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Dancing And Gurbani

(Read the main post first) Would you "dance" to kirtan? Explain.

  • Yes...

    Votes: 8 17.0%
  • No...

    Votes: 35 74.5%
  • I don't listen to kirtan...

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not sure...

    Votes: 5 10.6%

  • Total voters
    47

Admin

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

Antonia ji, why not I ask?
And if you read my replies in the beginning I kept insisting that dancing here is not hardcore movement of the body, its moving with the kirtan, and since most kirtan is raag/raag-like, the movements will be slow and flowing (almost natural), could even be like those dervishes. Try putting on a shabad and watch the dervishes whirl at 0 volume... :rofl:


I am also picturing the Chinese what's is called, where they move around, and discipline themselves. .... what they show in martial arts movies... I totally forgot!!

When Sikh Gurus based all Gurbani on 31 Raags then why didn't They form or associate even a single of the dance formations prevalent at that time? Something to ponder upon... :)
 

BhagatSingh

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

When Sikh Gurus based all Gurbani on 31 Raags then why didn't They form or associate even a single of the dance formations prevalent at that time? Something to ponder upon... :)
Yes good point.
A few possiblilities:
- Admin Cut: Disrespect to the Gurus will not be tolerated. Freedom of speech is not to be exploited at SPN, it is to be enjoyed. You are crossing a limit.
- raags create mood, do dances create that mood as well? i don't think so.. for dance to take place you need the raag anyway
- this leads to third possiblity, the raag sets the stage for the dance but any dance is acceptable, anything that occurs naturally
- the gurus are silent on this, so I take it that they are not against it. So perhaps they left it upon us to figure out for ourselves
- Admin Cut: Disrespect to the Gurus will not be tolerated. Freedom of speech is not to be exploited at SPN, it is to be enjoyed. You are crossing a limit.
- dance may have been considered cheap at the time
 
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Admin

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

Admin Cut: Disrespect to the Gurus will not be tolerated. Freedom of speech is not to be exploited at SPN, it is to be enjoyed. You are crossing a limit.
 

BhagatSingh

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

Just because I said the Gurus are only human??? and they might have not known something??
HAHA
that is disrespect?
hahaha
WOW! I didn't expect that on SPN...
 

Admin

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

Do not expect too much when it comes to maintaining a right balance. We do not expect you to hurt the sentiments of the thousands of online Sangat reading your messages. Being a educated and responsible person, we do not expect you to use inflammatory language against anybody and what you are doing is beyond comprehension. We believe you will understand and draw a limit which is acceptable to Sikh Sangat and SPN. SPN is by the Sikh Sangat not the other way around. Take care. :)
 

BhagatSingh

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

I only stated what I know is the truth. According to history, they were not known to be ... what I said. Anyway, the Gurus would side with what the truth is. The sangat should be able to handle it as well.
Of course, there are other places where it can be debated but I was not debating.
Anyway, thanks for taking off the major possibilities... you really added to the discussion there by removing them...
 

Admin

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

What we know as the truth is the limit of our comprehension... Ofcourse the Guru knows the Truth.

Please avoid inflammatory language when you are debating... there are many ways to convey a message... that's all we are asking...

Of course there are 100 million discussion forums but there is only one SPN. Enjoy your stay over here. Regards. ;)
 

BhagatSingh

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

What we know as the truth is the limit of our comprehension... Ofcourse the Guru knows the truth. Please avoid inflammatory language when you are debating... there are many ways to convey a message... thats all we are asking...

Of course there are 100 million discussion forums but there is only one SPN. Enjoy your stay over here. Regards. ;)
So how do you suggest I convey what you deleted?
I meant what I said.

Anyway, let's continue with the discussion in the meantime.
 

Admin

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

Some people just don't quit.
Dear Singh, You yourself breached Forum Rule No. 2,3,3A & 11 in this topic alone. Not expected from a Singh like you. Please be more careful. :)

Admin Note: I think there is a need to re-read the Forum Rules/Regulations. Let us just go through.

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BhagatSingh

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

Thanks Aman Singh ji!

