "

Let us look at what gurbani thinks about these.

they perform worship services, wear ceremonial religious marks on their foreheads, and take ritual cleansing baths at sacred shrines of pilgrimage.
They perform the inner cleansing practice with water and adopt the eighty-four Yogic postures; but still, they find no peace in any of these. ||2||

Source:

Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 98

You cannot find peace in any Yogic postures, according to Gurbani. However, it does say:

By His Mercy, I have met the Holy Saint.
My mind and body have been cooled and soothed; I have been blessed with patience and composure.
The Immortal Lord God has come to dwell within my heart. Nanak sings the songs of joy to the Lord. ||4||5||12||

This verse is from Guru Arjan Dev himself - he had met the Holy Saint, God. The only way to find peace is to chant the Naam, and enshrine god in your heart - then any other methods of Yoga are fruitless.

Please read this whole shabad, it is useless to quote the whole thing here.

Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 208

Yoga is useless if we do not enshrine love for God in our hearts, and stop relying on yogic methods.

In fact, Kabir even says:

In the cave of silence, dwell in your Yogic posture; let the subjugation of desire be your spiritual path. ||1||

Source: Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 334

I will add more also, later, as i compose my thoughts, with the grace of Waheguru.

Very Good Post, Sherab Ji.

 

[Suntink]

Wow, I know a lot about this topic and I could really help you see the big picture from both views. I'm not going to start saying the people in 3HO are not good people and they are doing this or that.

I just really hope you get the message, maybe after I will post in greater detail. I hope you read the post
Informing People on Unsafe Changes in Sikhi; Various Media Outlets; Not Sect-Bashing
on this website and also the TIME magazine article
Its URL is: Yogi Bhajan's Synthetic Sikhism - TIME [/FONT]

Also a very important court Affidavit from rickross.com on the issue discussed in this post.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/3ho/3ho83.html
On 3HO: http://www.rickross.com/groups/3ho.html


Thanks and Sincerely,

Suntink


I really think this information can help you greatly. And remember a Sikh should never put pressure on you to convert. We do not believe that we are the only ones to go to heaven. And we do not try to divide families.

 

[spnadmin]

Suntink ji

I know that in another thread I mentioned that these court affidavits, or any affidavits, are documents that are filed before a trial in order to persuade the court to hear a case. They are not evidence by any stretch of the imagination. They are only the claims that one side makes against the other. As such they prove nothing.

A big problem with the "rickross" web site is just that -- there is a lot of information on that site which in a court of law would be considered either hearsay evidence or unproved claims and statements. This kind of evidence has to be evaluated by a judge in a preliminary hearing before it can be used in a trial. Until then it has no weight.

Please do not think I am a cheerleader for Yogi Bhajan. It is just very important to me that SPN present a balanced picture so not to be sued. It is also very important, as just me, to be truthful and fair.

 

[Suntink]

Dear,

I would just like to mention some points as my opinion, other people may not agree.

1) The Affidavit by S Prem Kaur was signed by a California state Judge.

2) The article’s link above is by TIME magazine. One of the world’s most Trusted magazine.
In Conclusion, that is still just my opinion. But it is a legitimate view point. Others can see it differently if they choose so. I have not telling you that only what I post is always correct.
If one actually read the documents on rickross.com. They could actually see Pamela Dyson's (Prem Kaur's) signature stating that what was in her complaint was completely true. So if it was not she could have been counter-charged. And this was also signed by the attorneys for the plaintiff. Time magazine also writes about Yogi Bhajan’s lewd behaviour. So it seems logical to me.

 

[spnadmin]

Suntink ji

I will read the Time Magazine article and tell you what I think, Meanwhile

Dear,

I would just like to mention some points as my opinion, other people may not agree.

1) The Affidavit by S Prem Kaur was signed by a California state Judge.

Of course a judge signed the affidavit, in order to certify that it was received by the court. This is standard procedure and says nothing about the truth of the claims made in the affidavit.

2) The article’s link above is by TIME magazine. One of the world’s most Trusted magazine.
In Conclusion, that is still just my opinion. But it is a legitimate view point. Others can see it differently if they choose so. I have not telling you that only what I post is always correct.


If one actually read the documents on rickross.com. I did read these documents on rickross.com a long, long time ago. They could actually see Pamela Dyson's (Prem Kaur's) signature stating that what was in her complaint was completely true.

If I were going to take someone to court, I would sign the affidavit also. If I did not sign it the court would throw it out.

