A Conscious Creator In Sikhi And Other Faith Traditions?

[Tejwant Singh]

It seems to me that we are all upside down in this discussion. It matters naught if Ik Ong Kaar is conscious or not, but it only matters how conscious we are of Ik Ong Kaar.

Isn't this the whole journey of a Sikh?

 

[Ambarsaria]

Let us review in completeness the shabad that Harmanpreet Singh ji has posted in this thread.

ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Sūhī mėhlā 5.
ਸੂਹੀ ਪੰਜਵੀਂ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ।

ਉਮਕਿਓ ਹੀਉ ਮਿਲਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾਈ ॥ ਖੋਜਤ ਚਰਿਓ ਦੇਖਉ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਜਾਈ ॥
Umki▫o hī▫o milan parabẖ ṯā▫ī. Kẖojaṯ cẖari▫o ḏekẖ▫a▫u pari▫a jā▫ī.
ਮੇਰਾ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਣ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ੀ ਨਾਲ ਨੱਚ ਪਿਆ, (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ) ਲੱਭਣ ਚੜ੍ਹ ਪਿਆ (ਕਿ) ਮੈਂ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਦੇ ਰਹਿਣ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ (ਕਿਤੇ) ਵੇਖਾਂ।
Happily ebullient the heart to meet the creator. Pursuing to search the place of abode of the loved one.

ਸੁਨਤ ਸਦੇਸਰੋ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਸੇਜ ਵਿਛਾਈ ॥ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਆਇਓ ਤਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
Sunaṯ saḏesro pari▫a garihi sej vicẖẖā▫ī. Bẖaram bẖaram ā▫i▫o ṯa▫o naḏar na pā▫ī. ||1||
ਹੇ ਸਖੀ! ਪਿਆਰੇ ਦਾ ਸਨੇਹਾ ਸੁਣਦਿਆਂ ਮੈਂ ਹਿਰਦੇ-ਘਰ ਵਿਚ ਸੇਜ ਵਿਛਾ ਦਿੱਤੀ। (ਪਰ) ਭਟਕ ਭਟਕ ਕੇ ਮੁੜ ਆਇਆ, ਤਦੋਂ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮੇਹਰ ਦੀ) ਨਿਗਾਹ ਹਾਸਲ ਨਾਹ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
Hearing the loved one’s message, spread out a comforting bed in the heart. Wandered and wandered returned, did not get a glimpse of so.

ਕਿਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਹੀਅਰੋ ਧੀਰੈ ਨਿਮਾਨੋ ॥ ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਜਨ ਹਉ ਤੁਝੁ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Kin biḏẖ hī▫aro ḏẖīrai nimāno. Mil sājan ha▫o ṯujẖ kurbāno. ||1|| rahā▫o.
ਹੇ ਸੱਜਣ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! (ਮੈਨੂੰ) ਮਿਲ, ਮੈਂ ਤੈਥੋਂ ਸਦਕੇ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹਾਂ। (ਤੇਰੇ ਦਰਸਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਮੇਰਾ ਇਹ ਨਿਮਾਣਾ ਦਿਲ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਧੀਰਜ ਫੜੇ? ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥
What methods can the poor heart hope for. Creator meet me, I am in humble capitulation.

ਏਕਾ ਸੇਜ ਵਿਛੀ ਧਨ ਕੰਤਾ ॥ ਧਨ ਸੂਤੀ ਪਿਰੁ ਸਦ ਜਾਗੰਤਾ ॥
Ėkā sej vicẖẖī ḏẖan kanṯā. Ḏẖan sūṯī pir saḏ jāganṯā.
ਹੇ ਸਖੀ! ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਅਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ ਦੀ ਇਕੋ ਹੀ ਸੇਜ (ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ) ਵਿਛੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ; ਪਰ ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ (ਸਦਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਦੀ ਨੀਂਦ ਵਿਚ) ਸੁੱਤੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ ਸਦਾ ਜਾਗਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਉਤਾਂਹ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ)।
One comfortable bed so spread for the husband lord and spouse. Bride asleep and the loved one always awake.

