Can We Ever See Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji?

[Ishna]

Related thread Shabad, Naam, Amrit, Hukam, Guru - Are They Synonyms? http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/42026-shabad-naam-amrit-hukam-guru-they.html

 

[chazSingh]

Q: How to follow truth?

Please give your input - if possible a short straight answer first followed by any explanations. This helps to avoid confusion, Thanks. Apologies if I am asking for too much.:interestedsingh:

The Nirgun (formless) - the TRUTH that has been, is present now, and will always forever be can be experienced within your very being...deep within you is that shining light that is waiting to show you first hand the TRUTH of Waheguru that Gurbani talks of...

Now its up to us to listen out for his shabad and let it guide us to this Truth within...

just my humble opinion on my contemplation of Gurbani

 

[Harry Haller]

Q: How to follow truth?

This question is along the same lines as 'how to learn' or 'how to study', its hard work, frankly, it is such hard work, sometimes even I feel the need to go and do something else a bit easier, maybe light a few lamps, or stare at a picture, grab a load of beads and have a bit of a meditation session, the mumbling I like too, because that is quite easy!

I could grow my hair, wear a turban, start going to Gurdwara, maybe go on a pilgrimage, say to Hemkunt, and spend my days doing all this stuff, but quite frankly, in my view, there is only way to live like a Sikh, and it is bloody hard, but the rewards are too great to ignore.

I must go now, I have to check the poorenmashi dates on my calender

A better question would be

'how to live each and every minute as the Creator would, given the facets of Creator we already know from Mool Mantra'

so thats the easy bit, the hard bit is actually doing it, or trying to do it, or giving it your best and trying to improve it, again, frankly, until one has mastered this, I see little point in digging for further jewels in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, however, what I do know from experience is that living like this enables consonance with surroundings, which in turn leads to better perception of the environment around you.

 

[notanotherloginplease]

This question is along the same lines as 'how to learn' or 'how to study', its hard work, frankly, it is such hard work, sometimes even I feel the need to go and do something else a bit easier, maybe light a few lamps, or stare at a picture, grab a load of beads and have a bit of a meditation session, the mumbling I like too, because that is quite easy!

I could grow my hair, wear a turban, start going to Gurdwara, maybe go on a pilgrimage, say to Hemkunt, and spend my days doing all this stuff, but quite frankly, in my view, there is only way to live like a Sikh, and it is bloody hard, but the rewards are too great to ignore.

I must go now, I have to check the poorenmashi dates on my calender

A better question would be

'how to live each and every minute as the Creator would, given the facets of Creator we already know from Mool Mantra'

so thats the easy bit, the hard bit is actually doing it, or trying to do it, or giving it your best and trying to improve it, again, frankly, until one has mastered this, I see little point in digging for further jewels in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, however, what I do know from experience is that living like this enables consonance with surroundings, which in turn leads to better perception of the environment around you.

Thank you all for your posts. Gyani Ji's post was nice.
Thanks Harry Ji. You have told many other ways that we are using to follow truth and are not right ones" I could grow my hair, wear a turban, start going to Gurdwara, maybe go on a pilgrimage, say to Hemkunt, and spend my days doing all this stuff, but quite frankly, in my view, there is only way to live like a Sikh, and it is bloody hard, but the rewards are too great to ignore.

I must go now, I have to check the poorenmashi dates on my calender"

Agreed that these are just karam kands, and lead us nowhere.

I don't agree that we could replace the question about following truth with way of living. rephrasing will lose the actual purpose of question. (how to live each and every minute as the Creator would, given the facets of Creator we already know from Mool Mantra)



Please explain the one's in blue below. Thanks heaps.

so thats the easy bit, the hard bit is actually doing it, or trying to do it, or giving it your best and trying to improve it, again, frankly, until one has mastered this, I see little point in digging for further jewels in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, however, what I do know from experience is that living like this enables consonance with surroundings, which in turn leads to better perception of the environment around you.

