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"Dasam" Granth - A Look At The Core Problems

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Harkiran Kaur

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Tejwant Ji,

1. Did any of our Gurus call themselves Patshais?
If they did so, I have never come across any writing where they did.

2. What does Patshah/i mean in SGGS, our only Guru?
It means King. Contrary to thinking of himself as a 'King' Guru Nanak Dev Ji actually called himself a 'servant' of God.

3. When Guru Gobind Singh added his Dad's Gurbani to the SGGS, he ended each shabad with Nanak as per norms of SGGS used by the previous Gurus, did he use Nanak anywhere in the so called DG? Why defy the norms as One Jyot?
Very good question. Much of DG is signed instead by Raam and Shyaam (the names of which were known to be court poets)

4. If Guru Gobind Singh ji did not mention anything about his poetry anywhere, are we so arrogant to second guess our 10th Guru?
Nope! He didn't mention it when he passed Guruship to SGGSJ and told us to not have ANY other Guru. Since SGGSJ DOES say that "Bani Guru, Guru hai Bani" Meaning that when he told us to have NO OTHER Guru, and he explicitly proclaimed SGGSJ as Guru... we are to have no other. He didn't mention any writings of his own in his 52 Hukams either and even the 52 Hukams are in their own debate of authenticity too)

5. How dare we declare what is written and not by Guru Gobind Singh ji when he himself did not indicate anything of that sort?
We can't... the supposed 'proof' is all here say letters from others, books written long after Guru Ji left this world. There is nothing from Guru Ji himself to suggest that DG is his work.

Please ponder and respond.
I have thanks :)
 

Original

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Good morning Everyone,

Having scanned much of what has been written so far, I'm drawn to question how much of it is susceptible to rational deliberation and how seriously am I to take the testimony on face value? Lots of people like Kully Ji and Harkiran Ji advance arguments for and against such claims and counterclaims without being able to find conclusive grounds. That leads many other intelligent and reasonable people to a conclusion that there isn't any conclusive argument for or against the authenticity of the text in question.

Theoretically, the first point a historian must establish about any primary source is its authenticity. Given the length and breadth of the arguments to hand, I'm at a loss to reconcile why the appropriate authorities [presumeably, SGPC] didn't instruct a handwriting expert to determine its authenticity. Equally, I'm mindful that those matters must have been considered and rejected for the good reason that they were unlikely to yield any credible conclusion and therefore the expense and trouble caused in adopting such suggestions were disproportionate to the task at hand and unduly exacerbating to Sikh society at large.
.

Accordingly, I summarily conclude that there is no substantative foundation for the efficacy of such claims and counterclaims. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is not at par with Sri Guru Granth Sahib for ideological and theoretical reasoning and any such comparisons or propositions to the contrary must be dismissed on grounds illogical.

I reserve the right for further say until such time I'm called to explain.

Good day !
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Good morning Everyone,

Having scanned much of what has been written so far, I'm drawn to question how much of it is susceptible to rational deliberation and how seriously am I to take the testimony on face value? Lots of people like Kully Ji and Harkiran Ji advance arguments for and against such claims and counterclaims without being able to find conclusive grounds. That leads many other intelligent and reasonable people to a conclusion that there isn't any conclusive argument for or against the authenticity of the text in question.

Theoretically, the first point a historian must establish about any primary source is its authenticity. Given the length and breadth of the arguments to hand, I'm at a loss to reconcile why the appropriate authorities [presumeably, SGPC] didn't instruct a handwriting expert to determine its authenticity. Equally, I'm mindful that those matters must have been considered and rejected for the good reason that they were unlikely to yield any credible conclusion and therefore the expense and trouble caused in adopting such suggestions were disproportionate to the task at hand and unduly exacerbating to Sikh society at large.
.

Accordingly, I summarily conclude that there is no substantative foundation for the efficacy of such claims and counterclaims. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is not at par with Sri Guru Granth Sahib for ideological and theoretical reasoning and any such comparisons or propositions to the contrary must be dismissed on grounds illogical.

I reserve the right for further say until such time I'm called to explain.

Good day !

Original Ji thanks for jumping in. I do want to say that there has been study done not on the handwriting per say but on the language usage which showed at the very least that the DG as a whole was not written by the same person, but numerous persons. I will try to find it again and post here.
 

Kully

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1. Did any of our Gurus call themselves Patshais?

I don't know if the Guru's called themselves Patshahi, but the Bhatts certainly called them Patshahi's in their bani in SGGS, as did Bhai Gurdas.

Now whether this would make any difference I don't know, but did the Guru's refer to themselves as Mahalla's ? I haven't seen anywhere so far that they did, but would welcome any response from someone who knows more.

2. What does Patshah/i mean in SGGS, our only Guru?

Patshah/Badshah/Pasha are all the same Persian word spoken differently by different peoples but with the same meaning "King/Ruler".


3. When Guru Gobind Singh added his Dad's Gurbani to the SGGS, he ended each shabad with Nanak as per norms of SGGS used by the previous Gurus, did he use Nanak anywhere in the so called DG? Why defy the norms as One Jyot?

When Guru Ji added 9th Guru's bani to Aad Granth, the bani was already written, so there is no question of Guru Gobind Singh Ji adding "Nanak" to the words of 9th Guru.


Now as to using "Nanak" in the DG compositions, it would certainly be a viable question if the scriptures were written with the same intention. But then one would have to question, if one already exists, why write another one that is the same? The name Nanak does come up a few times in DG but in a historical perspective.

Tejwant Ji, you have asked a question about defying the norms. Some people stated that Guru Nanak could not be considered as a Guru because he was "Grihasti". Some people state that Guru HarGobind Sahib defied the norms of Sikhi, when Guru Ji introduced Miri-Piri to Gurmat. And then some people also say that GuruGobind Singh Ji defied the norms when charan pahul was ended and Khande ki pahul was started.

