Akal Takhat Says No To Kirtan Sewa By Women At Darbar Sahib

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

It is not only women , they also don't allow a muslim Ragi Jatha. To perform kirtan in Harmandar sahib . You see i am of about eighty years of age . I remember in my child hood before partition there was very famous muslim ragi jatha know by the name of BHAI CHAND Ragi jatha. I had the fortune of listening his kirtan in Peshawar in Bhai Joga Singh historic Gurdwara where he performed kirtan. He was clean shaved but used to tie beautiful white turban. All his companion used to tie turban.. He was so famous that people used to come from far and wide to attend his kirtan. Once he came to Amritsar and wanted to perform kirtan. He was not allowed.
You see our guru Granth Sahib has hundreds of banis of Baba Freed a sufi saint muslim and Baba Kabir also originally muslim. But now this DDT and Akal Takhat Boses who are supposed to follow our Holy Granth Sahib, are just desecrating it and in a way insulting it. I resent it and pray to Akal Purakh to bestow Sammat to these Chowdharis of Harimandir sahib.
The very Foundation stone of Harmander Sahib was laid by Muslim Saint Mian Mir!

 

[Abneet]

So then no shoe maker caste can be panj pyare either? (I forget the caste name) but are only the five original castes allowed to be panj? If the significance of the exact emulation of the original five is so important... No shoe maker volunteered that day. How about gora men? There were no goras who gave their head that day. Or black men? How come nobody would contest any of them when their ethnicity or caste did not give their head that day? ...That is the same excuse being used to bar women.

Besides SRM states panj pyare can be either. It specifically says women can. So that should be the final word.

"Ceremony of Baptism or Initiation

Article XXIV

a. Ambrosial baptism should be held at an exclusive place away from common human traffic.

b. At the place where ambrosial baptism is to be administered, the holy Guru Granth Sahib should be installed and ceremonially opened. Also present should be six committed baptised Sikhs, one of whom should sit in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib and the other five should be there to administer the ambrosial baptism. These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair"

Is there proof that after Guru Gobind Singh Ji passed away has there ever been an amrit sanchar with a women included...and this is before makings of SRM....? So I'm asking proof of amrit sanchar with a woman after lets say 1740's through early 1900's?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Is there proof that after Guru Gobind Singh Ji passed away has there ever been an amrit sanchar with a women included...and this is before makings of SRM....? So I'm asking proof of amrit sanchar with a woman after lets say 1740's through early 1900's?

What does that have to do with anything? Even if there wasn't it doesn't mean women are not 'allowed' it just means there weren't any then. It doesn't mean there can't be any now. Women only got rights to vote in the west in the last 100 years, does that mean no women should be able to vote ever?

Let's move forward in society and the human race, not backward!

Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote his 52 hukams long after 1699 (1708 actually) and nowhere in there does say anything about restricting anything by gender. Certainly something as important as Panj Pyare having such a huge restriction, would have been written in there!?

What the Gurus taught was that gender (like caste) is transitory and illusion, just like this physical shell. Our true nature is nonphysical, and we are told we are all soul 'brides' having female soul. Amrit Sanchar is a highly spiritual event, not a mere reenactment of the original. There's not one reason why a male physical body would be needed.

And as I said... as Sikhs we are told we must strive to take Amrit as a goal in life. To say to women that they absolutely require men for this step while the men do not require women at all sends a very strong message of how women are seen in the eyes of our Creator. It is straight up saying that our Creator views females as spiritually lacking... which goes against the basic teachings of all of the Gurus!

Read in Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ where it says the divine light is in both male and female equally. Its saying that [God] is within all of us. How can any human decide whether or not [God] in the female form is any less worthy then [God] in the male form, when Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ tells us that the divine light is in both equally???

 

[Abneet]

What does that have to do with anything? Even if there wasn't it doesn't mean women are not 'allowed' it just means there weren't any then. It doesn't mean there can't be any now. Women only got rights to vote in the west in the last 100 years, does that mean no women should be able to vote ever?

Let's move forward in society and the human race, not backward!

Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote his 52 hukams long after 1699 (1708 actually) and nowhere in there does say anything about restricting anything by gender. Certainly something as important as Panj Pyare having such a huge restriction, would have been written in there!?

What the Gurus taught was that gender (like caste) is transitory and illusion, just like this physical shell. Our true nature is nonphysical, and we are told we are all soul 'brides' having female soul. Amrit Sanchar is a highly spiritual event, not a mere reenactment of the original. There's not one reason why a male physical body would be needed.