ਪੀਓ ਮਦਰੋ ਧਨ ਮਤਵੰਤਾ ॥ ਧਨ ਜਾਗੈ ਜੇ ਪਿਰੁ ਬੋਲੰਤਾ ॥੨॥
Pī▫o maḏro ḏẖan maṯvanṯā. Ḏẖan jāgai je pir bolanṯā. ||2||
ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਇਉਂ ਮਸਤ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਇਸ ਨੇ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਪੀਤੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। (ਹਾਂ) ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਜਾਗ ਭੀ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ (ਆਪ) ਜਗਾਏ ॥੨॥
The bride as if intoxicated having consume liquor. The bride does awake if called by the spouse.

ਭਈ ਨਿਰਾਸੀ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਦਿਨ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ ਦੇਸ ਦਿਸੰਤਰ ਮੈ ਸਗਲੇ ਝਾਗੇ ॥
Bẖa▫ī nirāsī bahuṯ ḏin lāge. Ḏes disanṯar mai sagle jẖāge.
ਹੇ ਸਖੀ! (ਉਮਰ ਦੇ) ਬਹੁਤ ਸਾਰੇ ਦਿਨ ਬੀਤ ਗਏ ਹਨ, (ਹੁਣ) ਮੈਂ ਨਿਰਾਸ ਹੋ ਗਈ ਹਾਂ। ਮੈਂ (ਬਾਹਰ) ਹੋਰ ਹੋਰ ਸਾਰੇ ਦੇਸ ਭਾਲ ਵੇਖੇ ਹਨ (ਪਰ ਬਾਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ ਕਿਤੇ ਲੱਭਾ ਨਹੀਂ।)
Am disappointed as many a days have passed. Country and many other countries I have traversed.

ਖਿਨੁ ਰਹਨੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਉ ਬਿਨੁ ਪਗ ਪਾਗੇ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਿਲਹ ਸਭਾਗੇ ॥੩॥
Kẖin rahan na pāva▫o bin pag pāge. Ho▫e kirpāl parabẖ milah sabẖāge. ||3||
ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਛਿਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਭੀ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦੀ। (ਹਾਂ, ਹੇ ਸਖੀ!) ਜੇ ਉਹ ਆਪ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ਹੋਵੇ, ਤਾਂ ਸਹੀ ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਚੰਗੇ ਭਾਗ ਜਾਗਣ ਨਾਲ ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਸਕਦੀਆਂ ਹਾਂ ॥੩॥
Not a moment of peace received without being prone at the feet. If such so blessing, the creator, gained through good fortune.

ਭਇਓ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਸਤਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਬੂਝੀ ਤਪਤਿ ਘਰਹਿ ਪਿਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Bẖa▫i▫o kirpāl saṯsang milā▫i▫ā. Būjẖī ṯapaṯ gẖarėh pir pā▫i▫ā.
ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮੇਰੇ ਉਤੇ ਦਇਆਵਾਨ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਮੈਨੂੰ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਸਤਸੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਮਿਲਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ। ਮੇਰੀ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੀ) ਤਪਸ਼ ਮਿਟ ਗਈ ਹੈ, ਮੈਂ ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ ਨੂੰ ਹਿਰਦੇ-ਘਰ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਲੱਭ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ।
Became so blissful, gained company of the true. The anguish put out, the bridegroom found in own heart.
ਸਗਲ ਸੀਗਾਰ ਹੁਣਿ ਮੁਝਹਿ ਸੁਹਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ ॥੪॥
Sagal sīgār huṇ mujẖėh suhā▫i▫ā. Kaho Nānak gur bẖaram cẖukā▫i▫ā. ||4||
ਹੁਣ ਮੈਨੂੰ (ਆਪਣੇ) ਸਾਰੇ ਸਿੰਗਾਰ (ਉੱਦਮ) ਸੋਹਣੇ ਲੱਗ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ। ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਭਟਕਣਾ ਦੂਰ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਹੈ ॥੪॥
All my adornments now so fittingly enchanted. Nanak says the creator removed the doubt.

ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਪਿਰੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਖੋਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਕਪਾਟੁ ਤਾ ਮਨੁ ਠਹਰਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੫॥
Jah ḏekẖā ṯah pir hai bẖā▫ī. Kẖolĥi▫o kapāt ṯā man ṯẖahrā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||5||
ਹੁਣ ਮੈਂ ਜਿਧਰ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਮੈਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਹੀ ਦਿੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ) ਭਰਮ ਦਾ ਪਰਦਾ ਲਾਹ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ, ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨ ਟਿਕ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ॥੫॥
Brother wherever to see , there is the loved one. As the door so opened the mind is at peace.