Defying norms is what the Guru's were about. Eating with low-castes, saying that women are not inferior to men, all men are born of one light etc. These were all defiances, so if Guru Gobind Singh wrote a Granth which didn't end in Nanak in the concluding lines, it's not enough on it's own to say Guru's were one jyot but one did something different.



4. If Guru Gobind Singh ji did not mention anything about his poetry anywhere, are we so arrogant to second guess our 10th Guru?

Yes, I would be so arrogant if I did second guess my Guru, and I guess you would be as well.

But I would definitely not say that Bhai Mani Singh was arrogant, or the other Sikhs who wrote the sp{censored} literature that we have today, which supports totally the fact that Guru Gobind Singh wrote a lot of poetry and also a granth.


5. How dare we declare what is written and not by Guru Gobind Singh ji when he himself did not indicate anything of that sort?

Yes I would not dare to say that anything is written/not-written by Guru Sahib. i would just look at the information in front of me without making any judgements.

How can we know that Guru Granth Sahib was given gurgaddi? Where has Guru Gobind Singh written, not said, "sabh sikhan ko hukam hai, guru maneyo granth" to Guru Sahib?

Where has Guru Gobind Singh written, not said, that taking khande ki pahul is important or what the procedure for preparing khande ki pahul is?
 

Kully

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How would Hindu group in the 1800s attempt to woo Sikhs back to Hinduism with lines like this from DG?

ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਉਬਾਰ ਨ ਸਕਿ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕਰ ਨਾਮ ਰਟੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸੂਰਹ ਸਸਿ ਤੇ ਬਸਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਹੈ ॥

or

ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਯੋ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥


Harkiran Ji, any response to this post from a few days ago. I notice you have responded to more recent posts. Maybe you overlooked this one? Would appreciate your thoughts on it.


1. What is the setting/background to Charitropakhyan?

2, Who are the main characters in the text?

Because you have read the complete text of Charitropakhyan, you already have a head start on me, so I will ask you to respond to the above questions first.

And this post as well. Would appreciate your thoughts on it.

Much of DG is signed instead by Raam and Shyaam (the names of which were known to be court poets)

Harkiran Ji, could you tell us what text of the DG is signed by Raam and Shaam?

Excluding the Charitropkahyan as the evidence we have so far tells us that Guru Sahib is the author. But I would be interested to know more on what you have said.

And also please respond to my posts above.
 

Kully

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Given the length and breadth of the arguments to hand, I'm at a loss to reconcile why the appropriate authorities [presumeably, SGPC] didn't instruct a handwriting expert to determine its authenticity.

Original Ji, the SGPC is a product of the Singh Sabha Lehar. During the second phase of their lehar they focused on removing anything resembling "hindu" from sikhism. the SGPC were (greatly, but not in whole) ignorant about the content and value of DG, which is why they removed it from Sri Akal Takht Sahib, and have been reducing it's status in the panth since. They certainly are not the people to test the authenticity of this granth.

Now concerning handwriting as a measure of authenticity. There were many scribes in Guru Ji's court, who would all have written parts/complete parts of texts. So I can't see that it would lead to any kind of conclusivity.

I do want to say that there has been study done not on the handwriting per say but on the language usage which showed at the very least that the DG as a whole was not written by the same person, but numerous persons. I will try to find it again and post here.

Harkiran ji, don't post such views unless you have the information on hand. Otherwise it just makes you look like you have no information at all. Please gather your sources and then make the statement with the evidence. Then we can all learn from it.

I am still waiting for the 1973 hukmnama on DG that you said you would get for us.
 

Kully

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We can't... the supposed 'proof' is all here say letters from others, books written long after Guru Ji left this world.

Please refer to the same questions I asked Tejwant Ji, about SGGS and khande ki pahul etc. I would appreciate your thoughts on those.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Original Ji, the SGPC is a product of the Singh Sabha Lehar. During the second phase of their lehar they focused on removing anything resembling "hindu" from sikhism. the SGPC were (greatly, but not in whole) ignorant about the content and value of DG, which is why they removed it from Sri Akal Takht Sahib, and have been reducing it's status in the panth since. They certainly are not the people to test the authenticity of this granth.

Now concerning handwriting as a measure of authenticity. There were many scribes in Guru Ji's court, who would all have written parts/complete parts of texts. So I can't see that it would lead to any kind of conclusivity.



Harkiran ji, don't post such views unless you have the information on hand. Otherwise it just makes you look like you have no information at all. Please gather your sources and then make the statement with the evidence. Then we can all learn from it.

I am still waiting for the 1973 hukmnama on DG that you said you would get for us.


Here is what I could find on the 1973 Hukamnama sanctioned by commander of Akal Takht, head granthi of Golden Temple and others:

Quoted:

"In the early 1970s, Santokh Singh (a Sikh scholar) from Chandigarh wrote a letter to the Shromani Gurudwara Parbandak Committee (S.G.P.C.) quering the authenticity of the Dasam Granth as being of Guru Gobind Singh ji's hand.

On 3rd August 1973, he received a reply from the S.G.P.C. stating: ‘Chritter Pkhyan which are entered in the Dasam Granth, they are not the work of Guru Gobind Singh ji. They are ancient mythological stories of Hinduism.’(‘Dasam Granth Bareh Chonveh Lekh’ by Principle Harbhajan Singh, P.122-123)

The above reply was sanctioned by the then S.G.P.C. Jathedar (commander) of the Akal Takht, Sadhu Singh Bhaura, Chet Singh (Head Granthi of Golden Temple), Kirpal Singh Granthi and Sohan Singh (Granthi of Golden Temple)."


Source : sikhiwiki

----

Will look for the other one in a bit (the study done on the language aspect of DG) when I get home.

Also you are claiming there is a big hidden deep meaning in the charitars, however Bhai Mani Singh Ji did not think so. He said they were straight out moral messages designed to keep (men) from falling into 'women's machinations'. (So Bhai Mani Singh Ji, says that Charitropakhyan IS a message directly about the - negative - character of 'women'. Meaning yes, these tales ARE denigrating to women.

