A Conscious Creator In Sikhi And Other Faith Traditions?

[Tejwant Singh]

Ambarsaria Ji

Might I humbly add "and spiritual experience/awareness" to the above -- the context from which Gurbani was written. To truly understand the intention of Guru Ji we would need to share that as well.

Without that we are all, to one degree or another, like a blind person striving to understand colour.

Akiva

Akiva ji,

Guru Fateh.

That is an interesting outlook and a valid one. Could you please elaborate your thought on what is in bold above and its modus operandi?

1.How can one share one's personal experience of one's inner spiritual treasures on the internet to the faceless world?

2. One's awareness in what respect?

3. How does one go about finding our Gurus' intentions and/or of all the other writers of Gurbani in the SGGS?

4. Lastly, how can one use that experience and awareness learnt through Gurbani to enhance one's everyday's life?

Input from all would be highly appreciated.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[akiva]

Tejwant Ji
Guru Fateh

The first "given" is that Spiritual experiences and awareness change how one perceives the world. The degree of that change is proportional to the degree of the experience.

The second given is that Gurbani was written/taught by people who had undergone that change.

Akiva ji,

Guru Fateh.

That is an interesting outlook and a valid one. Could you please elaborate your thought on what is in bold above and its modus operandi?

1.How can one share one's personal experience of one's inner spiritual treasures on the internet to the faceless world?

the "quick" answer is that one can't - because in a real sense it's a non-verbal experience. When talking with another person who has shared that experience one can refer to elements using words (hence the personification and metaphor in Gurbani) and the other person will recognise the context you are refering to.

Hence the importance of Sangat (in it's original intention)

The most we can do to share on the internet (or even in person) is 1) try to describe the experience as simply as possible; 2) more importantly --let the lesson of that experience change us and how we relate/interact with the world/people around us.

(As an aside -- there ARE scientific mappings of the "spiritual experience" space -- Grof is a good place to start.)

2. One's awareness in what respect?

I used "awareness" in the Zen Buddhist sense - both the "self-awareness" and the awareness of the world outside us, that comes when the veil of illusion is stripped away.

As one progresses in meditation/simran/jap one (should) begin to have flashes of that awareness (by analogy -- outside on a dark night, when a flash of lightning briefly illuminates the world around you). As one progresses that awareness happens more often and for longer periods of time.

3. How does one go about finding our Gurus' intentions and/or of all the other writers of Gurbani in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

The simple answer: by growing in Spiritual awareness. As one grows the meaning of Gurbani will reveal itself.

For those of us without that insight: study and contemplation (which is, itself, a form of meditation/simran/jap) can also reveal insights and meaning.

4. Lastly, how can one use that experience and awareness learnt through Gurbani to enhance one's everyday's life?

As we grow it should become harder and harder to do the "wrong" act, and easier to do the "right" act.

But it's not automatic -- as long as we are here the temptations of the world/flesh are there as well.

All the best
Akiva

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I do also observe that the one liner, few words, one shabad pushers are cutting Sikhism at its roots

Veer ji ironically our Mool Mantra is a one liner ,a few words and our root.

Ps I'm biased towards one liners

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

At the Gurdwara last night I noticed on the screen, some words that would assist in this:

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji P. 940
This seems to suggest the creator does not only POSSESS consciousness.... but in fact IS CONSCIOUSNESS.

ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਵੈ ਕਹਾ ਇਹੁ ਜਾਵੈ ਕਹਾ ਇਹੁ ਰਹੈ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ Kahā ṯe āvai kahā ih jāvai kahā ih rahai samā▫ī.
Where did we come from? Where are we going? Where will we be absorbed?
ਏਸੁ ਸਬਦ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਅਰਥਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰ ਤਿਲੁ ਨ ਤਮਾਈ ॥ Ės sabaḏ ka▫o jo arthāvai ṯis gur ṯil na ṯamā▫ī.
One who reveals the meaning of this Shabad is the Guru, who has no greed at all.
ਕਿਉ ਤਤੈ ਅਵਿਗਤੈ ਪਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਲਗੈ ਪਿਆਰੋ ॥ Ki▫o ṯaṯai avigaṯai pāvai gurmukẖ lagai pi▫āro.
How can one find the essence of the unmanifest reality? How does one become Gurmukh, and enshrine love for the Lord?
ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੀਚਾਰੋ ॥ Āpe surṯā āpe karṯā kaho Nānak bīcẖāro.
He Himself is consciousness, He Himself is the Creator; share with us, Nanak, your wisdom.
ਹੁਕਮੇ ਆਵੈ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਜਾਵੈ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਰਹੈ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ Hukme āvai hukme jāvai hukme rahai samā▫ī.
By His Command we come, and by His Command we go; by His Command, we merge in absorption.
ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਗਤਿ ਮਿਤਿ ਸਬਦੇ ਪਾਈ ॥੨੨॥ Pūre gur ṯe sācẖ kamāvai gaṯ miṯ sabḏe pā▫ī. ||22||
Through the Perfect Guru, live the Truth; through the Word of the Shabad, the state of dignity is attained. ||22||