ESSENCE: Guru ji state how the heart is excited to seek the creator. All ready and set to receive the creator in the heart. Guru ji liken it to a bride waiting for the groom. Guru ji characterize that bride (one searching for the creator) may become sleepy, appear intoxicated but that the creator is always aware and awake. One gets inkling of receiving the creator and so readies one self. One may also go asunder to seek and cherishingly employ many methods and be disappointed over time.

However, at the creator’s prodding does one become so awake in the heart. In blessing the company of the true is gained. All the anguish subsides and all efforts become productive embellishment. The doubts are removed and the creator appears everywhere one looks. The door of recognition and understanding so opened, vis-a-vis our awareness and consciousness, mind so much at peace and the creator so recognized within own heart.

In summary Guru ji flag how in response to heart’s desire to seek the creator we may do all kind of stuff, wander around, and so. We continue to be engrossed otherwise as if in a stupor. When the creator so blesses the doors of knowledge open within our own hearts and the creator is recognized by us to be everywhere. Our consciousness so awakens to all that is still around the same way as before but that we did not see with the eye of our own consciousness.

I stand corrected and all errors are mine.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: It goes without saying that we may observe all is transforming all the time. Some may call what lies behind all as consciousness, transformational, scientific but not well known truths (atheists), etc. It does not change much other than how it impacts rest of our approach to consonant living in creation.

The rules and truths that lie behind are hardly known to us. This applies to micro or sub-atomic particle/wave level to the planets and galaxies. The sciences in exploration of all this all the way from Quantum Physics to astronomy, etc., can best be described as at an infancy or lower level. Our egos get in the way that every time a little something is observed we get the megaphone out and start declaring to have found the golden key to all. We should all remember our place in creation, which is so vast, recognize this in humility including in our talk of the consciousness/unconsciousness, defined creator/God personification, messengers of God/creator, etc.
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[akiva]

Tejwant Ji

A Gunga means one who can not speak nor hear, hence "mute and hearing impaired" where as a DUMB means not having the right mental faculties.
/QUOTE]

In this usage DUMB is an archaic (pre-PC) term for mute.

Akiva

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Ji

A Gunga means one who can not speak nor hear, hence "mute and hearing impaired" where as a DUMB means not having the right mental faculties.
/QUOTE]

In this usage DUMB is an archaic (pre-PC) term for mute.

Akiva

Akiva ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am aware of that however, whether it is (pre-PC) term or not is irrelevant in this dialogue and that is not the point I am trying to make.

In fact this is also exactly the problem I mentioned in my response to your post in the thread 'Judaism & Sikhi'.

Meanings of words change with time and we should change our own understanding with that especially where our spiritual journey is concerned. This also includes the practices of certain traditions. This is the true essence of Sikhi, the only way of life which evolves with time rather than stopped in time as the dogmatic religions have.

Thanks for using the word 'archaic'. No religion or way of life should be trotting behind the times shackled with the heavy metal b a l l s of the archaic mindset.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Tejwant Ji

Meanings of words change with time and we should change our own understanding with that especially where our spiritual journey is concerned. This also includes the practices of certain traditions. This is the true essence of Sikhi, the only way of life which evolves with time rather than stopped in time as the dogmatic religions have.

Tejwant Singh Ji, it is precisely this reason that I believe SGGS should NOT be symbolic hidden poetic meanings... SHould it not be as literal as possible so that as many people as possible can understand it? Why try and teach something to humanity, that requires deciphering layers and layers of ever more complex and abstract ideas? Should it not be as easy to understand and follow as possible?

And if it is all just hidden poetic meanings and abstract comparisons... then how do you explain those of us who found truth in SGGS in the literal meanings of the verses?? I find MUCH more truth when I read it literally (metaphors aside... because yes it's full of metaphors to make comparisons understandable to the people of the time) but as I said before, the meanings of the metaphors are very literal... if you start saying that the comparisons are metaphors and then the actual message is also just a metaphor, then any meaning is lost IMO.

