Islam Creation In Islam

[azizrasul]

When you try to get someone’s quote which includes their username, how do you do that?

We can get to the Sikh account of Creation at some point. But before we do, can someone explain how one can do more than compare and contrast Creation stories? How would we debate? Creation is a matter of belief. When you try to persuade someone to accept your creation story, then you are trying to get them to change their story, and therefore at root, change their religion.

Since this is a Sikh discussion forum and I’m in the Interfaith Dialogue portion, it would only be natural considering the purpose of the thread for someone to post any verses from the Sikh scriptures and compare and contrast with Islamic view and science. If I am able to persuade non Muslims that the Islamic version of the creation of the universe is not dissimilar to science, then surely it is up to each individual to look within themselves honestly and decide whether to accept it or not. If they decide not to, fine. If they do, then at least I have shown that Islam has something to offer.

If people do not willing accept Islam after the dawah invitation and refuse to pay a jizyah tax to keep their non-Muslim belief, then is the alternative "qitl fee sybil Allah" killing in the cause of Allah? Isn't that what Islam teaches?

No. Also you are mixing dawah with jizyah tax which are two different things. Jizyah tax is imposed on Jews\Christians as people of the book in a Muslim country IF they want protection from the Muslim state and are attacked by outsiders. The money goes towards the families of the Muslim fighters if they are killed in protecting them. If the Jews\Christians didn’t pay the jizyah tax, then the Muslims were not obliged to come to their aid. In this day and age, things are different in the sense that if each working person pays their income tax to the state, they automatically have the right to protection irrespective of which religion they belong to. In the past there was no such thing as income tax to the state and therefore the jizyah tax was more relevant then. In addition, non Muslims are not forced by Islam to not to keep their faith. See Qur’anic verse below (2:256).

jizyah tax is not paid anymore as far as I am aware. The main type of mandatory ‘tax’ that was paid and was relevant before, was the zakat. This was paid by Muslims towards helping poor Muslims. There was another voluntary tax called sadaqa which could go to any poor person irrespective of belief. These ‘taxes’ are still paid today. People often give this to Muslim charities who distribute it around the world to help Muslims and non Muslims.

As far as Dawah is concerned, a Muslim has a duty to tell other Muslims and yes non Muslims about whatever knowledge of Islam they have if they wish to listen. If they are not interested, then there is no such thing as compulsion. In fact quite the opposite as the following verse shows: -

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold, which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:256

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
Qur’an – Surah an-Nahl (The Bee) 16:125

According to my understanding of creation, the universe and humans were created by the creator.

Correct

According to my understanding of Islam, Muslims have a mandate from Allah to invite to Islam

Correct.

or get rid of the humans that are not Muslims. Is that what the creator wants--destruction of non-Muslims?

No. See above verses.

jihad/struggle in the cause of Allah

According to what I have learned about Sikhism, they believe in sarbat-de-bhalla: Caring for all Existence....This is contrasted by Muslims who care for Muslims. Muslims do allow converts and allow killing of non converts to Islam according to the will of Allah.

You need to understand what is meant by Jihad before you can judge. Struggling in the cause of Allah is where Muslims are asked to fight against oppression by non Muslims. This is what was happening in the days of Muhammad (peace and Allah’s blessings be upon him). The fact that there are some Muslims today who are not doing this, paints a wrong picture. Most Muslims regret this, but none the less it doesn’t make it a part of Islam. During the partition of India, some Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs killed innocent people. Does this mean that Hinduism\Islam\Sikhism supports this? Of course not.

39. To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; - and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-
Qur’an – Surah al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage) 22:39

Do not dishonour a treaty. Do not mutilate the dead. Do not kill women. Do not kill children. Do not kill the old. Do not fight those who are without weapons. Do not fight those who are engaged in worship (priests, rabbis, etc.). Kill only those who come at you. Do not cut down trees. Do not burn crops. And do not poison the wells of your enemies.
A saying of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Masjid, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
193. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:190-3 See also 8:57-75 and 61:4.

And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? - Men, women and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!”
Qur’an - Surah an-Nisaa’ (The Women) 4:75 See also 4:95 and 9:41.

8. Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances) that do wrong.
Qur’an - Surah al-Mumtahanah (She Who is Tested) 60:8-9 See also 3:195 and 16:90.

You do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness.
A saying of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)

Uproot fitnah (فتنة) or persecution 002:193] And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone).[/quote]
Fighting until there is no fitnah is a situation where the Muslims have been driven out or told not to continue with their Islamic faith. This was the case in the Days of Ignorance as it is called during the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him) when Muslims were tortured and killed by the non Muslims because of their beliefs. That is why their ultimately were battles between those tribes who oppressed the Muslims but there was no conflict between those tribes of non Muslims who did not oppress the Muslims.

[008:039] And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone (in the whole of the world). But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Here’s Marmaduke Picktall’s translation: -

8.38 Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers)
that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example
of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
8.39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But
if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

When it says that religion is all for Allah, in the context of the events that occurred at the time that the idol worshippers were oppressing the Muslims, it was a collective group of Muslims who were oppressed. Hence, it is not referring to the whole world as you put it.

compared to Islam which requires participation in qitl fee sybil all against all non-Muslims until fitnah ceases and all believe in Allah and follow sharia law.[/quote]
Incorrect.

As an educated person, do you believe that practised Islam is very very different from Qur’anic version of Islam?

In general no. There are after all 1.2 billion Muslims around the world and increasing daily. As an example, Litvenyenko became a Muslim on his deathbed and asked to be buried as a Muslim.

Sworn Avenger – I have asked people to post their belief in the creation of the universe. If you or they choose not to do so, is not my fault. I want to compare and contrast.

listening to your imams and wotnot,

I personally have little respect for most imams, although there are always exceptions.

Maybe i do stereotype muslims, but that is becuase i live and have grown up with muslims surrounding me, and every single one of them is ignorant about others peoples beliefs, they will not accept it therefore i will not accept theirs.

I have studied some Judaism and Christianity.

How many Chrisitian or Sikh Gangs, run around Brixton, Pecham forcing people to convert to Islam

See 2:256 above.

Why is there so much contreversy over islam?

Is there? According to my knowledge of Islam, I have not found any. Please enlighten.

they are believing the same beliefs as you.

What do you base that on?

They have that ignorance and non acceptance in them too.

Having knowledge in what I believe is the TRUTH makes me ignorant in your eyes, so be it. We are entitled to our opinions. I openly declare that I am a believer in Allah and his messengers. If that makes me a non accepting of other faiths, then so what. I feel happy within myself.

 

[Sworn_Avenger]

Aziz Rasul, You cant understand were my in tolerance for islam, have a look at the other thread i have been posting on, "Which religions will last" this shows you where im from, and what muslims on my street do. Look at page 5 were i have proof of everything i said on that thread, and then you will understand my hatred and maybe be able to correct me and shows me that not all muslims are like the thousands of gang members in London, Bradford, Birmingham, Leicster, etc etc etc. Al Queida, al your jihaad, your suicide bombers blowing themselves up EVERYDAY in palestine. How if i don't walk down the street with my crew or my weopan knowing that myself (someone walking to work in a suit) may have a gun put to his head and told to convert by your people, and this is in a nicer area. So please dont tell me islam is a religion of damn Peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[azizrasul]

Aziz Rasul, You cant understand were my in tolerance for islam, have a look at the other thread i have been posting on, "Which religions will last" this shows you where im from, and what muslims on my street do. Look at page 5 were i have proof of everything i said on that thread, and then you will understand my hatred and maybe be able to correct me and shows me that not all muslims are like the thousands of gang members in London, Bradford, Birmingham, Leicster, etc etc etc. Al Queida, al your jihaad, your suicide bombers blowing themselves up EVERYDAY in palestine. How if i don't walk down the street with my crew or my weopan knowing that myself (someone walking to work in a suit) may have a gun put to his head and told to convert by your people, and this is in a nicer area. So please dont tell me islam is a religion of damn Peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !1

Islam is based in the Qur'an and Sunnah, not based on street gangs. Your last comment only demeans you as a person rather than me as a Muslim.