and
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji P.997 (I didn't quote the whole thing because there really is no other way to interpret the words 'supreme consciousness' however I put the page so that you can read the whole thing yourself.)

ਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥ Gur purkẖai purakẖ milā▫e parabẖ mil surṯī suraṯ samāṇī.
The Guru, the Primal Being, has united me with the Primal Lord God. My consciousness has merged into the supreme consciousness.

also

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji P. 1362
Again, it is suggesting that our consciousness can be merged with a 'supreme consciousness' I don't see how the word consciousness can just be a metaphor in these cases. It's pretty straight language... and the meaning is pretty straight forward in suggesting that there is a supreme consciousness.

ਮਿਤ ਕਾ ਚਿਤੁ ਅਨੂਪੁ ਮਰੰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੀਐ ॥ Miṯ kā cẖiṯ anūp maramm na jānī▫ai.
The Consciousness of my Friend is incomparably beautiful. Its mystery cannot be known.
ਗਾਹਕ ਗੁਨੀ ਅਪਾਰ ਸੁ ਤਤੁ ਪਛਾਨੀਐ ॥ Gāhak gunī apār so ṯaṯ pacẖẖānī▫ai.
One who purchases the priceless virtues realizes the essence of reality.
ਚਿਤਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਸਮਾਇ ਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਘਨਾ ॥ Cẖiṯėh cẖiṯ samā▫e ṯa hovai rang gẖanā.
When the consciousness is absorbed in the supreme consciousness, great joy and bliss are found.
ਹਰਿਹਾਂ ਚੰਚਲ ਚੋਰਹਿ ਮਾਰਿ ਤ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸਚੁ ਧਨਾ ॥੧੨॥ Harihāʼn cẖancẖal cẖorėh mār ṯa pāvahi sacẖ ḏẖanā. ||12||
O Lord! When the fickle thieves are overcome, the true wealth is obtained. ||12||

 

[Original]

Hello Harkiran & Balbir - hope you good n living it to the T !

I don't see how the word consciousness can just be a metaphor in these cases

..it's difficult to comment without full coverage, but suffice to say, your observation stands it's ground and is further supported by the term "parm pad". Parm Pad is a state of consciousness that succeeds the three ordinary states. In other words, chautha pad, meaning the fourth state:

ਰਜ ਗੁਣ ਤਮ ਗੁਣ ਸਤ ਗੁਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਭ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੀ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ
Raj gun tam gun sat gun kaheeai ih teri sabh maya. Chauthe pad kau jo nar cheenai tin hee param pad paaiaa ||2||: (O Lord) Raajas, Taamas, and Saatav modes are the creations of Your Maya. The man who realizes the Fourth State; he alone obtains the Supreme Status ||2|| [SGGSJ 1123].

Goodnight !

 

[sukhsingh]

A conscious creator in Sikhi?

I have noticed on here in recent times that some people claim to be Sikh and yet do not believe in a conscious creator, but instead personally interpret Gurbani to be instruction on how to live in harmony with nature / creation and compare Sikhi to Athiesm. But they do not believe in a conscious creator / deity. Others, personify Waheguru as being conscious of creation. I thought this was a good debate… Personally I believe in a conscious creator, not just because of the obvious intelligent design that to me could not just happen by chance, but also from quotes in Gurbani that seem to support ONE supreme conscious creator, from which everything exists in a state of duality from that ONE.

