A Conscious Creator In Sikhi And Other Faith Traditions?

spnadmin · Apr 1, 2013

Ishna said:
So.. who is Tu who is All-knowing without a consciousness, and what remains when the universe no longer remains?

This isn't me speculating or trying to imagine the 'creator' with my puny human brain. I'm just quoting Gurbani. I am reading the right book, yeah?

Ishna ji

A 3-part reply

1. You ask about "You" and I would add "He"... Who is Guruji talking to if not to a conscious entity? Could Guruji be talking to a nonhuman entity. Gurbani is poetry and in poetry "personification" is used in many ways, including addressing "Tu". Human characteristics and names are given to nonhuman ideas so that readers and listeners in sangat can make a strong connection with the ideas that are being presented in a shabad.

From English poetry, John Keats writes in Ode on a Grecian Urn, "Thou still unravished bride of quietness." "Thou" is the urn and he calls the urn "bride of quietness."

Personification in poetry is the process of giving human traits or characteristics to a non-human object or idea. The form of poetry generally involves using figurative language — that is, words and phrases with a meaning other than the standard definition — to convey an idea or emotion. Using personification in poetry helps the reader develop a connection between a distant object or idea and feel empathy or sympathy for that idea or object. Poets often use personification to help the reader relate to the concept being presented, and to give a more complete understanding of a difficult concept to comprehend. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-function-of-personification-in-poetry.htm

That is part of the true genius of Gurbani. It is great poetry.

On what you are also asking.

2. I think this is the 5th line from the bottom, and the 4th from the bottom which contains the tuk about the universe no longer remains ("which he has created departs").

ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ ॥
So▫ī so▫ī saḏā sacẖ sāhib sācẖā sācẖī nā▫ī.
That True Lord is True, Forever True, and True is His Name.

ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ ॥
Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī racẖnā jin racẖā▫ī.
He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs.

In the verse, "That the True Lord is True, Forever True, and True is His Name" are ideas that follow from the Mool Mantar. Did anyone in the thread so far dispute those ideas? Or are you connecting that verse and creator consciousness?

3. I don't see the next verse shedding much light on whether the creator is conscious but I included the verse because it raises an interesting issue. The permanence of the creator is asserted in the verse. The "sat" continues even when the universe is no more, when it no longer remains. If there is no one left to ponder, does it even matter whether the creator is conscious?

Why do we care even now whether the sat is conscious? Is it not more the point in Gurbani that we be conscious of the sat?

spnadmin · Apr 1, 2013

Scarlet Pimpernel said:
Isi its ok to have a sense of wonder that's natural ,I think God is just a bit worse for wear in another Universe which is totally inhabitated by yeast fermentations and he is now in a semi unconscious stupor.

SP ji

It has been a personal struggle my entire time on the thread to banish similar/unwanted thoughts from my own consciousness. Brave you!

lol

Ishna · Apr 1, 2013

Nevermind the Punjabi classes, I think I need some English ones! :kaurfacepalm:

Adminji

Thanks for your efforts to educate me re. poetry. I'll ponder on that.

Regarding my quote of So Dar and pointing out the tuk about the end of the universe, that was meant to be in reply to Ambarsaria ji where he said "It is foolish of us to assign to the creator the quality that creation may die but you must live. Really let us think about it!"

The problem for me is not the question of whether the creator is conscious or not. The problem for me is how some can say they are an atheist but also believe in a creator that is not conscious and is not an energy or a force, when the majority of other teachings from Sikhi say there is a creator of some description, and the sacred text is poetry that continually alludes to some form of higher power.

But that's my problem to work out. It's all very complicated.

Ishna · Apr 1, 2013

Where does Guru fit into this picture? If there is no difference between Guru and 'creator' then where the heck does prasad come from? Gah, shoot me now. :realangrymunda:

Scarlet Pimpernel · Apr 1, 2013

Isi I think Guru is the enabler,prasad is the potentiality,maybe everything we can think of will be less than a cell of God, but still it's in essence him,we can extrapolate from this and our sense of self awareness some thing of his.

spnadmin · Apr 1, 2013

ishna ji

Thanks for the explanation.