Using again my example from P 736 - The words 'play' 'director' and 'characters' are metaphors for 'reality' 'creator' and 'us' (its obvious) however to also say that the meaning of the verse - where it says when he takes off the costumes there is only ONE. - that meaning is pretty straight forward. The creator IS the director of the play, AND the characters but when he takes off the costumes, there is only ONE in existence - the creator. To say that message of only ONE in existence, is ALSO somehow just a metaphor or just an abstract poetic idea just doesn't make sense to me. Metaphors exist to illustrate an idea... not to illustrate another metaphor...

 

[Ambarsaria]

Akasha ji just as an example, describe based on your literal understanding the following from the shabad on the previous page (http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inter...khi-other-faith-traditions-18.html#post183005),

• How you physically make a bed in your heart? (ਏਕਾ ਸੇਜ ਵਿਛੀ ਧਨ ਕੰਤਾ ...)
• How you act intoxicated by liquor without drinking liquor? ( ਪੀਓ ਮਦਰੋ ਧਨ ....)
  
• How many countries Guru Arjan Dev ji visited besides India? (ਦੇਸ ਦਿਸੰਤਰ ... )
• What is the definition in scientific terms of the door that opens in the mind? ( ਖੋਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਕਪਾਟੁ ਤਾ ਮਨੁ ... )

Without recognizing symbolism and metphoric usage can anyone understand and explain this shabad in their own words? I will be delighted to hear such an interpretation and discourse and would love to learn in case I am missing something.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I believe in my post above you... I have acknowledged the usage of metaphors in order to convey meanings... it's the MEANING of what the metaphor is conveying that I do not believe is just another metaphor or symbolic.

 

[spnadmin]

I believe in my post above you... I have acknowledged the usage of metaphors in order to convey meanings... it's the MEANING of what the metaphor is conveying that I do not believe is just another metaphor or symbolic.

A metaphor has 2 parts. The literal and the figurative (non literal). The connection between literal and figurative = the metaphor. The metaphor makes the connection between the literal and the figurative.


The meaning of what the metaphor is conveying is not "just another metaphor or symbolic (sic)." Behind the metaphor is the lesson, realization, meaning of the metaphor. The metaphor is not the meaning. It conveys a meaning that is hard to get at through literal word usage alone. However, an interpretation of a metaphor should not take one back to literal meaning. The entire reason for metaphor is to get beyond literal meaning.

 

[spnadmin]

Example from Sheik Farid down to the rehao line.


ਆਸਾ ॥
आसा ॥
Āsā.
Aasaa:

ਬੋਲੈ ਸੇਖ ਫਰੀਦੁ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਅਲਹ ਲਗੇ ॥
Bolai Sekẖ Farīḏ pi▫āre alah lage.
Says Shaykh Fareed, O my dear friend, attach yourself to the Lord.

ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਹੋਸੀ ਖਾਕ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਗੋਰ ਘਰੇ ॥੧॥
Ih ṯan hosī kẖāk nimāṇī gor gẖare. ||1||
This body shall turn to dust, and its home shall be a neglected graveyard. ||1||

ਆਜੁ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਸੇਖ ਫਰੀਦ ਟਾਕਿਮ ਕੂੰਜੜੀਆ ਮਨਹੁ ਮਚਿੰਦੜੀਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Āj milāvā Sekẖ Farīḏ tākim kūnjaṛī▫ā manhu macẖinḏ▫ṛī▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
You can meet the Lord today, O Shaykh Fareed, if you restrain your bird-like desires which keep your mind in turmoil. ||1||Pause||

Now the metaphor: If you restrain your bird-like desires which keep your mind in turmoil. To understand the meaning. First get at the literal sense of "bird-like desires" to picture what Farid is describing. Then imagine the non-literal state of mind that is like bird-like desires. The connection is the metaphor: a mind in turmoil is driven to seek satisfaction, attached to the here and now, in a never-ending pursuit; just like a bird is driven by instinct to seek its satisfactions endlessly, repetitively in the material world. Meaning: the bird-like mind is instinctive, attached to the material needs and satisfactions, doomed to never find satisfaction. For a bird that is its destiny. For the mind it is turmoil. So Farid says, Attach to the Lord (allah) in order to end the turmoil

 

[Luckysingh]

It seems that everyone is banging against different walls.
Can we start defining the poetic and literal messages in gurbani??
- Because I think we all perceive them slightly differently to one another.

