Can We Ever See Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji?

[arshdeep88]

Noanotherlogin Ji

I see we agree and disagree on many things .And i think we are only left with the things we disagree about to discuss ,so allow me to state them.

Yes i agree that our mind thinks and it do evolves with time.In your example as you stated both the child and the analyst could be right accordingly in their own eyes.We can't term one as immature and the other matured.What might be mature for one could be immaturity for the other,they both might disagree on each others lifestyle and might go onto the extent of coming to blows with each other proving themselves Right. lol

There the Importance of the Guru Lies for me and for me the Guru is Guru granth sahib ji which distinguishes the matured from the immature,good from the bad and evil from virtuous.Guru Granth Sahib Ji allows me to contemplate and shows my hypocrisy in many ways.I see in your examples you comparing Guru Granth Sahib Ji Just as a book and here we think unalike.Even in the classroom example and the Biology example you have compared it with just as a Refreshing Book and nothing much where i differ from you completely.
For me the teacher in the examples is the Guru Granth Sahib here and its not just a Simple refreshing Book.
The Shabad Is the Guru, the teacher ,period.

If i go through the Sidh Gosht Ang 943 i can see clearly Nanak Ji Telling me that the Shabad is the Guru, the teacher.

ਸਬਦ੝ ਗ੝ਰੂ ਸ੝ਰਤਿ ਧ੝ਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
Sabaḝ gurū suraṯ ḝẖun cẖelĝ.
The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple.
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sidh_Gosht_%28Page_2%29

I do not have to either meet Guru Nanak Ji personally in his physical form or wait for him to incarnate back to tell me this when he has given me the message plain and clear in the Guru Granth Sahib Only.It is not tough to understand,the message is clear, even if my mind misleads me this than i am myself to be blamed.Even the dumbest of all the students like me can understand this, i can't reject it,i can't be blinded to this fact.The Student have to accept it,if he/she can't then how can the person proceed ahead?and if the person disagrees to it then he/she cant be a student irrespective of being the best or the worst.
Here we all are students in classroom of our only teacher Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Some might be the shiniest student some might be worst but we are not harsh on each other Ji,we disagree with each other but we agree with our teacher Guru granth Sahib Ji and we all agree to this fact.

Saying all this i still do not think you have stated much about the qualities of the student needed or discussed about.However,I wish you good luck for whatever Journey you choose ahead.

 

[Ishna]

Arshdeep Ji (and all others)

While Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's status as Guru in Sikhi is acknowledged, respected and essential, I wonder if the focus on it as THE GURU can be a bit misleading.

Please indulge the following prickly scenario/questions:

For me the teacher in the examples is the Guru Granth Sahib here and its not just a Simple refreshing Book.
The Shabad Is the Guru, the teacher ,period.

If i go through the Sidh Gosht Ang 943 i can see clearly Nanak Ji Telling me that the Shabad is the Guru, the teacher.

A. Guru Nanak had no Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji bir... so here, 'Shabad' isn't referring to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The full paurhi makes it clearer:

ਪਵਨ ਅਰੰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਲਾ ॥
Pavan arambẖ saṯgur maṯ velā.
From the air came the beginning. This is the age of the True Guru's Teachings.

ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
Sabaḏ gurū suraṯ ḏẖun cẖelā.
The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple.

ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਲੇ ਰਹਉ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ॥
Akath kathā le raha▫o nirālā.
Speaking the Unspoken Speech, I remain unattached.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ॥
Nānak jug jug gur gopālā.
O Nanak, throughout the ages, the Lord of the World is my Guru.

ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਥਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥
Ėk sabaḏ jiṯ kathā vīcẖārī.
I contemplate the sermon of the Shabad, the Word of the One God.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਅਗਨਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੀ ॥੪੪॥
Gurmukẖ ha▫umai agan nivārī. ||44||
The Gurmukh puts out the fire of egotism. ||44|

B. This is where I always get confused with Gurbani's circular references. Shabad is the Guru. "God" is the Guru. Therefore Shabad = "God", not Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The Guru as in Guru Nanak Ji-Guru Granth Ji....is the path shower..the teacher..towards the GURU....thats beyond time, place, life, death etc etc as stated in Mool Mantar !!

Thats why SIKHS get confused...everyone gets confused...the Panktee is .."Japio jin Arjun Dev Guru...the centre of concentration here is the GURU that Arjun Dev Japped..NOT GURU ARJUN JI...because Guru Arjun ji is not with us..That GURU He Japped is and forever...will be with us..

