Akal Takhat Says No To Kirtan Sewa By Women At Darbar Sahib

[Bmandur]

OFF TRACK...women have always had a higher IQ....and so may be BETTER KIRTANIYAS than Men any day....heres the proof:

These three scientists decided to go fishing one day. So they
packed up all of their gear and headed down to the lake.

They were having terrible luck, they weren't catching a thing.
But all the sudden, one of the scientists feels a pull at his
line. He shouts out, "I got something, I got something!"

So he reels his catch in and much to his surprise, it's a
Mermaid. She tells the scientists, "If you let me go, I will
grant you each one wish." Well they think that's a pretty good
deal, so they agree.

The first scientist, the one who caught the Mermaid, tells her,
"I want you to double my IQ." The Mermaid says, no problem.
Snaps her fingers, and suddenly he's solving all of these
problems they had been working on for months.

So the next scientist thinks that's pretty neat, so he tells
the Mermaid, "I want you to tripple my IQ." So the Mermaid
says, "No problem." snaps her fingers once again, and now this
scientist is finding cures for AIDS and Cancer.

So the last scientist is really excited about all of this. He
tells the Mermaid, "I want you to quadruple my IQ."

The Mermaid looks at him and says, "Are you sure about this?
I'm not so sure you want to do that." But the scientist is
stubborn and tells her, "You granted the other guys wishes, now
grant mine or we're not letting you go."

So the Mermaid sighs and says, "Whatever you want." She snaps
her fingers and the scientist turned into a woman.

At least some one said the Truth Gyani Jee

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

i think the decision is abysmal.

not permitting women to perform kirtan and palki sewa to our women folks is totally against guru granth sahib. Guru ji has given equal rights tommen and women. " so kiun manda akheye jis jamen rajan" says our guru granth sahib. This ban on women is misdeed of akal takhat jathedar and head giani of harmandir sahib. This is mater of utter shame to these self style chowdhari of harmandir sahib. Sikhs all over the world are very much annoyd for this act of of the chiefs of akar takhat and harimandir sahib. They should immediately lift this ban and allow fully baptized women sikh to perform all these sewas in sri harmadir saihb.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

not permitting women to perform kirtan and palki sewa to our women folks is totally against guru granth sahib. Guru ji has given equal rights tommen and women. " so kiun manda akheye jis jamen rajan" says our guru granth sahib. This ban on women is misdeed of akal takhat jathedar and head giani of harmandir sahib. This is mater of utter shame to these self style chowdhari of harmandir sahib. Sikhs all over the world are very much annoyd for this act of of the chiefs of akar takhat and harimandir sahib. They should immediately lift this ban and allow fully baptized women sikh to perform all these sewas in sri harmadir saihb.

In order for that to happen, Damdami Taksal needs to be removed from power... Even though SGPC Sikh Rehet Maryada is supposed to be installed at Sri Harmandir Sahib, it is the Taksals Gurmat Rehet Maryada which is being followed... and who are the opposers of women doing this seva?? Damdami Taksal and Sant Samaj. The problem is, that there needs to be more Sikh Missionary College trained in Akal Takht, and less DDT trained. Until then, DDT will get their way...

As a side note: Damdami Taksal's views on women can be summed up by one statement in their Gurmat Rehet Maryada, where a Singh is told to view his Singhni as his faithful follower, while the Singhi is told to view her husband as God.

It's easy to find if you want to verify it in the GRM. With thinking like this, it's no surprise that DDT oppose women being treated equally.

 

[Abneet]

In order for that to happen, Damdami Taksal needs to be removed from power... Even though SGPC Sikh Rehet Maryada is supposed to be installed at Sri Harmandir Sahib, it is the Taksals Gurmat Rehet Maryada which is being followed... and who are the opposers of women doing this seva?? Damdami Taksal and Sant Samaj. The problem is, that there needs to be more Sikh Missionary College trained in Akal Takht, and less DDT trained. Until then, DDT will get their way...