It takes the joy out of poetry !
Just think about all those songs and music out there and if they all meant exactly the same thing to everyone, then music would not be as much fun or interesting !
I like to be 'personal' with my music and lyrics and 'personal' with gurbani.

 

[spnadmin]

It seems that everyone is banging against different walls.
Can we start defining the poetic and literal messages in gurbani??

I am not sure who is stopping anyone from doing this.

- Because I think we all perceive them slightly differently to one another.

It takes the joy out of poetry !
Just think about all those songs and music out there and if they all meant exactly the same thing to everyone, then music would not be as much fun or interesting !
I like to be 'personal' with my music and lyrics and 'personal' with gurbani.

Except... we are stuck with two realities. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is poetry. And translations can be only so personal before they have taken a wide detour from what is actually being said. It is a classic problem of the close versus the broad translation. Broad can be very personal but also maddening if it barely connects with the words before our very eyes. In other words, you can only go so far with personal inspiration before it is no longer what Guruji says or means.

Also... for some readers of poetry, the message is one part of the joy of poetry, the emotional part. The other joy for them is the discovery of the creative uses of artistic forms like metaphor, uniquely invented by the poet, or the aesthetic part.

 

[Ambarsaria]

..... I like to be 'personal' with my music and lyrics and 'personal' with gurbani.

Luckysingh ji therein lies the answer. To be personal you cannot be literal. Specially if you want to share your personal with others as a unique experience or understanding.

Literals are all identical other than minor matching of words in translation.

By the way this is not just SGGS. In other religious treatises there is the same divide. The literals become in eyes of many as the orthodox and non-literal start to be classified as modern or renegades.

In my humble opinion if Guru ji and all others in SGGS wanted to be literal they would not have done poetic style and embedded metaphors for SGGS. Poetic with metphors is a style to express beyond literals.

Unfortunately not all have background in language and the environ of the place Guru ji and others composed SGGS. It is very hard if not impossible for such to go much beyond literals. It unfortunately is a weakness and not strength or does not make these more of a Sikh (see Harmanpreet Singh's challenging assertions in this thread) compared to those who go beyond the literals as Prof. Sahib Singh ji has done in his Darpan. He has described the literals and then stated the essence behind which I keep in my posts along with my personal understandings.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Luckysingh]

I think 'Chitr' keeps an account of the literal translation and 'Gupt' keeps an account of your metaphoric translations.
Maybe 'Dharamraj' does the final edit on all poetry !:winkingmunda::winkingmunda:eacesign:

 

[spnadmin]

Perhaps some of the difference, and possibly some of the frustration, lies in how close one is to a tradition of poetry, even to one's own tradition of poetry. Punjabi culture celebrates poets and poetry, and the pattern is pronounced in the diaspora which clings to its roots in this way, of many ways.

The tradition keeps one more at ease with poetry as a mode of communication than might be the case in a culture which views poetry as a waste of time, because nothing substantial comes from it.

It is remarkable how poetry readings, poetry contests, poetry columns and more pervade the diaspora cultures. Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus all share this passion. All I have to do to see that is go to the poetry page of Sikh Spokesman or several other Punjabi language newspapers. I don't understand much of it, but the message is unmistakable. And a person doesn't have to have a university degree in creative writing or literature to write poetry as a Punjabi. A family practice doctor soldiering away during the week at medicine might be writing poetry that he/she later presents at a gurdwara event, only to be the feature story in a Punjabi language paper the next day on the poetry page. And that gives permission and comfort in a big way to word play and blending mind, heart and soul.

 

[akiva]

Ambarsaria Ji

Unfortunately not all have background in language and the environ of the place Guru ji and others composed Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is very hard if not impossible for such to go much beyond literals.

Might I humbly add "and spiritual experience/awareness" to the above -- the context from which Gurbani was written. To truly understand the intention of Guru Ji we would need to share that as well.

Without that we are all, to one degree or another, like a blind person striving to understand colour.