So does your "this" and above in blue refer to "Way of living"-
I think that will just cover this part: Kirat Karo,Wand chako-- But what about Naam Japo? wasnt that important?

As we have discussed earlier: NAAM=Shabad =truth . and the question is how to follow truth, how to practice naam, how to follow shabad? does that make sense? confusing sorry!

 

[Harry Haller]

I don't agree that we could replace the question about following truth with way of living. rephrasing will lose the actual purpose of question. (how to live each and every minute as the Creator would, given the facets of Creator we already know from Mool Mantra)

Why else would you follow the truth if not to integrate it into your living model? I mean what sort of person follows the truth sitting halfway up a tree? How can you live truthfully if you are not doing anything?

so thats the easy bit, the hard bit is actually doing it, or trying to do it, or giving it your best and trying to improve it, again, frankly, until one has mastered this, I see little point in digging for further jewels in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, however, what I do know from experience is that living like this enables consonance with surroundings, which in turn leads to better perception of the environment around you.

So does your "this" and above in blue refer to "Way of living"-
I think that will just cover this part: Kirat Karo,Wand chako-- But what about Naam Japo? wasnt that important?

let us set some base points, because we all interpret this great way of life differently, I am one of those that believe in nothing after death, not blackness, I just don't know what happens and am happy with that. So, in the worst scenario, all I have now is the time on this earth, now I can either go find a tree, an eighth of weed, and spend my time engaging in self debate about the meaning of life, I can deny myself of all pleasures and really get to town on the whole meaning of life thing, or, I can accept that the meaning of life is quite simple, to take on as many facets of Creator that I can, and be in complete consonance with my surroundings. I can help people, advise people, I can be a representative of Creator on Earth, making a difference is what makes Sikhism so different, there are no boogies, no carrots, we have been given the role of deputies, and our job is give assistance and help, not for gain, but simply because such a lifestyle is true living.

As we have discussed earlier: NAAM=Shabad =truth . and the question is how to follow truth, how to practice naam, how to follow shabad? does that make sense? confusing sorry!

yes, it is confusing, which is why I limit myself to just the one word, truth, it encapsulates pretty much everything I need to know as a Sikh, everything written in the SGGS is true, read it, follow it, live it, your a Sikh, it all seems very simple to me.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Harry ji..you continue to amaze me...yeah you heard right...AMAZE ME...I hope I get to meet you one day...(sadly I missed the chance to have met Narayanjyot kaur Ji..the other person that used to Amaze me as well...) GURPARSAAD ALWAYS.

 

[angrisha]

Sorry again, another question just struck: Then Is it OK to see Guru Granth Sahib ji as living Guru?(Considering it a book of teachings)

- i will post it as a new forum question .looking forward for your reply.Thanks

Personally for me, I do see the SGGS as a 'living guru', words weather heard or read have the same meanings. Its really how you choose to live your life, teachings in a book as you have said is no different than a physical person saying those things out loud. You could listen to someone tell you or read it written down either way how you comprehend it and what it means to you is your own interpretation. How you choose to follow is on you.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Folks great thread and great discourse. Thank you. If I may make some observations.

SGGS and our Guru ji are not asking us to learn rocket science for living as a good Sikh. Again and again Guru ji debunk or guide us to see beyond basic misconceptions of the people of the day. If today you were to hold all those misconceptions as beliefs, in spite wearing Kara, Kirpan and doing or reciting SGGS is of little to no value. This is the extreme and I don't believe one can find such a person. The other extreme is that you are not afflicted by any of the misconceptions and beliefs that Guru ji guide us to be aware of and live by ridding ourselves of all of these. It is perhaps going to be difficult to find such a person also other than the Guru ji themselves. So most of us are in between. One litmus test of one's progress in getting the message of SGGS is to read and test one's understanding in real life. If you are at peace living in this understanding inside and outside, consider yourself very blessed. This perhaps is what one should aim for. SGGS will never be experienced by any two people alike as SGGS does not believe in single identity of all but in single entity of all. One source to come from, one source to go back to, all this guided through one set of truths. This happens whether you believe or understand the message of SGGS. If you do believe, and better understand SGGS, then you will live at a whole new plateau where birth, death, time, and many other dimensions will become of no essence. You will see yourself as part of a continuous transformation that is guided by truths that we may never know all of and at best understand some of.