Also you didn't answer when I asked you, if the 'woman' in the stories is just some symbolism for 'Maya' (like some suggest) then please show how that is not still degrading to women? Because for a metaphor or symbolism to work in an allegory (story designed to impart some deeper message rather than the main message) then there has to be an agreed upon symbolism there to begin with. Meaning that women were already being associated with deceit / trickery / immorality in order for the metaphor to work! So even if you try to say that the woman is merely symbolism of something deeper (in this case Maya = illusion, deceit, trickery, obstacle to one's spiritual path, enticement, kaam etc) then you are automatically associating women with those things anyway, in order for your 'symbolism' to even work!
 
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Kully

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Here is what I could find on the 1973 Hukamnama sanctioned by commander of Akal Takht, head granthi of Golden Temple and others:

So was it a hukumnama because that webage says it was just a reply from the SGPC jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib?

History
In the early 1970s, Santokh Singh (a Sikh scholar) from Chandigarh wrote a letter to the Shromani Gurudwara Parbandak Committee (S.G.P.C.) quering the authenticity of the Dasam Granth as being of Guru Gobind Singh ji's hand.

On 3rd August 1973, he received a reply from the S.G.P.C stating:‘Chritter Pkhyan which are entered in the Dasam Granth, they are not the work of Guru Gobind Singh. They are ancient mythological stories of Hinduism.’(‘Dasam Granth Bareh Chonveh Lekh’ by Principle Harbhajan Singh, P.122-123)

The above reply was sanctioned by the then S.G.P.C. Jathedar (commander) of the Akal Takht, Sadhu Singh Bhaura, Chet Singh (Head Granthi of Golden Temple), Kirpal Singh Granthi and Sohan Singh (Granthi of Golden Temple).

Yet these same individuals did not take into consideration that within their daily liturgy of prayers, and, within the Khalsa initiation ceremony, they actualy employ scripture from Treh Chritter ('Kabio Bach Benanti Chaupee Sahib').

The composition commonly referred to as 'Chaupee Sahib' amongst mainstream Sikhs is actually the conclusion to the 'Treh Charittar'.

Source : sikhiwiki
 

Harkiran Kaur

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So was it a hukumnama because that webage says it was just a reply from the SGPC jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib?

History
In the early 1970s, Santokh Singh (a Sikh scholar) from Chandigarh wrote a letter to the Shromani Gurudwara Parbandak Committee (S.G.P.C.) quering the authenticity of the Dasam Granth as being of Guru Gobind Singh ji's hand.

On 3rd August 1973, he received a reply from the S.G.P.C stating:‘Chritter Pkhyan which are entered in the Dasam Granth, they are not the work of Guru Gobind Singh. They are ancient mythological stories of Hinduism.’(‘Dasam Granth Bareh Chonveh Lekh’ by Principle Harbhajan Singh, P.122-123)

The above reply was sanctioned by the then S.G.P.C. Jathedar (commander) of the Akal Takht, Sadhu Singh Bhaura, Chet Singh (Head Granthi of Golden Temple), Kirpal Singh Granthi and Sohan Singh (Granthi of Golden Temple).

Yet these same individuals did not take into consideration that within their daily liturgy of prayers, and, within the Khalsa initiation ceremony, they actualy employ scripture from Treh Chritter ('Kabio Bach Benanti Chaupee Sahib').

The composition commonly referred to as 'Chaupee Sahib' amongst mainstream Sikhs is actually the conclusion to the 'Treh Charittar'.

Source : sikhiwiki

Yes it was sanctioned as a hukamnama (though the above doesn't explicitly say it. The reply was sanctioned as a hukamnama. I used to have a copy of the original but I can't find it. But the above quote from Sikhi Wikki is true.

And since several scholars, and high ranking granthis and Jathedar Akal Takht were involved, I tend to lend some credence in their decision!

As for Benti Chaupai, I explained before Benti Chaupai actually seems like an entirely different composition - it doesn't seem to flow with the rest of Charitropakhyan story line (the King and his minister advisor telling him how we women are all evil and cant ever be trusted). That epic ends at charitar # 403 - and so Benti Chaupai seems to not even be related to the 'tales of women' anyway.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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It was Akal Takht that issued it... not SGPC

Here is an article published in The Sikh Bulletin in 2003 which highlights MUCH of the issues.


The Dasam Granth And The Sikh Consciousness
The Sikh Bulletin mwiG 534 January 2003
The Sikh Center Roseville, 201 Berkeley Ave, Roseville, CA. 95678 14
http://sikhbulletin.com/Bulletins/Bulletin_1_2003.pdf (starts on page 12)


While talking of the ‘dasamgranth’, which has been steeped

in controversy ever since its inception one is treading on

slippery soil. It was more slippery a decade ago, before the

Institute of Sikh Studies (IOSS) commenced its enquiry into

its mystique. Even though fortified by the hard work of the

founders of the IOSS, one can never be too responsible while

discussing this particular matter. Restraint has to be the

watchword. In concrete terms this means taking up only

those concepts for discussion, which have evolved as a result

of the discussion of centuries and which are widely accepted

as true and unassailable. This category could legitimately

include those arguments regarding its contents, which are

logically sustainable. These have been presented wisely and

at length in a number of volumes by a true gursikh

Gurbakhsh Singh of Kala Afghana. His humility is

limitless and his logic is as unassailable as his deep faith in

the Guru (which today means the Gurbani) is unfathomable.

As a measure of abundant precaution, these wholesome and

very valid arguments are not being made a part of today’s

discussion.

Of the many tricks played upon the Sikh consciousness by

history, the most enduring has been the legacy of the socalled

dasamgranth. There are no nine books that precede

it; it is not the book of the Tenth (Dasam) King. Though

attributed, very cleverly to the Tenth Master, there is not a

single composition in it, which bears his name. This is in

stark contrast to Guru Granth, which clearly bears the ‘guru

imprint’ in the form of the name Nanak. This reality is as

old as Sikh theology itself. Authorship of every verse is

clearly indicated to the extent that Nanak is perhaps the

most common proper noun and the most commonly used of

words in the entire Guru Granth. In the ‘dasamgranth’ it

occurs absolutely nowhere with the implication of

authorship. Names of the authors, which occur in it, are

‘Ram, Shyam, Kaal, Raj, Nanua’ and such others.