Akiva

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Let us review in completeness the shabad that Harmanpreet Singh ji has posted in this thread. ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Sūhī mėhlā 5.
ਸੂਹੀ ਪੰਜਵੀਂ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ।

ਉਮਕਿਓ ਹੀਉ ਮਿਲਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾਈ ॥ ਖੋਜਤ ਚਰਿਓ ਦੇਖਉ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਜਾਈ ॥
Umki▫o hī▫o milan parabẖ ṯā▫ī. Kẖojaṯ cẖari▫o ḏekẖ▫a▫u pari▫a jā▫ī.
ਮੇਰਾ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਣ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ੀ ਨਾਲ ਨੱਚ ਪਿਆ, (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ) ਲੱਭਣ ਚੜ੍ਹ ਪਿਆ (ਕਿ) ਮੈਂ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਦੇ ਰਹਿਣ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ (ਕਿਤੇ) ਵੇਖਾਂ।
Happily ebullient the heart to meet the creator. Pursuing to search the place of abode of the loved one.

ਸੁਨਤ ਸਦੇਸਰੋ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਸੇਜ ਵਿਛਾਈ ॥ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਆਇਓ ਤਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
Sunaṯ saḏesro pari▫a garihi sej vicẖẖā▫ī. Bẖaram bẖaram ā▫i▫o ṯa▫o naḏar na pā▫ī. ||1||
ਹੇ ਸਖੀ! ਪਿਆਰੇ ਦਾ ਸਨੇਹਾ ਸੁਣਦਿਆਂ ਮੈਂ ਹਿਰਦੇ-ਘਰ ਵਿਚ ਸੇਜ ਵਿਛਾ ਦਿੱਤੀ। (ਪਰ) ਭਟਕ ਭਟਕ ਕੇ ਮੁੜ ਆਇਆ, ਤਦੋਂ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮੇਹਰ ਦੀ) ਨਿਗਾਹ ਹਾਸਲ ਨਾਹ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
Hearing the loved one’s message, spread out a comforting bed in the heart. Wandered and wandered returned, did not get a glimpse of so.

ਕਿਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਹੀਅਰੋ ਧੀਰੈ ਨਿਮਾਨੋ ॥ ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਜਨ ਹਉ ਤੁਝੁ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Kin biḏẖ hī▫aro ḏẖīrai nimāno. Mil sājan ha▫o ṯujẖ kurbāno. ||1|| rahā▫o.
ਹੇ ਸੱਜਣ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! (ਮੈਨੂੰ) ਮਿਲ, ਮੈਂ ਤੈਥੋਂ ਸਦਕੇ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹਾਂ। (ਤੇਰੇ ਦਰਸਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਮੇਰਾ ਇਹ ਨਿਮਾਣਾ ਦਿਲ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਧੀਰਜ ਫੜੇ? ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥
What methods can the poor heart hope for. Creator meet me, I am in humble capitulation.

ਏਕਾ ਸੇਜ ਵਿਛੀ ਧਨ ਕੰਤਾ ॥ ਧਨ ਸੂਤੀ ਪਿਰੁ ਸਦ ਜਾਗੰਤਾ ॥
Ėkā sej vicẖẖī ḏẖan kanṯā. Ḏẖan sūṯī pir saḏ jāganṯā.
ਹੇ ਸਖੀ! ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਅਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ ਦੀ ਇਕੋ ਹੀ ਸੇਜ (ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ) ਵਿਛੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ; ਪਰ ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ (ਸਦਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਦੀ ਨੀਂਦ ਵਿਚ) ਸੁੱਤੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ ਸਦਾ ਜਾਗਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਉਤਾਂਹ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ)।
One comfortable bed so spread for the husband lord and spouse. Bride asleep and the loved one always awake.

ਪੀਓ ਮਦਰੋ ਧਨ ਮਤਵੰਤਾ ॥ ਧਨ ਜਾਗੈ ਜੇ ਪਿਰੁ ਬੋਲੰਤਾ ॥੨॥
Pī▫o maḏro ḏẖan maṯvanṯā. Ḏẖan jāgai je pir bolanṯā. ||2||
ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਇਉਂ ਮਸਤ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਇਸ ਨੇ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਪੀਤੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। (ਹਾਂ) ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਜਾਗ ਭੀ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ (ਆਪ) ਜਗਾਏ ॥੨॥
The bride as if intoxicated having consume liquor. The bride does awake if called by the spouse.