So if it was not she could have been counter-charged. And this was also signed by the attorneys for the plaintiff.

The facts are that the case never went to trial, so Prem Kaur was not cross-examined. And yes the attorneys for the plaintiff (Prem Kaur) also have to sign court papers to certify that they are the attorneys who represent the plaintiff. All of this is procedural and required.

None of this proves anything as I previously reported. If the case had in fact gone to trial then all of the claims made by Prem Kaur would be cross-examined before a judge and jury who would decide if she had made her case.Time magazine also writes about Yogi Bhajan’s lewd behaviour. So it seems logical to me.

It may seem logical to you; however, people lie and/or exaggerate all the time in the US, in order to make money through law suits. Sometimes cases are settled before trial because the accused does not want to bear the cost of paying attorneys for lengthy litigation. I do not know what country you are writing from -- but law suits are a fact of life in the US. So much so that politicians are trying to pass laws to limit the size of court awards for damages. I was once a witness for the defense in a religious discrimination case, and the plaintiff claimed that I was anti-Semitic because I called him a "parakeet." (Do you believe that I called him a parakeet, one of those cute little green birds?) Problem was he told two different stories about this in two different affidavits. He couldn't keep his story straight. He lost.

Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. :shifty: And please, Suntink ji, educate yourself about the legal system so that you do not yourself get skinned alive in a court of law.

 

[spnadmin]

Suntink ji

OK! I have read the Time Magazine article. Are you ready and willing for me to go through it one point at a time?

 

[Suntink]

Wow,

Sat Sri Akal, Everyone

An attorney would not just sign any paper when they do not have any evidence. (aad002) I do not want to debate with you the Time magazine news article. Are you suggesting that anyone can make ANY claim and go to a court. I’ve spoken with a Police officer about this and they told me no one can just make up stories to a US court. And have it posted on a site like rickross.com. Rick Ross which is a full professional institution. The Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey for the Study of Destructive Cults, Controversial Groups and Movements is entitled to the public to have correct information. This website can be sewed and severely criticized if it provides blatantly false and misleading information as you claim it does.


As Yogi Bhajan himself would say "Wake Up!"

This is TIME Magazine, why don't you write to Time Magazine and see what They have to say if you do not agree.

How come with some people you need such big explanations. I clearly know the enough about the court of law you have no reason to tell me I would get skinned alive in one. Are you saying any innocent person can be skinned alive in a court if they do not know anything about it. That’s not a very patriotic thing to say about the American legal system. The US is not such a corrupt country every person has rights as “We the People”. What about the Sikh code of conduct?
Putting on religious robes, they act so clever,
ਮਾਇਆਮੋਹਿਅਤਿਭਰਮਿਭੁਲਾਈ॥
माइआमोहिअतिभरमिभुलाई॥
Mā▫i▫ā mohi aṯ bẖaram bẖulā▫ī.
but they are totally deluded by doubt and emotional attachment to Maya.
Guru Amar Das Page 230, Line 15

This gurbani really inspires me. It makes me think about some things.

Do we all know the price of Kundalini Yoga Sessions? I know many people who have been charged way too much.
Do we all know the price of counselling with some 3HO members. I know it very specifically. Do we all know what their counselling consists of? Some people even tell Sikhs that Guru Ram Das was a Raj Yogi (that’s okay but very uncommon) and that we are all Raj Yogis because we follow Guru Ram Das. Why do some Kundalini Yoga classes have huge paintings of Yogi Bhajan at the front?

Look it’s okay to call Guru Ram Das a Raj Yogi but just imagine a boy or girl whose parents are from India and their family has been Sikhs for 100s of years. And they’re parents have never even heard the words Kundalini Yoga, Raj Yogi, Kundalini Energy, Adi Shakti, Ong namo Guru Dev Namo. They have never for 100s of years had a vegetarian in their family, had a person practice Yoga in their family, worship Guru Ram Das, believe in spiritual powers on the Earth. This isn’t just 3HO some website do not even allow people to debate the vegetarian diet when I know over 100 Punjabi Sikhs whose families for over 100 years have been Sikh and no one in their family has been a vegetarian. Do these websites (not Sikhism.us) suggest that all these people are not following Sikhi properly. I think most people know for themselves what is right or wrong we don’t need webmasters, “Yogi’s” or former hippies telling us what our religion “actually is”. As Sikhs we do not believe in any spiritual enlightenment in the sense that something spiritual happens to you after meditating, or doing yoga. In the sense that you see actually inner light and sound current that Yogi Bhajan explained to his Yoga student. Read the book by Darshan Khalsa “Yoga Secrets for Business Success.” Sikhs do not believe in spiritual powers and Mr. Darshan Khalsa claims that one can attain these powers through Kundalini Yoga. So shouldn’t Sikhs be doing other forms of Yoga which do not make these claims.