I found an article on "spiritual dances". I guess someone already coined a term, lol, but I still like my "motion meditation" term. :D

Article from: Dance helps churches get in step with God

Dance helps churches get in step with God
By CECELIA GOODNOW
P-I REPORTER
A dozen lithe, young bodies undulate in unison on the shadowy dance floor -- lunging, flexing, tracing shoulder circles to a throbbing bass that resonates in the bones.
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View a slideshow (with audio) featuring photos by Robert Sumner:
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Reflected in the mirrored walls, the dancers' indistinct ranks seem to stretch from here to eternity in the mini-twinkle of white and blue holiday lights.
"Free-dommm," wails a soulful vocalist.
It could be a page from the club scene, like any date bar on a Friday night. But judge not according to appearance, as the Good Book says.
For this "From the Soul" class at Westlake Dance Center is a 90-minute shadow dance with God -- one entry on an increasingly crowded Christian dance card.
"Lord," a young student murmurs in heartfelt opening prayer, "really bless this class and let us not worry about what other people think of us."
Like a suitor who has finally passed parental muster, dance is making itself at home as an expression of Christian faith, feeding a hunger for soulful movement that both giveth and taketh from pop culture.
Once limited to charismatic and Pentecostal worship, dance has entered the mainstream as a growing number of churches weave choreographed dance moves, from hip-hop ensembles to sylphlike solos, into their services.
Increasingly, it's a two-way street, as trained dancers with Christian beliefs make their presence felt in the seculardance world.
226praise_class_danceB.jpg
Robert Sumner / Special to the Seattle P-I Kate Harris, left, and Angela Smith practice a dance during a class called "From the Soul" at the Westlake Dance Center in Seattle. McDonald's Gospelfest, which has its Seattle debut Saturday at The Paramount Theatre, jumped on the trend five years ago with a new "praise dance" category that is fast overtaking the more traditional singing acts.
The trend has launched an entire industry of instructional DVDs, classes -- even "liturgical dancewear" that blends freedom of movement with New Testament modesty. Think ankle-length circle skirts and angel sleeves.
Never mind that some contemporary Christian dancers wouldn't be caught dead in them.
"The silhouette is very much like what a priest would wear," said designer Liz Livingstone, a West Seattle native who recently took over Capezio's year-old liturgical dance line. "It's all about modesty."
Like Capezio, Body Wrappers is known for ballet leotards that fit like a second skin. But six years ago it bowed to customer demand and blazed a trail for liturgical dancewear of the manger-scene variety. Response has been huge, and the line now accounts for 7 percent of sales.
"We saw an opportunity, and we took it," said Marketing Director Judith Christ (rhymes with "kissed").
Locally, the trend is showing up in classes such as "From the Soul," a Christian dance class launched three years ago at Westlake Dance Center near Northgate.
Each sweat-drenched, 90-minute session blends prayer circles and uplifting parables with rigorous jazz technique, driven by a contemporary Christian soundtrack of rock and R&B.
"We don't water it down," said instructor and dance center director Sheri Lewis, a forthright redhead who deplores the "cheesiness" of so much Christian dance.
"If the word 'Jesus' is in the music, we don't (turn) it down to be politically correct."
The drop-in class has a joyful vibe, with playful camaraderie among the students, many of whom are regulars.
"I feel more confident here as a dancer," said 24-year-old Angela Smith. "No one is going to judge you. Among dancers, it's so competitive. You have to look a certain way, be a certain way. When you come here, it's an audience of one."
"Spirit Play," at Phinney Neighborhood Center, is another road sign on the highway to heavenly dance. The twice-a-month class is taught by Betsey Beckman, a nationally known Catholic liturgical dancer who, according to her bio, "dedicates her life and work to reclaiming and celebrating the body as sacred."
Beckman, all muscle and sinew, recently teamed up with a member of University Congregational Church to rehe{censored}, through dance and dialogue, the parable of "The Woman at the Well" for an upcoming Sunday service.
226praise_class_pray.jpg
Robert Sumner / Special to the Seattle P-I Sara Sabandal, center, of Woodinville prays at the conclusion of a class at the Westlake Dance Center. Students may pray in silence or aloud as they sit in the circle. Using her shawl with the artistry of a caped matador, she sinuously twisted, uncoiled her frame and unfurled a graceful leg toward the heavens.
"In liturgical dance," said Beckman, "you're meant to be a vehicle to a larger purpose."
In Redmond, 6th Day Dance Company is one of the most ambitious examples of the dance trend. A professional, modern-dance troupe with a Christian overlay, 6th Day was formed in 2003 and recently earned non-profit status.
One of its stated missions is to stage community productions to "educate audiences on the use of dance as an act of spirituality."
"We actually started as a dance ministry of Antioch Bible Church," Breece said. "The purpose at that time was to offer dance as a praise and worship tool to the church members."
The company's hip-hop troupe, Unscripted, offers "educational outreach" and defines its style as "tight and precise and cool, just like our Savior."
"We're not about preaching," said Breece, "but we want to give kids an alternative to what's out there on the street."
In this age of politicized religion, 6th Day offers a mixed message. On one hand, Breece said, anyone can come to a show and have a good time: "We just want to get a conversation going, and you don't have to believe what we believe."
On the other hand, she describes the dancers as "taking a stand" for their beliefs. Hence the title of their upcoming spring performance: "Breaking Ground."
"I feel we are breaking ground in Washington," Breece said. "Washington is a totally liberal state, and we're here to fight that.
"Sometimes dance is a much less intrusive way for people to hear the message."
Given the trend, it was only a matter of time before Christian dancers made their presence felt in secular arenas such as Cornish College of the Arts.
Kitty Daniels, who chairs the dance department at the Capitol Hill school, said the past five years have brought an influx of Christian students -- people looking for ways to integrate faith and dance.
"They're becoming more open about it," she said. "It never used to be mentioned in application essays before."
Some of the students have even formed a Bible study group -- a move that has Daniels scratching her head, given that, historically, "artists tend to be the rebels in society."
By now she has come to expect that, when seniors perform their required thesis concerts, some will use the program notes to thank not only their parents and teachers, but the powers above.
"In the last two years," she said, "probably 20 percent have said, 'I thank the Lord for my faith.' "
It's not always a comfortable fit.
"When I went to Cornish my freshman year," said Amy Weaver, a 2005 graduate who dances professionally, "I felt like a freak because I was a Christian. What (classmates) perceived a Christian to be -- I wasn't that. For the first time, I felt like a minority."
Having honed their technique, some dancers hope to raise the aesthetics of spiritual dance and turn it into a recognized art form.
Vania Bynum, a former Microsoft engineer and recent Cornish graduate, solos at churches in Seattle and hopes to form a company along the lines of 6th Day Dance. She studied praise-dance technique at Dramatic Truth, a Christian dance school in Kansas.
Despite Seattle's "unchurched" reputation, she sees a strong strain of spirituality here and believes anyone can enjoy the artistry of a well-executed Christian dance.
"Even if you are an atheist," she said, "you can be touched by spiritual dance."
 