So let’s look at how the creator is described in Gurbani, starting with the Mool Mantra, where it clearly states qualities such as Ik Onkar - ONE God/Creator (Non Duality). Some people chose to translate Onkar as ‘ultimate truth’ and take any persona out of it, however the follow on statements seem to point to a persona: Without Fear, Without Hate for example, while stating the absence of something ‘could’ mean reference to something inanimate, but then why state them at all? You could continue on forever with statements of things that an inanimate universe does not possess. (without jealousy, without anger, without passion, etc ---- without CONSCIOUSNESS) So why use specifics such as ‘hate’ and ‘fear’ if the creator is unconscious?? It doesn’t make sense to me. The only way it makes sense is to say ‘without fear’ … as to specify fearlessness… ‘without hate’ … as to specify loving / compassionate --- these are qualities of a conscious persona, not an unconscious creation / reality that just ‘happened’ without conscious design. Of course there is MUCH deeper meaning in the Mool Mantra and you can read more here: MOOL MANTRA

So basically the Mool Mantra describes the creator… some also say creation… and yes you can go as far to say they are one in the same (as I will explain below) But to say that creation just came about without conscious design doesn’t make sense. And to say that something as abstract as the personal internal world of our consciousness came about as merely an emergent property of an unconscious creation without any intelligent design, just does not make sense! Throw a bunch of golf ***** into a pile and you will only ever have a pile of golf *****... no matter how many you throw there!

In SGGS you will find many references to this reality being a dream.



The use of the term ‘dream’ is interesting because a dream, which requires consciousness to occur, infers a DREAMER. If this reality is a dream and we are within the dream as suggested by the above, then WHO is the dreamer? Certainly not an unconscious creation that just happened on its own! And if we, conscious within the dream, and are able to question our existence… then the dreamer must certainly be conscious as well! Just like when you dream at night, you interact as one character, but in reality ALL the characters are really you. And outside of that dream, you exist as a CONSCIOUS dreamer, maybe not aware that you are dreaming when you are within the dream, but once you awaken, you are very conscious of the dream that took place.

That brings me to another quote:




The above describes the world as a play... similar to a dream. A play must be created, it can not exist without a writer. In the above, the actor is also the writer of the play, and also playing all of the characters within it. This certainly describes a conscious creation to me. Then it goes on to say that once the costumes are removed, there is only ONE. But for the above to occur there had to be a consciousness that staged the play. To me the use of this reference is very supportive of a conscious creator in Sikhi because, a play which was a good comparison in a time before television etc, by its nature is artistic, and requires a mind, an intelligence to create.

So to summarize, my belief is that reality is ONE consciousness, and that ONE is all that really exists. It is formless... pure frequency (as vibration is the basis of everything also supported in science), and is creative and conscious. This reality, this Universe is as a dream - the dream of the creator. As a formless, pure point of consciousness, the only tools you would possess to create would be thought - dreams - creativity. Everything within this creation, being a dream of the ONE universal consciousness, by extension is part of the ONE - everything within the creation IS the ONE. That means there exists fragmented parts of the ONE consciousness within everything and everyone, which is in agreement with Gurbani. To summarize my belief I would say that this reality is the expression of the ONE universal conscious creator, to subjectively experience itself, which it is doing through its own creation. Some people say we are as drops from the ocean that is Waheguru and we need to get back there through discovering the divine within us. In reality, I don't believe we ever left the ocean... we just forget where we were.

So what do you guys believe???

Just read this it is a interesting article but I'm not sure I agree.. Would love to explore it further

 

[namritanevaeh]

A conscious creator in Sikhi?

I have noticed on here in recent times that some people claim to be Sikh and yet do not believe in a conscious creator, but instead personally interpret Gurbani to be instruction on how to live in harmony with nature / creation and compare Sikhi to Athiesm. But they do not believe in a conscious creator / deity. Others, personify Waheguru as being conscious of creation.

One thing for sure. If there is a conscious creator, or we are part of the dream of a master pupeteer, then I personally can't view him or her as conscious (ie cognitive), AND omnipotent and yet also all loving. The 3 don't intersect as far as I'm concerned.

If I were to view a single entity god as the "parent" of all humanity, creating everything and controlling everything, that would mean that that entity not only created Sikhs with their philosophies, it also created Hindus and Muslims and Jews and Christians (etc) and given the religious strife in the world, the number of people who die in the name of religion, that can't be all loving.

THATS like a parent pitting their children against each other by giving them differing stories, and sitting back with a bowl of popcorn while they argue and kill each other off in the name of religion. There is no way I can equate that with "all loving" at all.

Therefore, I surmise that any god that could exist is potentially omnipotent in the sense of power that can be unleashed in a tornado. Even the powerful fragility of a butterfly's wings, and yet that being would have to be lacking in cognitive thought. Therefore any arguing over religion and other stuff would be not its "fault".

