A Conscious Creator In Sikhi And Other Faith Traditions?

[Ambarsaria]

Akasha ji thanks for starting a wonderful thread.

A conscious creator in Sikhi?

Akasha ji beyond Sikhism or Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji we have to ask ourselves questions of logic in how we understand things.

As human beings we have great deal of difficulty in concepts perpetual, concepts of synergistic co-generation, concepts of synergistic perpetuation.

Let me cite an example.

Example: How do cells live in our body and how does body live from cells?

Answer: Science tells us that in order for body to be living, the cells are living. In order for cells to stay alive, the body needs to be alive and vice versa. Who is the source in this instance? Is body the reason for the cells or the cells reason for the body. I believe the answer possibly could be that the both co-exist through a truthful relationship that we may not fully understand. So the essence in this example that stays constant is the “truthful relationship” or the “underlying truths” sustaining this.

In this example what would I call as the creative force that never changes and is beyond time or other variables? I will call it the truth behind our body existence.

Now if we were to think beyond ourselves we will start to accumulate whole bunch of wisdom that is permanent for how and why things are. This wisdom would be in the form of ultimate never changing truths. This truthfulness is what defines creation.

What is the expanse of this truthfulness? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us that such is infinite. If the truthfulness or such ultimate truths have such infiniteness is it viable for us to define the creator and associate one with such? Perhaps it is but what functionally do we gain in trying to box in a possible creator of infiniteness. My belief is that one would be forever making errors in such an effort.

You simply cannot box infinity.

What could we possibly call such an infinity? In love we may call it the creator. In cherishment and our limitations we may want to personify with attributes we understand with our limits. As long as we recognize that these are matter of convenience or ways for ourselves to create a manageability towards all this then I believe we shall be good.

However if we suddenly start to extrapolate in human terms and human understanding the concepts into a God we understand, a creator we understand, then it is guaranteed we would be committing errors and creating falsehoods. Fundamentally an anti-thesis of creation and creator.

So how does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and so Sikhism guides us. An infinite creator and one creation all connected. Learn as much as you can about the creator (truths that sustain) and creation all around and live happily thereafter. Sikh for ever learning, for ever seeking and for ever so living with all through truths so discovered.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: All this business of merging and un-merging has been addressed in other posts. In essence one merges into the wisdom and it is not a physical merging of bodies, souls, atoms and vapors.
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have the knack of simplifying things in plain and simple words that can be understood easily even by a layman like myself. You untangle so easily the dori of our kites that we all used to fly during the Basant season.

This is exactly Sikhi is all about. It is not about rituals,pilgrimages, fasting etc. etc. It is about being practically good in all aspects in order to make a difference.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is the toolbox that our Gurus gave us with lots of blueprints keeping only one objective in mind. We are taught to build projects for the goodness of all and it depends on the individual's quest what and how to build them. In other words, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Genome of the Munn and it depends on each of us how we decipher our own with Its help.

The references of The Husband and soul brides are just a beautiful poetic way of trying to describe The Indescribable with our futile efforts along with our polyglottic talents. Gurbani admits that.

Merging with The One for me means, blending ourselves with the goodness and do our utter best not to ruin the awe and wow factors that surround us, but do the contrary. It is our duty to become the lotuses sprouting out of this cesspool to emit the fragrance in all directions. As the Gurbani says, this is the only life we know. Let's squeeze the last drop of goodness out of it.

Thanks again for simplifying my life.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

We are the cells of the Celestial.

 

[Ishna]

Why bother with the riddles of Gurbani if a science book can tell you eveything you need to know about reality? I repeat the question - without Punjabi culture, how is this Sikhi different from secular humanism?

How do you reconcile 'constant truths' of physics with the fact that Gurbani tells you the universe too will expire? It's not constant if it's going to end.

The references of The Husband and soul brides are just a beautiful poetic way of trying to describe The Indescribable with our futile efforts along with our polyglottic talents. Gurbani admits that.

The Indescribable nothing?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Isi what will it expire into?

 

[Ishna]

Isi what will it expire into?

My point exactly veerji.

The answer will depend on who you ask here. Everyone has a different opinion...

