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Dancing And Gurbani

(Read the main post first) Would you "dance" to kirtan? Explain.

  • Yes...

    Votes: 8 17.0%
  • No...

    Votes: 35 74.5%
  • I don't listen to kirtan...

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not sure...

    Votes: 5 10.6%

  • Total voters
    47

pk70

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Notice how at 2 minutes the guy got tired of dancing in his ras. I guess God's ras wears off while fully attuned to God. LOL People can present their cases all they like dancing to Gurbani is called duality.

Great video by the way. Just let it rock :rofl!!:

another reason they have nothing to do with Sikhism:)
 

spnadmin

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pk70 ji and singh ji, and jeetijohal ji

I don't think that Sikhism uses the term "pagan" but in the Jewish and many Christian churches, especially the Roman and the Orthodox Catholic churches, dancing is forbidden because it is considered a pagan ritual. Meaning that it is associated by their members with the worship of idols. I think that I carry traces of this thinking inside my head. Traces that are hard to get rid of. There are many attractive things about Sikhism. And one of them is that there are no idols and no rituals. The spiritual practices - simran, jap and kirtan - are reflective and the awareness is turned inward gradually as one looks for the Creator within.

Here I agree with Jeetijohal ji, To be able to be deeply relaxed, supremely silent, self disciplined and self controlled. Dervish sanding is undoubtedly aesthetically beautiful in its own right. It has no place in Kirtan because it works against the aforementioned principles.

Dancing is a distraction and takes up attention and energy, diverts it away from dhyann. Some may find this offensive, and I do not mean to offend. It is I think mostly about the way one envisions worship in the first place.
 

pk70

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Dancing is a distraction and takes up attention and energy, diverts it away from dhyann. Some may find this offensive, and I do not mean to offend. It is I think mostly about the way one envisions worship in the first place.(quote aad0002Ji)

Aad Jio,


Exactly. Classical Ragas are recommended for Shabad Kirtan to sooth the mind to go into stillness. In that situation, movement of head can occur but it has nothing to do with the known “dance”. As one gets deep into it, that movement of head also ceases. No wonder in Gurbani, no dance is recommended as Raagas are(as put by Aman singh ji earlier)
Guru ji takes physical dance to higher level of dance which is performed by the mind only, read ob please
ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ਵਾਜਾ ਮਤਿ ਪਖਾਵਜੁ ਭਾਉ ਹੋਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਏਹੋ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ਇਤੁ ਰੰਗਿ ਨਾਚਹੁ ਰਖਿ ਰਖਿ ਪਾਉ
Asa Measure. 1st Guru. Make intellect thy organ and love thy tambourine. By these joy and buoyant pleasure are ever produced in the mind. This is the devotional service and this the practice of penance. In this love, dance thou, beating time with thine feet.( Stay on right path in this state of mind)
ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਬੁੱਧਿ ਨੂੰ ਵਾਜਾ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਹੈ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਿਆਰ ਨੂੰ ਜੋੜੀ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਹੈ (ਇਹਨਾਂ ਸਾਜਾਂ ਦੇ ਵੱਜਣ ਨਾਲ, ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਬੁੱਧਿ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਪਿਆਰ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ) ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਸਦਾ ਆਨੰਦ ਬਣਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਉਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈਅਸਲ ਭਗਤੀ ਇਹੀ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਇਹੀ ਹੈ ਮਹਾਨ ਤਪਇਸ ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕੇ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ ਸਦਾ ਜੀਵਨ-ਰਸਤੇ ਉਤੇ ਤੁਰੋਬੱਸ! ਇਹ ਨਾਚ ਨੱਚੋ (ਰਾਸਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਨਾਚ ਨੱਚ ਕੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ-ਭਗਤੀ ਸਮਝਣਾ ਭੁਲੇਖਾ ਹੈ)
ਪੂਰੇ ਤਾਲ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਹੋਰੁ ਨਚਣਾ ਖੁਸੀਆ ਮਨ ਮਾਹ ਰਹਾਉ
Deem the praise of the Lord as thy beating time. Other dances produces sensuous pleasure in the mind. Pause.
ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਨੀ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ (ਜੀਵਨ-ਨਾਚ ਵਿਚ) ਤਾਲ-ਸਿਰ ਨੱਚਦਾ ਹੈ (ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਹੀ ਲੀਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਤੁਰਦਾ ਹੈ)। (ਰਾਸ ਆਦਿਕਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ-ਮੂਰਤੀ ਅੱਗੇ ਇਹ) ਹੋਰ ਹੋਰ ਨਾਚ ਇਹ ਨਿਰੀਆਂ ਮਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ੀਆਂ ਹਨ, ਮਨ ਦੇ ਚਾਉ ਹਨ (ਇਹ ਭਗਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ, ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਮਨ ਦੇ ਨਚਾਏ ਨੱਚਣਾ ਹੈ)ਰਹਾਉ
 

