Atheism Do You Believe In Waheguru

[buddhushah]

Spnadmin ji

IN Hinduism, yes. But in Sikhi?

asking from ignorance -- would the same argument be made for the buddhist belief in reincarnation/cycle of death and rebirth?

(to my limited understanding the Buddhist and Hindu views of the cycle are different -- where would the Sikhi view fit in?)

Akiva

analyse the above with that iconinic equation-[e=mc2].ALL MATTER AND ENERGY IS RECYCLED and he is the one who decided it,and only he, who can do it..yes ,we believe in WAHEGURU, one who created the first microest particle ,who was their before big bang,who decided h2+o will be water,o2 will carry life,how the earth will move the planets behave, dead mass will convert to petrol,which drivesthe engines of industry ,who put that superest computer half kg bowl,etc etc

 

[charanjit]

In relation to the post I think that the most important question is asked at the beginning “Do you believe in Waheguru?” that is the most important thing that needs to be addressed. The story itself is pretty sad and appeals to sentimental hogwash which many people are sadly fall prey to. The story appears to be one which tries to justify belief in something greater. For each story which tries to justify the existence and the need to believe in God/Waheguru, there are numerous others which justify the converse.
These appear to be stories by the feeble minded, that we tell ourselves so that we can delay action. It is just a fanciful story told by those that are fearful of death intended to give people hope that life after this life will be better and that your ills and woes will be dispelled with faith in this thing called God/Waheguru.
This story seems to imply that life here and now is interminably dull and dissatisfying and that one should seek consolance in a creator, in a mother and father. We are unable to deliver ourselves and therefore seek deliverance from another, one that is greater, one that knows more, God/Waheguru.
I was sent an email by SPN with the question “Do you believe in Waheguru?” and I thought finally some Sikhs appear to be asking relevant questions, rather than the daily mundane idiotic questions whether one should read Raag Mala, eat meat etc. The question “do you believe in Waheguru” is an excellent question and should be investigated by all!
Before going into the question, please note that any criticism that I make is not intended as personal criticism of anyone, but is intended as a criticism of myself, hence everyone as my decisions and experiences are not too different from others commenting on this site.
In response to the question itself, anything that I believe in is always going to be limited by my limited knowledge and limited experience. The more knowledge and experience I gain may add to my knowledge and experience, but still it remains limited for I appear to be finite and limited by my faculties. The Self is created by my experiences, through the Self I experience, hence any experience through a limited medium will always be limited and ignorant. The same will always be so in relation to whether I believe in Waheguru. I can never have the right answer. It is perhaps on the coming to the end of this search and then end of belief that one may know. Nanak came to an end. He dived in the river, and died to everything so that he may live. It is something no Sikh will ever be capable of doing as Sikhs are far too busy copying, and imitating and living life vicariously through others and their experiences.
Those that are posting on this website appear to be asking for guidance, asking whether this is mainstream, whether this or that is acceptable or not. I have no idea why you are asking a fellow idiot for guidance? If you yourself do not know, how is the fool that you have chosen to guide you going to know. If you yourself have no clue and need guidance then surely the person that you have selected to guide you is chosen out of your ignorance and therefore will always lead you up the same garden path that you have started on. [Not intended as personal criticism, it is an observation also of myself.]
Sikhs are in an incredible bad state, regurgitating the same nonsense for possibly hundreds of years. You choose either to become a Sikh or it has been chosen for you because of your family and supposed history. If you have chosen to become a Sikh then there was something terribly wrong with your life prior, and becoming a Sikh will not make it any better, it may however hide the gaping hole and emptiness in your life, but then you will be misguiding yourself, and lulling yourself to sleep with the repetition of a word which has no meaning whatsoever, and then you will claim that in the repetition of this word Waheguru you have achieved a higher state of consciousness, but really the constant repetition of any word will do the same, be it WAheguru, Allah, Ram or pad pad ding ding.
Now to the question “Do you believe in Waheguru?” To enquire into that question, you will possibly need to ask what is this thing Waheguru? And why do you want to believe in this thing? If I were to ask myself whether I believe in Waheguru, the answer would be yes in the past, however this was based upon the way I was brought up.
Today I would ask what is this thing Waheguru, where does it come from, and why do I want to believe in this thing. The only answers I know of are that this thing Waheguru is an aggregation of all the knowledge that I have collected whilst having been a Sikh (in the conventional sense). It is essentially a thing that has been created in my head from my all my experiences. It is based upon what my parents have told me, and what I have read. It is the thing that I have prayed to in the past. Looking back at this thing, it appears that it was in my imagination. My imagination is created by my experiences. I had no imagination until I started to record experiences as a baby or young child. It was something that was created in my head from my experiences and the experiences that others gave to me. Therefore, does this thing that was in my head actually exist? As far as I can tell it does not exist. It is matter. It is just as materialistic as anything else that is experienced. Yet I prayed to this dead thing!
In reality I created this thing which is called Waheguru. I created it, placed it on the mantelpiece, and then I started to pray to it for deliverance. In effect I am simply praying to the thing that I have created, that has come from the foolishness of the limited humans before me. Praying to God/Waheguru is perhaps the greatest egotistical thing that anyone can do, you are simply praying to something you have created, or thought has created.
Now to the question “why do I want to believe in this thing called Waheguru?” I can only say that one of the answers must be that we are unable to live our lives with vitality and freedom, we are unable to say what is right action, we are unable within ourselves to act rightly and therefore we depose responsibility for our lives and actions to this thing called Waheguru. We are therefore simply chasing our tales – unable to live our lives for ourselves we have created Waheguru, and then we seek guidance from this thing called Waheguru, which in effect is only us responding to ourselves, yet we think it is something greater. All sounds incredibly foolish to me! ???
Oh well. I bid you adieu and keep doing as you keep doing! (as I am pretty sure I may also continue in my foolish ignorant ways…who knows??)

