Debate: Spiritual Vs Non Spiritual Interpretation Of Gurbani

[Harry Haller]

According to the litmus test, Sikhism is a way of life centred around optimism and potential rather than fear and regret..

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Every sentence of 1429 SGGS is in Chardeekallah and High Spirits...its our mediocre thinking that we categorise certain shabads as Kushi de shabad..Gamee de shabad..dhendikala de shabad.dukh bhanjan shabad..sukh deaan valleh shabad..marg de shabad..viah de shabad..etc etc etc.....and from this attutude stems the compalints..OH HO..Marg da Bhog see..Granthi neh Lakh Khsuhian patshaiahn da shabad hukm lay liyah... saddeh mundeh da jan din da smagam see..Bhai neh Allahnniah vichon Marg da shabd hukmnamah lay dittah...etc etc type of utterly stupid comments and way of thinking.

ALL these Dukh Banjab sukhbhanjan etc etc COLLECTIONS of shabds in GUTKAS are collections by INDIVIDUALS....this bad habit has been going on for a long time...Someone arbitrarily decided to ADD "SIRLEKHS" meaning TITLES to their own shabads and call them REHRASS...KIRTAN SOHILA...DUKHBHANJANNI shabad..NITNEM...AARTEE de Shabad...etc etc etc...all of which TITLES DONT EXIST in the SGGS...and one most LUDICROUS one is the one by Bahgat Namdev about AARTA....which means BEGGAR...and this shabad is added to the AARTEE shabad collection simply due tot he superficial word AARTA in it....when in fact AARTA is as far away from AARTEE as is the Sun from the Moon...!!!!!! Bhagwaan TERA aarta is Namdev addressing The Creator..Here I am Bhagwaan Ji.....YOUR BIGGEST
BEGGAR....!!! This shabad has got nothing to do with the so called Aartee...

When will we Sikhs open our eyes and see the REAL GURBANI for what it is...

 

[Harry Haller]

Surface meaning of above sabd reveals bhagat farid is narrating pessimistic state of mind but little efforts in understanding will show it is in fact of chardhi kala and of celebration and not death

How did you get that out that!??

To me it is saying that since we can never know the day we will leave this physical life, we should not squander this chance we have. It's saying that death can not be avoided... as in we all eventually die (physically) and that if we do not use this chance the 'soul' will experience regret, so it's telling him to be careful not to be robbed of the time that he has been given by engaging in useless pursuits. This human form is special and rare, and we have been given this chance to meet the creator, so we shouldn't waste it.

To me it's just a reminder... not a celebration

sorry, maybe I am just being stupid, but I cannot see much difference between the two

 

[Sherdil]

Why does death have to be viewed with pessimism? Those who don't value death, take this life for granted. We are so busy in worldly pursuits that we often don't take a moment to smell the roses and appreciate the miracle of being alive.

Bhagat Farid ji is reminding us that this life won't last forever, therefore it is important to make the most of each moment.

Here is the remainder of the Shabadh, which appears on page 1377 of GGS:

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਦਰ ਦਰਵੇਸੀ ਗਾਖੜੀ ਚਲਾਂ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਭਤਿ ॥
फरीदा दर दरवेसी गाखड़ी चलां दुनीआं भति ॥
Farīḏā ḏar ḏarvesī gākẖ▫ṛī cẖalāʼn ḏunī▫āʼn bẖaṯ.
Fareed, it is so difficult to become a humble Saint at the Lord's Door.
ਬੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਉਠਾਈ ਪੋਟਲੀ ਕਿਥੈ ਵੰਞਾ ਘਤਿ ॥੨॥
बंन्हि उठाई पोटली किथै वंञा घति ॥२॥
Banėh uṯẖā▫ī potlī kithai vañā gẖaṯ. ||2||
I am so accustomed to walking in the ways of the world. I have tied and picked up the bundle; where can I go to throw it away? ||2||
ਕਿਝੁ ਨ ਬੁਝੈ ਕਿਝੁ ਨ ਸੁਝੈ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਗੁਝੀ ਭਾਹਿ ॥
किझु न बुझै किझु न सुझै दुनीआ गुझी भाहि ॥
Kijẖ na bujẖai kijẖ na sujẖai ḏunī▫ā gujẖī bẖāhi.
I know nothing; I understand nothing. The world is a smoldering fire.
ਸਾਂਈਂ ਮੇਰੈ ਚੰਗਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਤ ਹੰ ਭੀ ਦਝਾਂ ਆਹਿ ॥੩॥
सांईं मेरै चंगा कीता नाही त हं भी दझां आहि ॥३॥
Sā▫īʼn merai cẖanga kīṯā nāhī ṯa haʼn bẖī ḏajẖāʼn āhi. ||3||
My Lord did well to warn me about it; otherwise, I would have been burnt as well. ||3||
ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜੇ ਜਾਣਾ ਤਿਲ ਥੋੜੜੇ ਸੰਮਲਿ ਬੁਕੁ ਭਰੀ ॥
फरीदा जे जाणा तिल थोड़ड़े समलि बुकु भरी ॥
Farīḏā je jāṇā ṯil thoṛ▫ṛe sammal buk bẖarī.
Fareed, if I had known that I had so few sesame seeds, I would have been more careful with them in my hands.
ਜੇ ਜਾਣਾ ਸਹੁ ਨੰਢੜਾ ਤਾਂ ਥੋੜਾ ਮਾਣੁ ਕਰੀ ॥੪॥
जे जाणा सहु नंढड़ा तां थोड़ा माणु करी ॥४॥
Je jāṇā saho nandẖ▫ṛā ṯāʼn thoṛā māṇ karī. ||4||
If I had known that my Husband Lord was so young and innocent, I would not have been so arrogant. ||4||
ਜੇ ਜਾਣਾ ਲੜੁ ਛਿਜਣਾ ਪੀਡੀ ਪਾਈਂ ਗੰਢਿ ॥
जे जाणा लड़ु छिजणा पीडी पाईं गंढि ॥
Je jāṇā laṛ cẖẖijṇā pīdī pā▫īʼn gandẖ.
If I had known that my robe would come loose, I would have tied a tighter knot.
ਤੈ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਮੈ ਨਾਹਿ ਕੋ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਡਿਠਾ ਹੰਢਿ ॥੫॥
तै जेवडु मै नाहि को सभु जगु डिठा हंढि ॥५॥
Ŧai jevad mai nāhi ko sabẖ jag diṯẖā handẖ. ||5||
I have found none as great as You, Lord; I have looked and searched throughout the world. ||5||
ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜੇ ਤੂ ਅਕਲਿ ਲਤੀਫੁ ਕਾਲੇ ਲਿਖੁ ਨ ਲੇਖ ॥
फरीदा जे तू अकलि लतीफु काले लिखु न लेख ॥
Farīḏā je ṯū akal laṯīf kāle likẖ na lekẖ.
Fareed, if you have a keen understanding, then do not write black marks against anyone else.
ਆਪਨੜੇ ਗਿਰੀਵਾਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਨੀਵਾਂ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੁ ॥੬॥
आपनड़े गिरीवान महि सिरु नींवां करि देखु ॥६॥
Āpnaṛe girīvān mėh sir nīʼnvāʼn kar ḏekẖ. ||6||
Look underneath your own collar instead. ||6||
ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜੋ ਤੈ ਮਾਰਨਿ ਮੁਕੀਆਂ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਨ ਮਾਰੇ ਘੁੰਮਿ ॥