Do we all know why Miri Piri Academy has a WALL sized photo of Yogi Bhajan in one of the auditoriums.




It is so shocking to me how writing something as simple as this can be seen as offensive and rude to some of the people associated in 3HO. What is there that can personally offend you. Why do you people have to continuously find their way with words around things. I was told by a man who travelled with Yogi Bhajan that Sikhs wear white because it represents purity. I did not tell him at the time, but look around walk into Punjab no one wears only white except for the 3HO members and only some of them too.

Sikhism is not a mystery. We all should know what our religion is. Yes anyone can convert to it. Yes by law people can practice it how they want but typically when a group dramatically changes its teachings that part of the group goes under a different name. Like Protestants and Catholics.

This proves what it proves. Just read the Time Article. Yogi Bhajan himself did not deny any of these accusations and he did not comment to Time magazine or give any interview later on.
Is Time magazine really a magazine a magazine that would make up so many lies. You obviously have not really read the article it did not say that Yogi Bhajan committed any crime.
When has a Sikh leader ever took baths with many different women?
The article quotes:
“Colleen Hoskins, who worked seven months at his New Mexico residence, reports that men are scarcely seen there. He is served, she says, by a coterie of as many as 14 women, some of whom attend his baths, give him group massages, and take turns spending the night in his room while his wife sleeps elsewhere.
Colleen and her husband Philip, Bhajan's former chancellor, who quit last year, say they could no longer countenance Bhajan's luxurious life-style when so many of his followers had to scrimp along.” Time Magazine
Look, no one has to agree with me. If you know about the law system in most modern countries you can practice almost any way you want. I am not saying people who do not follow Sikhi correctly will be punished, or that they are bad people. I can imagine some people in 3HO do work hard and care about others.

So once again, I have no intention to be rude to any 3HO member. I do not say who is and who is not a Sikh, I am discussing the principles of Sikhism, the philosophy of Sikhism. That is what I am discussing. It’s not logical for me or anyone on any website to tell you if you are a Sikh because you do not have any evidence that they are one themselves.

So please, I do not make things up and I am not illiterate in about law or Sikhi. I am just writing the truth in my perspective.
Thanks and once again I see everyone as equal and pure in the eyes of God. I do not say that someone is a true Sikh and someone is a false Sikh just that these are the original Sikh Principles that the Gurus intended us to follow.

 

[Joginder Singh Foley]

Should not we be moving on from yogi[and all the rest of his names]bhajan as Yaheguru called him on to the next cycle about five years ago and seeing what happens to the 3ho sikhs without yogi bhajan's influence And also remember that not all "white sikhs" including me Joginder Singh foley are not 3ho as i for one did not come to Sikhi via 3ho I for one could never get the yoga thing that 3ho are in to especially after what i have read in SGGS about yoga

 

[spnadmin]

Joginder ji

"Ditto"

I still have to critique that article in Time Mag, though. It is full of problems.

 

[pk70]

In the beginning I used to feel thankful to Yogi ji for spreading Guru Message right here in U.S; one day, in Los Angeles Times I saw a picture of small girl rubbing feet of Yogi Ji. That was the last day I ever paid any attention to him or his activities. Just my own reaction!

 

[Joginder Singh Foley]

Pk70 ji You will find that many non Sikhs come to Sikh without the aid of Yogi{and all of his other names}Bhajan and 3ho i know that as i am one such White Sikh who did not need Yogi Bhajan and 3ho to help me on the path of Sikhi it was Vaheguru not Yogi Bhajan that showed this White Sikh the true path of Sikhi :happy:

 

[pk70]

Pk70 ji You will find that many non Sikhs come to Sikh without the aid of Yogi{and all of his other names}Bhajan and 3ho i know that as i am one such White Sikh who did not need Yogi Bhajan and 3ho to help me on the path of Sikhi it was Vaheguru not Yogi Bhajan that showed this White Sikh the true path of Sikhi :happy:

Joginder Singh Foley Ji

Of course you are a good example of those who have embraced the true Sikh religion without any contamination, now nothing can detour you from Guru Path. I applaud and solute you!