Take a small bite and live so. Take another bite and live so more. Liberation, enlightenment will happen without the active need to be seeking it. At a spiritual level, you will experience a state that you could sink into at will and as long as you wish. Get out of it at will and so on but always have the open ticket to submerge back.

This will be experienced by most. However if you surpass and stay permanently in the submerged blissful state, you will reach the state of Guru ji's.

Good luck, discover, understand, submerge, come out, take another dip for longer and as you wish, enjoy the contrast of how it could be and how it is for shorter or longer periods of time. I have experienced such duality many a times and cherish such moments. This is the experience of Sikhism for me while I may hardly be understanding of SGGS as much as most of you and practising even less than most of you.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Original]

Hey yearning soul, listen to the voice within and do what pleases thee, for the God of Nanak, satnam, will find you, regardless of form or substance.

Better still, watch LIFE OF PI for realisation of a form guru.

House of Nanak teaches the culmination of form to formlessness. Moreover, Nanak says, its not the sikh that finds the perfect guru but the perfect guru that finds the perfect sikh. Go-on and exhaust your search for a form master for the real Guru is the "word" [shabd guru surat dhun chela].

There is in nature, eliteness, hierarchy and much more, but to understand purity [Khalsa] one must recognise impurity by reason or existence. So go ahead, quench your thirst and make your destiny.

To reach the house of Nanak and be a Sikh is not of choice and chance but a reward of good deeds. That is not to say, other religions and faiths are any less attractive and less meaningful; alas no ! But by the grace of God - is the house of Nanak found.

Consider yourself fortunate if you'd be given a "word" let alone many - from the vast ocean of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Says Nanak, "....Nanak nam ja'haj ha jo chara so uttra par" [those on board Nanak's ship will cross the sea of life]

Goodnight -

 

[Harry Haller]

To reach the house of Nanak and be a Sikh is not of choice and chance but a reward of good deeds.

you mean like a carrot?

 

[Original]

Hey yearning soul, listen to the voice within and do what pleases thee, for the God of Nanak, satnam, will find you, regardless of form or substance.

Better still, watch LIFE OF PI for realisation of a form guru.

House of Nanak teaches the culmination of form to formlessness. Moreover, Nanak says, its not the sikh that finds the perfect guru but the perfect guru that finds the perfect sikh. Go-on and exhaust your search for a form master for the real Guru is the "word" [shabd guru surat dhun chela].

There is in nature, eliteness, hierarchy and much more, but to understand purity [Khalsa] one must recognise impurity by reason or existence. So go ahead, quench your thirst and make your destiny.

To reach the house of Nanak and be a Sikh is not of choice and chance but a reward of good deeds. That is not to say, other religions and faiths are any less attractive and less meaningful; alas no ! But by the grace of God - is the house of Nanak found.

Consider yourself fortunate if you'd be given a "word" let alone many - from the vast ocean of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Says Nanak, "....Nanak nam ja'haj ha jo chara so uttra par" [those on board Nanak's ship will cross the sea of life]

Goodnight -

you mean like a carrot?

.....the context within which the word Sikh is to be construed is "student", en route transformation from mere human to spiritual being, thus humankinds true nature.

Materialistic incentives don't appeal to the yearning soul, but alone, the calling from Akal Purakh and that too, at the grace of satguru.

Many thanks

 

[chazSingh]

.....the context within which the word Sikh is to be construed is "student", en route transformation from mere human to spiritual being, thus humankinds true nature.

Materialistic incentives don't appeal to the yearning soul, but alone, the calling from Akal Purakh and that too, at the grace of satguru.