फरीदा जो तै मारनि मुकीआं तिन्हा न मारे घुमि ॥
Farīḏā jo ṯai māran mukī▫āʼn ṯinĥā na māre gẖumm.
Fareed, do not turn around and strike those who strike you with their fists.
ਆਪਨੜੈ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਪੈਰ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਦੇ ਚੁੰਮਿ ॥੭॥
आपनड़ै घरि जाईऐ पैर तिन्हा दे चुमि ॥७॥
Āpnaṛai gẖar jā▫ī▫ai pair ṯinĥā ḏe cẖumm. ||7||
Kiss their feet, and return to your own home. ||7||
ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜਾਂ ਤਉ ਖਟਣ ਵੇਲ ਤਾਂ ਤੂ ਰਤਾ ਦੁਨੀ ਸਿਉ ॥
फरीदा जां तउ खटण वेल तां तू रता दुनी सिउ ॥
Farīḏā jāʼn ṯa▫o kẖataṇ vel ṯāʼn ṯū raṯā ḏunī si▫o.
Fareed, when there was time for you to earn good karma, you were in love with the world instead.
ਮਰਗ ਸਵਾਈ ਨੀਹਿ ਜਾਂ ਭਰਿਆ ਤਾਂ ਲਦਿਆ ॥੮॥
मरग सवाई नीहि जां भरिआ तां लदिआ ॥८॥
Marag savā▫ī nīhi jāʼn bẖari▫ā ṯāʼn laḏi▫ā. ||8||
Now, death has a strong foothold; when the load is full, it is taken away. ||8||
ਦੇਖੁ ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜੁ ਥੀਆ ਦਾੜੀ ਹੋਈ ਭੂਰ ॥
देखु फरीदा जु थीआ दाड़ी होई भूर ॥
Ḏekẖ Farīḏā jo thī▫ā ḏāṛī ho▫ī bẖūr.
See, Fareed, what has happened: your beard has become grey.
ਅਗਹੁ ਨੇੜਾ ਆਇਆ ਪਿਛਾ ਰਹਿਆ ਦੂਰਿ ॥੯॥
अगहु नेड़ा आइआ पिछा रहिआ दूरि ॥९॥
Agahu neṛā ā▫i▫ā picẖẖā rahi▫ā ḏūr. ||9||
That which is coming is near, and the past is left far behind. ||9||
ਦੇਖੁ ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜਿ ਥੀਆ ਸਕਰ ਹੋਈ ਵਿਸੁ ॥
देखु फरीदा जि थीआ सकर होई विसु ॥
Ḏekẖ Farīḏā jė thī▫ā sakar ho▫ī vis.
See, Fareed, what has happened: sugar has become poison.
ਸਾਂਈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਆਪਣੇ ਵੇਦਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਿਸੁ ॥੧੦॥
सांई बाझहु आपणे वेदण कहीऐ किसु ॥१०॥
Sāʼn▫ī bājẖahu āpṇe veḏaṇ kahī▫ai kis. ||10||
Without my Lord, who can I tell of my sorrow? ||10||
ਫਰੀਦਾ ਅਖੀ ਦੇਖਿ ਪਤੀਣੀਆਂ ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਰੀਣੇ ਕੰਨ ॥
फरीदा अखी देखि पतीणीआं सुणि सुणि रीणे कंन ॥
Farīḏā akẖī ḏekẖ paṯīṇī▫āʼn suṇ suṇ rīṇe kann.
Fareed, my eyes have become weak, and my ears have become hard of hearing.
ਸਾਖ ਪਕੰਦੀ ਆਈਆ ਹੋਰ ਕਰੇਂਦੀ ਵੰਨ ॥੧੧॥
साख पकंदी आईआ होर करेंदी वंन ॥११॥
Sākẖ pakanḏī ā▫ī▫ā hor kareʼnḏī vann. ||11||
The body's crop has become ripe and turned color. ||11||
ਫਰੀਦਾ ਕਾਲੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਨ ਰਾਵਿਆ ਧਉਲੀ ਰਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
फरीदा कालीं जिनी न राविआ धउली रावै कोइ ॥
Farīḏā kālīʼn jinī na rāvi▫ā ḏẖa▫ulī rāvai ko▫e.
Fareed, those who did not enjoy their Spouse when their hair was black - hardly any of them enjoy Him when their hair turns grey.
ਕਰਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਸਿਉ ਪਿਰਹੜੀ ਰੰਗੁ ਨਵੇਲਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
करि सांई सिउ पिरहड़ी रंगु नवेला होइ ॥१२॥
Kar sāʼn▫ī si▫o pirhaṛī rang navelā ho▫e. ||12||
So be in love with the Lord, so that your color may ever be new. ||12||