 

[Sworn_Avenger]

Here i will post some links and information to prove my statements of the extent of force conversion in the U.K's Capital and other major cities.

Small article on the "times online" showing how violence between christian and muslim trouble began according to the media. (but it still points in the same direction, take note of the report of muslim youths attacking people gathering at a church!!!!!)

Man dead as race riot erupts in Birmingham - Times Online

Now i live in London, With relatives in Birmingham, so let me tell you the truth of this story, a young jamaican girl was being forced to convert, when she refused she was skorned as unfaithful and not a "soldier of allah" she was deemed as a ***** so they raped her. Her family was threatened hence the reason she did not report this


Criminal gangs use Islam to intimidate victims | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

These guys are real sick, PDC, It shows a small paragraph about people getting converted at gunpoint, is this not important why then go on to talk about how muslims i scared beacuse of the 9/11 attacks. This link also shows its cool and you gain street cre and protection to become a muslim. this is from the guardian newspaper.

Adrian Marriot shot five times in the head because he didnt convert

Western Resistance: UK: Muslim Prison Gang Attack "Apostate"

tell me why this is only muslim gangs that do this??? give me one straight answer why other religions do not do this, only muslims.

 

[Sworn_Avenger]

1 in 11 muslims in the UK support suicide bombers.... thats not a small section of islam that support suicide bombers thats an enormous figure.

One in 11 British Muslims backs suicide bombers, says Brown aide | the Daily Mail

and the proof

 

[azizrasul]

You ask me to respond to a previous post yet you don't make any point to anything I said but have gone off at a tangent. From past experience it is often those who cannot involve themselves in an intelligent discussion that then resort to such tactics as you are doing. I have not looked at the links nor do I wish to. Please make a valid contribution to this thread if you want me to take you seriously. What does Sikhism say about the moment of creation. Try answering that. At least it will be related to the thread topic.

 

[Sworn_Avenger]

I am punjabi, but i am not sikh. But now it is you who is dodging my posts. Look at the facts i have provided you, all from primary sources. This thread has changed its course, you cant talk about past experience with me, you've never interacted with people like me. I could reply tou your threads, its not rocket science to respond to what your saying, however i feel there are more pressing issues worth a discussion with the likes of yourself

 

[cherylyoung]

Azizrasul,

I didn't even type "muslim" to find this video clip. All I typed was "female rights and abuse" and bingo.
Doesn't this tell you something, Azizrasul ?
.

From purely a health standpoint, the practice of hijab covering all exposed skin with the niqab, abayah, jilbab, buibuis chador or burka causes serious Vitamin D deficiency because Vitamin D is absorbed from sunlight through the skin.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Bradford | Rickets rises among city's young
Many Muslim women are at higher risk [for rickets] because Islamic dress codes prevent the skin absorbing ultra violet light at high enough levels.

 

[azizrasul]

I am punjabi, but i am not sikh.

Not sure whether the Punjabis will be happy to know, but the Sikh's will be jumping up and down with joy.

But now it is you who is dodging my posts.

You've done that in tha vast majority of your posts.

you've never interacted with people like me.

How do u no?

I could reply tou your threads, its not rocket science to respond to what your saying

Well go on then!

Since no one has come back with similar verses from Sikh scriptures, I can only assume that there is none.

Science tells us that the early state of the universe was a gaseous one. Here's what the Qur'an says: -

Moreover He comprehended in His design the heaven, and it had been (as) smoke.
Qur’an - Surah Fussilat (Explained in Detail) 41:11 See also 2:29 and 13:2.

 

[Sworn_Avenger]

Lets cut the ********, beating around the bush, whats your key motive to what your trying to explain, you want us to convert? you want to teach us your ways? you want to compare our religions with your mighty righteous one with no sin and no faults so we can see the light and see the lifes u lead are so much better than our own, in the sense you wont get shot 5 times in the head like that poor guy in South London becuase he wouldnt follow this holy peaceful religion, or the girl that was severly raped and beaten for being classed as a ***** and an animal because she wasn't muslim, then great idea...but otherwise...what do you want.