Kanwaljit.Singh · Apr 1, 2013

I heard this Shabad and it got me thinking, it is like a puzzle with a missing piece:

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td> ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Dhanaasaree, Fifth Mehl:
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਪਾਨੀ ਪਖਾ ਪੀਸਉ ਸੰਤ ਆਗੈ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਜਸੁ ਗਾਈ ॥
I carry the water, wave the fan, and grind the corn for the Saints; I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੈ ਇਹੁ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
With each and every breath, my mind remembers the Naam, the Name of the Lord; in this way, it finds the treasure of peace. ||1||
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਇਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਾਈ ॥
Have pity on me, O my Lord and Master.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਐਸੀ ਮਤਿ ਦੀਜੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Bless me with such understanding, O my Lord and Master, that I may forever and ever meditate on You. ||1||Pause||
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੇ ਮੋਹੁ ਮਾਨੁ ਛੂਟੈ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਭਰਮਾਈ ॥
By Your Grace, emotional attachment and egotism are eradicated, and doubt is dispelled.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਅਨਦ ਰੂਪੁ ਰਵਿਓ ਸਭ ਮਧੇ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਪੇਖਉ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
The Lord, the embodiment of bliss, is pervading and permeating in all; wherever I go, there I see Him. ||2||
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਦਇਆਲ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਗੋਸਾਈ ॥
You are kind and compassionate, the treasure of mercy, the Purifier of sinners, Lord of the world.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕੋਟਿ ਸੂਖ ਆਨੰਦ ਰਾਜ ਪਾਏ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਨਿਮਖ ਬੁਲਾਈ ॥੩॥
I obtain millions of joys, comforts and kingdoms, if You inspire me to chant Your Name with my mouth, even for an instant. ||3||
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਾਪ ਤਾਪ ਭਗਤਿ ਸਾ ਪੂਰੀ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਈ ॥
That alone is perfect chanting, meditation, penance and devotional worship service, which is pleasing to God's Mind.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਸਭ ਬੁਝੀ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਅਘਾਈ ॥੪॥੧੦॥
Chanting the Naam, all thirst and desire is satisfied; Nanak is satisfied and fulfilled.
</td></tr></tbody></table>

Ambarsaria · Apr 1, 2013

Perhaps little off-topic but I believe we need to be using the words like "consciousness" with some precision. Why should all be just conscious when even for us, the people so modeling God/creator it is not so?

I abridged the following in part from the link below,

https://processcoaching.com/unconscious.html[/FONT]

'Under the Iceberg' Communication
To carry the iceberg metaphor forward, each of us can be represented as an iceberg, with the larger part of ourselves deeply submerged. And there's a place in the depths where all of our icebergs come together, a place in the unconscious where we connect with each other.

The psychologist Carl Jung has named this realm the 'Collective Unconscious.' This is the area of mind where all humanity shares experience, and from where we draw on the archetypal energies and symbols that are common to us all. 'Past life' memories are drawn from this level of the unconscious.

Another, even deeper level can be termed the 'Universal Unconscious' where experiences beyond just humanity's can also be accessed with regression process. It is at this level that many 'core issues' begin, and where their healing needs to be accomplished.

The unconscious connection 'under the iceberg' between people is often more potent than the conscious level connection, and an important consideration in doing the healing work. Relationship is an area rich with triggers to deeply buried material needing healing. And some parts of us cannot be triggered in any way other than 'under the iceberg.'

Although the conscious mind, steeped in cognition and thought, is able to deceive another... the unconscious mind, based in feeling, will often give us information from under the iceberg that contradicts what is being communicated consciously.

"Sounds right but feels wrong," is an example of information from under the iceberg surfacing in the conscious mind, but conflicting with what the conscious mind was able to get on its own. This kind of awareness is also called 'sentience,' the realm of 'intuition.'

Consciousness and Sentience
Another way of understanding the iceberg metaphor is to place 'consciousness' above the water line, and 'sentience' below.

Conscious awareness brings awareness of thoughts, visions and spiritual realities. Sentience is the feeling sense that conveys awareness of body sensations, intuition and deep emotional realities. Consciousness is associated with light, and at the trans-personal level, Spirit. It is the outgoing, yang, electric, thinking, 'masculine' kind of awareness.