As a side note: Damdami Taksal's views on women can be summed up by one statement in their Gurmat Rehet Maryada, where a Singh is told to view his Singhni as his faithful follower, while the Singhi is told to view her husband as God.

It's easy to find if you want to verify it in the GRM. With thinking like this, it's no surprise that DDT oppose women being treated equally.

DDT do a better job of parchar aboard India to be honest than Akal Takht and their missionary groups. Also I agree on DDT on the stance of only males allowed in the panj pyare, but for kirtan sewa I see them degrading women rights in Sikhi and they definitely should be allowed as they are allowed to do other seva...makes no sense. As of right now DDT and Akal Takht aren't going to change because of the lack of leadership in the Panth.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

DDT do a better job of parchar aboard India to be honest than Akal Takht and their missionary groups. Also I agree on DDT on the stance of only males allowed in the panj pyare, but for kirtan sewa I see them degrading women rights in Sikhi and they definitely should be allowed as they are allowed to do other seva...makes no sense. As of right now DDT and Akal Takht aren't going to change because of the lack of leadership in the Panth.

For Panj Pyare, DDT's only argument is that there were only males in the first five. However, Amrit Sanchar is not a mere reenactment, if it were, and if that is the reason, then also those castes who did not volunteer their heads in the first five should also be excluded. You can't pick and choose which bits to reenact or not. Either it's an exact reenactment or it isn't.

Their reasons for excluding women in all other seva are the same as the reason they restrict women from Panj Pyare seva. I posted an in-depth look at on another forum here:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/...mat-rehet-maryada-damdami-taksal/#entry138537

I urge you to read it, and see what I mean about their attitude towards women. It goes much deeper than just saying 'sorry dear men only'

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

DDT do a better job of parchar aboard India to be honest than Akal Takht and their missionary groups. Also I agree on DDT on the stance of only males allowed in the panj pyare, but for kirtan sewa I see them degrading women rights in Sikhi and they definitely should be allowed as they are allowed to do other seva...makes no sense. As of right now DDT and Akal Takht aren't going to change because of the lack of leadership in the Panth.

This is very unfortunate. It is totally against Siri Guru Granth Sahib teachings in which it clearly written at many places that women and men are equal. Read this
"SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAME RAJAN" The women who give birth to kings, or Our Gurus, why we denigrate her. It is only mono ply and high handednes of our sikh leaders may be DDT or Akal,Takhat. This will have very damaging effect on our future generation, who will,loose faith in siri Guru Franth Sahib. This may bring end to sikhi faith.
AT OTHER PLACE GURU GRANTH SAHIB SAYS. ".........NARI PURAKH HAI PURAKH HAI NARI......... "

 

[Tejwant Singh]

This is very unfortunate. It is totally against Siri Guru Granth Sahib teachings in which it clearly written at many places that women and men are equal. Read this
"SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAME RAJAN" The women who give birth to kings, or Our Gurus, why we denigrate her. It is only mono ply and high handednes of our sikh leaders may be DDT or Akal,Takhat. This will have very damaging effect on our future generation, who will,loose faith in siri Guru Franth Sahib. This may bring end to sikhi faith.
AT OTHER PLACE GURU GRANTH SAHIB SAYS. ".........NARI PURAKH HAI PURAKH HAI NARI......... "

Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree with you and did write about it in this post earlier and also in an article about inequality called, "The Bogey Men" which can be found here.

However, there is one caveat regarding the translation of,""SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAME RAJAN" in my opinion.

Rajan- Kings were not noble people but the worst kinds of scums who plundered, killed, raped and did many other bad things at will. Our Gurbani- Babavani, our history about the Mughals and the Hindu Kings and the the Sikhi literature by our 10th Guru- Zafarnaama prove the fiendish nature of these cruelest of the cruel.

Taking the above in context, the meaning of, "SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAME RAJAN" is not the same as many historians and also common Sikhs see it by considering Rajan being some kind of noble class,hence giving them reverence.

It rather means,"Why talk ill about those who even gave birth to the lowest of the low(Rajan). Here the only noble are the women. No one else.