Strangely, even after these poets are located and made

known, it is assumed by the ignorantly devout that these are

still the pseudonyms of the Tenth King. It is totally

disregarded that no other Guru before him bothered to adopt

any pseudonym and all called themselves Nanak. Apart

from being doctrinally correct in the context of the Sikh

concept of guruship, this truth is historically verifiable and

is asserted by contemporary historians like Mohsan Fani,

Bhai Gurdas, the celebrated bards of the Guru Granth and

Bhai Mani Singh. Nobody tries to explain to us how, when

and why the Tenth King abandoned the tradition of two and

a quarter centuries and nine predecessors, refused to call

himself Nanak and why in complete reversal of this

hallowed tradition he adopted strange pseudonyms. The

best that our scholars have been able to muster is that the

Mata was shy of calling him Gobind because his

grandfather’s name was Hargobind. Being only an

explanation, the mock modesty theory has no history and

surfaces in the middle of the twentieth century, a decade

after British de-colonization. It also holds no clue to why

Mataji named him Gobind to begin with. There is also no

elaboration of the process by which words of endearment

used by the exalted mother came to be converted into

pseudonyms. This is a rare occurrence in Indian literature

where pet names have been transformed into pseudonyms.

No attempt is also made to explain why the Guru had to

adopt half a dozen of them when all medieval and modern

poets could do with one. For Rumi, Hafiz, Shirazi,

Firadausi, coming right down to Zauq, Ghalib, Zafar, Naaz,

Mahir, Diwana, Tir, Bhaia, Safeer, and Mirgind only one

pseudonym was considered sufficient. One also sufficed

wherever else the tradition was in vogue.

The name of the granth itself has a history of sorts. To begin

with it was in the form of separate books and had no

collective name. Mercifully, even the most diehard of

dasamgranth fans admits this as true. When put together in

one volume around 1748 CE or so, it was christened

Bachittar-natak-granth. This was quite logical also.

According to an estimate, eight times in the chandichariter,

its name is given as Bachittar-natak-granth.The author of the

Krishanavtar uses the same nomenclature for the book no

less than sixty-seven times and the Ramavtar nineteen times.

In spite of it the real title of the granth is changed so as to

facilitate its attribution to the Tenth King. Overwhelming

and oft-repeated internal evidence is completely disregarded

and variety of scholars and motley of believers maintain the

fiction that it is actually named after the Tenth Nanak.

More needs to be said about the name of the granth of which

some people are greatly enamored. As time passed it came

to be successively and variously called Bachittar-natakgranth,

dasween patshah ka granth, dasamgranth, dasam

granth sahib, eventually evolving into dasam Sri Guru

Granth Sahib by the courtesy of booksellers doing

business in Bazaar Mai Sewan of Amritsar. In the latest

incarnation, the word dasam is printed in very small print and

for all intents and purposes it is the rest, that is ‘Sri Guru

Granth Sahib’, by clever and mean deception. Shakespeare

would have been shocked to realize what all is there in a

name and only in a name. What fragrance a wild bush flower

can come to acquire when it is named a rose! This granth

came to acquire prestige and reputation that is wholly and

solely traceable to its name being associated with the Tenth

King. The name arouses passions even today. Those who

have not read a word of it are the most insistent that it

must be regarded as the composition of the Tenth Guru.

The title and the widely prevalent ignorance about its

contents are the potent sources of its veneration amongst

a couple of Sikh sects, at Hazur Sahib and Patna Sahib.

The main inspiration of undue veneration is also traceable to

the utter neglect of the Sikh doctrine by its true custodian, the

Khalsa. It can equally be blamed on the failure of the Sikh

intellectuals to call a spade a spade and can be traced to the

covert encouragement of those who maintain the controllers

of Sikh affairs in power in regions far away from the Punjab

(now also in the Punjab). It is not strange that nearer

home and in the recent past, those who revere this granth

also constructed the destroyed Akal Takhat in defiance of

the people’s will. Generally, these very people support

the most Hindu of all organizations at elections and are

perceived to be the vanguard of re-assimilation process -

the blue-eyed baby of Hindutava forces.

At no time the authorship of the charitropakhyan part of this

granth was attributed to the Guru except in a crudely forged

document, which could not stand even a cursory scholarly

scrutiny. Several times, eminent scholars have confirmed

this assessment. Once even the Akal Takhat has decreed

that the Guru has not written it. That needed no learning or

sensational dedication, for the author’s name is mentioned

in chariter number 195 as Kaal. This portion consists of

923 pages of a recension having 2276 pages in all. Another

494 pages are in honor of Krishanavtar authorship of which

is claimed by a poet named Shyam. Thus according to

internal evidence, the authorship of 2205 pages is claimed

by poets known to history. The rest of the seventy-one

pages mention no clues to authorship and are widely

accepted as the genuine writings of the guru. This is an

exceptional case in literature where a book is named after a

person to whom only seventy-one pages of it are attributable

(with a few reservations) and the 2205 cannot be. Others,

who have superior claims by the sheer bulk of their

contribution, are completely ignored.

Of these seventy-one pages the Guru’s authorship is

regarded as certain, except for the four notorious verses.

There is also unanimity about the status of the Guru’s

compositions included in the dasamgranth. It is recorded

by a fairly reliable (for this purpose) sources that some

Sikhs approached the Guru with a request to include his

bani in the Guru Granth. They were told that it was to be

retained in a separate volume and was not to be treated at

par with the bani of the Guru Granth. He twice confirmed

the doctrine again by very fundamental decisions that he

took later. Around 1697 CE he had the final version of the

Guru Granth prepared. In this volume, he included the bani

of the Ninth King and not his own. Both decisions indicate

that he consciously and deliberately did not claim a

status equal to the Gurbani for his writings. He

eventually put the seal of finality on his decision by

conferring the status of Guru on the Granth from which his

bani was excluded. Thus he settled for all time to come

and made it an article of faith for his Sikhs that his own

utterances were irrelevant to the Sikh canon, which

comprised of the Guru Granth and the Guru Granth

alone. In defiance of his own command, we have gone to

the extent of conferring high reverential status on even the

poetry which preached antagonistic doctrines or which is

purely hedonistic in character but is included in the same

volume by some sinister scribe.