Archived_Member5

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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

Dancing is a form of communication, it speaks a dialect of words and poetry in motion. It is the art of the free. Some as yet with a susceptibility to what is considered frivolity take exception to dancing per se, and would consider dancing to Kirtan reprehensible. It is considered inappropriate to display any lack of impropriety. Dervishes twirling in quiet motion are the spirit unfettered. Free will accorded to individuals is manifested in differing ways. Some come alive to the beat of the dhol and others feel their sensibilities assaulted and set upon by groups of individuals freely swaying with gay abandon. As improper speech rouses devilishness and mortifies the civil, thus such undisciplined motion affronts those who prefer to exercise such displays in the designated places.

You may have witnessed on dancing floors at parties etc, some dace consciously of those around them whilst others seem to be taken by a jinn and lose themselves to the music, sometimes in an embarrassing and uninhibited manner. Most respectable folk have no desire to be privy to such displays of exhibitionism. Dancing should therefore remain in places where such merriment is to be expected.

The sensibilities or sensitivity of most folk at times seems to struggle with carnal temptation, to maintain sobriety at all times, we would not wish to witness any displays of such in our elders and silently decry any such attempts to change what is an accepted premise for decent society.

Anger management problems. Each individual is indeed limited to as much understanding and comprehension as his personal acumen and intuitive perception allows. The wise head holds a silent and still tongue. Alas truth seekers, the tormented and angered are usually the loudest and verbose, I being a victim of such ill considered outspokenness at times. Tempers flare in forums in times when peace of mind has become a luxury to be hankered for than a basic right. Maybe in the age of information technology many babbling brooks have created what is a hellish lake of fire, millions of neurons conflicting with opposing synapses all firing and sparking controversy whilst touching on a persons highly charged nerve endings.