Many thanks

Waheguru!!

 

[Harry Haller]

.....the context within which the word Sikh is to be construed is "student", en route transformation from mere human to spiritual being, thus humankinds true nature.

I do not wish to transform myself to a spiritual being, am I doing something wrong? Are you suggesting I am not at my stage of true nature? I am, after all , a Sikh.

Materialistic incentives don't appeal to the yearning soul, but alone, the calling from Akal Purakh and that too, at the grace of satguru.

what about spiritual incentives?

Does an incentive cease to be an incentive if it is spiritual?

 

[Original]

I do not wish to transform myself to a spiritual being, am I doing something wrong? Are you suggesting I am not at my stage of true nature? I am, after all , a Sikh.



what about spiritual incentives?

Does an incentive cease to be an incentive if it is spiritual?

H - sorry for the late response, had back to back meetings !

The presumption is that anyone surfing Sikh Philosophy Network on a regular basis is prima facie, a Sikh. By definition then a Sikh is, collectively and independently a being who believes in SGGSJ. Whatever I say is taken and referenced by the authoritative house of Nanak, that is, SGGSJ. I dare not error the spirit nor the letter, but can as a prudent man misinterpret, in which case I must be corrected.

You said, " I do not wish to transform myself to a spiritual being"

Consider the butterfly; does it want to change from a caterpillar to a butterfly? Probably not, but will without choice change [evolution] because of it's potentiality . Similarly, Nanak's philosophy is to that end, human potential to become spiritual. Insofar choice and preferriantil, Nanak advocates Liberty of body, mind and soul.

"Granted" you don't want to transform, but guess what ? Gonna miss you on that spiritual plane. Conversely, there will always be an excuse to come and visit mortal men. So in way - thank you ! Please don't take it the wrong way ha !

Right n Wrong are moral issues, which don't really come into the equation because of the law of causality - jo kara so bhara full stop. As for you having erred in anyway, never. It's my pleasure to be talking to someone like you.

As I said above H, human nature has the pontential to change and it's never a question of choice, but of circumstance and situation. God has brought us on this here page not incidently but coincidentally. This is a meaningful coincident - state of grace which befalls the few.

Guru Govind replied, thus "...char mu'ya toa kya hua jeevat kai hazar" to Mata Ji Sundri's question about her 4 lal. We are the multiples and in the name and cause for humanitarian principles Sikh like you are born to promote human values of respect and dignity.

H - can we do incentive another time, I've got to do my path n have roti !

Speak soon !

Goodnight n Godbless

 

[Harry Haller]

H - sorry for the late response, had back to back meetings !

thats ok, I have been busy too

The presumption is that anyone surfing Sikh Philosophy Network on a regular basis is prima facie, a Sikh.

I think the presumption is that anyone surfing this forum has at least a passing interest in Sikhism, unless they are a bot.

By definition then a Sikh is, collectively and independently a being who believes in SGGSJ

amongst other things, yes.

Whatever I say is taken and referenced by the authoritative house of Nanak, that is, SGGSJ. I dare not error the spirit nor the letter, but can as a prudent man misinterpret, in which case I must be corrected.

I think that applies to all of us, but not all of us speak so definitively that our own opinions must be fact, negating the need for correction.

You said, " I do not wish to transform myself to a spiritual being"

I did

Consider the butterfly; does it want to change from a caterpillar to a butterfly?

ok this is all getting a bit Monty Python, I am tempted to shout out that you are 'making this up as you go along' but if you have not seen the film, that probably will not make much sense. Ok, the answer you are looking for is 'No', however, your question is slightly flawed, a butterfly would not have much opinion on changing from a caterpillar to a butterfly, as it is already a butterfly, does a caterpillar want to change from a caterpillar to a butterfly is probably what you meant, but having said all that, I would like to think a persons desire to live life according to SGGS, and the metamorphosis of a caterpillar are slightly different.