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Don't follow opinion ,follow your intuition it's really good,much better than mine.If your intuition is as good as I think it is then you'll know I don't believe the last bit of my opinion lol

 

[Ishna]

Don't follow opinion ,follow your intuition it's really good,much better than mine.If your intuition is as good as I think it is then you'll know I don't believe the last bit of my opinion lol

*brain explodes* There, that one's for you SP ji. :grinningsingh:

On the bright side, at least in Sikhi no one is gonna be shot for their difference of opinion. eacesignkaur:

 

[Luckysingh]

I firmly believe.....Infact, I am more than sure that I would bet more than just my life on it that God/creator is a conscious entity.
Ishnaji raises the right questions to anyone that may deny this and I have to agree.
I mean what is the point of 'nothing'???


How can it be God's grace or hukam if he/she is not conscious ??
Akashaji seems to be on my same wavelength as well, in terms of our consciousness being the entity that is part of the God consciousness.

It's seems justified to have references of gurbani as metaphors or as poetic descriptions, but we shouldn't get trapped in this mindset.
Personally, I have learned that some things were not so metaphorical after all !!

'God realisation' only happens with one's own progress, so whatever I say or someone else says, is not going to help or convince another about 'God realisation'.
Therefore, we should accept and take all the views and different angles in to help our own approach and then along the way you will begin to accept and reject with 'God intuition' !

 

[arshdeep88]

i never knew there could be so many difference of opinions about the creator in SIKHI itself
ill rather have someone to give me ICE tea or cold coffee

 

[Ambarsaria]

Luckysingh ji thanks for your post.

I mean what is the point of 'nothing'???

Luckysingh ji why you equate wisdom, knowledge, truths as nothing? If the material universe including ourselves is because of these, why would these not be a reflection of God/creator? When did you touch the Law of Gravity with your hand? When did we convert energy to mass ourselves? If there exists truths that underlies all this, is it not part of the wisdom of God/creator?

Why things have to be physical and touchy-feely? Why would God/creator be limited to life? Does God/creator stops existing for non-life without consciousness or ability to recognize consciousness?

How can it be God's grace or hukam if he/she is not conscious ??

Please define consciousness! If it is other than eternal truths please describe so. Do you really believe that God/creator watches and manages us personally at micro level or that we are part of a system of truths that govern us and all that is around us. Just that we don't understand all, perhaps actually very little of the eternal truths in the universe, we look for a physical or life associated or living entity to look as though we could recognize it if we saw it. What makes anyone think that they have the eyes, ears, the nose, the tongue or hands for testing what God/creator is supposed to look like, sound like, smell like, taste like or feel like?

Veer ji we are all too limited and we are trying to comprehend the majestics behind everything. We can only limit the majesty the more we try to make it or restrict to our experiential world.

Of course I am open to or wishing to learn but these are just some of what hear out loud and clear through limited studying or understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Great thread for sure.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Luckysingh]

Luckysingh ji why you equate wisdom, knowledge, truths as nothing?

Just as qualities, body, mind and soul make us what we are then wisdom,knowledge and truths are what make up the God creator.
What amounts to nothing is the defining of God as having no conscious or awareness.

I think that you are assuming that I am talking about some form of a God creator, but having a consciousness is NOT a form, it is still formless. It may be formless, but it is still aware of your actions, it is aware of the exact number of hairs on your head, it is aware of your deep inner thoughts and desires...etc..
I'm not sure whether you agree about this 'All knowing God/creator'' because to say that there is no God conscious is like saying that he is NOT 'all knowing'

The scientific aspects of creation are just a small part of what he created,they are not him.
I'm not sure if you see Creator as being nothing else but creation or you see Creation as a fraction or part of Creator.
Creation is made and destroyed but the God creator isn't.

 

[Luckysingh]

Don't follow opinion ,follow your intuition it's really good,much better than mine.If your intuition is as good as I think it is then you'll know I don't believe the last bit of my opinion

I think the key is the 'Intuition'.
Once you 'know' that God Creator is 'All knowing', then you are a step closer to the 'realising' Imho.

 

[spnadmin]

Just that we don't understand all, perhaps actually very little of the eternal truths in the universe, we look for a physical or life associated or living entity to look as though we could recognize it if we saw it.

...

[/I]Veer ji we are all too limited and we are trying to comprehend the majestics behind everything. We can only limit the majesty the more we try to make it or restrict to our experiential world.