SABH TE WADDA SATGUR......(comma)..NANAK..Jin kal rakhee meree....here Nanak the Guru is telling us who is GREATER....its the SHABAD GURU...but most SIKHS gloss over the invisible COMMA and make it sound like Sabh te wadda Satgur Nanak !!jin kal rakhee meree.... which Guru nanak ji is NOT !!! Sabh te Waddah is THE CREATOR.

An ordinary English Phrase which simplifies the imporatnce of commas pauses and grammar..

1. Woman, without her, Man is nothing.
2. Woman without her Man, is nothing.

 

[Harry Haller]

An ordinary English Phrase which simplifies the imporatnce of commas pauses and grammar..

1. Woman, without her, Man is nothing.

2. Woman without her Man, is nothing.

what about 3 women?

 

[japjisahib04]

Gurbani even tells us, ' ਪੋਥੀ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕਾ ਥਾਨੁ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥This Holy Book is the extension or proxy of the Transcendent Akal Purakh but not God. it is not the physical pages that we marvel at, nor the binding, or even the writing itself. What makes Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji special is the message it contains.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

what about 3 women?

harry Ji..that would be

3. Woman without herman, is nothing !!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

A torch light shows us the path in the darkness...so we dont fall into a disused well...
Sikhs have taken to SWITCHING OFF the "Torch" ( to save its batteries ??) and keep it safely inside a drawer at home...and go stumbling in the Darkness..falling into disused wells along the way..
Same way Sikhs, keep the SGGS smothered in thick blankets, safely tucked away in air conditioned sukhsasan rooms or installed on Golden palkis, and stumble about at various mazaars and graves....Shiv Mandirs..or kailash parbat hemkunt tours hanuman Mandirs for Banana parshaad etc etc....or fall into the DERA WELLS of Pakhandees who are DRY WELLS but the sikhs fall into them to get drink of cool water !!!

Once a BLIND MAN approached a wise man and told him that people are always KNOCKING into HIM.....so the wise man gave the Blind Man a LIGHTED LANTERN to carry...Now people can see you are approaching and will step aside....After a few days, the Blind Man was KNOCKED INTO....and his lighted lantern went flying...OYE..you fool he shouted..didnt you SEE my Lighted Lantern ?? Why did you knock into me ?? Oyeh replied the other man...WHY didnt YOU see my Lighted Lantern and avoid knocking into me....You see..TWO BLIND MEN carrying lighted lanters are no guarantee they wont knock into each other...NO amount of SGGS parkashed everywhere will prevent Blind Sikhs from ever seeing the GYAAN Parkashed !!!

 

[arshdeep88]

Ishna Ji

IMHO what is Shabad for me?
Shabad=Word of the 'GOD' ,as i understand from the ANG 943, the 'GOD' experienced by Guru Nanak Ji.
So i see we both agreeing that yes Shabad=Guru=Word of the God=GOD( as per Nanak Ji's Philisophy).:thumbsupp:
When Guru nanak ji is saying that Shabad is the Guru for him, he is expressing that the word of the GOD is the GURU.
Guru Granth sahib ji is the word of the GOD.
What i meant by Guru Granth Sahib Ji was not the just physical book(i suppose i should have cleared that in my previous comment) but the Gurubani,the message contained in it.If you consider it to be the word of the GOD it can neither be misleading or confusing.eacesign:

 

[notanotherloginplease]

Ishna Ji

IMHO what is Shabad for me?
Shabad=Word of the 'GOD' ,as i understand from the ANG 943, the 'GOD' experienced by Guru Nanak Ji.
So i see we both agreeing that yes Shabad=Guru=Word of the God=GOD( as per Nanak Ji's Philisophy).:thumbsupp:
When Guru nanak ji is saying that Shabad is the Guru for him, he is expressing that the word of the GOD is the GURU.
Guru Granth sahib ji is the word of the GOD.
What i meant by Guru Granth Sahib Ji was not the just physical book(i suppose i should have cleared that in my previous comment) but the Gurubani,the message contained in it.If you consider it to be the word of the GOD it can neither be misleading or confusing.eacesign:

Shabad=Word of the 'GOD'

Arshdeep ji, I don't agree with this.. The shabad which is refrered in guru Granth Sahib actually is not Word of God. It is actually God.

I hope you wont mind quoting me this from bible as all books talk about same god,same power and same shabad/word.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. "
Given below is search link for word 'shabad' which has very confusing English translation at many places. But reading few of those lines will make it more clear.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Search&Param=english

 

[Ishna]

Yes, thank you Arshdeep Ji for providing your thoughts.