ਭਈ ਨਿਰਾਸੀ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਦਿਨ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ ਦੇਸ ਦਿਸੰਤਰ ਮੈ ਸਗਲੇ ਝਾਗੇ ॥
Bẖa▫ī nirāsī bahuṯ ḏin lāge. Ḏes disanṯar mai sagle jẖāge.
ਹੇ ਸਖੀ! (ਉਮਰ ਦੇ) ਬਹੁਤ ਸਾਰੇ ਦਿਨ ਬੀਤ ਗਏ ਹਨ, (ਹੁਣ) ਮੈਂ ਨਿਰਾਸ ਹੋ ਗਈ ਹਾਂ। ਮੈਂ (ਬਾਹਰ) ਹੋਰ ਹੋਰ ਸਾਰੇ ਦੇਸ ਭਾਲ ਵੇਖੇ ਹਨ (ਪਰ ਬਾਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ ਕਿਤੇ ਲੱਭਾ ਨਹੀਂ।)
Am disappointed as many a days have passed. Country and many other countries I have traversed.

ਖਿਨੁ ਰਹਨੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਉ ਬਿਨੁ ਪਗ ਪਾਗੇ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਿਲਹ ਸਭਾਗੇ ॥੩॥
Kẖin rahan na pāva▫o bin pag pāge. Ho▫e kirpāl parabẖ milah sabẖāge. ||3||
ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਛਿਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਭੀ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦੀ। (ਹਾਂ, ਹੇ ਸਖੀ!) ਜੇ ਉਹ ਆਪ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ਹੋਵੇ, ਤਾਂ ਸਹੀ ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਚੰਗੇ ਭਾਗ ਜਾਗਣ ਨਾਲ ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਸਕਦੀਆਂ ਹਾਂ ॥੩॥
Not a moment of peace received without being prone at the feet. If such so blessing, the creator, gained through good fortune.

ਭਇਓ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਸਤਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਬੂਝੀ ਤਪਤਿ ਘਰਹਿ ਪਿਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Bẖa▫i▫o kirpāl saṯsang milā▫i▫ā. Būjẖī ṯapaṯ gẖarėh pir pā▫i▫ā.
ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮੇਰੇ ਉਤੇ ਦਇਆਵਾਨ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਮੈਨੂੰ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਸਤਸੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਮਿਲਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ। ਮੇਰੀ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੀ) ਤਪਸ਼ ਮਿਟ ਗਈ ਹੈ, ਮੈਂ ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਤੀ ਨੂੰ ਹਿਰਦੇ-ਘਰ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਲੱਭ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ।
Became so blissful, gained company of the true. The anguish put out, the bridegroom found in own heart.
ਸਗਲ ਸੀਗਾਰ ਹੁਣਿ ਮੁਝਹਿ ਸੁਹਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ ॥੪॥
Sagal sīgār huṇ mujẖėh suhā▫i▫ā. Kaho Nānak gur bẖaram cẖukā▫i▫ā. ||4||
ਹੁਣ ਮੈਨੂੰ (ਆਪਣੇ) ਸਾਰੇ ਸਿੰਗਾਰ (ਉੱਦਮ) ਸੋਹਣੇ ਲੱਗ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ। ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਭਟਕਣਾ ਦੂਰ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਹੈ ॥੪॥
All my adornments now so fittingly enchanted. Nanak says the creator removed the doubt.

ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਪਿਰੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਖੋਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਕਪਾਟੁ ਤਾ ਮਨੁ ਠਹਰਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੫॥
Jah ḏekẖā ṯah pir hai bẖā▫ī. Kẖolĥi▫o kapāt ṯā man ṯẖahrā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||5||
ਹੁਣ ਮੈਂ ਜਿਧਰ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਮੈਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਹੀ ਦਿੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ) ਭਰਮ ਦਾ ਪਰਦਾ ਲਾਹ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ, ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨ ਟਿਕ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ॥੫॥
Brother wherever to see , there is the loved one. As the door so opened the mind is at peace.

ESSENCE: Guru ji state how the heart is excited to seek the creator. All ready and set to receive the creator in the heart. Guru ji liken it to a bride waiting for the groom. Guru ji characterize that bride (one searching for the creator) may become sleepy, appear intoxicated but that the creator is always aware and awake. One gets inkling of receiving the creator and so readies one self. One may also go asunder to seek and cherishingly employ many methods and be disappointed over time.