Bhagat Farid ji is lamenting his time spent in this world as a youth. He is saying he should have realized what is important in life, and he should have fell in love with his Husband Lord sooner. He only realizes his mistake in old age, when death is knocking at his door.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Guys, when I say it's a warning I don't mean in a nagative sense... unless of course someone DOES squander away their life. More like.... a friendly reminder?? Like hey... you know you have this chance as a human life to meet the creator and actually KNOW and realize that you are much much more than your physical shell?? What could be greater an experience than that??!!! Are you REALLY sure you want to spend this time drinking and gambling instead??

Yes, it's positive that we do in fact HAVE this chance to meet the creator while in this life... I would hazard a guess that nobody has reached that high of a spiritual state in a long time however. And it's not reserved for only Sikhs either... And I fail to see how only focusing on only the physical and not remembering the creator and our spiritual side will ever get us there... Mata Bhag Kaur Ji, was one who was known to have reached this state. By her example we can see that this is a state beyond the physical (ie its not simply getting along with your neighbours) because she attained the state of param hans and lost touch alsmost completely with the physical that she had not even noticed that her clothes had become tattered and she was almost naked (that`s also an account in the favour of women donning dastaars because she was ordered by Guru Ji to put clothes on and also a dastaar). Other accounts are the state that the Gurus were able to attain in order to withstand torture... do you think that ANYONE could ever possibly attain such a state without fear, if they believed that this life was all they had to look forward to? No way! Everyone would automatically be scared because they would fear losing their only life and ceasing to exist! The Gurus however not just believed but KNEW that they were much more than their physical shell... and that physical death was not the end! So they endured the torture knowing confidently that they will continue on.

Certainly giving selflessly,helps and is neceaasry as we are all really ONE, but there needs to be a balance. A person can give and give and give - give away all their possesions and money, and even volunteer every spare minute of their time to help others, but if they have no rembrance of the creator, if they don`t realize that they are much more than the physical, they will not find the creator - or the divine light of the creator within them.

So their needs to be both... selfless service, and living in harmony with creation on a physical level, but also reflection on the spiritual, rembrance of the creator, inward reflection, learning and realization that there is WAY more to existence than only this physical life... that this physical life is not what we are confined to... that we go on and do not cease to exist!

"We not human beings seeking a spiritual experience; In fact we are spiritual beings having a human experience."

(Ambarsaria Ji: insert whatever word you want to you use for spiritual... I am using spiritual not to try and define that specific 'word' as having a specific definition but it is the word I closest associate with the state I am trying to convey... does that make sense? --- Let's not get focused on semantics of the actual word. You know that I mean..... the nonphysical part of us that trancsends the physical... that bit of us which is the 'I AM' the 'Doer' the 'Experiencer' - the bit that is actually us, our essence... not the flesh, nor the cells that make it up, nor the proteins that make them up, or the molecules, or atoms, or electrons, quarks etc... I mean the bit of us that exists beyond all of that! The conscious, the aware part (and dont start with the definition of consciousness too lol same thing!! the bit that experiences haha) That's what I mean when I say 'spiritual' I don't care about different definitions of the actual word. I just don't know what else to call it because no matter what word I try to use, you will try to define it into some limited sense of definition. Yet I know exactly what it is I am trying to describe, the state, the 'being' that I am trying to convey...) *ok....breathe Akasha.... LOL* Did that make sense???

 

[Sherdil]

Other accounts are the state that the Gurus were able to attain in order to withstand torture... do you think that ANYONE could ever possibly attain such a state without fear, if they believed that this life was all they had to look forward to? No way! Everyone would automatically be scared because they would fear losing their only life and ceasing to exist! The Gurus however not just believed but KNEW that they were much more than their physical shell... and that physical death was not the end! So they endured the torture knowing confidently that they will continue on.

This reminds me of Buddhist monks immolating themselves in peaceful protest. It's amazing that they can sit so serenely while being burned alive.

I don't think this is the measuring stick of anyone's mukti, but mukti in itself can be viewed as freedom from suffering. The whole idea of Samsara is merely a synonym for suffering. Recognition that you are the cause of your own suffering is the first step (aapeh beejh, aapeh hee khaho). This, along with control over the 5 thieves, can lead one to happiness and contentment.

