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Dasam Granth And Its History

dalsingh

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Jun 12, 2006
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Gurdasia veer ji.

I specifically requested one post at a time brother. See original post. No consecutive posts. I will start the thread again. Please respect that. Overloading with information is not allowed or a good idea. Please keep the thread concise. That way we can explore a manageable amount of issues at one time before moving to the next.

Your own writing is preferred. Backed by references if available.

I hope you understand.

Gurdaspuria ji

That last image is intriguing. The text on the left folio does indeed resemble what I have been told was dasmesh pita's handwriting in a hukum nama. It is shame a higher quality image could not be found. When I enlarged it to 200 percent it became heavily pixelated.
 
Last edited:
Jun 30, 2009
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Re: Dasam Granth - A rational inquiry

Sorry dal singh

I did not refresh my page so I did not see your replies until now.

I am just giving evidence which I have come across and I myself do not anywhere have enough gyan to comment on Guru Gobind Singh's Bani. I am just providing evidence from those far more knoweldgable than me.
 

dalsingh

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Re: Dasam Granth - A rational inquiry

ਸੱਤ੍ਰਹ ਸੈ ਪੈਤਾਲ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਵਨ ਸੁਦਿ ਥਿਤਿ ਦੀਪ ॥ ਨਗਰ ਪਾਂਵਟਾ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਨ ਜਮਨਾ ਬਹੈ ਸਮੀਪ ॥੨੪੯੦॥
स्त्रह सै पैताल महि सावन सुदि थिति दीप ॥ नगर पांवटा सुभ करन जमना बहै समीप ॥२४९०॥
In the year 1745 of the Vikrami era in the Sudi aspect of the moon in the month of Sawan, in the town of Paonta at the auspicious hour, on banks of the flowing Yamuna; (this work has been completed).2490.

This is the date that Krishna Avtaar was meant to be completed. What does it correspond to in the modern calender?

Also Gurdaspuria, can we get a better quality image of the pages said to be written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji's hand? We could compare to a hukum nama then.
 

Admin

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Re: Dasam Granth - A rational inquiry

The three posts of Gurdaspuria ji merged. Please adhere to instructions as requested. Some irrelevant posts removed. Thank you.
 

dalsingh

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Jun 12, 2006
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Re: Dasam Granth - A rational inquiry

Together can we identify the contents of this reputedly oldest bir, from pre khalsa says. Then we can compare to existing recensions. Panjabi readers kick in please.

I will start. Correct as required. Don't worry about the red portion at the beginning, we want to establish the contents.
 

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dalsingh

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Jun 12, 2006
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Re: Dasam Granth - A rational inquiry

Japu Nishaan Chand? - Jaap Sahib

Ustat Akaal Ju kee chand - Akal Ustat

Swaiyay shri mukh vak - Swaiyay (mukh vaak note is important)

Something (?) natak granth - Someone help

Avtaar shri bishun jee kay - Krishna Avtaar

Granth Shri (?) Gian Parbodh - Gian Parbodh
 
Dec 1, 2006
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Re: Dasam Granth - A rational inquiry

Well, if we want to analyze rationally. Dasam Granth writer make it clear on who the writers are. Writers are three poets: Shyam, Raam and Kaal.

Poet Raam identifies himself:
Byd AhIr n kCu lihXo AwXo Apny gRyh[ rwm BnY iqn iqRX Bey AiDk bFwXo nyh[ 14[ {cirqr 28, 4.1, 111}
Bhaidd Aaheerr Na Kassh Laheyo Aayo Aapnay Grayh| Raam Bhnai Tin Triyyeh Bhaaye Aadhikk Bdaeyo Nayh| 14|
The shepherd didn’t know the secret so he came home without knowing. Poet Raam says that he began loving his wife even more. 14.

Poet Shyam identifies himself:
bIrm dy rwjw inimq bygm qjy prwn[ su kib sXwm Xw kQw ko qbhI BXo indwn[ 47[ 1[ {cirqr 335, 5.5, 47}
Beerum Day Raaja Nimitt Begum Tjay Praan| Su Kub Shyam Yaa Katha Ko Tubhee Bhaeyo Nidaan| 47| 1|
Emperor’s daughter killed herself for King Beeram Raaj. Poet Shyam says that this story is complete at this point. 47. 1.