 

[spskohli]

Philosophy apart, It is a beautiful piece of writing.

 

[ravneet_sb]

In relation to the post I think that the most important question is asked at the beginning “Do you believe in Waheguru?” that is the most important thing that needs to be addressed. The story itself is pretty sad and appeals to sentimental hogwash which many people are sadly fall prey to. The story appears to be one which tries to justify belief in something greater. For each story which tries to justify the existence and the need to believe in God/Waheguru, there are numerous others which justify the converse.
These appear to be stories by the feeble minded, that we tell ourselves so that we can delay action. It is just a fanciful story told by those that are fearful of death intended to give people hope that life after this life will be better and that your ills and woes will be dispelled with faith in this thing called God/Waheguru.
This story seems to imply that life here and now is interminably dull and dissatisfying and that one should seek consolance in a creator, in a mother and father. We are unable to deliver ourselves and therefore seek deliverance from another, one that is greater, one that knows more, God/Waheguru.
I was sent an email by SPN with the question “Do you believe in Waheguru?” and I thought finally some Sikhs appear to be asking relevant questions, rather than the daily mundane idiotic questions whether one should read Raag Mala, eat meat etc. The question “do you believe in Waheguru” is an excellent question and should be investigated by all!
Before going into the question, please note that any criticism that I make is not intended as personal criticism of anyone, but is intended as a criticism of myself, hence everyone as my decisions and experiences are not too different from others commenting on this site.
In response to the question itself, anything that I believe in is always going to be limited by my limited knowledge and limited experience. The more knowledge and experience I gain may add to my knowledge and experience, but still it remains limited for I appear to be finite and limited by my faculties. The Self is created by my experiences, through the Self I experience, hence any experience through a limited medium will always be limited and ignorant. The same will always be so in relation to whether I believe in Waheguru. I can never have the right answer. It is perhaps on the coming to the end of this search and then end of belief that one may know. Nanak came to an end. He dived in the river, and died to everything so that he may live. It is something no Sikh will ever be capable of doing as Sikhs are far too busy copying, and imitating and living life vicariously through others and their experiences.
Those that are posting on this website appear to be asking for guidance, asking whether this is mainstream, whether this or that is acceptable or not. I have no idea why you are asking a fellow idiot for guidance? If you yourself do not know, how is the fool that you have chosen to guide you going to know. If you yourself have no clue and need guidance then surely the person that you have selected to guide you is chosen out of your ignorance and therefore will always lead you up the same garden path that you have started on. [Not intended as personal criticism, it is an observation also of myself.]
Sikhs are in an incredible bad state, regurgitating the same nonsense for possibly hundreds of years. You choose either to become a Sikh or it has been chosen for you because of your family and supposed history. If you have chosen to become a Sikh then there was something terribly wrong with your life prior, and becoming a Sikh will not make it any better, it may however hide the gaping hole and emptiness in your life, but then you will be misguiding yourself, and lulling yourself to sleep with the repetition of a word which has no meaning whatsoever, and then you will claim that in the repetition of this word Waheguru you have achieved a higher state of consciousness, but really the constant repetition of any word will do the same, be it WAheguru, Allah, Ram or pad pad ding ding.