The wise ascetic takes a vow of silence. ‘I think therefore I Am’ is a prelude to 'I am therefore ‘’I am silent’’. The transcended mind becomes at one with its universal consciousness and withdraws into a blissful silence. Maybe we should all remain mindful of the fact that persons expending much time on talking, discussing, exchanging ideas are actually all suffering a mild form of addictive psychosis. A need to find a truth to set them free. The brain becomes accustomed to deep, intense stimulation and constantly craves further doses of thought provoking nuggets. Once the mind is freed, the journey becomes not to think, but to know all things in silence... Silence is Golden.
 

mein murakh

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Dec 2, 2008
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Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

strange! dancing in tune with GURBANI. i think we are wasting our precious time in this topic .Ok; lets ask dhan sri guru granth sahib whether we sould or not,sahib told us "waaen chele nachan gur.........aap pachharen dharti naal" then "ditti baang niwaj kar...............[sun mun nagri bhaee dekh peer bhaea hairana]" please keep note on sun mun. when my sahib nanak ji is singing the whole city is in amusing situation and the city is without word.i m sure that is the actual stage " kaho kabeer gunge gur khaea pooche te keaa kahie" and if someone is dancing gurbani:happy:...........................moorkhe naal na lujiay.
 

Admin

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Admin Note:
As it turning out to be a study of Sikhism in conjunction with other philosophies, this topic has a new heading and is moved to interfaith dialogues section. Kindly be informed accordingly.
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
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Apologies. My point was the matter of equipoise, of spiritual equilibrium, of bani and kirtan being paths to the state of sahej. Dancing may be a release in the appropriate place but has no bearing in matters of prayer. American churches sing loudly and dance and who are we to cast aspersions. I do not consider dancing around totem poles in a fit of elevated, excitable hysteria has any relevance to prayer, shabad or kirtan. The Sikh prayer ritual of deep devotional peace and sobriety is extremely difficult to elaborate upon as it is near perfect. There is no desire for any Sikhs to need to frolic like dervishes or dancers*. Calm, composed and collected state of supreme and sublime consciousness. Sikhism must resist all advances to desecrate and destroys with subtle ploys its inner sanctum. We have bhangra halls for person wishing to express themselves physically in the form of dance. All things in their rightful place.
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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I had a conversation with a member of the Shia Muslim community at Islamfactor.org and
took the opportunity to share information between Shiaism and Sikhism.
At a point, she said, she's afraid to be influenced by Sikh thoughts because it might share
similarities between present Sufi practices which are out of line with mainstream Shiaism.
The video she showed to me about present day Sufism is this :-

CLICK TWICE ON THE VIDEO TO REDIRECT TO YOUTUBE.


YouTube - Dancin in a Mosque
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
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Eh mere Pyara Prabhu, Kaun tera rakhwala...

In times of torment, they bark at my heels saith the Brahm Giani
And life becomes a struggle that I not become as my tormentors.
On life’s journey, a path of roses and thorns alike
To whom should the tortured soul beseech, a silent plea
What has become of my devta’s, of holy men and sacred vows
When risen the hell of anarchism, all lament a torrent
Of emotional bile upon the heads of his Spirits in transit.

Who has brought my Lord so low, they show, and behold
The enemy is well contained within their throng, belongs
In name of tolerance, to whom should one lament. Spent the rage
Assuage all or God be damned into a fury of the devils concoction
To whom should one lament, when he himself is in torment.

With silent refrain, and an unspeakable disdain, we maintain
A composure of sorts, and with dignified silence, calm his raging seas.