Aiq bir kY BwrI juJXo qnk n moirXo AMg[ su kib kwl pUrn BXo qb hI kQw pRsMg[ 29[ 1[ {cirqr 195, 4.6, 111}
Aatt Burr Kai Bhaaree Jujhyo Tannak Na Moreyo Aang| Su Kub Kaal Pooran Bhaeyo Tub Hee Katha Parsung| 29| 1|
Very brave and strong soldier died fighting in the war; he didn’t leave the battlefield for even an instance. Poet Kaal says that this story is complete at this occurrence. 29. 1.

If this literature was written by 10th Nanak, it would have been Kahu Nanak or Bhnai Nanak or Kab Nanak and not Raam, Shyam or Kaal.
 

spnadmin

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Re: Dasam Granth - A rational inquiry

Khalsa Fauj ji

You echo the sentiments of Aristotle. One in his mortal form cannot be in two places at the same time or occupy the same body at the same time. So it is either Nanak X or it is someone else. A clear mind is always refreshing to observe at work.

:welcome:
 

Admin

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Admin Note: As there are already a number of discussions going on this topic, we find it futile to start afresh. This topic is now merged with already ongoing discussions... anybody can participate with malice or prejudice... please be informed accordingly...

Regards
 
Dec 1, 2006
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Looks like no one wants to write anything since admin said not to make posts long and be precise.

However, I will put more here. Dasam Granth says:

iqRXih n AMqr dIijXY qw ko lIjY Byd[ bhu purKn ky krq hY ihRdY cMclw Cyd[ 11[ icq iqRX ko hir lIijXY qwih n dIjY icq[ inq pQiq qwih irJwieXY dY dY Aginq ibq[ 12[ gMDRb jC BujMg gn nr bpury ikn mwih[ dyv Adyv iqRXwn ky Byv pCwnq nwih[ 13[ 1[ {cirqr 10, 4.1, 37}
Triyyehe Na Aanttar Deejeyai Taa Ko Leejai Bhaid| Bahu Purkhan Kay Karatt Hai Chunchlaa Shaid| 11| Chitt Triyehh Ko Hurr Leejeyeh Taahe Na Deejai Chitt| Nitt Puthtt Taahe Rejhaayeyyeh Dai Dai Aagnitt Bitt| 12| Gandhrubb Jush Bhujung Gun Nur Bapuray Kin Maahe| Daivv Aadaiv Triyyaan Kay Bhaiv Pshaanatt Naahe| 13| 1|
Don’t not give your secrets to women, learn their secrets. Women always pierce hearts of many men. 11. Always embezzle the hearts of women, do not give them your heart. Keep them happy by giving them a large amount of wealth daily. 12. Gandarbs, Yushs, Bhujungs, Gunns, gods, demons, etc. were not able to find the inner thoughts of women; then what can a man do? 13. 1.
 
Feb 7, 2008
529
83
Re: Dasam Granth - A rational inquiry

Well, if we want to analyze rationally. Dasam Granth writer make it clear on who the writers are. Writers are three poets: Shyam, Raam and Kaal.

Poet Raam identifies himself:
Byd AhIr n kCu lihXo AwXo Apny gRyh[ rwm BnY iqn iqRX Bey AiDk bFwXo nyh[ 14[ {cirqr 28, 4.1, 111}
Bhaidd Aaheerr Na Kassh Laheyo Aayo Aapnay Grayh| Raam Bhnai Tin Triyyeh Bhaaye Aadhikk Bdaeyo Nayh| 14|
The shepherd didn’t know the secret so he came home without knowing. Poet Raam says that he began loving his wife even more. 14.

Poet Shyam identifies himself:
bIrm dy rwjw inimq bygm qjy prwn[ su kib sXwm Xw kQw ko qbhI BXo indwn[ 47[ 1[ {cirqr 335, 5.5, 47}
Beerum Day Raaja Nimitt Begum Tjay Praan| Su Kub Shyam Yaa Katha Ko Tubhee Bhaeyo Nidaan| 47| 1|
Emperor’s daughter killed herself for King Beeram Raaj. Poet Shyam says that this story is complete at this point. 47. 1.