Sentience is associated with darkness, and at the trans-personal level, the Mother of Creation. It is the more in-drawing, magnetic, feeling, 'feminine' kind of awareness. Both the culture and our own experiences have conditioned us to favor consciousness, and then encouraged us to increase and expand it. On the other hand, our deepest conditioning generally has told us to try to ignore or otherwise deny our sentient awareness whenever it feels 'bad.'

Intuition
Intuitive information comes without a searching of the conscious memory or a formulation to be filled by imagination. When we access the intuition, we seem to arrive at an insight by a path from unknown sources directly to the conscious awareness. Wham! Out of nowhere, in no time.

No matter what the precise neurological process, the ability to access and use information from the intuition is extremely valuable in the effective and creative use of the tools of self healing. In relating with others, it's important to realize that your intuition will bring you information about the other and your relationship from under the iceberg.

When your intuition is the source of your words and actions, they are usually much more appropriate and helpful than what thinking or other functions of the conscious mind could muster. What you do and say from the intuition in earnest communication will be meaningful to the other, even though it may not make sense to you.

The quickest and best way to nurture and develop your intuition is to trust all of your intuitive insights. Trust encourages the intuition to be more present. Its information is then more accessible and the conscious mind finds less reason to question, analyze or judge intuitive insights.

From this as an analogy to me the "Universal Unconsciousness" is perhaps a closer reflection of our nearness to the creator versus the "consciousness". Pretty fascinating it all is.

What you think!

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Folks I am no Psychologist or Psychiatrist I shared the above at the most lay level as I found it interesting. So be easy lol

arshdeep88 · Apr 1, 2013

Ambarsaria sir ji
of all the things u stated in your posts i am sorry i couldn't understand other things as this forum is above my mind to understand
not only your post but others post too
but i really really loved the song "Dhana Pani"
you posted,i really loved it and admire it lot
thank you for it
:icecreammunda:

Luckysingh · Apr 1, 2013

We are made in the image of God. Likewise, the khalsa is made in the image of Guru Gobind Singh ji.
If/when we are conscious of God, then He too, is conscious of us. Likewise, if we are not conscious of him, then he too is not conscious of us.
When we realise God, then He too, realises us !
''When we are at peace after realisation, then he too, is at peace with us''

Tejwant Singh · Apr 1, 2013

Spnadmin ji,

Guru Fateh.

You
summed it up beautifully.

Why do we care even now whether the sat is conscious? Is it not more the point in Gurbani that we be conscious of the sat?

When we are conscious of the Satt, then only we can realise Its beauty and grandeur. Only our consciousness of The One can help us grow in all aspects. This is the only Miraclegro we have through the SGGS.

Whether Ik Ong Kaar is conscious or not does not even come into the equation. It is us who should not become unconscious(drenched in apathy) of his/her/its omnipresence. This is the ultimate conscious thing we can do to dwell in/with Satt.

Harkiran Kaur · Apr 1, 2013

Luckysingh said:
We are made in the image of God. Likewise, the khalsa is made in the image of Guru Gobind Singh ji.
If/when we are conscious of God, then He too, is conscious of us. Likewise, if we are not conscious of him, then he too is not conscious of us.
When we realise God, then He too, realises us !
''When we are at peace after realisation, then he too, is at peace with us''

As Above, So Below!

spnadmin · Apr 1, 2013

Luckysingh ji

I am wondering about these questions so I can understand your point of view.

Luckysingh said:
We are made in the image of God.

What is that image of us that is like the image of God?

Likewise, if we are not conscious of him, then he too is not conscious of us.

If he is conscious, would not the creator of everything be conscious of his entire creation, not just of us, and whether we were paying attention or not? Or whether any plant or animal or stone was conscious or not?

When we realise God, then He too, realises us !

Why would the "sat," truth, depend on us in order to realize us? And does not Gurbani say that the same light pervades us all.

"The same Light pervades all.

This Light causes the light to shine within all.

When we are at peace after realisation, then he too, is at peace with us''

If he is without fear, without enmity, the great giver who keeps on giving, when would he not be a peace, with us and with all he has created? He is pooran, unbroken, perfect. Who or what could disturb his peace? How could he be anything but at peace?

Many thanks in advance for your answers.