A careful study of dasamgranth has yielded that the desire

to stultify and destroy the absolutely pure and spiritually

edifying image of the Tenth King is the main motivation

behind its creation. The ultimate aim being the dismantling

of the wholly ameliorating spiritual order erected by the

striving of the Ten Masters and manifested by the

martyrdom of tens of thousands of the purest minded, the

most motivated and the most devoted of Sikhs. All this is

absolutely clear from the spate of books that have emerged

on the subject during the last few decades. Yet when

objective analysis of the ‘dasamgranth’ is proposed to be

undertaken, those who protest most vociferously are the

very persons who consider themselves to be good Sikhs.

These ‘good Sikhs’ try to break their own fall on the cushion

of wishful nomenclatures. They seem to believe that rough

granite will become soft and comfortable once they decide to

call it a pillow. For them dictionaries and the context in

which the words are used have no meaning and they assume

the absolute sovereign right to assign vastly different

connotations to proper nouns although neither the words nor

the context permits such use. ‘Shiva’ when used in a

particular verse for them is One Supreme Lord, although the

word is used six or seven times more in the same

chandichariter (ukat bilas) and every time it connotes the

Devi Chandi. Yet it is insisted that when it is used once

again in the popular verse (number 231) it means Akal

Purakh. The words Mahakal and Bhagauti are also similarly

misinterpreted to read convenient meanings in them. How

great a blind spot the dasamgranth can be becomes

apparent when kabiovach benti chaupai, a part of the

charitropakhyan is recited as part of the evening prayer

although the Akal Takhat accepts Chritropakhyan

composition to be no part of the Guru’s bani.

The Institute of Sikh Studies has been patiently analyzing the

various aspects of this work and has been promoting its

proper understanding for almost a decade now. It has ever

sought the promotion of a scholarly debate on the issue of

authorship. And yet when the issue breaks into the

headlines of the motivated Press, we are invariably asked

to be patient, to not to rush matters and to try and work

out a consensus. The very attempts made for arriving at a

consensus are criticized as ‘impositions’ on the entire panth

by one organization. Counsel of patience and of working out

a consensus itself is nothing new: it has been suggested for

centuries and periodically extended without any follow up.

It has become a euphemism for indefinite postponement

and for no action ever. Perhaps things will change now

because, besides the Institute of Sikh Studies, the Akal

Takhat and the World Sikh Council, the two premier Sikh

institutions are both urgently and seriously seized of the

matter.
 

Kully

SPNer
Jan 3, 2016
273
25
It was Akal Takht that issued it... not SGPC

The article very clearly says that the SGPC issued it. It is even purported to be signed by a head granthi.

before the

Institute of Sikh Studies (IOSS) commenced its enquiry into

its mystique.

The IOSS is out of it's depth when it comes to Sikh philosophy. I have several of their books, which are ok-ish concerning general sikh history but quite laughable whenh talking about Gurbani.


These have been presented wisely and

at length in a number of volumes by a true gursikh

Gurbakhsh Singh of Kala Afghana. His humility is

limitless and his logic is as unassailable as his deep faith in

the Guru (which today means the Gurbani) is unfathomable.

Gurbaksh Singh the rapist? Humility? Logic? Deep faith?



Harkiran Ji, I am still waiting for an answer for these questions from you:

1. What is the setting/background to Charitropakhyan?

2, Who are the main characters in the text?

Because you have read the complete text of Charitropakhyan, you already have a head start on me, so I will ask you to respond to the above questions first.

Harkiran Ji, could you tell us what text of the DG is signed by Raam and Shaam?
 

Kully

SPNer
Jan 3, 2016
273
25
Harkiran Ji, I am still waiting for an answer for these questions from you:

1. What is the setting/background to Charitropakhyan?

2, Who are the main characters in the text?

Because you have read the complete text of Charitropakhyan, you already have a head start on me, so I will ask you to respond to the above questions first.

Harkiran Ji, could you tell us what text of the DG is signed by Raam and Shaam?


Harkiran Ji, in the interests of maintaining clarity in this discussion, rather than bring more questions into, try to respond to questions posed. That way we can clear up issues in turn. What you are doing is just adding to discussion without there being any kind of result to questions asked or posed.

Please start with the above. I have been very forthcoming with any and every question you have asked. Please start to afford my questions the same respect.
 

Kully

SPNer
Jan 3, 2016
273
25
Of the many tricks played upon the Sikh consciousness by

history, the most enduring has been the legacy of the socalled

dasamgranth. There are no nine books that precede

it;

And to think this organisation calls itself an institute of Sikh studies.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
55
Harry Ji, it's only at odds with Gurbani if we start to worship these devi devte thinking that we will get mukti from them. Recognising that they exist is not the same.

Here are two lines from japji Sahib concerning devi devtas:

ਆਖਹਿ ਦਾਨਵ ਆਖਹਿ ਦੇਵ ॥
The demons speak, the demi-gods speak.

and

ਕੇਤੇ ਸਿਧ ਬੁਧ ਨਾਥ ਕੇਤੇ ਕੇਤੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਵੇਸ ॥
So many Siddhas and Buddhas, so many Yogic masters. So many goddesses of various kinds.

ਕੇਤੇ ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨਵ ਮੁਨਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਤਨ ਸਮੁੰਦ ॥
So many demi-gods and demons, so many silent sages. So many oceans of jewels.

I personally feel you are taking this at a very basic level and out of context to boot. A god is normally worshipped, if you recognise the existence of devi devte, then by default you should worship them. Are you saying they actually existed?
 