IMO eacesign:

 

[Harry Haller]

warning (ˈwɔːnɪŋ)
n
1. a hint, intimation, threat, etc, of harm or danger
2. advice to beware or desist
3. an archaic word for notice6
adj
4. (prenominal) intended or serving to warn: a warning look.
5. (Biology) (of the coloration of certain distasteful or poisonous animals) having conspicuous markings, which predators recognize and learn to avoid; aposematic

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/warning

Guys, when I say it's a warning I don't mean in a nagative sense...

I do not think it could be taken in any other way than a negative one lol

Like hey... you know you have this chance as a human life to meet the creator and actually KNOW and realize that you are much much more than your physical shell??

I am too busy living to meet anyone, any realisation that I am much more than my physical shell would probably impede my current lifestyle.

What could be greater an experience than that??!!!

I have no idea, could you describe what this experience feels like?

Are you REALLY sure you want to spend this time drinking and gambling instead??

most drunks and gamblers are very sure indeed about what they want to do, this is all sounding very carrot and stick to me.

Yes, it's positive that we do in fact HAVE this chance to meet the creator while in this life...

like as a prize? in a gameshow? will they film it? will there be appropriate music? maybe backstage videos of the Creator all apprehensive for the big meet?

I would hazard a guess that nobody has reached that high of a spiritual state in a long time however

since when has Sikhism been all about aspiring for something that nobody has achieved in a long time? Thats a way of life for the common person! Be a Sikh and meet the Creator (advertising disclaimer-no one has achieved this in a long time), whatever happened to just working, contemplating, giving and living?

And I fail to see how only focusing on only the physical and not remembering the creator and our spiritual side will ever get us there...

I do not think you can perform as a Sikh physically and not be spiritual.

Mata Bhag Kaur Ji, was one who was known to have reached this state.

was she now

. Mata Bhag Kaur Ji, was one who was known to have reached this state. By her example we can see that this is a state beyond the physical (ie its not simply getting along with your neighbours) because she attained the state of param hans and lost touch alsmost completely with the physical that she had not even noticed that her clothes had become tattered and she was almost naked (that`s also an account in the favour of women donning dastaars because she was ordered by Guru Ji to put clothes on and also a dastaar).

I found this http://www.sikhanswers.com/sikh-articles-of-faith-identity/sikh-women-turban-dastaar/

The renowned Panthic writer Kavi Santokh Singh Jee in his Granth, Gur Pratap Sooraj mentions the Hukam Sri Guru Gobind Singh gave to Mata Bhaag Kaur. Mata Jee had reached a very high spiritual state and had stopped wearing clothes. The Singhs complained to Dasmesh Pitha Jee, who summoned Mata Bhaag Kaur. Kavi Santokh Singh records the Hukam Guru Sahib gave to Mata Jee:
ਗਰੁਵੀ ਸਾਂਗ ਹਾਥ ਮਹਿ ਧਰੈ,
ਸਦਾ ਆਨੰਦ ਏਕ ਰੱਸ ਥਿਰੈ।
ਕੇਤਕ ਮਾਸ ਨਗਨ ਜਬ ਰਹੀ,
ਇਕ ਦਿਨ ਦੇਖ ਨਿਕਟ ਗੁਰ ਕਹੀ।
ਸੁਨ ਮਾਈ ਭਾਗ ਕੌਰ ਸਚਿਆਰੀ,
ਕੁਲ ਨੈਨਹਿ ਸਸੁਰਾਰਿ ਉਬਾਰੀ।
ਪਰਮ ਹੰਸ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਪਾਈ।
ਤੁਝ ਕੋ ਦੋਸ ਨਾ ਲਗੈ ਕਦਾਈ।
ਰਹਿਨ ਦਿਗੰਬਰ ਤੁਝ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ।
ਇਕ ਰਸ ਬਿਰਤੀ ਭਈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ।
ਤਨ ਹੰਤਾ ਸਭ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ।
ਪਾਇੳ ਪਰਮ ਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ।
ਤਊ ਸੰਗ ਤੂ ਰਹਿਤ ਹਮਾਰੇ।
ਪਹਿਰਿ ਕਾਛ, ਲਘੁ ਸਿਰ ਦਸਤਾਰੇ।