BhagatSingh

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ਮਨੂਆ ਨਾਚੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ
मनूआ नाचै भगति द्रिड़ाए ॥
Manū▫ā nācẖai bẖagaṯ driṛ▫ā▫e.
Channel your dancing mind in devotional worship,
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ
गुर कै सबदि मनै मनु मिलाए ॥
Gur kai sabaḏ manai man milā▫e.
and through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, merge your mind with the Supreme Mind.
ਸਚਾ ਤਾਲੁ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਏ ਸਬਦੇ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥
सचा तालु पूरे माइआ मोहु चुकाए सबदे निरति करावणिआ ॥३॥
Sacẖā ṯāl pūre mā▫i▫ā moh cẖukā▫e sabḏe niraṯ karāvaṇi▫ā. ||3||
Let your true and perfect tune be the subjugation of your love of Maya, and let yourself dance to the Shabad. ||3||

Page 121, Line 18 Guru Amar Das ji
 
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spnadmin

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Antonia ji, have you read my reply on page 4, posts 39 & 30?
Please share your thoughts on those.

Bhagat ji

Yes, I read them. And now have just re-read them. Really, this is the core of the discussion for me. The title before and after its change includes "Gurbani" -- so it is very hard for me to unify forms of meditation from other paths with Guru Nanak's simram, jap and kirtan in which the goal is to become centered and to obtain intuitive ease. This to me means settled, calm, still. What others do is their business. If the title had not included the idea of Gurbani, the thread would be different, would have evoked different reactions than it has so far.
 

pk70

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ਮਨੂਆ ਨਾਚੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ मनूआ नाचै भगति द्रिड़ाए ॥
Manū▫ā nāc
ai baga dri▫ā▫e.
Channel your dancing mind in devotional worship,

(Here mind is addressed not the body, and note it,dance is performed by the body
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ गुर कै सबदि मनै मनु मिलाए ॥
Gur kai saba
manai man milā▫e.
and through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, merge your mind with the Supreme Mind.

(Again the mind is to be imbued with the Lord, no mention of body movements)
ਸਚਾ ਤਾਲੁ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਏ ਸਬਦੇ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ सचा तालु पूरे माइआ मोहु चुकाए सबदे निरति करावणिआ ॥३॥
Sac
ā āl pūre mā▫i▫ā moh cukā▫e sabe nira karāvai▫ā. ||3||
Let your true and perfect tune be the subjugation of your love of Maya, and let yourself dance to the Shabad. ||3||

Here the rytham(TAAL) is not about physical but in an effort through which one becomes unattached to Maya, then it is about Guru Teaching(shabad) to put in practice and is the real dance as per Guru. Nothing is said in this Shabad about performing dance on Gurbani, when “taal=rytham” is to over come Maya, how it can be used as a tall of dance ?) One word doesn’t define the shabad, take the total meaning. Third Guru wouldn’t write contray to what First Guru has defined already. Here is another translation that makes more sense

ਮਨੂਆ ਨਾਚੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਸਚਾ ਤਾਲੁ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਏ ਸਬਦੇ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ
Fix thy dancing mind in the Lord's service, and by the Guru's instruction, attune thy mind with the Supreme mind. Make the stilling of love of mammon thy true and perfect tune and set thyself advancing to Gurbani.
ਮਨੂਆ = ਮਨਨਾਚੈ =ਨੱਚਦਾ ਹੈ, ਹੁਲਾਰੇ ਵਿਚ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈਮਨੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਾਈਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ, ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਰੋਕੀ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈਤਾਲੁ ਪੂਰੇ = ਰਾਗ ਤੇ ਜੋੜੀ ਦੇ ਵਜ਼ਨ ਦੇ ਨਾਲਰਲਾ ਕੇ ਹੱਥਾਂ ਦੀ ਤਾਲੀ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਪੈਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਚ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈਨਿਰਤਿ = ਨਾਚਸਬਦੇ = ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ

ਜਿਉਂਜਿਉਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਭਗਤੀ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ੍ਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਹੁਲਾਰੇ ਵਿਚ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਉਧਰ ਹੀ ਟਿਕਾਈ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ (ਬਾਹਰ ਭਟਕਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਾਈਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ)। (ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕੋਈ ਰਾਸਧਾਰੀਆ ਰਾਸ ਪਾਣ ਵੇਲੇ ਰਾਗ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਾਜ਼ਾਂ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲਕੇ ਨਾਚ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤਿਵੇਂ) ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਮਾਨੋ) ਸੱਚਾ ਨਾਚ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਜਦੋਂ ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇਅੰਦਰੋਂ) ਮਾਇਆ ਦਾ ਮੋਹ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜ ਕੇ ਉਹ (ਆਤਮਕ) ਨਾਚਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ
 

BhagatSingh

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[URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=124&english=t&id=5089#l5089"]Page 124, Line 19
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमुखि गावै गुरमुखि नाचै हरि सेती चितु लावणिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmukẖ gāvai gurmukẖ nācẖai har seṯī cẖiṯ lāvaṇi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Gurmukhs sing, the Gurmukhs dance, and focus their consciousness on the Lord. ||1||Pause||
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
[/URL]
Page 169, Line 15
ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਦਾਸ ਦਾਸ ਹਮ ਕੀਜੈ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਨਾਚੇ ॥੩॥
हरि के दास दास हम कीजै मनु निरति करे करि नाचे ॥३॥
Har ke ḏās ḏās ham kījai man niraṯ kare kar nācẖe. ||3||
Make me the slave of the Lord's slaves, so that my mind might dance in Your Love. ||3||
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 278, Line 1
ਜਿਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਨਚਾਵੈ ॥
जिउ प्रभ भावै तिवै नचावै ॥
Ji▫o parabẖ bẖāvai ṯivai nacẖāvai.
As it pleases God, they dance.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
(for this one I couldn't find the Pauri/Salok that contained that sentence. :confused:)

..........................
ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:
ਵਾਜਾ ਮਤਿ ਪਖਾਵਜੁ ਭਾਉ
वाजा मति पखावजु भाउ ॥
vājā maṯ pakẖāvaj bẖā▫o.
Make your intellect your instrument, and love your tambourine;
ਹੋਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ
होइ अनंदु सदा मनि चाउ ॥
Ho▫e anand saḏā man cẖā▫o.
thus bliss and lasting pleasure shall be produced in your mind.
ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਏਹੋ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ
एहा भगति एहो तप ताउ ॥
Ėhā bẖagaṯ eho ṯap ṯā▫o.
This is devotional worship, and this is the practice of penance.
ਇਤੁ ਰੰਗਿ ਨਾਚਹੁ ਰਖਿ ਰਖਿ ਪਾਉ ॥੧॥
इतु रंगि नाचहु रखि रखि पाउ ॥१॥
Iṯ rang nācẖahu rakẖ rakẖ pā▫o. ||1||
So dance in this love, and keep the beat with your feet. ||1||
................................ Page 350, Line 11 Guru Nanak Dev ji


Page 364, Line 16
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਭਾਉ ॥
गुरमुखि निरति हरि लागै भाउ ॥
Gurmukẖ niraṯ har lāgai bẖā▫o.
The Gurmukh's dance is to embrace love for the Lord;
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 506, Line 11
ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਹਿ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਚਹਿ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ॥
जो तुधु भावहि सेई नाचहि जिन गुरमुखि सबदि लिव लाए ॥
Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvėh se▫ī nācẖėh jin gurmukẖ sabaḏ liv lā▫e.
They alone dance, who are pleasing to You, and who, as Gurmukhs, embrace love for the Word of the Shabad.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 506, Line 13
ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ਅਰਥਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਲੋਕ ਨਾਚੇ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥
माइआ कै अरथि बहुतु लोक नाचे को विरला ततु बीचारी ॥
Mā▫i▫ā kai arath bahuṯ lok nācẖe ko virlā ṯaṯ bīcẖārī.
So many people dance for the sake of Maya; how rare are those who contemplate reality.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 1252, Line 16
ਆਪਹਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਆਪਹਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਆਪਿ ਬਜਾਵੈ ਤੂਰਾ ॥
आपहि गावै आपहि नाचै आपि बजावै तूरा ॥
Āpėh gāvai āpėh nācẖai āp bajāvai ṯūrā.
You Yourself sing, and You Yourself dance. You Yourself blow the bugle.
Devotee Namdev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok




Ok I am gona throw relevant tuks out there for you all, that may have something to do in favour of dancing.
 

BhagatSingh

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pkji try separating the tuk from your post. Its a jumble of words and colours. Being an artist jumbled up colours don't read so well... :(
Thanks!
 

BhagatSingh

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BTW no shabad in Gurbani says taht we should dance to kirtan and such. I know that bit. Also, there is no tuk that says we shouldn't.