Aiq bir kY BwrI juJXo qnk n moirXo AMg[ su kib kwl pUrn BXo qb hI kQw pRsMg[ 29[ 1[ {cirqr 195, 4.6, 111}
Aatt Burr Kai Bhaaree Jujhyo Tannak Na Moreyo Aang| Su Kub Kaal Pooran Bhaeyo Tub Hee Katha Parsung| 29| 1|
Very brave and strong soldier died fighting in the war; he didn’t leave the battlefield for even an instance. Poet Kaal says that this story is complete at this occurrence. 29. 1.

If this literature was written by 10th Nanak, it would have been Kahu Nanak or Bhnai Nanak or Kab Nanak and not Raam, Shyam or Kaal.

There is no writer as kaal in dasam Granth. There are Shyam and Gobidn. Ram and shyam were pen names of Guru sahib.

One should see belief pattern of writer than focussing on name of writer.

Charitropakhayan are mythical tales and are in mantri bhup sambad style. These are retold by Guru sahib. The purpose of myth is that these are not real but have moral lesson in the end.

May i request that a separate thread be kept for chariropakhayan as some memebrs have tendency to jump to charitropakhayan.
 

Randip Singh

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My view from another post:

COMPOSITION OF THE DASAM GRANTH

It is unclear where all the compositions of the Dasam Granth come from. Some may have been commissioned by Guruji from his court poets, while other parts may have been penned by Guruji himself..

Note Dasam Granth is not one work like Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but a compilation of of writings recovered after the sacking of Anandpur Sahib. Many were lost.

Guruji specifically never included Dasam Granth literature in the Guru Granth Sahib ji, so one can conclude it was for another purpose.

Most of Dasam Granth is written in Braj, Punjabi and Persian.

BELIEF IN HINDU GODS

A common misconception is that Dasam Granth praises Hindu Gods. This is not true. So why are they mentioned? For the following reasons:

1) Illustrative purposes : People must remember the Khalsa had just been formed or was in the process of being formed when this was penned. The Sikhs of that time still understood things in terms of Hinduism and Hindu lore. So to describe concepts of God and complex Sikh concepts Guruji had to use concepts that were familiar to the populace hence (hence tales of Hindu mythology).

An example of this is travelling to an island where there is no electricity......how would you describe it in concepts they understand....fire, water ?

2) The is Only one God: Guruji from the start spends pages upon pages (Japu) describing the form of God "Kaal and Akaal" ..."Salutation to the one Indestructible, Salutation to the indivisible" etc etc.

3) The Hindu Gods Are Not Gods: I Akal Ustati Guruji states "He creates as well as destroys both Brahma and Shiva".......now is not a God immortal and Omnipitent? If Brahma and Shiva can be destroyed then they are not Gods. It futher says "Shiva and Vishnu fail to comprehend him"....surely a God knows everything....if Shiva and Vishnu do not know the nature of God, they cannot be Gods.

It further states under Tomar Chand "He created hundreds of Kings like Indra, many Brahmas and Vishnus, many Ramas, Krishnas and other prophets, but none is acceptable to Him without devotion". Guruji views these "Gods" as prophets and not Gods.

Under Kabitt it states

"Many Shivas came to the world and went; Many are incarnation like Krishna and Rama; innumerable are Brahmas and Vishnus, Vedas and Puranas; Many have been authors of Smirtis; They all came and went off; There have been numerous Madrarachal, innumerable Aswini Kumars and equally many progeny of incarnations, but they all have been prey to death."


How can a God die? Unless it is ofcourse not a God and a human. and mortal.

From http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&...=t&id=64483

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥
ब्रहम महेसर बिसन सचीपित अंत फसे जम फासि परैंगे ॥
Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu and Consort of Sachi (Indra) would ultimately fall in the noose of death.

There are many other examples but one gets the picture that Guruji thought these so called Hindu "Gods" were just mortal, and therefore not Gods.

4) Specific Audience - The Dasam Granth (and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) has a specific audience in mind. For most parts it is Hindu`s in Dasam Granth. In Chandi Di Var, Guruji is trying to inspire the low caste Hindu`s, from which Sikh`s are made up of (Jats, Tarkhans, Kalal`s, Julaha`s, Chamar`s etc), to fight by telling them a story of Indian Lore that they will understand.