(ਰੁਤਿ 3, ਅੰਸੂ 22, ਜਿਲਦ 14, ਫੰਨਾ 3068)
In this Historic account the mention of Dastaar Rehat is clear. Having reached the spiritual state of “Param Hans” in this intoxicated state Mata Bhaag Kaur had stopped wearing clothes. When Guru Sahib ordered her to keep her body covered he specifically mentioned the Rehat of Dastaar as well. Was this Hukam necessary if Guru Sahib didn’t consider a Dastaar to be mandatory for both Sikh men and women? Not only did Guru Sahib order a Bibi at such a high Avastha to cover herself but to wear a Dastaar as well, putting the Dastaar at the same level as the Kachhera and the rest of the Kakkars ( Guru Sahib also mentions to wear a Kachhera in the Hukam).

This is all based on a 'Granth' written by the above panthic writer, which confirms that Mataji walked around naked because of this state. I do not think this is fitting behaviour for a Sikh woman, regardless of their spiritual state...., I do not think it is fitting behaviour for any woman,.

Other accounts are the state that the Gurus were able to attain in order to withstand torture... do you think that ANYONE could ever possibly attain such a state without fear, if they believed that this life was all they had to look forward to? No way! Everyone would automatically be scared because they would fear losing their only life and ceasing to exist!

you mean they cheated? they did not really die to show us that the truth was more important than death? they died because they knew they would be ok? I find this tarnishes them somewhat, I have always had this view that they went into the unknown, brave, truthful people, that went into the unknown, and they did it because that was less important than the truth.

So they endured the torture knowing confidently that they will continue on.

can torture be endured confidently? I always thought it was more about acceptance of Hukam, I thought that was the lesson, not some get of jail card.

Certainly giving selflessly,helps and is neceaasry as we are all really ONE, but there needs to be a balance. A person can give and give and give - give away all their possesions and money, and even volunteer every spare minute of their time to help others, but if they have no rembrance of the creator, if they don`t realize that they are much more than the physical, they will not find the creator - or the divine light of the creator within them.

If it means I, and those round me, are spared me walking round naked, I think I will pass, I mean it sounds like great fun, hankering for something that no one has had for ' a long time' and then finding out all it does is make you want to strip off, Im out.

Did that make sense???

errr no

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

harry Ji..BEST said. I wonder how Sikhs can treat our Gurus sacrifices like a "Game"..Some say they had power..some say they used magic..others say they knew whats on the other end..blah blah blah..SGGS clearly tells us NO One had/has come back..No one knows. period...but we continue to play our little games and second guess the Gurus..wah wah. HUKM RAZAII CHALLNNAH is the very First Page of our Gurus Life and Instruction..nothing more.:japosatnamwaheguru::kaurkhalsaflagred:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Mai Bhaag Kaur Sikhism's very first and own Naked sadhu..wow...that was perhaps the only missing link..ha ha and now we have it..a Sikh can reach that spiritual a height that he/she discards clothes too...Now I KNOW why the SGPC paid for Guru ka Langgar at Maha Kumbh Mela in 2013 to feed the thousands of Naked sadhus...because the SGPC NOW is in the able "hands" of the SPIRITUAL ONES ....and they are trying to re-establish that missing link with the Saffron coloured Bhagwans and all.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I give up... I guess if Sikhi is what you guys say then I am not Sikh because I believe (know) inside that I am more than my physical shell.

According to you I must be athiest if in belief to be 'correct' Sikh even though vast majority of Sikhs believe in and strive for the spiritual that I am having a hard time to explain to you... But that I know exists.

So since I can't not believe in something that I have glimpsed myself, and I could never be athiest and to you guys the physical is all there is to Sikhi... It's all about getting along with the neighbours so to speak.... So in light of that revelation I have decided to not take Amrit in Sept.

I guess I am not Sikh in belief according to you so I should not become Khalsa if what I believe is not 'true' Sikhi.