Luckysingh · Apr 1, 2013

Luckysingh said:
We are made in the image of God. Likewise, the khalsa is made in the image of Guru Gobind Singh ji.
If/when we are conscious of God, then He too, is conscious of us. Likewise, if we are not conscious of him, then he too is not conscious of us.
When we realise God, then He too, realises us !
''When we are at peace after realisation, then he too, is at peace with us''

Adminji, I don't think that you quite got my post or the underlying message !!
Sorry for confusing, but I am no serious poet although I was trying to dabble a little here!!0

:sippingcoffeemunda:

All the above post was trying to say was- that the only conscious we should be worrying about is our own!!
In other words, ''We should just focus on being Conscious of Him'' !
:kaurkhalsaflagblue:

Luckysingh · Apr 1, 2013

Akasha said:
As Above, So Below!

As without, so within.
The expanse and grand of the universe is just as huge and infinite as within.
Thus we,universe,creator and creation are all One, just like consciousness !
What separates us from each other ?
It's certainly not the consciousness from what I gather!

Harkiran Kaur · Apr 2, 2013

Luckysingh said:
As without, so within.
The expanse and grand of the universe is just as huge and infinite as within.
Thus we,universe,creator and creation are all One, just like consciousness !
What separates us from each other ?
It's certainly not the consciousness from what I gather!

Luckysingh Ji, you are the only one who thinks like I do on here it seems

oh and Chaz Singh Ji as well!!! That's my point, if everything IS consciousness, then everything is ONE, because consciousness does not occupy space / time / physical locality. It exists beyond it as formless, all knowing, and it is only ONE.

We just can't see that we are really ONE from our current vantage point. I like to think of myself as being like a radio receiver and I am just hard tuned into the physical reality right now.... but in reality just like a radio receives ALL information for all channels all the time, its only that you tune into a specific station that allows you to discern the elements of that 'station' (reality). The trick is we have to learn to detune the physical, and realize ALL channels existing at once as ONE signal. That detuning I believe is what we experience when the tenth gate is opened.

spnadmin · Apr 2, 2013

Luckysingh said:
Adminji, I don't think that you quite got my post or the underlying message !!
Sorry for confusing, but I am no serious poet although I was trying to dabble a little here!!0:sippingcoffeemunda:

All the above post was trying to say was- that the only conscious we should be worrying about is our own!!
In other words, ''We should just focus on being Conscious of Him'' !
:kaurkhalsaflagblue:

Luckysingh ji

I did not form any conclusions at all about your comments. I simply asked if you would answer my questions. So there is no way I could be confused. We are not at that point yet. I assumed you gave some thought to your comments before you posted them, and would want to reply. Here they are again, your comments in black and my questions in blue.

You said: We are made in the image of God.

I asked: What is that image of us that is like the image of God?

You said: Likewise, if we are not conscious of him, then he too is not conscious of us.

I asked: If he is conscious, would not the creator of everything be conscious of his entire creation, not just of us, and whether we were paying attention or not? Or whether any plant or animal or stone was conscious or not?

You said: When we realise God, then He too, realises us !

I asked: Why would the "sat," truth, depend on us in order to realize us? And does not Gurbani say that the same light pervades us all.

"The same Light pervades all.

This Light causes the light to shine within all."

You said: When we are at peace after realisation, then he too, is at peace with us''

I asked: If he is without fear, without enmity, the great giver who keeps on giving, when would he not be a peace, with us and with all he has created? He is pooran, unbroken, perfect. Who or what could disturb his peace? How could he be anything but at peace?

p/s Are you actually agreeing with me? lol

All the above post was trying to say was- that the only conscious we should be worrying about is our own!!
In other words, ''We should just focus on being Conscious of Him''

Sounds an awful lot like Why do we care even now whether the sat is conscious? Is it not more the point in Gurbani that we be conscious of the sat? http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inter...ikhi-other-faith-traditions-2.html#post182182

Harkiran Kaur · Apr 2, 2013

spnadmin said:
Why do we care even now whether the sat is conscious? Is it not more the point in Gurbani that we be conscious of the sat?