...

You are capturing thoughts that have tapped me on the shoulder on and off all day Ambarsaria ji.

If the sat is beyond limitations of time and all other human traits, is it important to know whether sat is a conscious creator? Can we know? Will our answer always be limited, up to the limits of what we humans can be conscious of?

The Mool Mantar speaks not only of a single, timeless and self existent creator, it gives the words "sat naam." These two words have been translated in various ways, but the basic sense of "sat naam" is that the identity of the single, timeless, self-existent creator is "sat." A truth that Japji Sahib ji describes as: aad such, jugaad such, hai bi such, Nanak hosi bi such. The sat was, is and will be the timeless and self-created "sat" ... from the beginning, over the centuries of past time, today, and forever. When this universe is gone, and when this race of humans exists no more, the sat will continue. If we say that the creator is conscious, are we trying to cram a "sat" without limits into the limited spaces of our own minds in order to be on firm ground?

Why do we cling to the idea that the single, timeless and self-existent creator is conscious the way we humans are 'conscious' or in the way we humans 'understand consciousness'?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Why do we cling to the idea that the single, timeless and self-existent creator is conscious the way we humans are 'conscious' or in the way we humans 'understand consciousness'?

Is it perhaps we want to cling to the un-clingable?

 

[spnadmin]

Is it perhaps we want to cling to the un-clingable?

I don't know. Have to spend some time thinking about this. Spent 50 minutes on the drive up to my mother's house talking to my husband about it. Either we create notions of God or someone creates it for us, and we follow along (religion). But why we do it I don't know.

Sikhi is not the only path that is open to this kind of debate. That part I beleve is very healthy.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Luckysingh ji thanks for your post.

....
I think that you are assuming that I am talking about some form of a God creator, but having a consciousness is NOT a form, it is still formless. It may be formless, but it is still aware of your actions, it is aware of the exact number of hairs on your head, it is aware of your deep inner thoughts and desires...etc..

Luckysingh ji I am cognizance of what you are stating. It is no different than what is stated in the video below where it states, "... there is a stamp on each and every grain and destination as to who will consume it!",

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/oVHRBX_xk5g?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

All songs from this wonderful movie are posted in the following thread for your enjoyment,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/punjabi/37862-guddi-punjabi-1961-a.html

The all knowing universe all can be explainable including as to the exact number of hair on your head at any given time. Unfortunately we are so backward that we cannot even encourage single hair to regrow or from stop dying. Is it defined and known in the greater formation of universe including us? The answer of course is yes. Where and how or who possesses this can be called the truths of the universe, the making and goings on of creation, the creator or God that is all knowing. Is there associated consciousness related to all this or simply unchanging truths. I believe the answer for me is it really does not matter. It just is!
​

I'm not sure whether you agree about this 'All knowing God/creator'' because to say that there is no God conscious is like saying that he is NOT 'all knowing'

Luckysingh ji I simply am not debating he, she or it or nothing to be not "all knowing". I am simply stating that there is so much that underlies what happens and that for us to hypothesize or assign it to some definable form or formless in detail is simply ridiculous. We have to be all knowing to be doing so or participating in such an endeavor. We know a little about little parts of ourselves and us. This gives us an inkling of the greater there is but not much more.

The scientific aspects of creation are just a small part of (1)what he created,they are not him.

I'm not sure if you see Creator as being nothing else but creation or you see Creation as a fraction or part of Creator.

(2) Creation is made and destroyed but the God creator isn't.

(1) Luckysingh ji science is simply a knowing tool. Our Guru ji did so for parts of identifying aspects of creator without science. We do not need to limit or assign specific disciplines as the only ways. I believe here is where perhaps Atheists differ from Sikhs with excessive dependency on scientific proof.

(2) Luckysing ji I hope that you agree at least to the aspect that creation is of the creator as per Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. What happens and when it so happens to creation is only known to the creator. It is foolish of us to assign to the creator the quality that creation may die but you must live. Really let us think about it!