Original

Writer
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Jan 9, 2011
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London UK
Harkiran Kaur Ji

Thank you for keeping us all posted with interesting reads, but I must confess, I can't handle that kind of literature - sorry ! Prima facie, it is without foundation, wholly unsubstantiated and purely speculative propaganda. Conversely, I concur with the following extract, which you've provided - many thanks:

In the years after the passing of Guru Gobind Singh, the
Sikhs were engaged in battles and struggles, due to which
they could not prepare the Dasam Granth in proper form.
With the beginning of the Singh Sabha movement in the late
nineteenth century, scholars directed toward the religious
scriptures and Sikh history. The Gurmat Granth Parcharak
Sabha Amritsar collected 32 copies of the Dasam Granth.
After five years of deliberations in the second floor of Sri
Akal Takht, Amritsar, these eminent scholars clarified the
differences in the birs and published their report in 1897
A.D. In accordance with that report, the present form of the

Dasam Granth came into existence. The banis included in it
are as follows:
Jaap
Akal Ustat
Bachittar Natak
Chandi Charitra
Chandi Charitra II
War Bhagauti Ji Ki
Giyan Prabodh
Chaubis Avtar (incarnations of Lord Vishnu)
Up Avtar (Brahma and Rudr)
Shabd Hazare
Swaiye
Khalsa Mehma
Shashtar Nam Mala
Charitropakhiyan
Zafarnama, Hikayat


In the above report, Giani Sardul Singh the scholar who was
charged with writing the committee report, agreed that the
whole Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind Singh, and
all doubts were ended.


It was Bhai Mani Singh who after some 26 years of Guru Sahib's departure managed to compile the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - and it is all authentic -

As regards the text in question, Guru Gobind Singh needed real life characters [mythological] to instil performance virtues to best reflect and improvise some of the latent human characteristics necessary to defeat the enemy. What does he do ? He choses characters for describing the scenes of battles in his poetic endeavours to depict as heroes and heroines of war and worship. Instead of imaginary characters he preferred to choose the mythological characters from the ancient Indian texts that were known to the local folk. The objective was to forge from the fire of the forgotten people [slaves] the invincible Spartans. And, he did, magnificently. Eve [woman]was central as an austerity measure, purely for self-discipline, no woman no cry philosophy.

Gobind meant business, none of this lovey-dovey stuff full stop !

Group psyche was fundamental, self-discipline, self-alienation and austere measures were necessary. The literal degradation [note, not physical or spiritual] of women in that regard worked wonders, which kept warrior Sikhs focused with the task to hand. That kind of harmony was only possible when a person's actions are governed by his reason, which in healthy people is the part of the soul with which they identify their sense of self [atman]. Indignation and apatite had to be subordinated to reason through education of a kind that would permeate the minds and the hearts of men that were assembled for the common cause. Reciting poetry, reading and retelling stories of the warrior gods was education that helped shape the saint-soldier.

Good night and Godbless !
 
Last edited:

Harkiran Kaur

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Jul 20, 2012
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I am sorry Original Ji I can never believe Guru Gobind Singh Ji would deliberately plant in mens minds that women are evil, immoral, deceitful, as he would well know that would translate into (now centuries) of Singhs degrading women - and that would undermine ALL of the efforts of the previous Gurus to put women on equal level with men. Think about it, you are saying that yes he did denigrate women, but just so that the Singhs fighting would not think about women and instead focus on fighting?? That doesn't make sense because, most of them had wives. Not all would die in battle. Therefore, Guru Ji supported these Singhs going back to their wives, and then distrusting their wives for the rest of their married lives together? Then, that thinking of women being inherently immoral and deceitful, is passed through generations and now you have majority of Sikh panth treating women as inferior again, teaching ideology that Charitars teach (like women being under subjugation to men and that women should have no independent thought or control, even asking husband for permission to wee??) Certain jathas have now in their rehet maryada (which differs from SRM) that wives are to see (and serve) their husband as 'God' over her. The husband by contrast is told to see his wife as his faithful 'follower'. That sets a definite hierarchy with women beneath man. The Gurus NEVER intended that! Further we can see in the minds of many that women are regarded as the instigator if any immoral act is completed, even to this day! A woman gets raped for example... nobody asks why the man did that horrible thing violating a woman... instead the FIRST questions are ALWAYS "did she lead him on?" "What was she wearing?" "She must have wanted it, and then changed her mind" etc. Its no wonder that many 'Singhs' who believe in the charitropakhyan, want to exclude women from the most 'religious' seva like positions as granthi, raagis, and panj pyaras. Even many Gurdwaras you will never even see women taking hukamnama, or lading Ardaas even! Especially in groups like Taksalis - and speaking to numerous Taksalis, they ALWAYS go back to Dasam Granth and how women are a few tiers lower than men because of the immorality, deceit, etc. and thats why women should 'bow down' and just listen to the men and allow the men to lead.... so to speak.
Our Guru would NEVER intend for this to happen to women - yet its happening TODAY! And since our Gurus were ONE with Waheguru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji certainly knew this would happen. Do you think he would make the decision that treatment of women on a lower and inferior level beneath mens control, which would last a very very long time, was worth it in order to keep the mens minds on the fight??

I don't think that ANY of the Gurus condoned denigrating ANY group, for the sake of steering the actions of some a certain way. Especially a group who had traditionally been on the receiving end of mistreatment and degradation, and was very vulnerable. Vulnerable in the sense that ALL the positive that the previous Gurus did to elevate the status of women, was undone by that text - and thats why we see so many Singhs now limiting Singhnis in the panth - putting us on a lower level. You might not ever be bothered by it, but it affects me and all other Kaurs, every day of our lives as it translated into attitudes of Singhs towards us. It affects us in the refusal to allow us to do any seva (besides hiding us in the langar kitchen) etc. And we may NEVER regain that equality spoken of by Guru Nanak Dev Ji... all because of this text!

No Guru Ji did not write it. Akal Takht and SGPC do not believe he wrote it. And I believe them.