But isn't the point of being conscious of the sat, to realize that separateness is an illusion and everyone and everything are really ONE? Gurbani speaks of this ONEness all throughout the SGGS so I won't get into quoting just one line... And if everything is really ONE, then aren't they the same thing? (us and sat) SGGS also has many quotes talking of the divine light within all of us, and recognizing that divine light within ourselves. There are many quotes I could post where it commands us to realize who we really are.... our 'true self' And if us / sat are of the same ONE thing, and we are conscious, then sat must also be conscious??

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>SGGS Pg. 60.
</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰਿ ॥੫॥

मनमुखि सोझी ना पवै गुरमुखि सदा हजूरि ॥५॥

Manmukẖ sojẖī nā pavai gurmukẖ saḏā hajūr. ||5||

Understanding does not come to the self-willed manmukh. But to the Gurmukh, the Lord is always close. ||5||

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਗਣਤ ਗਣਾਵਣੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥

मनमुखि गणत गणावणी करता करे सु होइ ॥

Manmukẖ gaṇaṯ gaṇāvaṇī karṯā kare so ho▫e.

The self-willed manmukhs make their calculations and plans, but only the actions of the Creator come to pass.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਜੇ ਲੋਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥

ता की कीमति ना पवै जे लोचै सभु कोइ ॥

Ŧā kī kīmaṯ nā pavai je locẖai sabẖ ko▫e.

His Value cannot be estimated, even though everyone may wish to do so.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਚਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੬॥

गुरमति होइ त पाईऐ सचि मिलै सुखु होइ ॥६॥

Gurmaṯ ho▫e ṯa pā▫ī▫ai sacẖ milai sukẖ ho▫e. ||6||

Through the Guru's Teachings, it is revealed. Meeting with the True One, peace is found. ||6||

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਚਾ ਨੇਹੁ ਨ ਤੁਟਈ ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ਸੋਇ ॥

सचा नेहु न तुटई जे सतिगुरु भेटै सोइ ॥

Sacẖā nehu na ṯut▫ī je saṯgur bẖetai so▫e.

True love shall not be broken, if the True Guru is met.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗਿਆਨ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਇ ॥

गिआन पदारथु पाईऐ त्रिभवण सोझी होइ ॥

Gi▫ān paḏārath pā▫ī▫ai ṯaribẖavaṇ sojẖī ho▫e.

Obtaining the wealth of spiritual wisdom, the understanding of the three worlds is acquired.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਜੇ ਗੁਣ ਕਾ ਗਾਹਕੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੭॥

निरमलु नामु न वीसरै जे गुण का गाहकु होइ ॥७॥

Nirmal nām na vīsrai je guṇ kā gāhak ho▫e. ||7||

So become a customer of merit, and do not forget the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||7||

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਖੇਲਿ ਗਏ ਸੇ ਪੰਖਣੂੰ ਜੋ ਚੁਗਦੇ ਸਰ ਤਲਿ ॥

खेलि गए से पंखणूं जो चुगदे सर तलि ॥

Kẖel ga▫e se paŉkẖ▫ṇūŉ jo cẖugḏe sar ṯal.

Those birds which peck at the shore of the pool have played and have departed.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਘੜੀ ਕਿ ਮੁਹਤਿ ਕਿ ਚਲਣਾ ਖੇਲਣੁ ਅਜੁ ਕਿ ਕਲਿ ॥

घड़ी कि मुहति कि चलणा खेलणु अजु कि कलि ॥

Gẖaṛī kė muhaṯ kė cẖalṇā kẖelaṇ aj kė kal.

In a moment, in an instant, we too must depart. Our play is only for today or tomorrow.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਮੇਲਹਿ ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਚਾ ਪਿੜੁ ਮਲਿ ॥੮॥

जिसु तूं मेलहि सो मिलै जाइ सचा पिड़ु मलि ॥८॥

Jis ṯūŉ melėh so milai jā▫e sacẖā piṛ mal. ||8||

But those whom You unite, Lord, are united with You; they obtain a seat in the Arena of Truth. ||8||

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਊਪਜੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

बिनु गुर प्रीति न ऊपजै हउमै मैलु न जाइ ॥

Bin gur parīṯ na ūpjai ha▫umai mail na jā▫e.

Without the Guru, love does not well up, and the filth of egotism does not depart.