NALP Ji, I don't know enough about Logos (The Word, in the Christian sense) to draw a parallel between it and the Sikh concept of Shabad. Beloved spnadmin ji was always careful around the idea of Logos when it came up so I am cautious. I'll see if I can find any posts of hers where she may have elaborated for us. *hugs her memory*

This is a good topic for a thread by itself. I'll check first as to not reinvent the wheel.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

A torch light shows us the path in the darkness...so we dont fall into a disused well...
Sikhs have taken to SWITCHING OFF the "Torch" ( to save its batteries ??) and keep it safely inside a drawer at home...and go stumbling in the Darkness..falling into disused wells along the way..
Same way Sikhs, keep the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji smothered in thick blankets, safely tucked away in air conditioned sukhsasan rooms or installed on Golden palkis, and stumble about at various mazaars and graves....Shiv Mandirs..or kailash parbat hemkunt tours hanuman Mandirs for Banana parshaad etc etc....or fall into the DERA WELLS of Pakhandees who are DRY WELLS but the sikhs fall into them to get drink of cool water !!!

Once a BLIND MAN approached a wise man and told him that people are always KNOCKING into HIM.....so the wise man gave the Blind Man a LIGHTED LANTERN to carry...Now people can see you are approaching and will step aside....After a few days, the Blind Man was KNOCKED INTO....and his lighted lantern went flying...OYE..you fool he shouted..didnt you SEE my Lighted Lantern ?? Why did you knock into me ?? Oyeh replied the other man...WHY didnt YOU see my Lighted Lantern and avoid knocking into me....You see..TWO BLIND MEN carrying lighted lanters are no guarantee they wont knock into each other...NO amount of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji parkashed everywhere will prevent Blind Sikhs from ever seeing the GYAAN Parkashed !!!

And today I found the attached PHOTO of 2 real life BLAND MEN with Lanterns....to illustrate my tale...ha ha made my day..hope it makes your day too..

 

[Ishna]

NALP Ji,

This article posted by Gyani JI is interesting with regard to Shabad Guru:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/29886-sabd-guru-an-introduction.html

It indeed links 'Shabad' to 'Logos'. I'm not 100% convinced, yet. But it's good reading!

 

[notanotherloginplease]

NALP Ji,

This article posted by Gyani JI is interesting with regard to Shabad Guru:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/29886-sabd-guru-an-introduction.html

It indeed links 'Shabad' to 'Logos'. I'm not 100% convinced, yet. But it's good reading!

Thanks Ishna ji,
It was a nice article. Well call it shabad, word, logos, kalma, tao etc. it doesnt really matter as long as they are all referring to same power. like my mum, biji,sisters and other elders call me with diffrent names but they all are calling same me.
Concluding: Shabad is not a book and not a human being but it is power which prevails through a human being or a book. Neither we should worship a book, nor a human being, but we should worship that true shabad and I must say If we realize it through a book, we should respect the book and if a human being helps us to realize it then we should respect that human.

but shabad is in us and everyone so we should respect everyone.That makes more sense.Its more like a one to one relationship between our soul and shabad.( No doubt they are same but until it is realized)

Do we need any outside intervention to attune ourselves to this shabad?

 

[Harry Haller]

Do we need any outside intervention to attune ourselves to this shabad?

yes, a bit fat bloke in an Audi comes to mind, or maybe some interesting rituals, with fire and stuff!!

in my view, and it is only my view, no we do not, we just need to be aware of the truth and follow it

 

[notanotherloginplease]

yes, a bit fat bloke in an Audi comes to mind, or maybe some interesting rituals, with fire and stuff!!

in my view, and it is only my view, no we do not, we just need to be aware of the truth and follow it

Can you please explain Truth?

and how we can follow it?

------------------------------------
I think we were talking about Shabad and not truth or fat bloke or audi or fire or whatever. We should remain on topic. Sarcasm is good but some questions really need serious answers. It might sound rude but its truth

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

HE IS TRUTH...His Name is SATNAAM...TRUTH.
HE is Always TRUTH...and ever will be...

So what we do ??
Discard ASATT - OPPOSITE of TRUTH...and adapt according to TRUTH...TRUTHFUL LIVING...full of TRUTH...

DEATH is TRUTH.....LIFE is ASATT..temporary...so we have to DISCARD "life" because no matter what we do..DEATH the Final TRUTH will prevail at any cost...

DISCARD..all the Falsehoods, corruption, lies, fake actions, cheatings, etc etc etc that we DO DAILY..to continue LIFE..when the Ultimate REALITY is DEATH...