However, at the creator’s prodding does one become so awake in the heart. In blessing the company of the true is gained. All the anguish subsides and all efforts become productive embellishment. The doubts are removed and the creator appears everywhere one looks. The door of recognition and understanding so opened, vis-a-vis our awareness and consciousness, mind so much at peace and the creator so recognized within own heart.

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sat sri akaal and Vaisakhi greetings to all

thanks Ambarsaria ji for bringing entire shabad of Guru Granth Sahib with translation and explanation of Prof Sahib singh ji .

neither me ,nor Akasha ji ,lucky ji or Akiva ji is denying use of metaphors in Guru Granth sahib ji , but rejecting metaphors as meaningless poetry is nothing less than disrespect of Guru Shabad.


blessings ..

 

[spnadmin]

sat sri akaal and Vaisakhi greetings to all

neither me ,nor Akasha ji ,lucky ji or Akiva ji is denying use of metaphors in Guru Granth sahib ji , but rejecting metaphors as meaningless poetry is nothing less than disrespect of Guru Shabad.


blessings ..

harmanprret singh ji

Please tell us where that happened and who said such. This is the second such statement in the thread. All this looks like a change of canoes in midstream. What is more - it can be taken a different way - as a deliberate effort to derail the thread once a debate is turning against you. And to engage in more faith-based finger-pointing as before. This time I make a direct request. Consider it also a warning.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Admin ji ,

i have no such intentions to derail the thread and i don;t care if discussion is turning against me or along me .

may i ask you

whats your understanding of quoted shabad especially "Dhan sutti pir Sad Jaaganta " ?

 

[spnadmin]

Admin ji ,

i have no such intentions to derail the thread and i don;t care if discussion is turning against me or along me .

may i ask you

whats your understanding of quoted shabad especially "Dhan sutti pir Sad Jaaganta " ?

I recommend you apologize to those members whose respect of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and their nature as Sikhs has been called into question, or at least explain why you formed the impression that they disrespect Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We can usually depend on the grace and good-will of our loyal members.

Second point. I am not about to do anymore heavy lifting than I already do in the shabad translation department.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Ambarsaria Ji
Might I humbly add "and spiritual experience/awareness" to the above -- the context from which Gurbani was written. To truly understand the intention of Guru Ji we would need to share that as well.......

Akiva ji thanks for your post. I believe that your comment is quite valid.

The actual mixture of what leads us to personal understanding of our Guru ji's teachings through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji I am sure varies from person to person. Some are blessed to understand by just listening. Others just by reading. Many through doing or reading discourses and so on. There is no perfect way that anyone can dictate to someone else and it is all very personal.

I do believe that it is quite dis-respectful of your fellow Sikhs when people take a word out of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and start manipulating how it is all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Same if they take a pangti/line and do that as in some posts here. One cannot even take a shabad to convey the essence of totality of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I humbly suggest that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is indivisible. There is much to learn by going through more of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and as often one can even going over same part many a times. As the understanding enriches our understanding could also change versus what we may have understood in the first pass.

Prof. Sahib SIngh ji makes some of the points as I listed above in his Darpan. One of the most important comment that Prof. Sahib Singh ji also makes is that "one does not read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to prove a point or with a motive." This is a very common pitfall where one can say search srigranth.org for items like,

• meat
• wine
• conscious
• light
• nectar
• ...........

- and come away with global pronouncements. It is good exercise for self but not a deductive approach to promulgate or make general pronouncements.

I Appreciate your wise posts.

Regards and Sat Sri Akal.

PS: I do also observe that the one liner, few words, one shabad pushers are cutting Sikhism at its roots by denigrating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. When one does these things then one starts to initiate that other parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are somehow redundant or of lesser value/guidance.

The Dehras and Babeys are notorious in doing so as they become the equivalent of fast food joints for spirituality. Recall how parchis/notes on paper are dished out at some dehras. You repeat what is on the paper and you will get a son, you will succeed in business, you will be cured of disease, etc. Nothing can be further from our Guru ji's teachings in this regard.

Even though one should not judge but rather ask, it is amusing to some times observe how a given poster is pushing the lines of Dehra 1 or Baba 2. One comes to know or conjecture this by knowing a bit about such dehras and babas. Perhaps one day such will unshackle themselves and get closer to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I note that in principle no one is permanently lost as a Sikh from the greater brotherhood per teachings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as anyone can turn towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji any moment in their lives. One spark can light a fire.