My other alternatives for gods is either polytheism and they admit their faults or "human like flaws", and a lack of complete omnipotence, or a complete lack of God whatsoever.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

One thing for sure. If there is a conscious creator, or we are part of the dream of a master pupeteer, then I personally can't view him or her as conscious (ie cognitive), AND omnipotent and yet also all loving. The 3 don't intersect as far as I'm concerned.

If I were to view a single entity god as the "parent" of all humanity, creating everything and controlling everything, that would mean that that entity not only created Sikhs with their philosophies, it also created Hindus and Muslims and Jews and Christians (etc) and given the religious strife in the world, the number of people who die in the name of religion, that can't be all loving.

THATS like a parent pitting their children against each other by giving them differing stories, and sitting back with a bowl of popcorn while they argue and kill each other off in the name of religion. There is no way I can equate that with "all loving" at all.

Therefore, I surmise that any god that could exist is potentially omnipotent in the sense of power that can be unleashed in a tornado. Even the powerful fragility of a butterfly's wings, and yet that being would have to be lacking in cognitive thought. Therefore any arguing over religion and other stuff would be not its "fault".

My other alternatives for gods is either polytheism and they admit their faults or "human like flaws", and a lack of complete omnipotence, or a complete lack of God whatsoever.

I view Creator in a different way. The way you describe above, intimates that Creator is SEPARATE from creation. As in a different entity (meaning both entity as an individual but also entity as an organization). Something away or apart from us. This is not how I see God.

Is a dreamer capable of being omnipotent (insofar as the dream is concerned?) being master or puppeteer the dreamer is the one who is coordinating the entire dream, creating every element within their own mind. Love is an emotion which implies duality (love vs hate). That means it falls WITHIN the dream and not outside of it (outside the dream there is only one dreamer so how could one either love or hate ‘itself’??? It knows no other and yet ALL others. Therefore human emotion is inconsequatial. The Creator creates, just as the dreamer dreams, the canvas being within themselves. God to me, is not some separate deity sitting ‘somewhere else’ apart from me. Instead, my body, my physical reality, my emotions, my actions are all contained within the dream of the Creator. They ultimately are not real. What IS real, is the I AM behind my body. That conscious awareness of BEING. That I AM just IS. It must originate from outside the dream or else there is nobody to experience the dream. That awareness of being, existing. That is actually the same ONE awareness within ALL beings who exist within the dream. But there is only one dreamer. That dreamer is God. Therefore the awareness in ALL is actually God. So you can see how I view Creator is much different than a separate entity who exists ‘somewhere else’ overseeing things as a parent...

You can dream tonight that there is a tornado and everyone in X town dies. Now, did YOU the dreamer show a lack of love by creating that tornado in your dream? WHO if anyone are you lacking to show love for? Dream characters? They never truly existed. You created them in your mind. But they DID exist... however YOU were the consciousness who was controlling those characters. They were YOU. All of them!

Gurbani doesn’t teach that Creation is actually separate from Creator. It teaches they are one and the same. That this world is a dream, an illusion. That Akal Purakh IS the chess board, the pieces, and the player all at once. That Creation emerged from the light (or illumination -> consciousness of God) and that the light (or illumination -> consciousness of God) is within All of Creation. The word ‘jot’ meaning literal ‘light’ can mean light as opposed to darkness which implies duality (and a need for physical eyes to ‘see’ in a physical sense), but can also mean metaphorically ‘knowledge’ or ‘awareness’. We all know and understand the meaning of when someone becomes enlightened, or sees the light. We don’t mean literal light as in opposed to darkness, we mean they have had conscious realization or a new awareness. When Gurbani speaks about the light of Akal Purakh being within all of creation it’s speaking of the primal knowledge of our true identity. That we are, the dreamer.

 

[InduBhushanDas]

Let me explain my view on conscious creator. I am vaishnava (devotee of Krishna), so naturally we accept that "Krishnas tu Bhagavan swayam" - "It is Krishna, but not others, is Supreme Personality of Godhead, creator ". Krishna is primary crator, while there are others.

In sikhism you also use words like Bhagavan, Parabrahman, Paramatma (also in this thread). We believe that long time ago, millions of lifetimes ago we descended (fell down) from Vaikuntha (spiritul world, spiritual eternal planets where Krishna-Narayana lives) - into this samsara, world of reincarnation.