And as I said... as Sikhs we are told we must strive to take Amrit as a goal in life. To say to women that they absolutely require men for this step while the men do not require women at all sends a very strong message of how women are seen in the eyes of our Creator. It is straight up saying that our Creator views females as spiritually lacking... which goes against the basic teachings of all of the Gurus!

Read in Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ where it says the divine light is in both male and female equally. Its saying that [God] is within all of us. How can any human decide whether or not [God] in the female form is any less worthy then [God] in the male form, when Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ tells us that the divine light is in both equally???

I agree with you, but amrit sanchar is something that hasn't changed since 1699 until SRM came into play in the 1900's. When you have a punj pyare you are resembling the original 5 (which are all males because no female volunteered) so that's why it should be kept that way. Just because we are moving forward doen't mean we have to accept this and that on the way cuz some things are meant to stay in that way as the example above.

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

I fully agree and support the opinion of Amritpalsingh ji. The Chowdharis in Akal Takhat and Dam Dami Taksal think themselves superior to siri Guru Granth Sahib and are practising their own version. It is shame to these Chowdharis to go against Guru Granth Sahib. They are not worth even Sweepers of Akal Takhat or siri Harmandar Sahib. One day they will,be thrown out of the premises of Harmandar Sahib.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I agree with you, but amrit sanchar is something that hasn't changed since 1699 until SRM came into play in the 1900's. When you have a punj pyare you are resembling the original 5 (which are all males because no female volunteered) so that's why it should be kept that way. Just because we are moving forward doen't mean we have to accept this and that on the way cuz some things are meant to stay in that way as the example above.

Right so only the original five castes can be Panj Pyare too? Or Black or White men? None of those volunteered that day... so they shouldn't be Panj Pyare either right? If it's an exact replica of the first...

Forgive me for saying, but your comment sounds like a 300 year old grudge on women. What the few women did or didn't do that day, should not punish ALL women for ALL time because of it. The castes who did not volunteer their heads that day can be Panj right? Why is that not held against them?

 

[Abneet]

Right so only the original five castes can be Panj Pyare too? Or Black or White men? None of those volunteered that day... so they shouldn't be Panj Pyare either right? If it's an exact replica of the first...

Forgive me for saying, but your comment sounds like a 300 year old grudge on women. What the few women did or didn't do that day, should not punish ALL women for ALL time because of it. The castes who did not volunteer their heads that day can be Panj right? Why is that not held against them?

Lol nah I got no grudge I just went strict on your reply. Your thinking too hard on this topic. I don't know how much you know about the puratan meryada and its content but why is it that 5 males have been used ever since Guru Ji's time. No women was used after that time period after Guru Gobind Singh Ji's death. Missionaries all over the place set up by dasvee patshaah before he passed guarantee you that punj pyare were always male and thats why that tradition was kept. The caste part has nothing to do with it because one you receive amrit caste is pointless. We are talking about gender here. The punj pyare during amrit sanchar is the Guru's form Himself. All men due to first 5 males to volunteer.

Now unless you can get real authentic evidence amrit sanchar included Singhnis during 1700's and 1800's I would be real interested and might be convinced.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Lol nah I got no grudge I just went strict on your reply. Your thinking too hard on this topic. I don't know how much you know about the puratan meryada and its content but why is it that 5 males have been used ever since Guru Ji's time. No women was used after that time period after Guru Gobind Singh Ji's death. Missionaries all over the place set up by dasvee patshaah before he passed guarantee you that punj pyare were always male and thats why that tradition was kept. The caste part has nothing to do with it because one you receive amrit caste is pointless. We are talking about gender here. The punj pyare during amrit sanchar is the Guru's form Himself. All men due to first 5 males to volunteer.

Now unless you can get real authentic evidence amrit sanchar included Singhnis during 1700's and 1800's I would be real interested and might be convinced.

Actually the Gurus taught that ALL form of discrimination were removed, any form of perceived hierarchy and class were removed with amrit. That includes gender. The only reason that it has mostly been all men, is culture. Just because a culture has a tradition doesn't make it right.... And religion is beyond culture. Sikhi is supposed to be a religion for everyone for all time.

Guru Ji never wrote down anywhere that it had to be all males (In his 52 hukams would have been REALLY good place had the idea of a gender hierarchy been important to him, especially since he wrote them in 1708...but his silence on the issue speaks volumes!).