 

[azizrasul]

I'll say 1 thing about u Sworn Avenger, each post u provide is as meaningless as your last 1. Ur consistent and predictable. I think u put this forum to shame. I'm sure most contributors want to have a constructive debate, u obviously don't.

Is ur faith so weak that u feel so threatened by Islam? Why don't u tackle the debate head on. I've given 2 examples of science and Qur'anic verses. What sensible (assuming u have a sensble opinion about anything) opinion do u have regarding these?

 

[Sworn_Avenger]

ok i will give you my opinions on these matters.

However before i give you the previlege of myself doing so, let me point out once again you have dodged my post, really what is your key motive. any of the above?

 

[Astroboy]

Qur'an11:7
He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death", the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"

Azizrasul,
Do you really believe heaven and earth was created in six Days ?

 

[azizrasul]

What do you understand by the word Days used here?

 

[Sherab]

I'll say 1 thing about u Sworn Avenger, each post u provide is as meaningless as your last 1. Ur consistent and predictable. I think u put this forum to shame. I'm sure most contributors want to have a constructive debate, u obviously don't.

Is ur faith so weak that u feel so threatened by Islam? Why don't u tackle the debate head on. I've given 2 examples of science and Qur'anic verses. What sensible (assuming u have a sensble opinion about anything) opinion do u have regarding these?

Hello.

SGGS says that God created everything that we see.

hukmI hovin Awkwr hukmu n kihAw jweI ] hukmee hovan aakaar hukam na kahi-aa jaa-ee.
By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.

hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie ]hukmai andar sabh ko baahar hukam na ko-ay.
Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

nwnk hukmY jy buJY q haumY khY n koie ]2] naanak hukmai jay bujhai ta ha-umai kahai na ko-ay. ||2||
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego.

As for scientific facts found within the SGGS, i will have a harder look.

Don;t blame a 6 day-old convert to Sikhism to know everything.

 

[Astroboy]

Sworn_Avenger,
I agree with your statements that your questions are being dodged by the starter of this thread. See what I found after reading what you mentioned about crimes by muslims.



And when the word is fulfilled concerning them, We shall bring forth a beast of the earth to speak unto them because mankind had not faith in Our revelations. (27:82)


Then again didn’t Muhammad claim to be the last prophet? (33:40) If he was the last one to bring us a message from God, then what is this beast going to be? If this beast is going to bring us a message, he is a messenger and the title of Khatama alnnabiyyeen (the last of prophets) that Muhammad claimed for himself should go to this animal. If 33:40 is right then the verse 27:82 must be wrong.

 

[azizrasul]

I agree with your statements that your questions are being dodged by the starter of this thread.

I'm surprised at you Begum when Sworn Avenger is dodging the subject of the thread.

In relation to the SIX Days, here is an extract from my book explaining the situation: -

As a pre-requisite to understanding the so called ‘six days’ of creation of the universe, often incorrectly given in some early English translations of the Qur’an, we need to be aware that the reference to the ‘six days’ do not refer to six Earthly days in the original Arabic i.e. time measured according to the movement of the earth in relation to the sun.

During the early stages of the universe, the Sun and Earth did not exist, as the above verses have shown. The Qur’an often refers to the word ‘Day’ as a period of time that will come to pass in post tense to refer to the hereafter e.g. Day of Judgement or the Day of Resurrection. Some Qur’anic examples are 1:4, 3:9, 3:24-30, 3:106, 6:15, 6:130, 7:51, 7:59, 10:15, 15:35-8, 16:111, 18:52, 19:38-9, 21:103-4, 24:64, 26:82, 27:83, 28:65, 31:33, 37:20-1, 38:16, 40:15, etc.

The Arabic singular (wahid) word for a period of time is yaum[1], Hebrew - yôm. In the Arabic language there is also a dual (tasniya) classification i.e. yaumain (two of). The plural (jamaa) consisting of three or more, is ayam. The word yaum has more than one meaning in which one of them is a day. But it also takes the meaning of a period of time.