The first life in material world is on level of Lord Brahma. It looks like not every Brahma is devotee of Krishna/Vishnu, but in our universe Brahma is a devotee. Brahma is secondary creator. You say "lord created in his image" - true, Krishna created us to become Lords Brahmas. so, Krishna expands as Balarama/Baladeva, from last expands chaturvyuha - Sankarshana, Pradyuman, Aniruddha and Vasudeva. Fromvyuha expands Narayana. Narayana is the Paramatma or Supersoul of all spiritual world, Vaikuntha. then from Narayan expands second chaturvyuha (four Lords). thn from vyuha expands Maha-Vishnu. Maha-vishnu is a supersoul of all brahmandas which are material universes.

From Mahavishnu when he breathes out expand millions of brahmandas, and into each He enters as Garbhodakashayi-Vishnu. THat Vishnu lies on Garbhodaka ocean, and from navel of Vishnu grows huge lotus (in Bible that is said on 3rd day plants are created - lotuses from Vishnus).

In each lotus there are "seeds of planets/stars", so Brahma, after being born on lotus, takes those seeds, and on 4th day of creation (of Bible), he creates planets, stars, moon etc.

Thus Brahma is 2ndary creator. yes, he is in golden egg (brahma-anda- egg of Brahma).

Ek omkan is different. that seems to mean nirgun and sagun Brahman.

God is realized in 3 steps: Brahman, then higher level is paramatma, and highest is Bhagavan ...

Omkar is more or less impersonal idea, but still Om is God as person (trimurti - VIshnu, Brahma plus Shiva).
it doesn't ever mean that God was at first impersonal and then becomes a person. never. God is always a person.

The two features of god are person and impersonal rays.

if we call God Brahman or Parabrahman, we mean person - Vishnu, Krishna, Narayana, etc (any avatar of Vishnu).

but impersonal god means just rays of Brahman - brahma(n)jyoti (jyoti means rays).

those who think god is impersonal, they realize only impersonal brahmajyoti rays. they don't know about Goloka -eternal planet of Krishna or about Vaikuntha of Narayana.

but those who realize Paramatma -they realize Vishnu or Narayana, and can reach Vaikuntha.

those who realize Bhagavan Krishna - reach Him, highest planet of Vaikuntha - Goloka Vrindavana.

in sikhism there is aplace for people of all three levels - those who realize Brahman only, and for Paramatma-realized, and for Bhagavan realized (personalists).

realization of Brahman is for jnanis (philosophers, speculators).realization of Paramatma is for yogis. Paramatma is supreme soul in heart/soul of everyone.

and Bhagavan is for bhakti-yogis - devotees of Lord Krishna/Vishnu

see story of Brahma creating universe in Shrimad-bhagavatam:
vanisource.org/wiki/SB_3.8:_Manifestation_of_Brahma_from_Garbhodakasayi_Visnu
vanisource.org/wiki/SB_3.9:_Brahma%27s_Prayers_for_Creative_Energy
vanisource.org/wiki/SB_3.10:_Divisions_of_the_Creation

 

[Sikhilove]

A conscious creator in Sikhi?

I have noticed on here in recent times that some people claim to be Sikh and yet do not believe in a conscious creator, but instead personally interpret Gurbani to be instruction on how to live in harmony with nature / creation and compare Sikhi to Athiesm. But they do not believe in a conscious creator / deity. Others, personify Waheguru as being conscious of creation. I thought this was a good debate… Personally I believe in a conscious creator, not just because of the obvious intelligent design that to me could not just happen by chance, but also from quotes in Gurbani that seem to support ONE supreme conscious creator, from which everything exists in a state of duality from that ONE.

So let’s look at how the creator is described in Gurbani, starting with the Mool Mantra, where it clearly states qualities such as Ik Onkar - ONE God/Creator (Non Duality). Some people chose to translate Onkar as ‘ultimate truth’ and take any persona out of it, however the follow on statements seem to point to a persona: Without Fear, Without Hate for example, while stating the absence of something ‘could’ mean reference to something inanimate, but then why state them at all? You could continue on forever with statements of things that an inanimate universe does not possess. (without jealousy, without anger, without passion, etc ---- without CONSCIOUSNESS) So why use specifics such as ‘hate’ and ‘fear’ if the creator is unconscious?? It doesn’t make sense to me. The only way it makes sense is to say ‘without fear’ … as to specify fearlessness… ‘without hate’ … as to specify loving / compassionate --- these are qualities of a conscious persona, not an unconscious creation / reality that just ‘happened’ without conscious design. Of course there is MUCH deeper meaning in the Mool Mantra and you can read more here: MOOL MANTRA