</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#babac7><TD>ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥

सोहं आपु पछाणीऐ सबदि भेदि पतीआइ ॥

Sohaŉ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e.

One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥

गुरमुखि आपु पछाणीऐ अवर कि करे कराइ ॥९॥

Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9||

When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||
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Sooooo.... Self realization revelas to us the truth? realizing who we are and that "he is me" The entire shabad is talking about egotism and self will of being a separate physical being. But when we look within we see that "he is me" when we realize our "own self". Since the entire shabad is referencing rembrance of God / the Lord / the Creator and it says that when we look within ourselves and realize our 'own self' and we realize that 'He is Me' I just can't see how that could be symbolic of anything or just poetry. It's in pretty plain language that it's saying that we (collectively) and the creator are ONE.

If we are conscious individually, then surely collectively as ONE we must also be conscious (on a whole lot larger scale), but definitely not unconscious!

And to answer your questions to Luckysing:

What is that image of us that is like the image of God?

Consciousness / the divine light within us

If he is conscious, would not the creator of everything be conscious of his entire creation, not just of us, and whether we were paying attention or not? Or whether any plant or animal or stone was conscious or not?

Yes exactly! Since everything is really ONE, then collectively, the ONE would be conscious of EVERYTHING.

Why would the "sat," truth, depend on us in order to realize us? And does not Gurbani say that the same light pervades us all.

"The same Light pervades all.

This Light causes the light to shine within all."

Because the ONE, existing without form, without beginning or end, and with no companions or enemies, without thought would be unable to contemplate itself. Only by experiencing itself through its own thought / creation subjectively through the characters it created, (see SGGS pg 736.. the actor stages the play AND plays all the characters but when the play is over, there is only ONE) Only by experiencing through its own creation consciously, would it have a way to contemplate its own existence. And even then, those ideas are comparisons based from within the 'play' or 'dream' etc. Only when we all realize consciously that we are ONE will this come to fruition. Only when we realize who we are. We are PART of the awakening! We have to shed our individual identity and realize that there is only ONE of us here!

If he is without fear, without enmity, the great giver who keeps on giving, when would he not be a peace, with us and with all he has created? He is pooran, unbroken, perfect. Who or what could disturb his peace? How could he be anything but at peace?

"He" is not separate from creation, he is both creator AND the creation. He is both experiencing from outside and within it. You are correct, nothing can disturb his peace because at that level of ONEness, there is nothing to fear. From within creation and experiencing as part of it, the cause of all fear is because we do not remember the ONEness. We only know separateness.

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spnadmin · Apr 2, 2013

Akasha ji

as long as we don't say things like "As above, So below" I presume we are not thinking in a dualistic mindset. But someone did http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inter...-sikhi-other-faith-traditions.html#post182235

On the other hand ... Oneness and the question of the thread "consciousness of creator" are not yet shown to be connected. I think the second is the thread topic.

Harkiran Kaur · Apr 2, 2013

spnadmin said:
Akasha ji

as long as we don't say things like "As above, So below" I presume we are not thinking in a dualistic mindset. But someone did http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inter...-sikhi-other-faith-traditions.html#post182235

On the other hand ... Oneness and the question of the thread "consciousness of creator" are not yet shown to be connected. I think the second is the thread topic.

I was trying to show that oneness and consciousness ARE connected... that because of ONEness, it shows us that the creator must be conscious. Because if everything is ONE (including us) and we are conscious, then doesn't that show that we should all still be conscious when put together collectively... only on a much higher level that we can't fathom? Like being aware of billions upon billions of lives, species, experiences and eons, all at once and being conscious from the point of view of all creation at once. It's kind of mind boggling... but definitely not unconscious as in dreamless sleep.

And the as above so below comment was in response to what Lucky Singh Ji said... that we are made in the image of the creator (not physically) but we contain the same spark... the same divine light... which I believe is consciousness itself. As above so below does imply duality, which is our current condition of separateness. But it tells us that we posess the same quality (within) as our creator....and in fact we are one in the same. Its only the personal experience or perception that is duality.

As Above So Below is from a purely mystical spiritual tradition (Hermetics), not a steadfast religion, however we broached the topic of 'other faith traditions' in this thread long ago, so I thought it ok to make the comparison which is related to the debate of consciousness...

not meaning to step on any nerves ji...

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