Here are some occasions where the word yaum is used in the Qur’an to show that the interpretation of the word yaum is a large span of time.

The angels and the Spirit (Gabriel) ascend unto Him in a period of time (yaum) the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:
Qur’an – Surah al-Ma’arij (The Ways of Ascent) 70:4

He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, in a period of time (yaum), the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.
Qur’an - Surah as-Sajda (The Prostration) 32:5 See also 22:47.

The Creator mentions six distinct periods or stages of growth of the universe.

9. Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two periods (yaumain), and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of all Creation.
10. “He set in the (Earth) mountains standing firm. He blessed it. He measured therein its sustenance in four periods (ayam - this includes the above two periods of the solid Earth and two periods of the formless Earth as a gaseous evolving entity), in due proportion, in accordance with the needs of those who ask for sustenance.
11. Moreover (tumma) He comprehended in His design the heaven, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth (the earth at this stage is in a gaseous form): "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
12. “Then He ordained them seven heavens in two periods (yaumain), and he assigned to each heaven its mandate by Revelation. And We adorned the lower heaven with luminaries and provided it a guard. Such is the decree of the All Mighty, the Full of Knowledge.”
Qur’an - Surah Fussilat (Explained in Detail) 41:9-12 See also 13:3 and 16:15.
The above verses do not lay down the sequence of the creation. We are informed that the seven heavens or firmaments were created in two periods. The formless matter constituting the eventual Earth was formed in two periods, and lastly the Earth as a solid entity with its mountains and pasture was formed in two periods.

In the scientific field, we are told that the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years old and that the physical earth is approximately 4.567 billions years old. The ratio between the age of the solid Earth to the universe is 1/3. According to the Qur’an, the Earth (as a solid mass) was created in two periods, while the whole universe has evolved in six periods. Hence the ratio between the ages of the solid Earth to the universe is again 1/3. Therefore science and scripture are in perfect harmony with each other.

There are other verses that do lay down an exact sequence of the creation of the universe i.e. showing the progression in which the various components of the universe came into existence: -

27. Are you the harder to create or is it the heaven that (God) built?
28. He raised its canopy and fashioned it with harmony.
29. He made dark the night and He brought out the forenoon (the light).
30. And after that He spread (Earth) it out.
31. Therefrom he drew out its water and its pasture.
32. And the mountains He has fixed firmly.
Qur’an - Surah an-Naazi`aat (Those who drag forth) 79:27-32 See also 67:3, 71:15 and 78:12.

Scientifically, verses 27-28 relate to the gaseous state of the early universe. Verse 29 refers to the creation of the sun (and other stars). Verses 30-31 refer to the formless or early state of the Earth whilst verse 32 refers to the Earth as a solid entity. In science we know through gradual cooling of the universe from its initial extremely high temperatures, the universe and its components begin to take shape. The above components of the universe namely the sun and the earth are more relevant to us.

“God is the One Who created the heavens, the earth and what is between them in six periods (ayam).” Then He mounted the Throne. Ye have not, beside Him, a protecting friend or mediator. Will ye not then remember?
Qur’an - Surah as-Sajda (The Prostration) 32:4 See also 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 14:5, 22:47, 25:59 and 50:38.

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decrees a matter, He says to it: ‘Be,’ and it is.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:117 See also 6:101, 10:4, 10:34, 27:64, 29:19, 37:6, 54:49-50 and85:13.

[1]Maurice Bucaille in his book ‘The Bible, the Qur'an and Science’ provides the following additional information -
“The fact that the word, yaum could mean a period of time that was quite different from the period that we mean by the word 'day' struck very early commentators who, of course, did not have the knowledge we possess today concerning the length of the stages in the formation of the Universe. In the Sixteenth century A.D. for example, Abu al Su'ud, who could not have had any idea of the day as defined astronomically in terms of the Earth's rotation, thought that for the Creation a division must be considered that was not into days as we usually understand the word, but into 'events' (in Arabic nauba).”

 

[Astroboy]

It seems the author of the Quran thought that the Sun (and the moon and the five known planets) followed a curved (rounded) course (a Falak). According to the Quran this falak starts in the east (where the sun goes up), goes high above the earth and ends after sunset with the Sun resting at night at a hidden place. All this took place around an earth that was spread out and had a firmament built on invisible pillars above it.