So basically the Mool Mantra describes the creator… some also say creation… and yes you can go as far to say they are one in the same (as I will explain below) But to say that creation just came about without conscious design doesn’t make sense. And to say that something as abstract as the personal internal world of our consciousness came about as merely an emergent property of an unconscious creation without any intelligent design, just does not make sense! Throw a bunch of golf ***** into a pile and you will only ever have a pile of golf *****... no matter how many you throw there!

In SGGS you will find many references to this reality being a dream.



The use of the term ‘dream’ is interesting because a dream, which requires consciousness to occur, infers a DREAMER. If this reality is a dream and we are within the dream as suggested by the above, then WHO is the dreamer? Certainly not an unconscious creation that just happened on its own! And if we, conscious within the dream, and are able to question our existence… then the dreamer must certainly be conscious as well! Just like when you dream at night, you interact as one character, but in reality ALL the characters are really you. And outside of that dream, you exist as a CONSCIOUS dreamer, maybe not aware that you are dreaming when you are within the dream, but once you awaken, you are very conscious of the dream that took place.

That brings me to another quote:




The above describes the world as a play... similar to a dream. A play must be created, it can not exist without a writer. In the above, the actor is also the writer of the play, and also playing all of the characters within it. This certainly describes a conscious creation to me. Then it goes on to say that once the costumes are removed, there is only ONE. But for the above to occur there had to be a consciousness that staged the play. To me the use of this reference is very supportive of a conscious creator in Sikhi because, a play which was a good comparison in a time before television etc, by its nature is artistic, and requires a mind, an intelligence to create.

So to summarize, my belief is that reality is ONE consciousness, and that ONE is all that really exists. It is formless... pure frequency (as vibration is the basis of everything also supported in science), and is creative and conscious. This reality, this Universe is as a dream - the dream of the creator. As a formless, pure point of consciousness, the only tools you would possess to create would be thought - dreams - creativity. Everything within this creation, being a dream of the ONE universal consciousness, by extension is part of the ONE - everything within the creation IS the ONE. That means there exists fragmented parts of the ONE consciousness within everything and everyone, which is in agreement with Gurbani. To summarize my belief I would say that this reality is the expression of the ONE universal conscious creator, to subjectively experience itself, which it is doing through its own creation. Some people say we are as drops from the ocean that is Waheguru and we need to get back there through discovering the divine within us. In reality, I don't believe we ever left the ocean... we just forget where we were.

So what do you guys believe???

Lol yep I agree.

I think we all forgot. I'm just beginning to remember again.

Satnaam. Naam is the only True Lover. This is what we forgot.

Your post is in agreement with Gurbani, Gurbani tells us all of this but we fail to accept it. Our beloved Gurus wanted us to remember.

 

[Sikhilove]

Re: A Conscious Creator in Sikhi and Other Faith Traditions ?

I'm eagre to get into this thread when I have some time (I would like to contemplate it here at work but I don't think my boss would like that!).

Meanwhile, just soundbytes from me.



Is a tree conscious?

A tree grows the way it is programmed (by its evolved DNA) to grow. It may appear to be conscious because of the mechanisms within it which are triggered by certain events like day/night and seasons. But I wouldn't call this 'consciousness'.

I know it's impossible to define but if we're to try and talk about the 'consciousness' of the Creator I would say it's closer to a tree's "appearence of consciousness" than to an animal's.

Rehras Sahib is pounding in my brain right about now:

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:


ਸੁਣਿ ਵਡਾ ਆਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
Suṇ vadā ākẖai sabẖ ko▫e.
Hearing of His Greatness, everyone calls Him Great.


ਕੇਵਡੁ ਵਡਾ ਡੀਠਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
Kevad vadā dīṯẖā ho▫e.
But just how Great His Greatness is-this is known only to those who have seen Him.


ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
Kīmaṯ pā▫e na kahi▫ā jā▫e.
His Value cannot be estimated; He cannot be described.