 

[Coetgan]

Re: Yogi Bajan and 3HO

I wandered into this post because a friend is setting up a meeting with Yogi Bhajan's son. Having lived in New Mexico for many years, I remember the uninformed in Santa Fe calling the Sikh community in Espanola diaper heads. Rumors were, they shot off guns in the desert. One of the posts (by AAD002?) gives a very realistic picture of who Yogi Bhajan was, in regards to his worldliness. He was well connected with politicians, and a very successful businessman.
Yet he has made a strong and mostly positive impact on the world. I have done some years with a very traditional Rinzai Zen master, some years with an eclectic teacher who taught Taoism, the Shaivite practices associated with Swami Rudrananda (Rudi), Tantric Tibetan Buddhism, and was initiated two years ago to give deeksha, at the Oneness University north of Chennai. After these adventures in spiritual systems, I am more inclined to be tolerant of Yogi Bhajan's style. It seems more important to observe whether a teaching or teacher works for those who follow him/her/it, than concern ourselves on whether it is right according to some morality we ascribe to.
What is there to argue about? The rigid interpretation of the "correct" way to live or appreciate the divine that is immanent in this world, is simply a game of the mind. All practices exist to encourage and empower us to become more truly who we are already. Who we are is not religious, and has no particular culture or practices. The truth reveals itself moment by moment. Those who claim to know truth, and quote scriptures of any kind, just create confusion, vainly attempting to control a world that is beyond our ability to "know". Perhaps Yogi Bhajan is exactly the right teacher for many people, even as he is not the right teacher for others. You are correct to look for the truth and do your own research. From what you say, you do not need to seek a teacher at all. The guru is within, the scholars on this site will affirm that. At times we may need an outer guru, and certain practices may or may not be helpful. Who's to say? We already know the truth, but it hides in the very search for the Truth. We know our way, but slick salesmen from the deluded society in which we live have sold us other truths, which lead us away from our Selves.
My two cents.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Yogi Bajan and 3HO

Coetgan ji

Please allow me to respond first with this quote from Joginder ji

"Should not we be moving on from yogi[and all the rest of his names]bhajan as Yaheguru called him on to the next cycle about five years ago and seeing what happens to the 3ho Sikhs without yogi bhajan's influence And also remember that not all "white Sikhs" including me Joginder Singh foley are not 3ho as i for one did not come to Sikhi via 3ho I for one could never get the yoga thing that 3ho are in to especially after what i have read in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji about yoga "

Like Joginder ji -- I never got the yoga thing either, though I tried. And I am not 3HO... But...

Here is why I want to start with that quote. It is time to move on -- on from the early years of the 3HO organization. The organization is Yogi Bhajan's legacy. They have established a worldwide presence in the media, commerce, research, medicine, art, music and international seva. Millions of people read the sikhnet.com web site daily, and I am one of them. The resources that are gathered there are remarkable if only in breadth and number.

The 3HO Sikhs are now in their 2nd and 3rd generation of followers. And as one who follows their evolution it is evident that within that "sect" or "movement" already an extraordinary degree of diversity exists as well as tolerance for all the many expressions of Sikhism. Watching the Sunday gurdwara service by internet last week I saw Sikhs in full white bani, traditional salwar kameez, in jeans and sweatshirts, in dastar and not, keshdhari and not, American born and Asian. This suggests to me that a level of emotional and religious maturity has been reached.

The katha is often a recording of a Yogi Bhajan audio lecture. This last week, the katha was entitled Merits and Demerits. In it, Yogi Bhajan himself said that clinging to yoga practice and searching for a guru tells him that "you just don't have it." And by that he meant, that the change must come from within the heart of an individual -- yoga and gurus not withstanding. In fact, he was harsh in his criticism of seekers after babas. I of course am oversimplifying his message.

The organization is misunderstood and Yogi's memory is continually taxed by internet rumors (that are stale and untested). The actual evidence leads me in another direction. Yogi Bhajan, for whatever and all of his failings as a human being, came to the US at the height of the "free drugs/free sex/free expression/anything goes movement, was greeted by a large number of young people who realized they were standing on shaky ground, and he straightened them out. Today they prosper. They have their own way of doing things -- in some ways they vary from the rehat -- but then Yogi had a lot to say about SGPC in that lecture too.

So everyone has to decide for himself. But I say it is time to move on and engage the 3HO organization for who they are now in real time.