And further more, there were also women who fought, the most notable being Mai Bhago. Where were the stories depicting men as evil and immoral, in order to keep the women focused in battle?? Or did the women not need to denigrate an entire gender in order to focus on fighting??

I mean seriously you are really suggesting Guru Gobind Singh Ji really needed to denigrate an entire group (women) who were already vulnerable since they were subjected to harsh treatment through time by men already....in order to 'make' his Singhs do something? You mean Guru Ji needed to trick men into believing women were really immoral and deceitful, in order to make them fight? I don't think our Guru needed to resort to any such thing, nor would he.


Harkiran Kaur Ji

Thank you for keeping us all posted with interesting reads, but I must confess, I can't handle that kind of literature - sorry ! Prima facie, it is without foundation, wholly unsubstantiated and purely speculative propaganda. Conversely, I concur with the following extract, which you've provided - many thanks:

In the years after the passing of Guru Gobind Singh, the
Sikhs were engaged in battles and struggles, due to which
they could not prepare the Dasam Granth in proper form.
With the beginning of the Singh Sabha movement in the late
nineteenth century, scholars directed toward the religious
scriptures and Sikh history. The Gurmat Granth Parcharak
Sabha Amritsar collected 32 copies of the Dasam Granth.
After five years of deliberations in the second floor of Sri
Akal Takht, Amritsar, these eminent scholars clarified the
differences in the birs and published their report in 1897
A.D. In accordance with that report, the present form of the

Dasam Granth came into existence. The banis included in it
are as follows:
Jaap
Akal Ustat
Bachittar Natak
Chandi Charitra
Chandi Charitra II
War Bhagauti Ji Ki
Giyan Prabodh
Chaubis Avtar (incarnations of Lord Vishnu)
Up Avtar (Brahma and Rudr)
Shabd Hazare
Swaiye
Khalsa Mehma
Shashtar Nam Mala
Charitropakhiyan
Zafarnama, Hikayat


In the above report, Giani Sardul Singh the scholar who was
charged with writing the committee report, agreed that the
whole Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind Singh, and
all doubts were ended.


It was Bhai Mani Singh who after some 26 years of Guru Sahib's departure managed to compile the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - and it is all authentic -

As regards the text in question, Guru Gobind Singh needed real life characters [mythological] to instil performance virtues to best reflect and improvise some of the latent human characteristics necessary to defeat the enemy. What does he do ? He choses characters for describing the scenes of battles in his poetic endeavours to depict as heroes and heroines of war and worship. Instead of imaginary characters he preferred to choose the mythological characters from the ancient Indian texts that were known to the local folk. The objective was to forge from the fire of the forgotten people [slaves] the invincible Spartans. And, he did, magnificently. Eve [woman]was central as an austerity measure, purely for self-discipline, no woman no cry philosophy.

Gobind meant business, none of this lovey-dovey stuff full stop !

Group psyche was fundamental, self-discipline, self-alienation and austere measures were necessary. The literal degradation [note, not physical or spiritual] of women in that regard worked wonders, which kept warrior Sikhs focused with the task to hand. That kind of harmony was only possible when a person's actions are governed by his reason, which in healthy people is the part of the soul with which they identify their sense of self [atman]. Indignation and apatite had to be subordinated to reason through education of a kind that would permeate the minds and the hearts of men that were assembled for the common cause. Reciting poetry, reading and retelling stories of the warrior gods was education that helped shape the saint-soldier.

Good night and Godbless !
 
Last edited:

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
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Kully ji,

Guru Fateh.

Kully, post: 209697, member: 20967"]I don't know if the Guru's called themselves Patshahi, but the Bhatts certainly called them Patshahi's in their bani in SGGS, as did Bhai Gurdas.

Now whether this would make any difference I don't know, but did the Guru's refer to themselves as Mahalla's ? I haven't seen anywhere so far that they did, but would welcome any response from someone who knows more.

Yes, Bhatt Vani mentions Patshah. As far as Bhai Gurdas is concerned, his poetry did not pass the benchmark our Gurus had set up, hence it was not added to the SGGS, our only Guru. Therefore it is irrelevant.

It does make a difference as none of our Gurus called themselves Patshah except supposedly Guru Gobind Singh. As all Gurus are One Jyot, there is thought process of One. Our Gurus called themselves as mere numbers.

When Guru Ji added 9th Guru's bani to Aad Granth, the bani was already written, so there is no question of Guru Gobind Singh Ji adding "Nanak" to the words of 9th Guru.

Do you have any proof of the above because it is self contradictory? If Guru Teg Bahadur's Bani was already written with Nanak at the end, then the question arises why didn't he add that to the SGGS?Nanak at the end means it is Gurbani from One Jyot.

Do you happen to know if any other Gurus had also written the Gurbani with Nanak but they did not add it to the SGGS?

Now as to using "Nanak" in the DG compositions, it would certainly be a viable question if the scriptures were written with the same intention. But then one would have to question, if one already exists, why write another one that is the same? The name Nanak does come up a few times in DG but in a historical perspective.

Is this your personal opinion? If yes, please elaborate;if not, then please give the references.

Tejwant Ji, you have asked a question about defying the norms. Some people stated that Guru Nanak could not be considered as a Guru because he was "Grihasti".

Please state references because Sikhi is based on Grihasti.

Some people state that Guru HarGobind Sahib defied the norms of Sikhi, when Guru Ji introduced Miri-Piri to Gurmat.

Well, the concept of Miri- Piri was started by Guru Nanak. Actually Sikhi is based on this concept. Learn from Piri- SGGS and use it in Miri. Our 6th Guru Named it as such.

And then some people also say that GuruGobind Singh Ji defied the norms when charan pahul was ended and Khande ki pahul was started.

References about Charan Pahul as part of Sikhi does not pass the muster because this very ritual defies the basic concept of Sikhi, rather it is degrading to the Sikhi concept of equality. It infuses Me-ism whereas Sikhi is all about One-ism.