Like Antonia ji mentioned, she likes to be still.
Sometimes one can't sit still. I don't think SGGS is against that.

Anyway, I like how things are being discussed. Good stuf!
 

pk70

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BTW no shabad in Gurbani says taht we should dance to kirtan and such. I know that bit. Also, there is no tuk that says we shouldn't.

Like Antonia ji mentioned, she likes to be still.
Sometimes one can't sit still. I don't think SGGS is against that.

Anyway, I like how things are being discussed. Good stuf!

We are back to a circle, good luck!
 

spnadmin

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bhagat ji

OK -- I have not yet seen a picture of sangat in worship -- neither of the modern variety, nor of the watercolor, etching, or pen and ink genre of the raj of Ranjit Singh from the 18th and 19th Century, nor of the Persian miniature style of the 16th and 17th Century -- in which Gursikhs were dancing around in the presence of any of our human Gurus or Guruji. The sole exception is the video of the kookay in the Rhadosoami shrine.

Close your eyes and try to envision sangat dancing around in the presence of Guru Amar Das ji, just as an experiment. I have tried this experiment and the images simply do not come to me. :)
 

BhagatSingh

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bhagat ji

OK -- I have not yet seen a picture of sangat in worship -- neither of the modern variety, nor of the watercolor, etching, or pen and ink genre of the raj of Ranjit Singh from the 18th and 19th Century, nor of the Persian miniature style of the 16th and 17th Century -- in which Gursikhs were dancing around in the presence of any of our human Gurus or Guruji. The sole exception is the video of the kookay in the Rhadosoami shrine.

Close your eyes and try to envision sangat dancing around in the presence of Guru Amar Das ji, just as an experiment. I have tried this experiment and the images simply do not come to me. :)
Antonia ji in those time, dance was used completely as entertainment and mostly by women. You would find them in courts entertaining kings and guests. These women would be considered sluts almost. So of course, you don't see that image forming.

We know now that dancing is a expression whose purpose is not limited to entertainment.
 

spnadmin

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Bhagat ji

No so! Bhangra was traditionally a folk dance danced by men, and women had their own dances. These dances were village traditions to celebrate betrothals, pre-wedding celebrations, and celebrations bringing the new wife to her husband's family. There were castes of theatrical dancers who were male-transvestites who also performed at village celebrations on the outskirts of town so that women and children would not see them. There was/is the devadasi system of temple dancers, who indeed were and are prostitutes, but in temples not courts. Just a sample.

Some of the dances listed below have origins in the ancient past where nature's forces were worshiped at times when these dances were performed by the folk of various regions. My source is Wikipedia on this one, but there are many interesting Internet sites.

1 Bardo Chham (Arunchal Pradesh)
2 Bhangra (Punjab)
3 Chang Lo (or) Sua Lua (Nagaland)
4 Charkula (Madhya Pradesh)
5 Cheraw Dance (Mizoram)
6 Dalkai (Orissa)
7 Devarattam (Tamil Nadu)
8 Dol cholam (Manipur)
9 Dollu Kunitha (Karnataka)
10 Dumhal (Kashmir)
11 Garadi (Pondicherry)
12 Garba (Gujarat)
13 Ghoomar (Rajasthan, Haryana)
14 Goti Pua (Orissa)
15 Hojagiri (Tripura)
16 Jawara (Madhya Pradesh)
17 Kalbelia (Rajasthan)
18 Kamandi or Kaman Pandigai (Tamilnadu)
19 Karma/Munda (Bihar)
20 Kinnauri Nati (Himachal Pradesh)
21 Koli (Goa)
22 Kolattam (Tamilnadu)
23 Kummi (Tamil Nadu)
24 Lava (Lakshwadeep)
25 Mayil Attam or Pea{censored} dance (Tamilnadu)
26 Namgen (Himachal Pradesh)
27 Nicobarese dances (Andaman and Nicobar Islands)
28 Padayani (Kerala)
29 Padhar (Gujarat)
30 Panthi (Chhattisgarh)
31 Pavri Nach (Maharashtra)
32 Poikal Kudirai Attam (Tamil Nadu)
33 Raas (Gujarat)
34 Raut Nacha (Chhattisgarh)
35 Ruk Mar Nacha (& Chhau dance) (Orissa)
36 Singhi Chham (Sikkim)
37 Spaw (Ladhakh)
38 Tarangmel (Goa)
39 Tertali (Madhya Pradesh)
40 Thang Ta (Manipur)
41 Thapetta Gullu (Andhra Pradesh)
42 Theru Koothu (Tamilnadu)
43 Yakshagana (Karnataka)
 
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