A person who can achieve JEEWAN MUKT..."dead" while ALIVE...One who is "DEAD" to the WORLD while achieving the highest attributes of THE CREATOR..Merciful..compassionate..GIVER...etc etc etc...is actually really ALIVE..the other one is living but MORALLY DEAD...

The GURU has written 1429 Pages...I obviously cannot go so far...so TRUTH is of the Essence and this essence begins in..EK Oangkaar..accept the ONE as a Start..then SATNAAM..stop lying..stop subterfuges..stop fake behaviour like fake smiles..fake happiness..stop falsehoods..stop stop stop...!!! Karta Purakh...Nirbhau...Nirvair..etc etc etc..EACH WORD is a LIFE TIME WORK !!! Forget about the 1429 Pages !!!!

But there are MILLIONS of SIKHS who have READ all the 1429 pages ...some many many times..many many repetitions...BUT still have not progressed beyond EK....what to say ??? Just as ONE tiny drop of concentrated Perfume oil..can spread its fragrance in a multi storey building..the Fragrance of EK.....is beyond comparison...BUT many shatter the entire "bottle" by the CRATE...and cant smell anything because their NOSES are "DEAD"...??? Kabeer says the Mann is like a Bird..and Birds of a feather fly together.....FIND a BIRD that will FLY with you...

 

[Harry Haller]

Can you please explain Truth?

and how we can follow it?

------------------------------------
I think we were talking about Shabad and not truth or fat bloke or audi or fire or whatever. We should remain on topic. Sarcasm is good but some questions really need serious answers. It might sound rude but its truth

I am not a scholar, in fact, when I look around at my fellow Sikhs, sometimes I wonder whether I am even a Sikh, all I know is what has been beaten into me by life, and after 45 years, I have to concede that the truth always wins, and that living by the truth is not easy, discretion, logic, wisdom and understanding are needed but are also honed in the search,

if you fall of a tall building gravity ensures you hit the ground, that is a truth, an absolute truth, work backwards from that and you will find the truth, accept that falling brings problems, and you end up avoiding the tops of tall buildings, and that is how you follow it, using your brain, playing the game knowing the rules, and knowing the forfeits. Once you see life for what it really is, none of it actually matters, none of what happens actually matters, all that matters is that you align yourself with what is right and true, and that is all you have.

Sarcasm is good, it cuts through the rubbish, it mocks, it pierces wind filled balloons, it bursts bubbles.

Because what we really need are more words that we can play about with to waste our time, what is a soul, what is a shabad, what is spirit, the tenth eye, the fourth nose, whatever, to me they are all simply the truth.

 

[chazSingh]

Can you please explain Truth?

and how we can follow it?

for me, coming to 'know of' through first hand experience, of the Nirgun.

I am already very experienced through first hand knowledge of the Sargun...but this is not the complete truth...

i have led myself to believe in only the Sargun and look for all my answers in the Sargun...time to add some balance and delve into the Nirgun

My life in the Sargun will come to an end at some point...time to seek support and shelter in the Nirgun, that something that has been and always will be.

God bless ji

 

[notanotherloginplease]

Thanks for your replies.

So retracing : Harry Haller Ji replied to my original question("Do we need any outside intervention to attune ourselves to this shabad?): "no we do not, we just need to be aware of the truth and follow it"

Now question becomes 'what is truth? how to follow?'

As per you answers :I got what truth is: everybody have their own perception of truth.

and answer concluded from mainly Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji's poetic post: HE IS TRUTH...His Name is SAT NAAM.

I.e God is truth and his name(Naam) is truth. Please confirm Gyani ji.(I assume Naam/Shabd are both referring to same power)

because now we are aware of truth, half work is done in attuning ourselves to Shabad but other question still standing

Q: How to follow truth?

Please give your input - if possible a short straight answer first followed by any explanations. This helps to avoid confusion, Thanks. Apologies if I am asking for too much.:interestedsingh:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Yes Ji..Naam and Shabad are the same power..the Creator.

How to follow Truth..my take is PRACTISE TRUTH daily..as Guru ji declares..GURBANI BANNEYEAH..."BECOME GURBANI...become Shabad..Become NAAM !!"
Kiv SACHIARA HOYEAH...kiv kuurreh tutteh paal..is the Question youa re askinga nd Guru nanak ji has already answered it..HUKM RAZAII CHALLNNA...follow HIS HUKM..His PATH..HIS LAWS..His WAY...

WE KNOW what the HUKM is..BUT we dont follow it..becasue we ahve EGO, manmatt, mann, mind standing as WALL stopping us..BREAK DOWN the BERLIN WALL..and be FREE !! rather thanh having chains around the enck..berriahn around the feet..a prisoner of ourSELF...