Epistle of Victory (or Zafarnama), is addressed to Aurengzeb and tell him of his treachery. What is remarkable about it is the Persian it is written in....apparently poetically and grammatically it is perfect.....something Persian`s for the most part cannot get right because it is such a subtle language....for example one could easily describe a cup a instead of an ocean with one misssed stroke.

WHY IS THE DASAM GRANTH IMPORTANT?


It is important because it describes some key events that occurred, for example the Battle of Bhanghani and Chamkaur. It also names specific Sikhs and who was involved where.


It give`s us an insight into the infant Sikh Nation.


It shows us what an accomplished intellectual Guruji was. In it he writes about the French, the Africans etc:
http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&...=t&id=66496

ਫਰਾ ਕੇ ਫਿਰੰਗੀ ਮਾਨੈਂ ਕੰਧਾਰੀ ਕੁਰੈਸੀ ਜਾਨੈਂ ਪਛਮ ਕੇ ਪੱਛਮੀ ਪਛਾਨੈਂ ਨਿਜ ਕਾਮ ਹੈਂ ॥
फरा के फिरंगी मानैं कंधारी कुरैसी जानैं पछम के प्छमी पछानैं निज काम हैं ॥
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25416 (My Views On Dasam Granth)
The people of France and England revere Thee, the inhabitants of Kandhaar and Quraishis know Thee; the people of western side recognize their duty towards Thee.

Tells us about the behaviour of Sikhs and Guruji:
ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਨਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਮਾਰੇ ਰੀਛ ਰੋਝ ਝੰਖਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
भांति भांति बनि खेल सिकारा ॥ मारे रीछ रोझ झंखारा ॥१॥
I went hunting various kinds of animals in the forest and killed bears, nilgais (blue bulls) and elks.1.

ਦੇਸ ਚਾਲ ਹਮ ਤੇ ਪੁਨਿ ਭਈ ॥ ਸਹਰ ਪਾਂਵਟਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ਲਈ ॥
देस चाल हम ते पुनि भई ॥ सहर पांवटा की सुधि लई ॥
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25416 (My Views On Dasam Granth)
Then I left my home and went to place named Paonta.

ਕਾਲਿੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਤਟਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਲਾਸਾ ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਾਂਤ ਕੇ ਪੇਖਿ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥੨॥
कालिंद्री तटि करे बिलासा ॥ अनिक भांत के पेखि तमासा ॥२॥
I enjoyed my stay on the banks of Kalindri (Yamuna) and saw amusement of various kind.

ਤਹ ਕੇ ਸਿੰਘ ਘਨੇ ਚੁਨਿ ਮਾਰੇ ॥ ਰੋਝ ਰੀਛ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥
तह के सिंघ घने चुनि मारे ॥ रोझ रीछ बहु भांति बिदारे ॥
There I killed may lions, nilgais and bears.

READ WITH AN OPEN MIND AND UNDERSTANDING


Sikh writings must be understood in their specific, historical, sociological, and economical context. One then gets an image of what is going on:

For example:

1) Kabir writes at the time of the Invasion of Timur and the sacking of Delhi and Benares (which he witnessed), and the slaughter of many innocent Hindu`s.

2) Guru Nanak writes at the time of the invasion of Babur. He witnessed many atrocities.

3) Guruji writes at a time of much strife caused by Aurengzeb
 
Feb 7, 2008
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That last image is intriguing. The text on the left folio does indeed resemble what I have been told was dasmesh pita's handwriting in a hukum nama. It is shame a higher quality image could not be found. When I enlarged it to 200 percent it became heavily pixelated.
You have to see the background of sikh struggles. How Guru ji had to leave Anandpur, Scriptures falling into the hands of Muslims and lot of literature swept away by inflated Sirsa.Please take these factors into account before commenting.

Need to remember that there were scribes employed by guru ji for compilation of Dasam Granth. His hand written pages are there but not all was not written in his hand. His hand written pages are known as khas patras. Corrections in his hand writing are all over the manuscript.

Also original beer called Hazuri beer is held by a private house. What we are seeing is digitized copy. Very few people have seen this beer.
 
Feb 7, 2008
529
83
That last image is intriguing. The text on the left folio does indeed resemble what I have been told was dasmesh pita's handwriting in a hukum nama. It is shame a higher quality image could not be found. When I enlarged it to 200 percent it became heavily pixelated.