Lastly, would you be kind enough to give the page number of "NARI PURAKH HAI PURAKH HAI NARI"? And please make it a normal thing to post the whole shabad with your own understanding which may differ from the normally misleading literal translation as it is requested from all so others can also learn from it. Your input is of utmost importance in this forum.

Thanks & Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

I beg to differ with your translation and interpretation. Guru granth sahib has given equal,status to man and women in entire bani. So not allowing women to recite kirtan in harmandar sahib is desicration of our guru granth sahib. Asadi war you will,find all these shabads.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I beg to differ with your translation and interpretation. Guru granth sahib has given equal,status to man and women in entire bani. So not allowing women to recite kirtan in harmandar sahib is desicration of our guru granth sahib. Asadi war you will,find all these shabads.

Seth ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea if your above post is in response to my post. If it is, then you totally misunderstood it for the reasons known to you about it because I totally agree with you regarding the equal status and equality of women and that is exactly what I said several times in this thread and also in others.

What do you find wrong with women being noble rather than the fiendish kings whom they gave birth to and who called themselves nobles by raping and plundering?

And I am still waiting for your understanding of the whole shabad with the page number of which you mentioned the one liner.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

The argument given by Rajinder Singh Mehta is totally base less and incorect. I ask him to quote from Guru Granth Sahib where it has been written that a man is not equal to a woman.i advise him to carefully read Asa Di War and he will find this topic where Guru ji has given equal,statue to man and woman. This is only to keep monopoly and upper hand in Siri Harmadir Sahib not allowing baptized women to perform kirtan. One day this high handedness of male manager and Self styled Chowdharis will be broken .

 

[Abneet]

For Panj Pyare, DDT's only argument is that there were only males in the first five. However, Amrit Sanchar is not a mere reenactment, if it were, and if that is the reason, then also those castes who did not volunteer their heads in the first five should also be excluded. You can't pick and choose which bits to reenact or not. Either it's an exact reenactment or it isn't.

Their reasons for excluding women in all other seva are the same as the reason they restrict women from Panj Pyare seva. I posted an in-depth look at on another forum here:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/...mat-rehet-maryada-damdami-taksal/#entry138537

I urge you to read it, and see what I mean about their attitude towards women. It goes much deeper than just saying 'sorry dear men only'

Whatever the Gurus did were perfect and un-changable. No women offered their head at that time so it is unfortunate to have a women in the punj pyare. The 5 Singhs were chosen at that time. Even all their names have a significance and their background. It was perfectly picked. So what has happened during that amrit sanchar in 1699 cannot be changed what so ever. None of the Gurus were women......will some Sikh woman argue God doesn't think women can be a prophet etc....

I'll take a look at that link though for sure.

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

All over the world gurdwaras women are allowed to perform kirtan except in harmandir sahib. Why it is so, can any one enlighten.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Whatever the Gurus did were perfect and un-changable. No women offered their head at that time so it is unfortunate to have a women in the punj pyare. The 5 Singhs were chosen at that time. Even all their names have a significance and their background. It was perfectly picked. So what has happened during that amrit sanchar in 1699 cannot be changed what so ever. None of the Gurus were women......will some Sikh woman argue God doesn't think women can be a prophet etc....

I'll take a look at that link though for sure.

So then no shoe maker caste can be panj pyare either? (I forget the caste name) but are only the five original castes allowed to be panj? If the significance of the exact emulation of the original five is so important... No shoe maker volunteered that day. How about gora men? There were no goras who gave their head that day. Or black men? How come nobody would contest any of them when their ethnicity or caste did not give their head that day? ...That is the same excuse being used to bar women.

Besides SRM states panj pyare can be either. It specifically says women can. So that should be the final word.

"Ceremony of Baptism or Initiation

Article XXIV

a. Ambrosial baptism should be held at an exclusive place away from common human traffic.

b. At the place where ambrosial baptism is to be administered, the holy Guru Granth Sahib should be installed and ceremonially opened. Also present should be six committed baptised Sikhs, one of whom should sit in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib and the other five should be there to administer the ambrosial baptism. These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair"

 

[Harry Haller]

These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair"<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

but not disabled women!