And to me if it's all just about living a swell physical life with others and then ceasing to exist, I can't follow that belief... So I guess I will once again embark upon a journey to find where I belong. But this idea of Sikhi without spirituality is not for me. I am not and never was an athiest. And I guess I should no longer consider myself Sikh either.

I'll leave my account open for a day or so to check IMs from a few ppl I talk to on here and then I'll make my way somewhere else.

Regards...

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Sat sri akaal Akasha ji ,

This forum should be named as "Atheistphilosophy.net"

and its always spiritually uplifting to stay away from here It really sucks to argue with Someone Spiritually Dead .




all i wanna say is summed up by Kabir ji ,


ਰਾਮ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਗਾਂਠਿ ਨ ਖੋਲ੍ਹ੍ਹ ॥ राम पदारथु पाइ कै कबीरा गांठि न खोल्ह ॥ Rām paḏārath pā▫e kai kabīrā gāʼnṯẖ na kẖolĥ.
The Treasure of the Lord is obtained, O Kabeer, but do not undo its knot.

ਨਹੀ ਪਟਣੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਰਖੂ ਨਹੀ ਗਾਹਕੁ ਨਹੀ ਮੋਲੁ ॥੨੩॥ नही पटणु नही पारखू नही गाहकु नही मोलु ॥२३॥ Nahī pataṇ nahī pārkẖū nahī gāhak nahī mol. ||23||
There is no market to sell it, no appraiser, no customer, and no price. ||23||

 

[Ambarsaria]

(Ambarsaria Ji: insert whatever word you want to you use for spiritual... I am using spiritual not to try and define that specific 'word' as having a specific definition but it is the word I closest associate with the state I am trying to convey... does that make sense? --- Let's not get focused on semantics of the actual word. You know that I mean..... the nonphysical part of us that trancsends the physical... that bit of us which is the 'I AM' the 'Doer' the 'Experiencer' - the bit that is actually us, our essence... not the flesh, nor the cells that make it up, nor the proteins that make them up, or the molecules, or atoms, or electrons, quarks etc... I mean the bit of us that exists beyond all of that! The conscious, the aware part (and dont start with the definition of consciousness too lol same thing!! the bit that experiences haha) That's what I mean when I say 'spiritual' I don't care about different definitions of the actual word. I just don't know what else to call it because no matter what word I try to use, you will try to define it into some limited sense of definition. Yet I know exactly what it is I am trying to describe, the state, the 'being' that I am trying to convey...) *ok....breathe Akasha.... LOL* Did that make sense???

Akasha ji thanks for your post. I could not find a post that I did a bit ago. It related to how beyond physical we continue at spiritual level from the past and do so in the future. So I do not know where I am being put into in terms of Camp 1 or Camp 2 as at the start of the thread. I believe I conveyed that a soul as a wanderer that just juxtaposes from past monkey , to present human and future snake as a whole is not in line with my understanding through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We are part of many in the past and continuing present and we will leave ourselves in many present and into the future via not only humans but all else that we interact with. This is what spirituality means to me and beyond immediate genetics of siblings and stuff, it is all non-physical.

I hope that clarifies for you where I come from as some times posts and words seem to be taken as positions versus explanations at times not well expressed or understood.

Hope it helps you and Sikhism is not abrupt about now I am a Sikh and now I am not, so we all need to make and understand our own relationship to guidance or teachings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I strongly disagree with all who call it this is it and we either achieve union/mukti/enlightenment, etc., or we are dead meat forever. For me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is just not that. It teaches you to avail you of the opportunity but it certainly i snot be all and end all from a lifespan perspective as many a people postulate here or other places.

Sat Sri Akal and appreciate your effort and posts.

PS: Akasha ji be rest assured that I am not here to oppose for opposition sake or win an argument. I simply feel blessed that I can share and if only it could be of some positive use to someone, specially much younger than me. No acknowledgment required or expected. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[japjisahib04]

Mai Bhaag Kaur Sikhism's very first and own Naked sadhu..wow...that was perhaps the only missing link..ha ha and now we have it..a Sikh can reach that spiritual a height that he/she discards clothes too...Now I KNOW why the SGPC paid for Guru ka Langgar at Maha Kumbh Mela in 2013 to feed the thousands of Naked sadhus...because the SGPC NOW is in the able "hands" of the SPIRITUAL ONES ....and they are trying to re-establish that missing link with the Saffron coloured Bhagwans and all.