ਕਹਣੈ ਵਾਲੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਰਹੇ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥
Kahṇai vāle ṯere rahe samā▫e. ||1||
Those who describe You, Lord, remain immersed and absorbed in You. ||1||


ਵਡੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਾਹਿਬਾ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰਾ ਗੁਣੀ ਗਹੀਰਾ ॥
vade mere sāhibā gahir gambẖīrā guṇī gahīrā.
O my Great Lord and Master of Unfathomable Depth, You are the Ocean of Excellence.


ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਤਾ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਚੀਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Ko▫e na jāṇai ṯerā keṯā kevad cẖīrā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
No one knows the extent or the vastness of Your Expanse. ||1||Pause||


ਸਭਿ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਕਮਾਈ ॥
Sabẖ surṯī mil suraṯ kamā▫ī.
All the intuitives met and practiced intuitive meditation.


ਸਭ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
Sabẖ kīmaṯ mil kīmaṯ pā▫ī.
All the appraisers met and made the appraisal.


ਗਿਆਨੀ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰਹਾਈ ॥
Gi▫ānī ḏẖi▫ānī gur gurhā▫ī.
The spiritual teachers, the teachers of meditation, and the teachers of teachers -


ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਤੇਰੀ ਤਿਲੁ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥੨॥
Kahaṇ na jā▫ī ṯerī ṯil vadi▫ā▫ī. ||2||
they cannot describe even an iota of Your Greatness. ||2||


ਸਭਿ ਸਤ ਸਭਿ ਤਪ ਸਭਿ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ॥
Sabẖ saṯ sabẖ ṯap sabẖ cẖang▫ā▫ī▫ā.
All Truth, all austere discipline, all goodness,


ਸਿਧਾ ਪੁਰਖਾ ਕੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ॥
Siḏẖā purkẖā kī▫ā vaḏi▫ā▫ī▫ā.
all the great miraculous spiritual powers of the Siddhas -


ਤੁਧੁ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਿਧੀ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ॥
Ŧuḏẖ viṇ siḏẖī kinai na pā▫ī▫ā.
without You, no one has attained such powers.


ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਈਆ ॥੩॥
Karam milai nāhī ṯẖāk rahā▫ī▫ā. ||3||
They are received only by Your Grace. No one can block them or stop their flow. ||3||


ਆਖਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਕਿਆ ਵੇਚਾਰਾ ॥
Ākẖaṇ vālā ki▫ā vecẖārā.
What can the poor helpless creatures do?


ਸਿਫਤੀ ਭਰੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭੰਡਾਰਾ ॥
Sifṯī bẖare ṯere bẖandārā.
Your Praises are overflowing with Your Treasures.



ਜਿਸੁ ਤੂ ਦੇਹਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਕਿਆ ਚਾਰਾ ॥
Jis ṯū ḏėh ṯisai ki▫ā cẖārā.
Those, unto whom You give-how can they think of any other?


ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਸਵਾਰਣਹਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੨॥
Nānak sacẖ savāraṇhārā. ||4||2||
O Nanak, the True One embellishes and exalts. ||4||2||


​

This may be getting a bit off-topic but I'd say we can talk and talk and contemplate and ponder but it's only our personal experiences with this 'Creator', our 'intuitive sehaj understanding' that we'll come anywhere close to having an understanding, and then we can't explain it in words anyway, like trying to explain a taste to someone who hasn't tasted something before.

Perhaps we are all indeed on the same page but we just can't express it?

It depends on whether u believe a tree has a soul, a spiritual heart. And whether this has an affect on how it grows and its appearance, on hukam etc.

 

[Ishna]

It depends on whether u believe a tree has a soul, a spiritual heart. And whether this has an affect on how it grows and its appearance, on hukam etc.

How so?

 

[Sikhilove]

How so?

I was referring to the way you said a tree is programmed by its DNA to grow.

Humans have the ability to change their posture and some argue to even alter their looks with their minds and souls.

Trees have souls, perhaps they are of similar capability. Who knows? God is capable of all things..

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I was referring to the way you said a tree is programmed by its DNA to grow.

Humans have the ability to change their posture and some argue to even alter their looks with their minds and souls.

Trees have souls, perhaps they are of similar capability. Who knows? God is capable of all things..

It’s proven trees communicate through root systems and have a ‘memory’ of sorts. They can also move to avoid harm and when electrodes applied there was shown they react to pain.

 

[Ishna]

It’s proven trees communicate through root systems and have a ‘memory’ of sorts. They can also move to avoid harm and when electrodes applied there was shown they react to pain.

You can also put them to sleep with ether!