The sun and moon are signs from Allah
According to the Quran the sun and the moon are some of the signs (al ayaat) that are created by Allah. In the Quran Allah also promises to "explain his signs in detail, for people who have knowledge."
Qur'an 10:5

It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out its (their) stages, that you might know the number of years and the reckoning. Allāh did not create this but in truth. He explains the signs in detail for people who have knowledge.​

Qur'an 21:33

And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They all float in rounded courses.​

Azizrasul,

The above quotes from the Quran clearly show that the Quran's version of Cosmic science is greatly flawed.

 

[cherylyoung]

Since no one has come back with similar verses from Sikh scriptures, I can only assume that there is none.

Science tells us that the early state of the universe was a gaseous one. Here's what the Qur'an says: -

Moreover He comprehended in His design the heaven, and it had been (as) smoke.
Qur’an - Surah Fussilat (Explained in Detail) 41:11 See also 2:29 and 13:2.

I know very little about Sikhism or whether there are verses about the creation of the universe. You have provided verses from the Qur'an about the creation of the universe and alluded to "science".

If "science" explains that the universe was gaseous. And the Qur'an says that the universe was as smoke....so what does that imply?

Was the universe created randomly or divinely guided? Were you and I created simply by cellular division or was there some divine intervention?

Is your focus on the process of creation or on the creator of the universe?

Assuming that you believe in a divine creator, what do you believe his purpose was in creating the universe and mankind?

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Gurfateh

Brother Aziz,

Asalaam Al Qum,

There are some Muslims who say that this version of Holy Kuran is only 1/3rd.Anyway das is more with you that what we have is OK.

We also have faith that Gurmat is from Baba Adam Ahle Sala.

have a look.

ang 1165



ਸਤਰਿ ਸੈਇ ਸਲਾਰ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕੇ ॥
सतरि सैइ सलार है जा के ॥
Saṯar sai­ė salār hai jā kė.
He has 7,000 commanders,

ਸਵਾ ਲਾਖੁ ਪੈਕਾਬਰ ਤਾ ਕੇ ॥
सवा लाखु पैकाबर ता के ॥
Savā lākẖ paikābar ṯā kė.
and hundreds of thousands of prophets;

ਸੇਖ ਜੁ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਠਾਸੀ ॥
सेख जु कहीअहि कोटि अठासी ॥
Sėkẖ jo kahī­ahi kot aṯẖāsī.
He is said to have 88,000,000 shaykhs,

ਛਪਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਸੀ ॥੧॥
छपन कोटि जा के खेल खासी ॥१॥
Cẖẖapan kot jā kė kẖėl kẖāsī. ||1||
and 56,000,000 attendants. ||1||

ਮੋ ਗਰੀਬ ਕੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਜਰਾਵੈ ॥
मो गरीब की को गुजरावै ॥
Mo garīb kī ko gujrāvai.
I am meek and poor - what chance do I have of being heard there?

ਮਜਲਸਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मजलसि दूरि महलु को पावै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Majlas ḏūr mahal ko pāvai. ||1|| rahā­o.
His Court is so far away; only a rare few attain the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||Pause||

ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਨਾ ॥
तेतीस करोड़ी है खेल खाना ॥
Ŧėṯīs karoṛī hai kẖėl kẖānā.
He has 33,000,000 play-houses.

ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲਖ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨਾਂ ॥
चउरासी लख फिरै दिवानां ॥
Cẖa­urāsī lakẖ firai ḏivānāʼn.
His beings wander insanely through 8.4 million incarnations.

ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਕਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥
बाबा आदम कउ किछु नदरि दिखाई ॥
Bābā āḏam ka­o kicẖẖ naḏar ḏikẖā­ī.
He bestowed His Grace on Adam, the father of mankind,

ਉਨਿ ਭੀ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਘਨੇਰੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
उनि भी भिसति घनेरी पाई ॥२॥
Un bẖī bẖisaṯ gẖanėrī pā­ī. ||2||
who then lived in paradise for a long time. ||2||

ਦਿਲ ਖਲਹਲੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਜਰਦ ਰੂ ਬਾਨੀ ॥
दिल खलहलु जा कै जरद रू बानी ॥
Ḏil kẖalhal jā kai jaraḏ rū bānī.
Pale are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed.

ਛੋਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਰੈ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ॥
छोडि कतेब करै सैतानी ॥
Cẖẖod kaṯėb karai saiṯānī.
They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil.

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੋਸੁ ਰੋਸੁ ਹੈ ਲੋਈ ॥
दुनीआ दोसु रोसु है लोई ॥
Ḏunī­ā ḏos ros hai lo­ī.
One who blames the world, and is angry with people,

ਅਪਨਾ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥
अपना कीआ पावै सोई ॥३॥
Apnā kī­ā pāvai so­ī. ||3||
shall receive the fruits of his own actions. ||3||

ਤੁਮ ਦਾਤੇ ਹਮ ਸਦਾ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥
तुम दाते हम सदा भिखारी ॥
Ŧum ḏāṯė ham saḏā bẖikẖārī.
You are the Great Giver, O Lord; I am forever a beggar at Your Door.

ਦੇਉ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਹੋਇ ਬਜਗਾਰੀ ॥
देउ जबाबु होइ बजगारी ॥
Ḏė­o jabāb ho­ė bajgārī.
If I were to deny You, then I would be a wretched sinner.

ਦਾਸੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਹ ਸਮਾਨਾਂ ॥
दासु कबीरु तेरी पनह समानां ॥
Ḏās Kabīr ṯėrī panah samānāʼn.
Slave Kabeer has entered Your Shelter.

ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਜੀਕਿ ਰਾਖੁ ਰਹਮਾਨਾ ॥੪॥੭॥੧੫॥
भिसतु नजीकि राखु रहमाना ॥४॥७॥१५॥
Bẖisaṯ najīk rākẖ rehmānā. ||4||7||15||
Keep me near You, O Merciful Lord God - that is heaven for me. ||4||7||15||
Also try to read the tranlitration for Islamic terms.

Fact is both we and you Ie Sikhs and Muslim worship same God and faith is same Sanatan(Akali or eternal faith called Islam or Gurmat.

Just for the sake of fundamentalists ego people tend to fight that yours is Good or mine is good.

You appear to have the wrong end of the stick on the above translation. Please read the correct message as follows:

Kabir ji appears to be conversing with some one and is saying that your are telling me your God is:

He who has seven thousand commanders, whose prophets are one and a quarter lakh. Who is said to own 88,000,000 religious learned men, and whose courtiers are 56,000,000. What chance, can I, a poor man, have of being heard there? His court is said to be so far away, how can one then find it.
Pause.
He who has thirty three millions resident servents. Eighty four million of his beings madly wander lost in his existence. When the Lord gazed a stern look at Baba Adam, evenhe had to quickly exit from paradise. (What chance do I have for staying there for a long time ?)

Pale are the faces of those, whose hearts are perturbed.They forsake their scripturers and practise evil. Then theyblames the world and are cross with the people(take anger out on people); they receive the fruit of his mis-deeds.
Kabir ji is saying that I do not need any paradise :
You are the Giver, O Lord, and I am forever a beggar at your door. (What ever you offer me is acceptable) If I were to deny it , then I would be a sinner.Kabir, Thy slave, has entered into you refuge.Keeping me near you, O Merciful Master is like heaven for me.

This shabad appears to indicates that a muslim is suggesting to Kabir to convert to Islam. The muslim is doing a show off of his God and his influence. But kabir ji is responding to the muslim by saying that I am a poor man, among all that crowd who is going to listen to my plea. He is so far away. Staying immersed in his remembrance is like heaven for me.

Please do not massage the truth. Read Gurmukhi and translations by Prof Sahib Singh for clarity. Translations of Dr Sant Singh Khalsa are incomplete.

Regards

ekmusafir_ajnabi