Now to the question “Do you believe in Waheguru?” To enquire into that question, you will possibly need to ask what is this thing Waheguru? And why do you want to believe in this thing? If I were to ask myself whether I believe in Waheguru, the answer would be yes in the past, however this was based upon the way I was brought up.
Today I would ask what is this thing Waheguru, where does it come from, and why do I want to believe in this thing. The only answers I know of are that this thing Waheguru is an aggregation of all the knowledge that I have collected whilst having been a Sikh (in the conventional sense). It is essentially a thing that has been created in my head from my all my experiences. It is based upon what my parents have told me, and what I have read. It is the thing that I have prayed to in the past. Looking back at this thing, it appears that it was in my imagination. My imagination is created by my experiences. I had no imagination until I started to record experiences as a baby or young child. It was something that was created in my head from my experiences and the experiences that others gave to me. Therefore, does this thing that was in my head actually exist? As far as I can tell it does not exist. It is matter. It is just as materialistic as anything else that is experienced. Yet I prayed to this dead thing!
In reality I created this thing which is called Waheguru. I created it, placed it on the mantelpiece, and then I started to pray to it for deliverance. In effect I am simply praying to the thing that I have created, that has come from the foolishness of the limited humans before me. Praying to God/Waheguru is perhaps the greatest egotistical thing that anyone can do, you are simply praying to something you have created, or thought has created.
Now to the question “why do I want to believe in this thing called Waheguru?” I can only say that one of the answers must be that we are unable to live our lives with vitality and freedom, we are unable to say what is right action, we are unable within ourselves to act rightly and therefore we depose responsibility for our lives and actions to this thing called Waheguru. We are therefore simply chasing our tales – unable to live our lives for ourselves we have created Waheguru, and then we seek guidance from this thing called Waheguru, which in effect is only us responding to ourselves, yet we think it is something greater. All sounds incredibly foolish to me! ???
Oh well. I bid you adieu and keep doing as you keep doing! (as I am pretty sure I may also continue in my foolish ignorant ways…who knows??)

Sat Sri Akaal,

There was a man

1st Generation was saint
2nd to 200th generation was cobbler, washerman, tailor etc.
201st generation was saint

Is it rebirth.
Thought cycle
re evoked
through
re production

Its mutation from animals through which 1st human than all humans have
appeared through
re production

Grandparents often witness genetic reflection of traits in children.

One can watch through minds open window, but not with a closed mind.



With open mind one can witness

Origin of Newton and Gravity
Gravity was existing but not word in this world

Origins of Muslim
Take your mind thought thousands year back,
when young one was thrown to desert from fertile lands,
the nature and natural law of land is just opposite,

Origin of Brahma and SaansKriti

After mutation,
communication was developed,
Architecture of breath appeared to human, communicationtool was formed "Saanskriti"
Breath was existing but not word in this world.


Cyclic, long cyclic, it appears and disappears, all in the hands of "NATURE"


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Sat Sri Akaal,

Please don't ask questions, no answers are available,
just expression of my own imagination.

First science is realized through imaginative sense.
than Science realize it through common sense,
that's re search always on.


One is formed of thought,

There are 84 lac channels of thought, yet to be scientifically proved.
governing the human mind,
a particular thought arrangement may reappear in a physical being.
through physical appearance may differ,
area of origin may differ.
is it re arrangement,
re in carnation
or
life after death,
yet to be scientifically explored.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji Ki Fateh

Ravneet ji,

Guru Fateh

Pardon my ignorance but I am not that learned to understand what you are trying to say.

Would you be kind enough to express in lay man's terms so I can grasp your viewpoint and learn from you?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Arvind]

GuruFateh Dear Tejwant Ji,

Guru Granth Sahib ji says on ang 526:

ਗੂਜਰੀ ॥
गूजरी ॥
Gūjrī.
Goojaree:
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो लछमी सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo lacẖẖmī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,
ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੧॥
सरप जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥१॥
Sarap jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||1||
shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1||
ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
अरी बाई गोबिद नामु मति बीसरै ॥ रहाउ ॥
Arī bā▫ī gobiḏ nām maṯ bīsrai. Rahā▫o.
O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो इसत्री सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo isṯarī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,
ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥
बेसवा जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥२॥
Besvā jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||2||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2||
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो लड़िके सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo laṛike simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts,
ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥
सूकर जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥३॥
Sūkar jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||3||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3||
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो मंदर सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo manḏar simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,
ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥
प्रेत जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥४॥
Pareṯ jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||4||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. ||4||
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि नाराइणु सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl nārā▫iṇ simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,
ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥
बदति तिलोचनु ते नर मुकता पीत्मबरु वा के रिदै बसै ॥५॥२॥
Baḏaṯ ṯilocẖan ṯe nar mukṯā pīṯambar vā ke riḏai basai. ||5||2||
says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||


My thoughts before posting have no significance, so had to quote Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

And no, I didn't question about IkOngKaar, whether that 'IS' or 'Is Not'.....

Just curious to know what is meant by churasi lakh joon (8.4 million life forms)?

With Regards,
Arvind.

Arvind ji,

Guru Fateh.

Sorry to burst the water here. Pun intended. Pardon my ignorance but to me personally, this hypothetical makes no sense at all.

I would like you to help me in understanding it.

What did you think of this post before posting it? What came to your mind about this 'dialogue' between the two fetuses which would be potential human beings ?

Please share your thoughts with us.

Having said that, allow me to say something about the title of the thread,"Do you believe in Waheguru..."?

Truth needs no belief. Hence Ik Ong Kaar Is.

Thanks & regards

Tewant Singh

 

[Arvind]

Dear Harry Haller Ji,

True, the small story infers that there is an afterlife, something other than this life. Just curious to know where Guru Sahib has said something against it? Vedic or not is immaterial.

Guru Granth Sahib on ang 1 says:
ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
किव सचिआरा होईऐ किव कूड़ै तुटै पालि ॥
Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl.
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?
ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
हुकमि रजाई चलणा नानक लिखिआ नालि ॥१॥
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||


Whose Hukam it is?

With Regards, Arvind.

Its a pretty story but from a Sikh point of view it does not work for me on several levels

1.

This infers there is an afterlife, something other than this life, something to make preperations for, its Vedic, not Sikh.

2

To me, this implies we live in a world where God loves us and all we need to do is worship him, open our mouths, and he will provide for us, a bit more Abrahamic, but I still cannot see any Sikh thinking.

3.

Ah yes, God is here to take care of us, bless us and help us pass our exams, marry, fall in love, feed us, we are not helpless creatures under the power of some deity, we are Sikhs, capable and in consonance (damn spell checker changed that to incontinent, good job I noticed)

4.

Waheguru is not a person, it does not have a personality, it is nothing but the truth, the eternal truth that exists to be aligned with

I suppose you could always lean towards the Abrahamic or the Vedic and prepare yourself with ceremonies and rituals for the big day, but I prefer to focus on what is happening right now, myself.

 

[Arvind]

Dear Akiva ji,

Let us go with what Guru Granth Sahib Ji says. My opinion or those of main-stream or non-mainstream's should not hold much of value.

It is great to see a discussion happening here

With Regards, Arvind.

Harry Ji;

WADR, in YOUR opinion. While I acknowledge that there are scholars who share that opinion, it seems that most Sikh scholars agree that reincarnation is a core part of Sikhi belief (and that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has numerous references to it)

It would be helpful if posters would note when their opinion is or is not mainstream -- especially for those of us being introduced to Sikhi.

Presenting a non-mainstream opinion as "Sikhi" just confuses us.

Humbly,
Akiva

 

[japjisahib04]

Just curious to know can anyone predict timing of his 'ant kaal'? Further if we literally interpret the meaning of 'ant kaal' then it goes against the fundamental teaching of gurmat, 'jo jaisi sanghat milai so taiso hi phal paey'. Thus as per my understanding the meaning of 'ant kaal' is the moment I conspire(spiritual death) and not the end time of my life.

Best regards
Sahni Mohinder

 

[spnadmin]

Arvind ji

ਗੂਜਰੀ ॥
गूजरी ॥
Gūjrī.
Goojaree:

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
Anṯ kāl jo lacẖẖmī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,

ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੧॥
Sarap jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||1||
shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1||

ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Arī bā▫ī gobiḏ nām maṯ bīsrai. Rahā▫o.
O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
Anṯ kāl jo isṯarī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,

ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥
Besvā jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||2||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
Anṯ kāl jo laṛike simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts,

ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥
Sūkar jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||3||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
Anṯ kāl jo manḏar simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥
Pareṯ jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||4||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. ||4||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
Anṯ kāl nārā▫iṇ simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,

ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥
Baḏaṯ ṯilocẖan ṯe nar mukṯā pīṯambar vā ke riḏai basai. ||5||2||
says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||

This very shabad of Bhagat Trilochan is the one always posted when the discussion of reincarnation/transmigration gets hot and heavy. Often people will react, “That seals it for me! There can be no debate; Gurbani supports reincarnation!”

I was once threatened on this very forum that I would return as a pig, using the exact same shabad, based on the poster's assessment of my misdeeds and shortcomings.

Just above the posted shabad Bhagat Trilochan however says something very interesting. He speaks directly to Jai Chand: abandon those yogic rituals. The matter of reincarnation is based on such rituals. It was believed that these rituals advanced one through the cycles of life and death... improved our odds of making progress so to speak. Bhagat ji is suggesting to Jai Chand, and indirectly to us, that there are better choices we can make to alter our ultimate destiny.

Also, Bhagat ji describes the 8.4 million not as life-times but life-forms

Ang 526

ਭਰਮੇ ਭੂਲੀ ਰੇ ਜੈ ਚੰਦਾ ॥
Bẖarme bẖūlī re jai cẖanḏā.
Deluded by doubt, O Jai Chand,

ਨਹੀ ਨਹੀ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Nahī nahī cẖīnĥi▫ā parmānanḏā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
you have not realized the Lord, the embodiment of supreme bliss. ||1||Pause||

and then a few lines later, Guru ji says, spend the time you have in this life this way.

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਸੋ ਸਿਮਰਹੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ ॥੩॥
Lakh cẖa▫orāsīh jiniĥ upā▫ī so simrahu nirbāṇī. ||3||
Meditate on the Lord of Nirvaanaa, who has created the 8.4 million species of beings. ||3|

So why conclude that the bani of Bhagat ji teaches reincarnation? What evidence would Bhagat ji have for that? Would he be so much the fool to make claims without knowing for sure? Until someone dies, how does one know?

And, you are right! We do not have to talk about this in terms of “mainstream” or vedic influences or even think of goblins and pigs as metaphors.