Sufism is the intellectual branch of Islam. It has members of great intelligence, truth seekers of a brighter tomorrow, a higher purpose, of grander Lords. What depiction is this that so portrays and thus betrays its adherents so abominably possessed. In this Kalyug of fury evil hides behind smirking masks, whilst the good are set upon by a pernicious blast, to whom should we lament. He is dead said Nietzsche and we look about us and find no Gods on thrones but discrowned and dethroned, they roam as pilgrims and the tormented who once were the assemblage of the wise. A traversal of fortune as evil reigns, but why does it without hindrance, who allows such tyrants to smite the good, besiege the innocents and pillage the poor. Dispirited and cast afar from the roots and homelands they wander, helpless, we dare not peer closer, for what we may find, a God, a Father, a Lord so brought low, upon whom once bestowed great Love and adulation, tolerant of the evil, was overthrown by the same and now witches and devils rule, a demagoguery of a more frenzied purpose. One seeks to escape the net of deceit whilst the vultures feast upon his dying carcass, to whom should we lament, our anger spent in quiet desolation, a condemnation, a love turning sour, a peace that avows will again be won that wasn’t undone, and yet remains in search of its own soul. What is this, our fathers so furied, seeming so sullied, we run away into our darkness, lest we offend our own with woes too heavy to carry alone. It goes on ...

With a saddened heart ...
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Apologies. My point was the matter of equipoise, of spiritual equilibrium, of bani and kirtan being paths to the state of sahej.
Dancing may be a release in the appropriate place but has no bearing in matters of prayer.

Why not?

American churches sing loudly and dance and who are we to cast aspersions. I do not consider dancing around totem poles in a fit of elevated, excitable hysteria has any relevance to prayer, shabad or kirtan.

Why not? Does that mean it still shouldn't be done?

The Sikh prayer ritual of deep devotional peace and sobriety is extremely difficult to elaborate upon as it is near perfect. There is no desire for any Sikhs to need to frolic like dervishes or praying mantises.
Why not? Are we perfect? Have we found all ways to God?

Calm, composed and collected state of supreme and sublime consciousness. Sikhism must resist all advances to desecrate and destroys with subtle ploys its inner sanctum. We have bhangra halls for person wishing to express themselves physically in the form of dance. All things in their rightful place.
Bhangra halls is for doing bhangra not something spiritual.
Anyway, thanks for your input, next time make sure to explain why you think what you think.

(Bhenji I request you to use more simpler words so more people can understand your posts. Even I have trouble... Thanks)
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
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Bhagat Ji, The goal of each individual is to still his wandering mind, to master the will causing him to crave, need, want, to conquer all causal contributes to the workings and manifestations of his brain, mind and imagination. To be in a perfect state of equipoise. Dancing is a release for many, and in the right environment all well and good. Prayer and Kirtan is to gain control of one’s mind, will and action. To be able to be deeply relaxed, supremely silent, self disciplined and self controlled. Dervish sanding is undoubtedly aesthetically beautiful in its own right. It has no place in Kirtan because it works against the aforementioned principles.

You may argue dancing can be controlled, then I would refer you to yoga. The art of mastering body balance, suppleness and poise, whilst clearing chakra channels. Apart from this dancing has very little benefit to offer. Logistically I am right, you are at liberty to contend that you have a need to dance to Kirtan and that is your prerogative. I do not feel your personal need has any advantage towards assistant the sangat in the aforementioned former cause.

Some American churches sing and dance loudly causing an over excitability in people requiring a course of self disciple and acquired sobriety. If democracy is introduced to Sikhism, and the Bani is traversed to serve the community rather than submitting to the word of scriptures it will be a sad loss. It is a dark time for religion, where the mob seek to manipulate the sacred doctrine to the whims and wiles of the rabble. Worser things have happened as we witness the division and destruction of the instititution of the church. The Rhadoswami sect has over seventy percent of the Sikh congregation. If your views reflect the modernism creeping into Sikhism then it is indeed sad and tragic time for religion itself and Sikhism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYlk9EPVd0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sikhism.us%2Finterfaith-dialogues%2F23677-dancing-and-gurbani-6.html

**Addendum - By the same measure it can be construed the good Sikh ‘’dancing’’ in the Gurdwara is expressing himself, yet we know he has had demons cast into him, presumably by sorcerers, normal behaviour in some religions, and ignored by a congregation oblivious to a tormented man in their midst. That is the true face of religion. You pay your tithes and lip service and boast of your duty and good churchmanship, if trouble of ill fateedness befall you, God or man, there are few good samaritancs that will assist, and if they did, others would voice contempt, for they feel they have problems requiring greater attention of the masses. Thus humanity is destroyed and men becomes as existential beasts. Religion has become a tool to arm oneself with, and a mantle to adorn ones person. It is also a spiritual path under attack by those unwilling or unable to meet its exacting standard and wilfully seeking to dismantle its sanctum theretofore.***
 
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