Our souls are all the same, the ***** *male organ* is only used for procreation, and has nothing to do with Amrit Sanchar. In fact, this whole bloody reality is illusion and we are told in Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ that everything is really the ONE... women also drink from the same bowl when taking Amrit. Therefore, ALL initiates are placed at the SAME level. Men and women both! This argument that no women gave their head when Guru Ji asked is a grudge against women.

And as for Guru Ji's form, he knew that we are all ONE. He instructed Khalsa to keep in his roop... not just the males. So therefore Khalsa period is his image. The gender of the person does not matter.

 

[kggr001]

The punj pyare during amrit sanchar is the Guru's form Himself. All men due to first 5 males to volunteer.

Everyone who is pure is the Guru's form himself.

“Khalsa mero Roop hai khaas”
Pure Being is my special form,

“Khalse mein hoon karo niwas”
In Complete purified being :I reside;

“Khalsa Mero Swajan Parivara, Khalsa Mero Karat Udhara”
Pure Being is my family; Pure Being acts kind to me.

“Khalsa Mero Pind Pran, Khalsa Meri Jaan Ki Jaan”
Pure Being is my body and life force, Pure Being is my life of Life force;

“Maan Mehat Meri Khalsa Sahi, Khalsa Mero swarath Sahi”
Due to Pure being, My Importance and Respect; Pure Being is my Selfishness.

“Khalsa Mero Kare Nirbaha, Khalsa Mero Deh Or Saha”
Pure Being is my survival; Pure Being is my mind & Breath.

“Khalsa Mero Dharam Aur Karam, Khalsa Mero Bhed Nij Maram”
Pure Being is my Religion & Work; There is No difference Between Pure Being & me.

“Khalsa Mero Satgur Pura, Khalsa Mero Sajjan Soora”
Pure Being Is Complete Truth Guru; Pure Being is my Brave Beloved.

“Khalsa Mero Budh Aur Gyan, Khalse Ka Ho Dharo Dhyan”
Pure being is my Knowledge & Wisdom, Always meditate on Pure Being.

“Upma Khalse Jaat Naa Kahi, Jihva Ek Per Nahi Lahi"
Praise of Pure Being Can’t be done; even a single praise can’t be done by tongue.

“Rehat Pyari Mujh Ko Sikh Pyara Nahi”
Discipline is Lovely to me Not Disciple;

“Rehni Rahe Soi Sikh Mera, O Thakur Me Uska Chera”
One who is in discipline is my disciple, then He’s my Master and I his disciple

“Rehat Bina Nahi Sikh Akhawe Rehat Bina Dar Chotan Khawe”
Without Discipline None shall call you Disciple, Without Discipline one Keeps on getting hurts;

“Rehat Bina Sukh Kabhoon Naa Lahe, Taan Te Rehat Su Drid Kar Rahe”
Without Discipline cannot be in peace, devoid of discipline Lord makes you poor.

“Khalsa Akal Purakh Ki Fauj”
Pure Being is army of Timeless Lord of all Lords;

“Pargatyo Khals Parmatam Ki Maoj”
Evolved Pure Being made Supreme Lord In Bliss.

“Jab Lag Khalsa Rahe Niara”
When Pure Being remains beloved;

“Tab Lag Tej Dion Me Sara”
Till then I give him all my Power;

“Jab Eh Gahe Bipran Ki Reet”
When it Goes other way round;

“Me Naa Karo En Ki Parteet”
I never shall never do his protection.

“Atam Ras Jeh Janye So Hi Khals Dev”
One who knows Inner ambrosial nectar (“Atam Rus”) is Truly Purified Lord(“Khalsa Dev”) .

“Prabh Meh Moh Meh Taas Meh Ranchak Nahin Bhed”
There is no difference between ME, God & Him (Pure being);

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

What is above quoted is very correct and true. Agreed women were never amongst Punj piyare. Women were never in any war as soldiers when Guru Gobind Singh ji fought many wars with Mughals in which his two elder Sahib zade were shaheed. The younger two Sahib Zade were buried alive in walls in Sirhad.
But my question is why women are not allowed to perform kirtan in Siri Harmandar Sahib. They may not act as panj piyare and do palki sewa. But certainly they can perform kirtan in Darbar Sahib provided they are baptized and tie a turban. Will you kndly enlighten me on this point.

"WAH WAH GOBIND SINGH APE GURU, APE GURUCHELLA"

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

They have been in panj for quite awhile now and done of us women DO fight alongside men. Myself one of them. My whole career has been in the military.

The excuses used to keep women in a position beneath men are appalling.