Strange, I am trying to decipher who is 'eka mai' and which jugat she married (is guru sahib teaching us marketing) and gave birth to three sons, and who are these ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ approved in His court - is guru sahib referring to three physical sons who are approved in His court or referring to ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ godly virtues which dominates.

Akasha Jee it is the 'surat' which listens and guide and not our physical body

 

[Luckysingh]

Akasha ji, You shouldn't regard what anyone on here says to help you decide your sikhi.

ALL you have to do is READ the gurbani.
and IF the gurbani speaks to you and you can relate to it spiritually,then you know where to go.

You will not learn more than a few ounces of spirituality from anyone here, or anywhere else for that matter.
Spirituality ALL comes 'antarghat' and from within you.

When you meditate and jap naam with your MIND (not your tongue as most of them on here think! ), then you will experience the REAL shabad, akath katha(unspoken word), amrit and much much more that gurbani talks about.
It has to be experienced to be understood.
You will even identify exactly where your Consciousness sits in your body, where your soul's spiritual heart is, where the jyot and dasam duar manifest.....etc..

and No matter what anyone says on here,.. MAYA consists of 3 attributes or 3 gunas (satogun,rajogun,tamogun)
and the ONLY way to go beyond these is Spiritually..........period!


whatever you choose, the choice is yours, at the end of the day.
I participate in some deep spiritual talks elsewhere with other gurmukhs. I can let you know via pm if you need more details.....just let me know !

 

[aristotle]

and No matter what anyone says on here,.. MAYA consists of 3 attributes or 3 gunas (satogun,rajogun,tamogun)

Isn't that a statement in itself?

 

[aristotle]

Sat sri akaal Akasha ji ,

This forum should be named as "Atheistphilosophy.net"

and its always spiritually uplifting to stay away from here .

...and yet you are here

 

[Luckysingh]

Isn't that a statement in itself?

Yes, I believe it is.
Do you understand MAYA to consist of some other attributes ??
Maybe I missed something ?

 

[aristotle]

Well, I think the discussion has strayed far beyond its meaning.
In my belief, being spiritual does not necessarily mean you have to believe in miracles or magic. Spirituality as a word is implicated in a wide number of ways, the word represents different things to different people. IMO Vedic or Dharmic terms (in the sense in which they are commonly used) do not do full justice to Sikh spirituality, and nor does the Abrahamic theology, for that matter. Perhaps we read too much into the metaphors of Gurbani and miss the miss the real meaning, or we want to interpret Gurbani in the mindset we have been raised on, a porridge of faiths, which it is not.

 

[aristotle]

Yes, I believe it is.
Do you understand MAYA to consist of some other attributes ??
Maybe I missed something ?

If that is what you believe, I do not want to argue on that.
But from what I understand, the Rajo/Tamo/Sato Guna philosophy of Maya is an inherently Hindu concept (nothing wrong in that though), the Sikh concept of Maya is a little different.
If the Hindu concept is to 'avoid the pond', the Sikh way is to 'blossom forth from the pond like a Lotus does, unattached to the mud inside the pond'. That is how I think, at least.

 

[Luckysingh]

Well, I think the discussion has strayed far beyond its meaning.
In my belief, being spiritual does not necessarily mean you have to believe in miracles or magic. Spirituality as a word is implicated in a wide number of ways, the word represents different things to different people. IMO Vedic or Dharmic terms (in the sense in which they are commonly used) do not do full justice to Sikh spirituality, and nor does the Abrahamic theology, for that matter. Perhaps we read too much into the metaphors of Gurbani and miss the miss the real meaning, or we want to interpret Gurbani in the mindset we have been raised on, a porridge of faiths, which it is not.

The above is just your way of saying ''I don't know what spirituality is and it can't apply to me''

Do you think that gurus and sikhi condemned all ancient scriptures or was it the practices being performed by the so called translators and readers ?