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

The sixth woman mamber can sfit in tabia, in attendance of siri guru granth sahib. The five men member can perform Baptising cere money.

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

The five can perform baptizing ceremony. The sixth woman member can sit in tabia, in attendance of siri guru granth sahib . This may be good arrangement.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

The five can perform baptizing ceremony. The sixth woman member can sit in tabia, in attendance of siri guru granth sahib . This may be good arrangement.

The wording in Sikh Rehet Maryada is that any of the six may be women. Not that five men must be Panj and the Granthi may be a woman.

The point is, Amrit removes all notions of class or heirarchy of everyone. It puts Khalsa all on equal level. Thats why they drink Amrit from the same bowl. Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ teaches of the same divine light in every human equally. Gender is transitory and only necessary for physical procreation. Our souls are all female anyway... (we are all soul brides) The gender of the first five doesnt matter, any more than their castes did. This is the teachings that our Gurus taught. Sikhi dropped *mostly* casteism, but kept sexism, and people speak as if gender discrimination is ok, even if they consider all other forms of discrimination are not ok. Why is gender so different? Why is it so easy for men to see women in this way? Why such a grudge to think that all women should be punished for all time, because of what a few women either did or didn't do over 300 years ago. Those few women were hardly representative of ALL women for ALL time. Panj Pyare are not limited to the five castes that were in the original five, so why is gender any different??

The point becomes, if women can take Amrit, but not perform all duties that Khalsa can perform, then are they truly ever seen as fully Khalsa? Why bother to give women Amrit at all?

The other issue, goes well beyond mere allowing or disallowing something. Every Sikh is told to strive for taking Amrit. To say that one gender is entirely dependent on the other for their spiritual progression, suggests that women are lacking in spirituality compared to men and so they 'require' men in order spiritually advance. That's a huge statement to make and that thinking was prominent in Hinduism, Islam etc. I thought all of our Gurus sought to abolish that??

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

Sir, i fully agree with you on this issue. I only suggested that to start with women should be allowed to perform kirtan in Sri Harmandar Sahib and be allowed to,sit in Tabia, attendance of Siri Guru Granth Sahib at the stage. This should be minimum what should be allowed to our baptized sikh women. I will,cite a sad event. A kirtan Jatha of fully baptised ladies in white dresses and white turbans came from New Maxico Famous Gurdwara in USA. They were trained by Harbhajan Singh Yogi of New Maxico. These ladies jatha wanted to perform kirtan in Siri Harmandar Sahib. They were point blankly refused. So they returned to USA dis heartened and utterly disappointed.
The address is : 1A, Ram Das Guru pl, Espanola, NM 87532 (USA), Email: Support@Sikhnet.com

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Sir, i fully agree with you on this issue. I only suggested that to start with women should be allowed to perform kirtan in Sri Harmandar Sahib and be allowed to,sit in Tabia, attendance of Siri Guru Granth Sahib at the stage. This should be minimum what should be allowed to our baptized sikh women. I will,cite a sad event. A kirtan Jatha of fully baptised ladies in white dresses and white turbans came from New Maxico Famous Gurdwara in USA. They were trained by Harbhajan Singh Yogi of New Maxico. These ladies jatha wanted to perform kirtan in Siri Harmandar Sahib. They were point blankly refused. So they returned to USA dis heartened and utterly disappointed.
The address is : 1A, Ram Das Guru pl, Espanola, NM 87532 (USA), Email: Support@Sikhnet.com

Actually I think they still did kirtan, but did on the second level... and had as many people up there with them, as were in the downstairs of the sanctum sanctorum.

Uncle Ji, by the way I am a woman and about to take Amrit too in India (I actually leave for India tomorrow)

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

I wish and pray all the best to you. May Waheguru be with you in journey and you reach Amritsar safe . I am very happy to learn about you. Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh.