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Debate: Spiritual Vs Non Spiritual Interpretation Of Gurbani

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Sherdil

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Ambarsaria said:
4. If we were to assign atma to the living then given our limited knowledge we can call it the gene pool.
  • I will go even as far as to say it is "Parmatma" but it is not limited to the earth but is rather part of the Universe as one truth "Parmatma".
5. How we get our atma becomes obvious.

  • It is the gene pool truths and spark that let us come to be.
Genes determine the phenotype (the physical you), which is merely the kapra. This kapra is made out of the same fabric that makes up the earth and stars (carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.).


Who you are goes beyond your genes. If we were to clone someone, chances are that the clone would not have the same personality, likes or dislikes as the original person.


Therefore, the aatma goes beyond our genes. It is that thing which is thinking. It is aware of itself and the world around it. It has a sense of haumai (I am).


The French Philosopher, Rene Descartes summed it up in “I think, therefore I am”.
 
Nov 14, 2008
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Harmanpreet,

I am not at all appalled at your rudeness but my question is why are you so rude? Where does this rudeness in you sprout from?

We always have disagreements here but there are ways to express them in a constructive manner.

Please give it a go the next time.


Thanks.

Tejwant Singh

I m sorry ,i had no such intentions , but Tejwant ji that lady Ek Onkaar Kaur answered your questions with such politeness ,even accepted that she may be wrong but thats her View , and you are saying that she has a " Broker " and blah blah ... even when she said her only Guru is Guru Granth Sahib ji

"This is a journey that I take every day - learning and growing. I respect that people see Gurbani in very different lights, and I would never say one way is right and one way is wrong. I truly believe that everyone finds what they need in the Guru Granth Sahib. That is part of what makes the Guru Granth Sahib a True Guru. Not a book, or a scripture, but a Living Teacher. Everyone finds there what they need.

For whatever reason, this is what I have found"



let us all get back to topic
 

chazSingh

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atma (being) can reflect on both the spiritual level as that part of you which is you... the soul or the essence... the 'I AM' for lack of a better word... and also in the physical.

you've got me thinking quite a bit...
i see the Atma as a molicule of the whole...an illusory molicule of the whole that seems to be there due to the Ego...
in reality, beyond the Ego that gives us the sense of 'I' 'Me' 'You' only the paramatma exists...

Similarly, paramatma is both... since God is both Creator AND Creation, formless and with thousands of forms, separate and yet pervading everything.... then paramatma would be the formless all encompasing Unity of the Creator, and also the total sum of everything in form as well in both the spiritual 'soul or nonphysical' sense AND the physical (as in prior to the Big Bang when everything was condensed into ONE).

i like your description...all is paramatma... :)

But the physical level is not all there is... true, we can never know or understand the wonders of the Creator, but we can experience on a small level the spirituality... we can glimpse into that state. Just because we don't understand something does not mean we should ignore it

We can definately glimpse into that state :) all within our very being...it's pretty mind blowing, one is sat on the sofa doing Simran and all of a sudden the impossible manifests...
i sense from your writings you experience this also :)
 

Harkiran Kaur

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I think we are starting to diverge into two topics here.... can we start a new thread for the anand sahib translation and keep this one on discussion of physical vs nonphysical?? Other than that I am loving the conversations we are having! And we have managed to keep it (mostly) tame.

:kaurfacepalm:
 

Harkiran Kaur

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you've got me thinking quite a bit...
i see the Atma as a molicule of the whole...an illusory molicule of the whole that seems to be there due to the Ego...
in reality, beyond the Ego that gives us the sense of 'I' 'Me' 'You' only the paramatma exists...

When I say the 'I AM' I am not talking about Akaska or Chazsingh... as that is EGO. These parts we play are only characters in the play and these physical bodies are just costumes. The 'I AM' I am referring to is THE 'I AM' the actor who is playing the characters. And who is the actor? Pg 736 SGGS tells us that the one who stages the play is also ALL of the characters.

There is a reson I keep using the quote about when one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his 'OWN SELF' and that 'HE IS ME' what more is there to do or to know? (That was paraphrased obviously). :kaurkhalsaflagblue:
 

chazSingh

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When I say the 'I AM' I am not talking about Akaska or Chazsingh... as that is EGO. These parts we play are only characters in the play and these physical bodies are just costumes. The 'I AM' I am referring to is THE 'I AM' the actor who is playing the characters. And who is the actor? Pg 736 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji tells us that the one who stages the play is also ALL of the characters.

There is a reson I keep using the quote about when one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his 'OWN SELF' and that 'HE IS ME' what more is there to do or to know? (That was paraphrased obviously). :kaurkhalsaflagblue:

i see what you mean...if all is god then the 'I AM' is the paramatma...the only 'I AM' that there is, and the only 'I AM there will ever be...

All other 'I AM's are the illusory dualistic nature created by the Ego, that makes us think we are a unique entity Seperate to God...

As described so beautifully in the shabad below, taken from the shabad that was listed in earlier posts...
the one who seeks, realises he was seeking himself :)

hope the above makes sense...my descriptive vocabulary suffers from time to time :)

Āṯmā parāṯamā eko karai.
His soul and the Supreme Soul become one.

ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਰੈ ॥੧॥
Anṯar kī ḏubiḏẖā anṯar marai. ||1||
The duality of the inner mind is overcome. ||1||
 
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Harkiran Kaur

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i see what you mean...if all is god then the 'I AM' is the paramatma...the only 'I AM' that there is, and the only 'I AM there will ever be...

All other 'I AM's are the illusory dualistic nature created by the Ego, that makes us think we are a unique entity Seperate to God...

As described so beautifully in the shabad below, taken from the shabad that was listed in earlier posts...
the one who seeks, realises he was seeking himself :)

hope the above makes sense...my descriptive vocabulary suffers from time to time :)

Āṯmā parāṯamā eko karai.
His soul and the Supreme Soul become one.

ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਰੈ ॥੧॥
Anṯar kī ḏubiḏẖā anṯar marai. ||1||
The duality of the inner mind is overcome. ||1||


yup! At least in my thoughts!

And usually when people contemplate the death of the EGO they think that means all goes black and we cease to exist. However, if you were an actor in a play, when the play is over and you remove the costume, was all memory of the time you were the character erased? Did it just go black and you cease to exist? Nope... so the death of the EGO is not the loss of yourself... but more waking up from amnesia and realizing and remembering ALL selves! Hence... death is an illusion.

In order to reach the true home of your soul when you die, you must conquer death while still alive... how better than to realize that it is an illusion?!
 

kggr001

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yup! At least in my thoughts!

And usually when people contemplate the death of the EGO they think that means all goes black and we cease to exist. However, if you were an actor in a play, when the play is over and you remove the costume, was all memory of the time you were the character erased? Did it just go black and you cease to exist? Nope... so the death of the EGO is not the loss of yourself... but more waking up from amnesia and realizing and remembering ALL selves! Hence... death is an illusion.

In order to reach the true home of your soul when you die, you must conquer death while still alive... how better than to realize that it is an illusion?!

Your post reminded me of a shabad I read few month's ago on Sikhwiki, while I was reading about Bhagat Sheikh Farid ji's life.

SGGS Page 1377

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਹਾੜੈ ਧਨ ਵਰੀ ਸਾਹੇ ਲਏ ਲਿਖਾਇ ॥ जितु दिहाड़ै धन वरी साहे लए लिखाइ ॥
Jiṯ ḏihāṛai ḏẖan varī sāhe la▫e likẖā▫e.
The day of the bride's wedding is pre-ordained.

ਮਲਕੁ ਜਿ ਕੰਨੀ ਸੁਣੀਦਾ ਮੁਹੁ ਦੇਖਾਲੇ ਆਇ ॥ मलकु जि कंनी सुणीदा मुहु देखाले आइ ॥
Malak jė kannī suṇīḏā muhu ḏekẖāle ā▫e.
On that day, the Messenger of Death, of whom she had only heard, comes and shows its face.

ਜਿੰਦੁ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਕਢੀਐ ਹਡਾ ਕੂ ਕੜਕਾਇ ॥ जिंदु निमाणी कढीऐ हडा कू कड़काइ ॥
Jinḏ nimāṇī kadẖī▫ai hadā kū kaṛkā▫e.
It breaks the bones of the body and pulls the helpless soul out.

ਸਾਹੇ ਲਿਖੇ ਨ ਚਲਨੀ ਜਿੰਦੂ ਕੂੰ ਸਮਝਾਇ ॥ साहे लिखे न चलनी जिंदू कूं समझाइ ॥
Sāhe likẖe na cẖalnī jinḏū kūʼn samjẖā▫e.
That pre-ordained time of marriage cannot be avoided. Explain this to your soul.

ਜਿੰਦੁ ਵਹੁਟੀ ਮਰਣੁ ਵਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਸੀ ਪਰਣਾਇ ॥ जिंदु वहुटी मरणु वरु लै जासी परणाइ ॥
Jinḏ vahutī maraṇ var lai jāsī parṇā▫e.
The soul is the bride, and death is the groom. He will marry her and take her away.

ਆਪਣ ਹਥੀ ਜੋਲਿ ਕੈ ਕੈ ਗਲਿ ਲਗੈ ਧਾਇ ॥ आपण हथी जोलि कै कै गलि लगै धाइ ॥
Āpaṇ hathī jol kai kai gal lagai ḏẖā▫e.
After the body sends her away with its own hands, whose neck will it embrace?

ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਪੁਰਸਲਾਤ ਕੰਨੀ ਨ ਸੁਣੀ ਆਇ ॥ वालहु निकी पुरसलात कंनी न सुणी आइ ॥
vālahu nikī puraslāṯ kannī na suṇī ā▫e.
The bridge to hell is narrower than a hair; haven't you heard of it with your ears?

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਕਿੜੀ ਪਵੰਦੀਈ ਖੜਾ ਨ ਆਪੁ ਮੁਹਾਇ ॥੧॥ फरीदा किड़ी पवंदीई खड़ा न आपु मुहाइ ॥१॥
Farīḏā kiṛī pavaʼnḏī▫ī kẖaṛā na āp muhā▫e. ||1||
Fareed, the call has come; be careful now - don't let yourself be robbed. ||1||
 

Ambarsaria

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Akasha ji it is perhaps time to count the piles of beans on spiritual vs. non-spiritiual aspects of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

A. In observational or non-spiritual as to be classified as wisdom/observational science:

  1. 100,000s of skies and much discovered in the latest but no end ("Lakh agasa agass ..)
  2. All is one element ("Ek noor teh sub jug upjia...)
  3. The more one discovers the more to be found (examples of vedas, koran, etc.)
  4. All is transformational all the time
Spiritual: Spirirual teacher through metaphors for the different levels of experiences, folklore and beliefs of the days as held by religious slaves or religious doctrines

  • End objective an unshackled spiritual Sikh without blind faiths, illogicals
Of course I stand corrected but that is what I have seen so far in translating Sidh Gosht, Sukhmani Sahib, Salok Sheikh Farid ji, parts of Assa di Vaar, draft Japji Sahib, Kirtan Sohila, and some other shabads and parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. All this more for my lay understanding and not pretending to be a scholar or the authority.


Sat Sri Akal.:peacesign:
 

Ishna

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i see what you mean...if all is god then the 'I AM' is the paramatma...the only 'I AM' that there is, and the only 'I AM there will ever be...

All other 'I AM's are the illusory dualistic nature created by the Ego, that makes us think we are a unique entity Seperate to God...

As described so beautifully in the shabad below, taken from the shabad that was listed in earlier posts...
the one who seeks, realises he was seeking himself :)

hope the above makes sense...my descriptive vocabulary suffers from time to time :)

Āṯmā parāṯamā eko karai.
His soul and the Supreme Soul become one.

ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਰੈ ॥੧॥
Anṯar kī ḏubiḏẖā anṯar marai. ||1||
The duality of the inner mind is overcome. ||1||

Chazji, can you please reference?

Many thanks.
 

japjisahib04

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Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Page 1377

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਹਾੜੈ ਧਨ ਵਰੀ ਸਾਹੇ ਲਏ ਲਿਖਾਇ ॥ जितु दिहाड़ै धन वरी साहे लए लिखाइ ॥
Jiṯ ḏihāṛai ḏẖan varī sāhe la▫e likẖā▫e.
The day of the bride's wedding is pre-ordained.

ਮਲਕੁ ਜਿ ਕੰਨੀ ਸੁਣੀਦਾ ਮੁਹੁ ਦੇਖਾਲੇ ਆਇ ॥ मलकु जि कंनी सुणीदा मुहु देखाले आइ ॥
Malak jė kannī suṇīḏā muhu ḏekẖāle ā▫e.
On that day, the Messenger of Death, of whom she had only heard, comes and shows its face.

ਜਿੰਦੁ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਕਢੀਐ ਹਡਾ ਕੂ ਕੜਕਾਇ ॥ जिंदु निमाणी कढीऐ हडा कू कड़काइ ॥
Jinḏ nimāṇī kadẖī▫ai hadā kū kaṛkā▫e.
It breaks the bones of the body and pulls the helpless soul out.

ਸਾਹੇ ਲਿਖੇ ਨ ਚਲਨੀ ਜਿੰਦੂ ਕੂੰ ਸਮਝਾਇ ॥ साहे लिखे न चलनी जिंदू कूं समझाइ ॥
Sāhe likẖe na cẖalnī jinḏū kūʼn samjẖā▫e.
That pre-ordained time of marriage cannot be avoided. Explain this to your soul.

ਜਿੰਦੁ ਵਹੁਟੀ ਮਰਣੁ ਵਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਸੀ ਪਰਣਾਇ ॥ जिंदु वहुटी मरणु वरु लै जासी परणाइ ॥
Jinḏ vahutī maraṇ var lai jāsī parṇā▫e.
The soul is the bride, and death is the groom. He will marry her and take her away.

ਆਪਣ ਹਥੀ ਜੋਲਿ ਕੈ ਕੈ ਗਲਿ ਲਗੈ ਧਾਇ ॥ आपण हथी जोलि कै कै गलि लगै धाइ ॥
Āpaṇ hathī jol kai kai gal lagai ḏẖā▫e.
After the body sends her away with its own hands, whose neck will it embrace?

ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਪੁਰਸਲਾਤ ਕੰਨੀ ਨ ਸੁਣੀ ਆਇ ॥ वालहु निकी पुरसलात कंनी न सुणी आइ ॥
vālahu nikī puraslāṯ kannī na suṇī ā▫e.
The bridge to hell is narrower than a hair; haven't you heard of it with your ears?

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਕਿੜੀ ਪਵੰਦੀਈ ਖੜਾ ਨ ਆਪੁ ਮੁਹਾਇ ॥੧॥ फरीदा किड़ी पवंदीई खड़ा न आपु मुहाइ ॥१॥
Farīḏā kiṛī pavaʼnḏī▫ī kẖaṛā na āp muhā▫e. ||1||
Fareed, the call has come; be careful now - don't let yourself be robbed. ||1||
Surface meaning of above sabd reveals bhagat farid is narrating pessimistic state of mind but little efforts in understanding will show it is in fact of chardhi kala and of celebration and not death
 

japjisahib04

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Sahni ji,

Guru Fateh.

If you had read her response, you would have noticed that between her and our only Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, she has a demigod called Yogi Bhajan whose shenanigans I am quite familiar with but this is not the place nor the the time about them. I have no inclination to respond to her because it is not worth it.

My whole idea of interacting with her was not to challenge her interpretation but about her mindset and she fell right into it, while talking about her "Broker" to Ik Ong Kaar, Yogi Bhajan.

Once I asked Yogi about the mistranslation of Soch-Su_ch in the the second Pauri of Jap that he claimed as "Thinking" rather than as "Purity" as in the Hindu mindset by taking dips- Teeraths which in the 6th Pauri Guru Nanak also rejected. He told me that I was right but as he had been saying "Thinking" to these goreis and gorieans for so many years, it is impossible for him to say anything else but "thinking". So, this is the way Yogi approached the business model of 3HO which btw is a very successful entity. Its security branch called Akal Security has gotten billions of dollars in US government contracts. The people who were responsible for his very successful cereal business based in Oregon became monas immediately after his death and took over the company which went to the court and eventually got sold to another company.

Bibi ji, Yogi's wife was trying to get trademark for "Yogi Tea", the spring board of all his businesses for herself because Yogi had left everything to the trust. She was successful in it and has lent the name to a multinational.

For me, 3HO is a business model where they use Sikhi Baana as a bait to attract people in their pyramid scheme of self employed start ups like Herballife and others but they have one leg up on others. They sell all those Haldi-Turmeric-capsules and other things after they have trained people to parrot in order to set up shops for "Kundalini Yoga & Meditation" as the integral parts of Sikhi and with their Baana. This is the saddest part of all this is that it is all done as part of Sikhi which is not only false but also very misleading. But, they are making use of Sikhi and raking millions as many derababas in India and in other countries.

3HO is like the Mormon church. Both are business models and both have demigods that people worship and both of these demigods were famous for their lecherous habits.

Neither of them have anything to do with breeding goodness within.

Thanks for taking the time to read on Sikhnet.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
Tejwant Jee

Yes. Though she claims her Guru is Guru Granth Sahib but follows Yogi Bhajan's advice on simran, meditation, kundalini and even understanding of gurbani. I had noticed Yogi Bhajan really had a God gift chrisma to mobilize and convert thousands but instead of connecting people with sabd guru, he could have done wonders but become victim of his own mahima and result is in front of us. Guru truely advise us, ' ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆਂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥ with God gift chrisma, resources, without divine wisdom, there remains pitch of darkness.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Surface meaning of above sabd reveals bhagat farid is narrating pessimistic state of mind but little efforts in understanding will show it is in fact of chardhi kala and of celebration and not death

How did you get that out that!??

To me it is saying that since we can never know the day we will leave this physical life, we should not squander this chance we have. It's saying that death can not be avoided... as in we all eventually die (physically) and that if we do not use this chance the 'soul' will experience regret, so it's telling him to be careful not to be robbed of the time that he has been given by engaging in useless pursuits. This human form is special and rare, and we have been given this chance to meet the creator, so we shouldn't waste it.

To me it's just a reminder... not a celebration
 

Ambarsaria

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How did you get that out that!??

To me it is saying that since we can never know the day we will leave this physical life, we should not squander this chance we have. It's saying that death can not be avoided... as in we all eventually die (physically) and that if we do not use this chance the 'soul' will experience regret, so it's telling him to be careful not to be robbed of the time that he has been given by engaging in useless pursuits. This human form is special and rare, and we have been given this chance to meet the creator, so we shouldn't waste it.

To me it's just a reminder... not a celebration
Akasha ji I agree with you on this. japjisahib04 ji has different take on it. The message if listened to can be positive for going forward or negative if one tries to use it as a test of how bad we have been. If one lives into the future then it is positive and if one keeps looking into the past it is negative.

For me strict message is one of reflection as you stated. If the reflection leads you to believe that you already pass the litmus test of the reflection then it is that you are already in a good state, "Chardi Kala" but otherwise you need to pay heed to be in "Chardi Kala".

A wonderful rendition of this shabad is in my understanding posts in the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bani-sheikh-farid/38330-salok-sheikh-farid-ji-1-12-a.html

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Tejwant Jee

Yes. Though she claims her Guru is Guru Granth Sahib but follows Yogi Bhajan's advice on simran, meditation, kundalini and even understanding of gurbani. I had noticed Yogi Bhajan really had a God gift chrisma to mobilize and convert thousands but instead of connecting people with sabd guru, he could have done wonders but become victim of his own mahima and result is in front of us. Guru truely advise us, ' ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆਂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥ with God gift chrisma, resources, without divine wisdom, there remains pitch of darkness.

Sahni Sahib,

Guru Fateh.

You hit the nail right on the head. Yogi Bhajan is their demigod. When he was weak and unwell after a kidney transplant in India where it was bought because he could not get it quick enough in the US, his chair was next to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where he sat. After people doing Matha tek to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they did the same to Yogi Bhajan. In their "Ardaas", his name has been added for a long time.

Yogi Bhajan was a very charismatic person. He also did a lot of good things when he arrived here in the late 60's. He took many people off the drugs during the Hippy era and brought them to his fold with yoga as his calling card. He admitted himself to my family that he had no idea about yoga because he was just a Government worker. So he made up a story of some Guru who had taught him Kundalini to put the icing on the business model of his.

There is no doubt, that he did a lot of good at that time unlike OSHO's Rajneesh where free open sex, abortions and drugs were common in Oregon. Rajneesh also translated Jap, I am sure you must be aware of. I know lots of people in Latin America and Europe who still flock towards OSHO and go to Pune to his Ashram without having an inkling that he and his chelas tried to poison the water of a city in Oregon to get some permits approved. They also do not know that Rajneesh was deported from here rather than facing jail, the deal that was struck but his chelas, among them his lady secretary faced jail time. The most interesting part of Rajneesh is that this was not even his real name. He was a Jaini, born as Chandra Mohan Jain and later on called himself Bhagwan Rajneesh. And you know the Jaini theology quite well.

The same kind of route Yogi Bhajan took but in a much better way. Unlike Rajneesh who used his charisma and snake oil, Yogi Bhajan made those drug addicts self-sufficient by creating boiler rooms all over the west coast to sell Copy machines', Fax machines' and other kinds of toners 10 times the retail price. He created a sales pitch where his salespeople only talked to the secretaries and enticed them with gifts. His go to man was an American Sikh named HarJiwan Singh Khalsa who managed all these boiler rooms. They made millions but eventually, things got caught up and the whole operation was closed down after the raids by the government and HarJiwan ended up spendig some time behind bars. One of his other chelas was involved in smuggling Marijuana and spent some time in the prison too. And there are many worse things about Yogi's life that are not worth discussing.

The reason, I have mentioned the above is to agree with you that it is a business model where “fairy tale spirituality” is sold under the guise of Sikhi as the main intangible ingredient, with the tangible business plans which consist of “Mantras, Meditation and Kundalini Yoga stores” as the Boiler Room business was closed down forcefully and one more important thing to mention here is that 3HO works with the changing times. 3HO was the first one to establish Call Centres in India and then spread them to other countries.

Kudos to Ambarsaria ji in his post to Akasha ji to decipher "Spiritual and non- Spiritual" from the Sikhi viewpoint with the quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is what we all have to do because Sikhi is not just about "me feel good" thingie but "me do good in order to feel good" way of life.

Now, the most dangerous part is that they are translating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, under the same mindset which has nothing to do with Gurbani as you must have noticed, but they have a captive audience among themselves around the world to generate funds and keep on doing the same.

This is the reason, the Sikh honchos like the SGPC and others who have given their stamp of approval to the English Translation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Sant Singh Khalsa who is a Gora Sikh (and his translation is the most misleading) make things more dangerous. They should rather invest on Sikh Scholars like IJ Singh and others in the diaspora who are fluent in multiple languages to translate the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to stop this very dangerous and non Sikhi incursion into Sikhi.

The case in point is my interaction with EK Ong Kaar Kaur. She posted a picture of a Chinese Sikh and a Hispanic Sikh who translated her Jap in English to those languages on her FB page. I offered her to do the same in Portuguese for which she was very happy about it and here is part of her message,” Have you read the translation of Japji a Sahib that Yogiji guided me to do? If you do not have a copy, please send me your mailing address and I will be grateful to send it to you. You can read it for yourself and decide whether you think it is an appropriate translation. Then, if you do like it and you would like to use it as a base to do a translation in Portuguese, it would be an honor to have you do so”.

The reason I am posting this is to show you that all the so called Sikhi mindset has been constipatedly coming out of Yogi Bhajan’s mind. She is sending me the book.

Finally, you are absolutely right. “ Guru truely advise us, ' ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆਂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥ with God gift charisma, resources, without divine wisdom, there remains pitch of darkness”.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 

japjisahib04

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Jan 22, 2005
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kuwait
Akasha Ji

It all depend upon state of mind, to either dig and search divine gems or look otherwise. Unlike the surface meanings, 'the day of birth, time and date of death is also written. On that day, the Messenger of Death, of whom she had only heard, comes and shows its face. It breaks the bones of the body and pulls the helpless soul out. That pre-ordained time of marriage cannot be avoided. Explain this to your soul.' How sad and pessimistic sabd looks like? Plus there is no truth in it as with advance medical technologies now life span has been increased. Otherwise what is spiritual or anything to learn for us, in this sabd?

Whereas bhagat farid is not trying to frighten us through this sabd but is telling us 'ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਹਾੜੈ ਧਨ' the day 'dhan' my intellect wears the robe of honor - the 'vari' the spiritual wisdom, that day is auspicious and he sure short attains oneness with God. This is called saha sanjog(auspicious marriage) marrying with God.

ਮਲਕੁ ਜਿ ਕੰਨੀ ਸੁਣੀਦਾ - now ਮਲਕੁ is not messenger of death but King. Fareed in a ramaz is telling that the most compassionate, graceful Satguru, I had heard ਮੁਹੁ ਦੇਖਾਲੇ ਆਇ ॥ the day of my acquintance is finally come. And ਜਿੰਦੁ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਕਢੀਐ after wearing robe of divine wisdom my egoistic ਜਿੰਦੁ is now turned ਨਿਮਾਣੀ humble. And ਹਡਾ ਕੂ ਕੜਕਾਇ - the deep rooted mind set (within my bone) is now elevated.

You see yourselves it is not the physical death, but celebration of merger with God while living.
 

kggr001

SPNer
Nov 3, 2011
123
129
Amsterdam
Plus there is no truth in it as with advance medical technologies now life has span has been increased. Otherwise what is spiritual or anything to learn for us, in this sabd?

Everything happens according to lords will. If one gets medically saved then that is destined to happen. However everyone dies at some point and that for me is the pre-ordained time.

I agree with you that Bhagat Farid ji is not trying to frighten us, I see this message more as a reminder. When I'm reading through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I find alot of similar messages, the Guru's and Bhagats do warn us about the same thing over and over.

This all, beside the lord is nothing more then an illusion, realize the illusion and be Mukht.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Dec 21, 2010
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Folks I am personally little saddened by the unnecessary talk about Yogi Bhajan in this thread. If people have beefs they should contact the sites that are part of his legacy and provide insights. Would what they want to say be published I have no idea. Here it almost reeks of unnecessary inert jealousy and from what I have known is demeaning to the spirit of SPN.

Jealousy, bad mouthing dead people no matter how bad. Here we don't do much justice. If needed, some more separate focused threads with objective discussions on merits and outcomes perhaps may be appropriate. Even then perhaps it will be energy wasted and not very Sikhi centric. I have fallen in this trap at times and regretted it later and tried to pull myself out of it. If people are so caring for Sikhi and want to address all bad done by all, they don't need to even leave Punjab as there is much fodder to keep us busy beyond disgust. Techniques of Sikhi "bana"/dress-persona hiding lot of bad actions is nothing peculiar and it continues on scales unheard of in Punjab today all the way from the leadership of Sikhs both religious and political. Let us focus on the root of Sikhi before we complain about grafts imperfect on the Sikhi tree.

Akasha ji has kept up with the very wise and the learned in this thread and let us give her credit and support her learning as we learn as well.

Sorry it is little off topic but I don't feel good about sentiments and approach and hijacking in some posts in this thread.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Dec 21, 2010
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kggr001 ji thanks for your post.
Everything happens according to lords will. If one gets medically saved then that is destined to happen. However everyone dies at some point and that for me is the pre-ordained time.

........

This all, beside the lord is nothing more then an illusion, realize the illusion and be Mukht.
I want to suggest another dimension to your highlighted expressions. Even mool mantar guides us away from time by stating that the creator is time unaffected. Is it time that is pre-ordained based on our definitions as humans of days, nights, weeks, months and years or is it a system that has some interactions that may be time independent? If you take the dimension of time out you will see most is much better explained and so is life itself. The events like birth and death and their timing becomes irrelevant.

Creation is a system with parameters in play that control transformations slow or fast or very slow and very fast. We are part of an intertwined system with set of perhaps eternal rules that we hardly understand. Possibly the reason we spend all our life through surprises. Creator did not define lifespans but perhaps it is the interactions of life forms with all non life and life within and without that determines a lot.

So for me time is one of the blinders that we put upon us and it limits us and does not free us. A simple tree may live for hundreds of years while many life forms may be in an accelerated cycle of living, reproduction and dying as we may measure in time.

The I or me in us is so powerfully embedded with time that it overdrives much like,

  • Let us quickly do this
  • Let us find a short cut for this or that
  • Let us merge with God/creator before we die
  • Whole bunch of other nonsense which perhaps in creation or the universe has little to no meaning
  • Could we really prepare for when the life ends on the earth like the dinosaurs as a wayward asteroid or a bigger body or wave pulse royally destroys life as we know it
  • "Akal moorat" and "ajuni" are lot more than timeless as measured in days or years or generations
    • That is what we are in the middle of as a collective
  • When one recognizes all rather than parts lot of things like life, death, vegetarian (killing plant life) or non-vegetarian (additionally killing animal life) become no different
    • As we eat we get eaten and that is part of the collective that we are integral to
  • Transformation is the only constant and time is superfluous
    • Rate of transformation of different differently will always exist and to pinpoint all to 100% accuracy in human terms is simply futile
Thus if we unshackle ourselves from the weeds we will start seeing the bigger picture where there is no others but we all but one. If one starts seeing this I believe the search for mukti or union with the ultimate becomes irrelevant. However some may want to classify such a state as mukti and I am cool with that :faujasingh::mundabhangra::cheerleaders::mundahug:.
What our Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji guides us with is to think big and we continue to refuse and get bogged down in triviality.

Think not the small, think only the big and make our Guru ji proud. Call it spiritual or non-spiritual and it will hardly matter other than to one self by self limiting in needless hair splitting. Holistic or spiritual understanding rarely, if ever, comes from splitting, it comes mostly from joining. Don't create boxes of understanding but be aware of one big box and try to see. The big box has lot of handles on it if you look and there is hardly a need to compartmentalize it or break it into pieces.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: What will be the future of space travel. Not a person but self sufficient eco-systems from the smallest family units to communities which may or may not come back in anyone's life time but may do so thousands and thousands years later only to find no one left on earth :yellingsardarni:
:hopmad:. Where is everyone :meditatingsingh: Galaxy of Understandables :whistlingkudi::whislingmunda:

I just like this amateur video recording and composition of collages as it shows sounds coming from within regardless of the "bana"/dress or Sikh with hair or cut-hair on his head.
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/pPBnGpkR4Z0?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>
 
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japjisahib04

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Jan 22, 2005
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kuwait
I agree with you that Bhagat Farid ji is not trying to frighten us, I see this message more as a reminder. When I'm reading through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I find alot of similar messages, the Guru's and Bhagats do warn us about the same thing over and over.

This all, beside the lord is nothing more then an illusion, realize the illusion and be Mukht.
Here I disagree with you. All the sabd in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are written in a state of chardhi kala but due to lack of understanding, we are translating them in negative sense and as such pessimistic state.
 
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