Dal singh

The understanding was there will be new thread. Why my name is still under moderation. That is not what you told me.
 

Admin

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Jun 1, 2004
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Inder Singh Ji, we reviewed our decision and decided that there is no need as such to open new threads just to accomodate any person. As this topic is already well debated in various already existing topics, you are encouraged to debate your points under these topics. Further, we are yet to hear from all the moderators and mentors on removing your account's moderation status and will decided on its status soon. Thank you for understanding.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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You have to see the background of sikh struggles. How Guru ji had to leave Anandpur, Scriptures falling into the hands of Muslims and lot of literature swept away by inflated Sirsa.Please take these factors into account before commenting.

Need to remember that there were scribes employed by guru ji for compilation of Dasam Granth. His hand pages are there but not all are his hand written pages.

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

We are here to seek the truth, not to speculate. so for you to claim that some of the pages presented are written by Guru Gobind Singh ji is nothing but speculation which leads to falsehood, not a Sikhi trait,l am afraid.

What exactly are you trying to prove here? The handwriting is of Guru Gobind Singh ji? Compared to what?

So, I urge you not to speculate in the name of Guru Gobind Singh ji which is nothing but disrespect to our beloved Guru.

Tejwant Singh
 
Feb 7, 2008
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Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

We are here to seek the truth, not to speculate. so for you to claim that some of the pages presented are written by Guru Gobind Singh ji is nothing but speculation which leads to falsehood, not a Sikhi trait,l am afraid.

What exactly are you trying to prove here? The handwriting is of Guru Gobind Singh ji? Compared to what?

So, I urge you not to speculate in the name of Guru Gobind Singh ji which is nothing but disrespect to our beloved Guru.

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant ji

It is not speculation. it is a reality. Is SGGS written by Guru sahib. There was scribe for that.

Here also scribes were there. additionally we have hand written pages of Guru sahib also. His hand writing is recognizable. he has also done corrections on many pages.

I had invited you to ahve a look on this. You turned down my offer.
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,024
7,183
Henderson, NV.
Tejwant ji

It is not speculation. it is a reality. Is SGGS written by Guru sahib. There was scribe for that.

Here also scribes were there. additionally we have hand written pages of Gur sahib also. His hand writing is recognizable. he has also done corrections on many pages.

I had invited you to ahve a look on this. You turned down my offer.

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

My question still remains unanswered. How do you know it is Guru Gobind Singh ji's handwriting? Compared to what?

Thanks for the invitation but that would not prove anything. As I said before, it is our duty as Sikhs to seek the truth not to invent it by speculation which becomes a big lie.

Secondly, please show me in this forum about another falsehood that you have created in another forum called Sikh Sangat. Following is your false claim:

Slander Of Dasam Bani On Spn





Inder Singh






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Jun 27 2009, 12:04 PM
Post #1


Vada Mera Govind Agam Agochar
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I have observed that of lately Sikh philosophy network site is turning into a kala afghna mouthpiece. There
are some die hard anti Dasam Bani people who have been made mentors on that site. They slander bani of Dasam granth on one pretext or the other.

They also interpret SGGS ji in a totally different way. They write that there is no gurmantra and naam simran in sikhi. New meanings of Amrit vela are being given.Any effort to combat that is nipped in the bud.

Does anyone has experience on that site. Please share that here.

Inder Singh ji,


1.Why the title to malign others who disagree with you?

2.Is this a Sikhi way?

3.How can a Sikh do this in another forum? To gain sympathy rather than seeking the truth?

Please show us as a true Sikh where we have slandered Dasam Granth.

I hope you do not run away from the truth this time.

Please show us the posts on SPN which prove your false claim which is the title of the thread.

To be fair and balanced as a true Sikh that you claim to be, you should invite your friends from Sikh Sangat so they can help you check what you are claiming about, so truth can come out.

As your claim will be proved false and full of lies, I would expect you to apologise to all in this forum and in Sikh Sangat forum and other forums where you have spread the lies about SPN and at the Freemont Gurdwara, El Sobrante Gurdwara and San Jose Gurdwara this Sunday in front of the whole Sangat. I can have this arranged for you through the Gurdwara Commitees.

This is the only way to mend ways with Ik Ong Kaar.

Waiting for your response.

Tejwant Singh
 
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