Probably not

How many caterpillars did you survey for this?

but will without choice change [evolution] because of it's potentiality

Ahhh I see, so I will become spiritual without any choice or desire on my part?

Similarly, Nanak's philosophy is to that end, human potential to become spiritual. Insofar choice and preferriantil, Nanak advocates Liberty of body, mind and soul.

you see, the key word is potential....and another key word is choice, crevice is not a key word, but I thought I would mention it anyway.

"Granted" you don't want to transform

I don't

but guess what ?

uhmmmm Noddy and Big ears don't exist?

Gonna miss you on that spiritual plane. Conversely, there will always be an excuse to come and visit mortal men. So in way - thank you ! Please don't take it the wrong way ha !

oh that, phew, I dont know what I would do if Noddy and Big ears were fictional. Uhm well enjoy yourself on that spiritual plane, perhaps you could enlighten me as to what it feels like?

ight n Wrong are moral issues, which don't really come into the equation because of the law of causality - jo kara so bhara full stop. As for you having erred in anyway, never. It's my pleasure to be talking to someone like you.

I am not sure where this came from...

As I said above H, human nature has the pontential to change and it's never a question of choice,

Yes, I know that human nature has the pontential to change, but I fully believe it is a question of choice, or do you believe in fate?

but of circumstance and situation. God has brought us on this here page not incidently but coincidentally. This is a meaningful coincident - state of grace which befalls the few.

Oh, you believe in fate huh, or you dress Hukam up as fate?

H - can we do incentive another time, I've got to do my path n have roti !

Guess it beats chocolate biscuits and coke hunched over several dead computers, enjoy,

 

[Original]

ok this is all getting a bit Monty Python, I am tempted to shout out that you are 'making this up as you go along' but if you have not seen the film, that probably will not make much sense. Ok, the answer you are looking for is 'No', however, your question is slightly flawed, a butterfly would not have much opinion on changing from a caterpillar to a butterfly, as it is already a butterfly, does a caterpillar want to change from a caterpillar to a butterfly is probably what you meant, but having said all that, I would like to think a persons desire to live life according to SGGS, and the metamorphosis of a caterpillar are slightly different.

Indeed they're different, but they are nevertheless, analogously representational to the case at hand. That is to say, the "potential" [darwinian evolution - life a process of interactions between matter and energy described by the laws of physics and chemistry], actual [caterpillar] and eternal [butterfly]. Exactly what Baba Ji Nanak is saying [938 SGGSJ], albeit metaphorically; hey human how about utilising to the max your potential. But of course, if the end result is happiness and one is happy - why dig ! And, I agree with you 100% from a practical application perspective in the service of humankind. I say ride-on.

How many caterpillars did you survey for this? God knows - never kept a record of short-lived pleasures.


Ahhh I see, so I will become spiritual without any choice or desire on my part?

You bet, and of course, by virtue of being at SPN, the connotation is and, the mark of spirituality. For who otherwise when there is plenty out there, even for a moment, be glued to this here wave ? Only the "Point Break" surfer. H - you're spiritual without you knowing ! The butterfly knows nothing of the lift, wind speed, air resistance, vacuum and indeed physics in general. That does not prevent it from flying. It was born to fly. Emerged from the depths of water with the ability to do something it could never understand.


you see, the key word is potential....and another key word is choice, crevice is not a key word, but I thought I would mention it anyway.



I don't


uhmmmm Noddy and Big ears don't exist?



oh that, phew, I dont know what I would do if Noddy and Big ears were fictional. Uhm well enjoy yourself on that spiritual plane, perhaps you could enlighten me as to what it feels like? Have to attend to the garden to keep the peace - wife watches - harmony is found in balancing things.



I am not sure where this came from... This was in response to you saying, "...am doing something wrong.



Yes, I know that human nature has the pontential to change, but I fully believe it is a question of choice, or do you believe in fate?