Defying norms is what the Guru's were about. Eating with low-castes, saying that women are not inferior to men, all men are born of one light etc. These were all defiances, so if Guru Gobind Singh wrote a Granth which didn't end in Nanak in the concluding lines, it's not enough on it's own to say Guru's were one jyot but one did something different.

Although I agree with you that Sikhi is based on defiance, but here we are mixing apples with mangoes I am afraid. You are painting the word defy with a very broad brush whereas I used the word for only one thing which is One Jyot indicated by the word Nanak in the SGGS, our only Guru.

Yes, I would be so arrogant if I did second guess my Guru, and I guess you would be as well.

Not me, but I have no idea why would you be? Please elaborate.

But I would definitely not say that Bhai Mani Singh was arrogant, or the other Sikhs who wrote the sp{censored} literature that we have today, which supports totally the fact that Guru Gobind Singh wrote a lot of poetry and also a granth.

It is interesting to notice that you ask Harkiran about some proofs of Hukumnaamas but you have failed to give any references about your claim.

References please.

Yes I would not dare to say that anything is written/not-written by Guru Sahib. i would just look at the information in front of me without making any judgements.

But you have already made your judgement. Why so?

How can we know that Guru Granth Sahib was given gurgaddi? Where has Guru Gobind Singh written, not said, "sabh sikhan ko hukam hai, guru maneyo granth" to Guru Sahib?

Where has Guru Gobind Singh written, not said, that taking khande ki pahul is important or what the procedure for preparing khande ki pahul is?

Are we discussing the authenticity of SGGS or DG? I thought it was the latter.

Is this your opinion that SGGS is not authentic but DG is?

Thanks for the lively interaction.
 
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Kully

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Jan 3, 2016
273
25
Yes, Bhatt Vani mentions Patshah. As far as Bhai Gurdas is concerned, his poetry did not pass the benchmark our Gurus had set up, hence it was not added to the SGGS, our only Guru. Therefore it is irrelevant.

If the Guru's have added Bhatt Bani to SGGS then it meets Guru Sahib's approval. Who am I t second guess my Guru? If Guru Ji has put it in then it's more than enough for me.

As for Bhai Gurdas his vaaran were not added to SGGS because Bhai Sahib, is supposed to have requested it not to be added out of humility, but Guru Sahib gave it approval as the Key to SGGS. Therefore Bhai Gurdas' writings, separate as they are, are still a relevant source.


It does make a difference as none of our Gurus called themselves Patshah except supposedly Guru Gobind Singh.

It may make a difference to you, buy as the answer above to me it makes no difference. It makes no difference to me, that Guru Nanak, on seeing Babur's destruction of Eminabad, still waited for the 6th Jama before taking a sword in his hand.


As all Gurus are One Jyot,

What sources do you have for this? For your information, I'm not disagreeing, I'm just curious as to your source for this.


Do you have any proof of the above because it is self contradictory? If Guru Teg Bahadur's Bani was already written with Nanak at the end, then the question arises why didn't he add that to the SGGS?

How is it self contradictory? Are you suggesting that Guru Tegh Bahadur bani wasn't written with "Nanak" but Guru Gobind Singh added "Nanak"?


Do you happen to know if any other Gurus had also written the Gurbani with Nanak but they did not add it to the SGGS?

No, I haven't made any studies into that.


Is this your personal opinion? If yes, please elaborate;if not, then please give the references.

Yes it is my personal opinion. But it stands to logic. If Guru Gobind Singh wrote another granth identical to Guru Granth Sahib, what would have been the need for it?


Please state references because Sikhi is based on Grihasti.

Grihast marg is the the highest marg, but in those days the holy men and sadhus used to say that grihastis canot achieve mukti.


Well, the concept of Miri- Piri was started by Guru Nanak.

PLease share any examples of Miri piri that Guru Nanak started.


References about Charan Pahul as part of Sikhi does not pass the muster because this very ritual defies the basic concept of Sikhi, rather it is degrading to the Sikhi concept of equality. It infuses Me-ism whereas Sikhi is all about One-ism.

There are several references to charan pahul not only by the Guru's but also by the 22 Manjis that the Guru established.

It is interesting to notice that you ask Harkiran about some proofs of Hukumnaamas but you have failed to give any references about your claim.

References please.

It is interesting that she has not responded to my questions, whilst still contributing to this topic, which makes me think that she made those statements knowing she had no response and has since decided to ignore them.

I mean I have asked 4 or 5 times now, over the space of several days.

But I will not take that same approach. If I don't know the answer/information that can help us to get to the closer to the discussion I will not respond.

There area sp{censored} number of texts written in the 18th century that refer to what we are discussing ie Kesar Singh Chibbers bansawalinama
Mehma Parkash
Gurbilas Patshahi 10
Guru Kian Sakhia.

May I enquire as to whether you have looked at any of these writings at all?


But you have already made your judgement. Why so?

When you say judgement you make it sound like I have closed my mind to any debate or shift from my position on the matter. I have simply taken the steps of lloking at the evidence before me. I have not made any judgements.

Who knows? I could be wrong, once Harikiran Ji and yourself respond the questions I posed to you good selves.


Are we discussing the authenticity of SGGS or DG? I thought it was the latter.

Is this your opinion that SGGS is not authentic but DG is?

I know that you already know the answer to the questions you have posed. But for your informnation I was also commenting on Harkiran Ji's answer to your question below:

How dare we declare what is written and not by Guru Gobind Singh ji when he himself did not indicate anything of that sort?
We can't... the supposed 'proof' is all here say letters from others, books written long after Guru Ji left this world.


If Harkiran Ji feels that the proof is not enough for DG, what is the proof for SGGS?



How can we know that Guru Granth Sahib was given gurgaddi? Where has Guru Gobind Singh written, not said, "sabh sikhan ko hukam hai, guru maneyo granth" to Guru Sahib?

Where has Guru Gobind Singh written, not said, that taking khande ki pahul is important or what the procedure for preparing khande ki pahul is?

But I would still welcome your thoughts on these questions, Tejwant Ji.
 
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