Now you suggest we should stick to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. That is a good idea. Here Guru Angad explains a few things. (Ang 1243)

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੨ ॥
Salok mėhlā 2.
Shalok, Second Mehl:

ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਬੇਦੀ ਆਣੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
Kathā kahāṇī beḏīʼn āṇī pāp punn bīcẖār.
The Vedas bring forth stories and legends, and thoughts of vice and virtue.

ਦੇ ਦੇ ਲੈਣਾ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਦੇਣਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥
Ḏe ḏe laiṇā lai lai ḏeṇā narak surag avṯār.
What is given, they receive, and what is received, they give. They are reincarnated in heaven and hell.

ਉਤਮ ਮਧਿਮ ਜਾਤੀਂ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਵੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
Uṯam maḏẖim jāṯīʼn jinsī bẖaram bẖavai sansār.
High and low, social class and status - the world wanders lost in superstition.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਤਤੁ ਵਖਾਣੀ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਈ ॥
Amriṯ baṇī ṯaṯ vakẖāṇī gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān vicẖ ā▫ī.
The Ambrosial Word of Gurbani proclaims the essence of reality. Spiritual wisdom and meditation are contained within it.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਖੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਤੀ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਕਰਮਿ ਧਿਆਈ ॥
Gurmukẖ ākẖī gurmukẖ jāṯī surṯīʼn karam ḏẖi▫ā▫ī.
The Gurmukhs chant it, and the Gurmukhs realize it. Intuitively aware, they meditate on it.

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸਾਜਿ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਖੈ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ॥
Hukam sāj hukmai vicẖ rakẖai hukmai anḏar vekẖai.
By the Hukam of His Command, He formed the Universe, and in His Hukam, He keeps it. By His Hukam, He keeps it under His Gaze.

ਨਾਨਕ ਅਗਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਤਾਂ ਕੋ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ॥੧॥
Nānak agahu ha▫umai ṯutai ṯāʼn ko likī▫ai lekẖai. ||1||
O Nanak, if the mortal shatters his ego before he departs, as it is pre-ordained, then he is approved. ||1||

The shabad of Trilochan ji needs close study, more than I have given. What bharam, untrustworthy ideas, i.e., superstitions, might Guru Angad ji be talking about? Returning as a serpent, or a prostitute, or a pig, or a goblin? We do have a clear idea from Guru Angad ji that "if the mortal shatters his ego before he departs, as it is pre-ordained, then he is approved." Why be frightened? What else than this is important?

 

[spnadmin]

Just curious to know can anyone predict timing of his 'ant kaal'? Thus as per my understanding the meaning of 'ant kaal' is the moment I conspire(spiritual death) and not the end time of my life.

Best regards
Sahni Mohinder

Veer ji

I think you are providing an important clue into how to resolve the promise of return as pigs and goblins and prostitutes.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

I have died and been brought back to life. More than once. In fact, two times in one night, so I think if anyone would know what happens after death it should be someone who has experienced it and has returned from The Other Side. I had an incredibly wonderful NDE (Near Death Experience). It was very personal and I won't tell it here, but it was everything I had ever hoped for.

If you're very curious, I did write about the very beginning of it and posted it here.: An Encounter With The Lord of Death.

So here is The Ultimate Truth from someone, a pretty orthodox Sikh someone, who has been there.

The whole thing could have been real; it certainly felt real to me. Or it could have been simply the delusions of a brain starved for oxygen. I have no reality base from which to derive a conclusion. So here is where I stand:

On Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I believe that when you die, you're dead and that is that.

On Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, I believe that our consciousness continues in some form after physical death.

On Sunday, I eat pizza. And ice cream. :icecreamkudi:

To state it clearly: all we can know about the afterlife is based on belief, not facts. I want to believe that what I experienced is what "really" happens, but I am always aware that it is just belief and I may well be wrong.