Should women stop taking Amrit too Abneet? Because in your thinking women must rely on men for spiritual advancement (if Amrit is seen as a necessary step) and to avoid 'requiring' men for my spiritual advancement if have to avoid Amrit?

Luckily I am taking Amrit somewhere that uses SRM

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

Dear Akash , i am very happy that you are taking Amrit. Women have full right to take Amrit.
In Asadiwar Guru ji says " SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAMEN RAJAN" ( why say bad to her who gives birth to rajas and gurus.) . This is only monopoly and high handedness of DAM DAMI TAKSAL AND AKAL TAKHAT CHOWDHARIS WHO HAVE PUT THIS BAN THAT WOMEN CAN NOT DO KIRTAN IN SIRI HARIMANDIR SAHIB. Yes i may agree that women can not form Panj Piyre, because Guru Gobind Singh ji only got five male sikhs who offered their heads at that time in Anad Pur Sahib.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Fellow spners there is no question that it is discrimination considering values in today's day and age. I am sure there will come a time in the future where it will come to pass.

Perhaps it is also wise to look into some historic aspects of who were the prime class of people that learned to do kirtan anywhere? These in general were dis-enfranchised Sikhs either from then what was considered low castes or at times handicapped in some aspect. The purpose of helping them earn a living in this profession was that they could raise families where men were the dominant earners in family settings and the women did the all important part of raising and caring for the children and keep the household functioning. The history therefore was not that some females wanted to do equality kirtan during these times. Have the times changed for such source or other aspects of this arrangement? I don't live in India right now so I don't know. May be others can provide better reflections on present times if they have first hand knowledge.

I of course fully support equality but I do believe that we need to keep note of some of the root aspects in such situations before passing too many philosophical judgments. I still have a hunch that it is still sourced out of classes that continue to be dis-enfranchised in India in-spite of all the constitution, slogans and programs to rid the society of the caste system.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Dear Akash , i am very happy that you are taking Amrit. Women have full right to take Amrit.
In Asadiwar Guru ji says " SO KIUN MANDA AKHEYE JIS JAMEN RAJAN" ( why say bad to her who gives birth to rajas and gurus.) . This is only monopoly and high handedness of DAM DAMI TAKSAL AND AKAL TAKHAT CHOWDHARIS WHO HAVE PUT THIS BAN THAT WOMEN CAN NOT DO KIRTAN IN SIRI HARIMANDIR SAHIB. Yes i may agree that women can not form Panj Piyre, because Guru Gobind Singh ji only got five male sikhs who offered their heads at that time in Anad Pur Sahib.

I have to disagree with you and if I was told my spiritual progression entirely depended on men (if only men could be panj pyare) I would actually avoid ever taking Amrit as a matter of making a point. Women do not need to rely on men... It sends a very bad message.

The original five their gender did not matter at all. A .insert male organ here. Is not needed for a very spiritual event. They are not stirring the Amrit with their you know what's.

To place any restrictions on one gender and not the other goes against Sikh teachings of equality period. Including panj pyare.

And SRM states women and man can both do it. That should be end of story...,panthic decisions outweigh any jatha or individual. Even guru Gobind Singh Ji diverted decisions to the panth, and he gave FULL authority to the panj payres. So if they go by SRM allowing women to be panj then they exercised full rights given by Guru Ji!

 

[Abneet]

I have to disagree with you and if I was told my spiritual progression entirely depended on men (if only men could be panj pyare) I would actually avoid ever taking Amrit as a matter of making a point. Women do not need to rely on men... It sends a very bad message.

The original five their gender did not matter at all. A .insert male organ here. Is not needed for a very spiritual event. They are not stirring the Amrit with their you know what's.

To place any restrictions on one gender and not the other goes against Sikh teachings of equality period. Including panj pyare.

And SRM states women and man can both do it. That should be end of story...,panthic decisions outweigh any jatha or individual. Even guru Gobind Singh Ji diverted decisions to the panth, and he gave FULL authority to the panj payres. So if they go by SRM allowing women to be panj then they exercised full rights given by Guru Ji!

I'm am still waiting for evidence of women being part of punj pyare in the 1700 and 1800 century. You have to understand the original punj pyare as we are to resemble them when we do amrit sanchar with 5 men. Please if you think taking amrit by men only will effect your own path in Sikhi then don't take it simple as that.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

I'm am still waiting for evidence of women being part of punj pyare in the 1700 and 1800 century.