 

[pk70]

Re: Yogi Bajan and 3HO

Coetgan ji

Please allow me to respond first with this quote from Joginder ji

"Should not we be moving on from yogi[and all the rest of his names]bhajan as Yaheguru called him on to the next cycle about five years ago and seeing what happens to the 3ho Sikhs without yogi bhajan's influence And also remember that not all "white Sikhs" including me Joginder Singh foley are not 3ho as i for one did not come to Sikhi via 3ho I for one could never get the yoga thing that 3ho are in to especially after what i have read in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji about yoga "

Like Joginder ji -- I never got the yoga thing either, though I tried. And I am not 3HO... But...

Here is why I want to start with that quote. It is time to move on -- on from the early years of the 3HO organization. The organization is Yogi Bhajan's legacy. They have established a worldwide presence in the media, commerce, research, medicine, art, music and international seva. Millions of people read the sikhnet.com web site daily, and I am one of them. The resources that are gathered there are remarkable if only in breadth and number.

The 3HO Sikhs are now in their 2nd and 3rd generation of followers. And as one who follows their evolution it is evident that within that "sect" or "movement" already an extraordinary degree of diversity exists as well as tolerance for all the many expressions of Sikhism. Watching the Sunday gurdwara service by internet last week I saw Sikhs in full white bani, traditional salwar kameez, in jeans and sweatshirts, in dastar and not, keshdhari and not, American born and Asian. This suggests to me that a level of emotional and religious maturity has been reached.

The katha is often a recording of a Yogi Bhajan audio lecture. This last week, the katha was entitled Merits and Demerits. In it, Yogi Bhajan himself said that clinging to yoga practice and searching for a guru tells him that "you just don't have it." And by that he meant, that the change must come from within the heart of an individual -- yoga and gurus not withstanding. In fact, he was harsh in his criticism of seekers after babas. I of course am oversimplifying his message.

The organization is misunderstood and Yogi's memory is continually taxed by internet rumors (that are stale and untested). The actual evidence leads me in another direction. Yogi Bhajan, for whatever and all of his failings as a human being, came to the US at the height of the "free drugs/free sex/free expression/anything goes movement, was greeted by a large number of young people who realized they were standing on shaky ground, and he straightened them out. Today they prosper. They have their own way of doing things -- in some ways they vary from the rehat -- but then Yogi had a lot to say about SGPC in that lecture too.

So everyone has to decide for himself. But I say it is time to move on and engage the 3HO organization for who they are now in real time.

I agree.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Accept what is Gurmatt..the "GURU's MATT"..and leave the rest...ManMatt.
Nobody can be perfect..as humans we all err...ONLY the CREATOR..the GURU... is error free...
Bhullan andar sabh ko..abhull Guru Kartaar..
Certainly everyone does have something good to learn from..even Yogi Bhajan..I like much about him...but long ago discarded what i dont like about him....
So MANY of those i know..got the inspiration to TIE Dastaars from looking at photos of Yogi bahjans Singhhaniah followers..they saw that tying a dastaar for a female Kaur is dignified and wonderful...and such role models among PUNJABI SIKHS are as rare as needles in a haystack...BUT among Western Sikhs..these are the MAJORITY...so for ME personally they have lots to TEACH ME..a Punjabi Sikh born into Sikhism...whereas Punjabi Sikhs born sikhs are desertign the Dastaar in their thousands daily..these followers of Yogi are tying Dastaars in their thousands....:happy::welcome:

 

[Coetgan]

Re: Yogi Bajan and 3HO

I agree.

I also agree 100%. Let us each follow our own heart, and our own path. I leave this world of Sikhs with best wishes for you all. We are all human beings, dipping one toe into all infinity, and one toe into the human world.

 

[NavjeetSingh]

Sherab we are talking about SSS Harbhajan Singh Yogi ( Yogi Bhajan ) and not his website..


You need to do some homework.

Just do what yogi bhajan told for about 30-40 days. If your mind bends more towards Sikhism... yogi bhajan has done nothing wrong.

Listen to his videos on youtube and try to understand and do stand under it, you will come to know what he talks about .

SGGS says all paths are equal. The point is - battle is to be won, no matter which way you take to win it. The battle is to achive salvation by any means. Of course not by using violent methods/ harming others. As some Islamist groups try to do so in the name of Islam and do try to corrupt the teachings of Islam.

I would like to debate with you.