I just fervently pray that the Christianity and Islam have it wrong, because if they don't, I'm screwed big time.

 

[Ishna]

Admin ji, the words 'thank you' just don't express my gratitude for the effort of your post.

 

[spnadmin]

Dhan Dhan Guru Angad ji

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Spnadmin ji,

Guru Fateh,

Thanks for untangling the knots in such a beautiful manner. As far as returning as a pig is concerned, I know that mud wrestling has never been your forte.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Arvind ji,

Guru Fateh.

My thoughts before posting have no significance, so had to quote Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Thanks for posting the Shabad. I do not know how this answers my queries to you.
Would you be kind enough to express the Shabad with your own understanding because the literal translations seems quite foggy to me?

What does Ant Kaal mean to you in the Shabad? Is it the last physical breath or the absence of spiritual breath?
The Rahao verse may have the answer to the riddle as it contains the nectar of the Shabad.

And no, I didn't question about IkOngKaar, whether that 'IS' or 'Is Not'.....

Then what does the title of this thread stand for?

Just curious to know what is meant by churasi lakh joon (8.4 million life forms)?

Acknowledgement of some beliefs in Hinduism does not mean their acceptance in Sikhi and if we study the whole Shabad the one before the one you have posted, we may understand it better.

What is you personal opinion about the belief of reincarnation?
What conclusion have you come about the above through your studies of Gurbani?

Will be waiting to learn from your understanding of the Shabad.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Harry Haller]

Veer ji

I think you are providing an important clue into how to resolve the promise of return as pigs and goblins and prostitutes.

we all have the potential to be pigs, goblins and prostitutes, in fact some of us are all three on a regular basis.

 

[spnadmin]

we all have the potential to be pigs, goblins and prostitutes, in fact some of us are all three on a regular basis.

Not surprizingly we may have now a second clue to decoding the shabad by Tralochan ji.... it is starting to come together.

 

[Harry Haller]

True, the small story infers that there is an afterlife, something other than this life. Just curious to know where Guru Sahib has said something against it?

the current shabad of the week is a good start!

Vedic or not is immaterial.

not at all, it is hugely material, seeing as Guru Nanakji made every effort he could to give us logic, wisdom and the truth, you may have noticed, along the way, most of the ceremonies and rituals he disagreed with were Vedic. Thus Vedic or not makes for a good litmust test.

Whose Hukam it is?

The truth

 

[Harry Haller]

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो लछमी सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo lacẖẖmī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,
ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੧॥
सरप जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥१॥
Sarap jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||1||
shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1||
ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
अरी बाई गोबिद नामु मति बीसरै ॥ रहाउ ॥
Arī bā▫ī gobiḏ nām maṯ bīsrai. Rahā▫o.
O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो इसत्री सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo isṯarī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,
ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥
बेसवा जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥२॥
Besvā jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||2||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2||
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो लड़िके सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo laṛike simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts,
ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥
सूकर जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥३॥
Sūkar jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||3||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3||
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो मंदर सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo manḏar simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,
ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥
प्रेत जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥४॥
Pareṯ jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||4||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. ||4||
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि नाराइणु सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl nārā▫iṇ simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,
ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥
बदति तिलोचनु ते नर मुकता पीत्मबरु वा के रिदै बसै ॥५॥२॥
Baḏaṯ ṯilocẖan ṯe nar mukṯā pīṯambar vā ke riḏai basai. ||5||2||
says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||

If we use the litmus test here, it is clearly obvious that we are not talking about reincarnation, we are talking about who you are every day. It is our choice who we are, if we go to sleep thinking of sex, then the next day, we will choose to be a prostitute for the day, yes, we will go about our business, and no one will know, but our rationale, our thinking, our essence, wll be sex,.

However, if we think of the Creator and Creation, if we mentally water that part of our brain, then the crops that grow, and our very focus, will be on all Creation and Creator,.

My own interpretation is that out of the 84 trillion million different personalities one could adopt on a daily basis, only one is true, the rest are lies, animal instincts and desires.