Determinism with a wee bit of choice as seen through the lens of Moral Philosophy. Of course, you've got chance and probability looming all the time, but as for fate, like you I'm a Sikh and believe, um ? Tell tale will illustrate better: once upon a time, two Kings came into dispute over a plot of land. Both decided to battle it out. Both of them paid obeisance to this one Baba Ji. And, visits him separately.
King 1: Baba Ji, I'll be engaged in battle, help win the battle.
Baba Ji: Worry not, for you will surely win.
King 1 returns to his kingdom and celebrates with wine women and the rest amongst his warrior army.
King 2: Baba Ji, I'll be engaged in battle, help win the battle.
Baba Ji: Sorry, for you will lose.
King 2 returns to his kingdom, gathers his soldiers and said, "we'll lose the battle is what the oracle predicted, but because we're warriors we'll give'em a bloody good fight. So pack your bags and meet me for a drill at 5am".
Battle ensues, King 2 wins. So much for destiny hey H - Sikhs make their own destiny where I come from.

Love u n leave you before the Mrs eye me out.

More another time -
TC




Oh, you believe in fate huh, or you dress Hukam up as fate?



Guess it beats chocolate biscuits and coke hunched over several dead computers, enjoy, [/QUOTE]

 

[Harry Haller]

Indeed they're different, but they are nevertheless, analogously representational to the case at hand. That is to say, the "potential" [darwinian evolution - life a process of interactions between matter and energy described by the laws of physics and chemistry], actual [caterpillar] and eternal [butterfly]. Exactly what Baba Ji Nanak is saying [938 SGGSJ], albeit metaphorically; hey human how about utilising to the max your potential. But of course, if the end result is happiness and one is happy - why dig ! And, I agree with you 100% from a practical application perspective in the service of humankind. I say ride-on.

end result is happiness? am I happy? I have no interest in being happy, just content.

You bet, and of course, by virtue of being at SPN, the connotation is and, the mark of spirituality. For who otherwise when there is plenty out there, even for a moment, be glued to this here wave ? Only the "Point Break" surfer. H - you're spiritual without you knowing ! The butterfly knows nothing of the lift, wind speed, air resistance, vacuum and indeed physics in general. That does not prevent it from flying. It was born to fly. Emerged from the depths of water with the ability to do something it could never understand.

what is your definition of spirituality?

Determinism with a wee bit of choice as seen through the lens of Moral Philosophy. Of course, you've got chance and probability looming all the time, but as for fate, like you I'm a Sikh and believe, um ? Tell tale will illustrate better: once upon a time, two Kings came into dispute over a plot of land. Both decided to battle it out. Both of them paid obeisance to this one Baba Ji. And, visits him separately.
King 1: Baba Ji, I'll be engaged in battle, help win the battle.
Baba Ji: Worry not, for you will surely win.
King 1 returns to his kingdom and celebrates with wine women and the rest amongst his warrior army.
King 2: Baba Ji, I'll be engaged in battle, help win the battle.
Baba Ji: Sorry, for you will lose.
King 2 returns to his kingdom, gathers his soldiers and said, "we'll lose the battle is what the oracle predicted, but because we're warriors we'll give'em a bloody good fight. So pack your bags and meet me for a drill at 5am".
Battle ensues, King 2 wins. So much for destiny hey H - Sikhs make their own destiny where I come from.

Sikhs make their own destiny, yes, I agree with that,

 

[Original]

end result is happiness? am I happy? I have no interest in being happy, just content.

Relative states of being [happy content], albeit with variance in degree not subject-matter.

what is your definition of spirituality?

Immorality of the soul !

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

Real happiness is the state of pleasant mood. No worries; no fears; no ill thoughts. It arises from meeting a near and dear one or person of your liking; a work having been completed better than expected; g ood results or unexpected positive results etc.

 

[Harry Haller]

Real happiness is the state of pleasant mood. No worries; no fears; no ill thoughts. It arises from meeting a near and dear one or person of your liking; a work having been completed better than expected; g ood results or unexpected positive results etc.

I would concede that is happiness, but REAL happiness?