There is much wisdom in what Scarlet Pimpernel veer ji stated as " We are the cells of the Celestial." Even at that it is perhaps a gross overstatement as to our relationship vis-a-vis the universe. We are so miniscule brother, but our ego lets us assume the grandeur of understanding or complete knowledge that is way to vast and we are amply warned to not seek or expect to know all per Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We just keep knocking our head into the wall till we are all bloody (metaphorically), in spite of all the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Just some thoughts for dialog. I stand corrected as I am in it for learning as much as everyone else.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: At a strictly mathematical level or logical deduction if Sikhism espouses an infinite creator/God it by such definition implies an undefinable God/creator. It implies that we will never be able to prove God exists and what is so in a deterministic way. Hence Sikhism by definition is agnostic towards physical and definable God/creator. Some Atheists can take it to mean that Sikhism espouses Atheism!

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

If Sikhi (as some of you have described) is merely describing the unconscious Universe itself as the ultimate truth, and 'matter' being the base of reality, then why not just have a science book to learn and live by?

I still FIRMLY believe that the underlying 'Truth' to the Universe is consciousness, not matter. Consciousness does not require space or time (concepts that are part of the physical Universe). How can you quantify how much space your own consciousness takes? You can't. And further to that, there is evidence that our own consciousness works on a non-locality principle, like a quantum computer. If the is evidence that even our own consciousness is not merely an 'emergent' property of the complexity of matter and it very well could exist outside of the confines of the brain, then is it a far stretch to say that there is ONE underlying field to the Universe that is pure consciousness, and we are all a part of it?? Quantum physics seems to be pointing to the fact there IS an underlying field to everything, at the level where matter seems to disappear and dissolve. And that's not getting into any 'wooo' as spnadmin would say.

It still does not make sense to me how a physical universe could ever 'just happen' without conscious design. How everything in the physical universe could just happen without 'someone' guiding it, is unfathomable. I can throw a bunch of marbles on the floor in a pile, and they will only ever be marbles unless someone arranges them into something more. In the same way, elementary subatomic particles could not just by chance arrange into complex forms that give way to atoms, etc. And the very fact that subatomic particles have 'rules' as to what they can and can't do, is evidence to me! Rules don't write themselves!

For me personally, my own consciousness is evidence that there is more than an Unconscious 'all by chance' Universe. How something as unconscious as the matter of the brain (which is made of the same basic subatomic particles as everything else in the Universe) could ever give rise to consciousness and the 'personal experience' is mind boggling.

And to top it off, personal spiritual experiences should not be discounted. I know I can't prove it to anyone, but for myself, I deeply feel the ultimate truth to the Universe is ONE universal formless field and that field is consciousness (the creator) and we are part of it. Matter arises out of consciousness and not the other way round. THAT is the ultimate truth... that's the only way everything makes sense in SGGS.

Think how would you resolve the Mool Mantra if the Ultimate truth is just the science to the physical Universe (matter). Are you trying to say the formless, beyond birth and death, without fear or hate 'ultimate truth' is really science?? Again, science requires rules, and rules need to be written. And how about all of the passages in SGGS talking about everything being ONE. And why does SGGS tell us in so many pages, that we should contemplate the essential reality? If the reality we are presented with is all there is, and man has always been firmly seated within the physical realm hence no need for proof - because we can touch it and see it etc. Then why the instruction to contemplate the essential reality? Why all the passages that tell us that physical things are not what matters, if the physical reality is all there is?? Why does it tell us to look within, to a place that is by definition nonphysical? Why does it say that once the 'tenth gate' is opened, this reality will be evident to us? And that to open it we must go within ourselves... into our consciousness? It doesn't make sense for all of that to be mere poetry trying to tell us to live by science and in harmony with physical nature. It just doesn't make sense.

If instead the ultimate 'truth' is consciousness, there is no need to resolve matter, as consciousness is already formless, it's already beyond birth and death (if we believe that matter is created BY consciousness), there is no fear and hate because ONE underlying ultimate field of consciousness would have nobody to hate or fear, and all of the passages in SGGS talking about everything being ONE make sense. It makes sense when SGGS is talking about looking within ourselves, to our own consciousness, to find that ultimate truth - no poetry or allegory - and it makes sense when SGGS is telling us that Maya is useless. The tenth gate makes sense because if you look within deep enough you will escape the confines of the physical world, and see and experience this underlying field of pure consciousness and ONEness. Everything just makes sense without needing to explain away everything in SGGS as being merely poetry and symbolic meaning to living in the physical world.