Sat sri akaal Abneet ,

SRM clearly allows Women to be Panj Pyara , there s no issue regarding that .

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I'm am still waiting for evidence of women being part of punj pyare in the 1700 and 1800 century. You have to understand the original punj pyare as we are to resemble them when we do amrit sanchar with 5 men. Please if you think taking amrit by men only will effect your own path in Sikhi then don't take it simple as that.

You misunderstand. I don't care if five men, five women, a mixture or a purple elephant give me Amrit... I said if it were indeed true that only men were allowed to be panj payres then it makes the statement that women must rely in men for spiritual progression as every Sikh is told to strive for taking Amrit. It sends the message that men are somehow closer to [God] than women or that women are lacking spiritually. If that were the case (which it isn't because the panth has spoken and SRM states gender of panj payre does not matter) but if it did then I would refuse to ever take Amrit just to make a point.

Who cares if there were or weren't females between 1700-1800. Sikhi is not about tradition. Guru Gobind Singh Ji never restricted women from it. I'm sure it would have been in his 52 humans if gender was that important to him.... He wrote those in 1708, 9 whole years later. But he was completely silent.

When will people start to get away from this social hierarchy created based on gender? SGGS speaks against any form of social or class status.... That includes gender.

 

[Harry Haller]

You misunderstand. I don't care if five men, five women, a mixture or a purple elephant give me Amrit... I said if it were indeed true that only men were allowed to be panj payres then it makes the statement that women must rely in men for spiritual progression as every Sikh is told to strive for taking Amrit. It sends the message that men are somehow closer to [God] than women or that women are lacking spiritually. If that were the case (which it isn't because the panth has spoken and SRM states gender of panj payre does not matter) but if it did then I would refuse to ever take Amrit just to make a point.

Who cares if there were or weren't females between 1700-1800. Sikhi is not about tradition. Guru Gobind Singh Ji never restricted women from it. I'm sure it would have been in his 52 humans if gender was that important to him.... He wrote those in 1708, 9 whole years later. But he was completely silent.

When will people start to get away from this social hierarchy created based on gender? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji speaks against any form of social or class status.... That includes gender.

I would like to pick some holes in the above post, there are some facts that have been portrayed as true, when in fact they clearly are not.

A purple elephant has no hands, so therefore cannot give amrit, the only way it could do it, (btw is it a male or a female purple elephant?), would be with its trunk, and if it got the pressure or the timing wrong, it could spell disaster.

Also where would it be fitted for clothes? The only place I know that makes clothes in that size would be a place my ex wife used to go to, although, at least an elephant clearly has a smaller bottom.

I myself would have no problem taking amrit from a purple elephant, I certainly would not feel having taken amrit from it, I was then reliant on the elephant for spiritual progression for the rest of my life, the only person that we are ever reliant for such is ourselves, surely.

 

[Abneet]

You misunderstand. I don't care if five men, five women, a mixture or a purple elephant give me Amrit... I said if it were indeed true that only men were allowed to be panj payres then it makes the statement that women must rely in men for spiritual progression as every Sikh is told to strive for taking Amrit. It sends the message that men are somehow closer to [God] than women or that women are lacking spiritually. If that were the case (which it isn't because the panth has spoken and SRM states gender of panj payre does not matter) but if it did then I would refuse to ever take Amrit just to make a point.

Who cares if there were or weren't females between 1700-1800. Sikhi is not about tradition. Guru Gobind Singh Ji never restricted women from it. I'm sure it would have been in his 52 humans if gender was that important to him.... He wrote those in 1708, 9 whole years later. But he was completely silent.

When will people start to get away from this social hierarchy created based on gender? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji speaks against any form of social or class status.... That includes gender.

Who cares if there no females between 1800 and 1800? Don't you think Guru Gobind Singh Ji made parchariks and spread them throughout India to spread Sikhi and chuk amrit? So don't you think it was all Men ever since 1699. Sikhi is about tradition to be honest. If this is the only case you find of gender equality I don't see it being such a big issue to not want to take amrit. From whoever you take amrit from is amrit no difference from men and women in punj pyare as SRM states but I am saying punj pyare should be men only. Punj pyare are in the Guru's form themselves. Not such a big issue to fuss about.

 

[kggr001]

but I am saying punj pyare should be men only. Punj pyare are in the Guru's form themselves. Not such a big issue to fuss about.

You should realize that even a bad person can become one of the Punj Pyare's, would that person also be in your eyes the Guru's form themself? You should stop looking at the outer the inner is much more important.