I know I can't ever make anyone else see this truth... but I know deep inside myself that consciousness, and not matter is the basis of the Universe.

 

[Ishna]

I'm confused.

Ang 25 gives the label 'All-knowing' to a Tu (You).

<TABLE width="84%"><TBODY><TR><TD>ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:
ਤੂ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਦਾਨਾ ਬੀਨਾ ਮੈ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਕੈਸੇ ਅੰਤੁ ਲਹਾ ॥
Ŧū ḏarī▫ā▫o ḏānā bīnā mai macẖẖulī kaise anṯ lahā.
You are the River, All-knowing and All-seeing. I am just a fish-how can I find Your limit?
ਜਹ ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਤਹ ਤੂ ਹੈ ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਨਿਕਸੀ ਫੂਟਿ ਮਰਾ ॥੧॥
Jah jah ḏekẖā ṯah ṯah ṯū hai ṯujẖ ṯe niksī fūt marā. ||1||
Wherever I look, You are there. Outside of You, I would burst and die. ||1||
ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਮੇਉ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਜਾਲੀ ॥
Na jāṇā me▫o na jāṇā jālī.
I do not know of the fisherman, and I do not know of the net.
ਜਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਤਾ ਤੁਝੈ ਸਮਾਲੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Jā ḏukẖ lāgai ṯā ṯujẖai samālī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
But when the pain comes, then I call upon You. ||1||Pause||
ਤੂ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਮੈ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
Ŧū bẖarpūr jāni▫ā mai ḏūr.
You are present everywhere. I had thought that You were far away.
ਜੋ ਕਛੁ ਕਰੀ ਸੁ ਤੇਰੈ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
Jo kacẖẖ karī so ṯerai haḏūr.
Whatever I do, I do in Your Presence.
ਤੂ ਦੇਖਹਿ ਹਉ ਮੁਕਰਿ ਪਾਉ ॥
Ŧū ḏekẖėh ha▫o mukar pā▫o.
You see all my actions, and yet I deny them.
ਤੇਰੈ ਕੰਮਿ ਨ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਇ ॥੨॥
Ŧerai kamm na ṯerai nā▫e. ||2||
I have not worked for You, or Your Name. ||2||
ਜੇਤਾ ਦੇਹਿ ਤੇਤਾ ਹਉ ਖਾਉ ॥
Jeṯā ḏėh ṯeṯā ha▫o kẖā▫o.
Whatever You give me, that is what I eat.
ਬਿਆ ਦਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੈ ਦਰਿ ਜਾਉ ॥
Bi▫ā ḏar nāhī kai ḏar jā▫o.
There is no other door-unto which door should I go?
ਨਾਨਕੁ ਏਕ ਕਹੈ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥
Nānak ek kahai arḏās.
Nanak offers this one prayer:
ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੩॥
Jī▫o pind sabẖ ṯerai pās. ||3||
this body and soul are totally Yours. ||3||
ਆਪੇ ਨੇੜੈ ਦੂਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਆਪੇ ਮੰਝਿ ਮਿਆਨ ॥
Āpe neṛai ḏūr āpe hī āpe manjẖ mi▫āno.
He Himself is near, and He Himself is far away; He Himself is in-between.
ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੁਣੇ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਜਹਾਨ ॥
Āpe vekẖai suṇe āpe hī kuḏraṯ kare jahāno.
He Himself beholds, and He Himself listens. By His Creative Power, He created the world.
ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸੋਈ ਪਰਵਾਨ ॥੪॥੩੧॥
Jo ṯis bẖāvai nānkā hukam so▫ī parvāno. ||4||31||
Whatever pleases Him, O Nanak-that Command is acceptable. ||4||31||

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Gurbani has this to say in So Dar, ang 6, 5th line from the bottom:

<TABLE width="84%"><TBODY><TR><TD>ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲੇ ॥
So ḏar kehā so gẖar kehā jiṯ bahi sarab samāle.
Where is that Gate, and where is that Dwelling, in which You sit and take care of all?
ਵਾਜੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ ॥
vāje nāḏ anek asankẖā keṯe vāvaṇhāre.
The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there, and countless musicians play on all sorts of instruments there.
ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਗ ਪਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਕਹੀਅਨਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ ॥
Keṯe rāg parī si▫o kahī▫an keṯe gāvaṇhāre.
So many Ragas, so many musicians singing there.
ਗਾਵਹਿ ਤੁਹਨੋ ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਆਰੇ ॥
Gāvahi ṯuhno pa▫uṇ pāṇī baisanṯar gāvai rājā ḏẖaram ḏu▫āre.
The praanic wind, water and fire sing; the Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door.
ਗਾਵਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
Gāvahi cẖiṯ gupaṯ likẖ jāṇėh likẖ likẖ ḏẖaram vīcẖāre.
Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who record actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who judges this record sing.
ਗਾਵਹਿ ਈਸਰੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥
Gāvahi īsar barmā ḏevī sohan saḏā savāre.
Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned, sing.
ਗਾਵਹਿ ਇੰਦ ਇਦਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
Gāvahi inḏ iḏāsaṇ baiṯẖe ḏeviṯi▫ā ḏar nāle.
Indra, seated upon His Throne, sings with the deities at Your Door.
ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸਾਧ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ ॥
Gāvahi siḏẖ samāḏẖī anḏar gāvan sāḏẖ vicẖāre.
The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing; the Saadhus sing in contemplation.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ ॥
Gāvan jaṯī saṯī sanṯokẖī gāvahi vīr karāre.
The celibates, the fanatics, the peacefully accepting and the fearless warriors sing.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
Gāvan pandiṯ paṛan rakẖīsar jug jug veḏā nāle.
The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing.
ਗਾਵਹਿ ਮੋਹਣੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਨਿ ਸੁਰਗਾ ਮਛ ਪਇਆਲੇ ॥
Gāvahi mohṇī▫ā man mohan surgā macẖẖ pa▫i▫āle.
The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in this world, in paradise, and in the underworld of the subconscious sing.
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਏ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
Gāvan raṯan upā▫e ṯere aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath nāle.
The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight holy places of pilgrimage sing.
ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਚਾਰੇ ॥
Gāvahi joḏẖ mahābal sūrā gāvahi kẖāṇī cẖāre.
The brave and mighty warriors sing; the spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing.
ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੇ ਧਾਰੇ ॥
Gāvahi kẖand mandal varbẖandā kar kar rakẖe ḏẖāre.
The planets, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing.
ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧੁਨੋ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ ॥
Se▫ī ṯuḏẖuno gāvahi jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvan raṯe ṯere bẖagaṯ rasāle.
They alone sing, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with the Nectar of Your Essence.
ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
Hor keṯe gāvan se mai cẖiṯ na āvan Nānak ki▫ā vīcẖāre.
So many others sing, they do not come to mind. O Nanak, how can I consider them all?
ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ ॥
So▫ī so▫ī saḏā sacẖ sāhib sācẖā sācẖī nā▫ī.
That True Lord is True, Forever True, and True is His Name.
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ ॥
Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī racẖnā jin racẖā▫ī.
He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs.
ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ॥
Rangī rangī bẖāṯī kar kar jinsī mā▫i▫ā jin upā▫ī.
He created the world, with its various colors, species of beings, and the variety of Maya.
ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
Kar kar vekẖai kīṯā āpṇā jiv ṯis ḏī vadi▫ā▫ī.
Having created the creation, He watches over it Himself, by His Greatness.
ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਸੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਈ ॥
Jo ṯis bẖāvai so▫ī karsī hukam na karṇā jā▫ī.
He does whatever He pleases. No order can be issued to Him.
ਸੋ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਹਣੁ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੨੭॥
So pāṯisāhu sāhā pāṯisāhib Nānak rahaṇ rajā▫ī. ||27||
He is the King, the King of kings, the Supreme Lord and Master of kings. Nanak remains subject to His Will. ||27||



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
So.. who is Tu who is All-knowing without a consciousness, and what remains when the universe no longer remains?

This isn't me speculating or trying to imagine the 'creator' with my puny human brain. I'm just quoting Gurbani. I am reading the right book, yeah?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

This isn't me speculating or trying to imagine the 'creator' with my puny human brain

Isi its ok to have a sense of wonder that's natural ,I think God is just a bit worse for wear in another Universe which is totally inhabitated by yeast fermentations and he is now in a semi unconscious stupor or am I projecting my state on him.