False Prophets!

[manbir]

We tend to get bogged down in names that we give to the 'All pervading power of this universe'. That is why there are so many faiths. Because the TRUTH is ONE and only ONE - the religion of this universe has to be only ONE. In the language of humans there may be many 'Truths'. But the language of this univere is different where Truth is only ONE - HIS NAME, you may call it whatever and whichever way you like. One is in right path if one realises this basic fact of this universe. If we do, we find HIM in everything we see. We find HIS beauty in every thing we feel.

 

[Satyaban]

Manbir ji,
I am so happy to see the last three posts on this thread. Perhaps because I am not familiar with much of the language on this thread I have misunderstood much. To me the name a person uses when speaking of "That One" simply identifies the way they worship not who or what they worship.

 

[japjisahib04]

vijaydeep Singh,

My belief is not that Shiva Lingum is God nor do I think you will find any other Kashmiri Shaivites who do. What I do believe is that God is everything, to include you and I, everything seen and unseen to include the spaces inbetween. All is God and there is nothing without God. Hence if God is in you, me, and all else why not in a stone?

I believe every faith is equally valid and would not be critical of yours.

Dear Satyaben ji
Gurbani not only tells us God is all over and in everyone but tells that includes stone. It even tells us, sail pathar mai jant upai ta ka rizak aaghai kar dharia - He even made provision for the living beings in rocks and stone. Guru Granth ang.10.9.
But when it comes for worshiping Gurbani questions, “The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. But when those stones themselves sink, how can they make other swim across.” - Guru Granth ang.556.10. One can argue when Creator is in the creation and creation within Creator what is the harm of worshipping Him through creation or via deities. Please note while the former can create Creation, the latter cannot create the Creator. So who is the prime mover, surely the Creator. Every atom of the stone is Him and conscious. But the stone is not conscious, because it has no brain.

Gurbani maintains, “If this stone Akal Purakh were true, it would devour the sculptor for this!” - Guru Granth ang.479.7. He further continued “The stone does not speak; it does not give anything to anyone. It cannot do anything by itself. It does not have any educational direction. Such religious rituals are useless; such service is fruitless.” - Guru Granth ang.1160.8. Bhagat Naam Deyv presents it from different angle and describes, “One stone is devotedly decorated and worshipped, while another stone is walked upon. If first one is a Akal Purakh, then the other must also be a Akal Purakh. He thus says I revere the Sabd of Akal Purakh only.” - Guru Granth ang.525.1. Moreover if an artist is able to sketch His image on stone, then it means He has come into his understanding and or imagination whereas He is beyond mind, baani and intellect (Aagham Aghochar) or even imagination, hence painting is incomplete.

Even Bhagvat Gita quotes in chapter 12 that, “the realization is more difficult for those whose mind is not fixed on the unmanifest Brahman, because, the comprehension of the unmanifest by the embodied (or average) human being is very difficult. But those who worship Me as manifest, renouncing all actions to Me; setting Me as their supreme goal, and meditating on Me with single minded devotion; I swiftly become their savior, from the world that is the ocean of death and transmigration, whose thoughts are set on Me, O Arjuna shall attain me.” So what is this manifestation? Is it in the form of His creation or revelation? Is it idol of deities (since Akal Purakh is formless so naturally idols are of deities) or His revelation? It is His Sabd Naam, which is revealed in Vedas. So we read and contemplate on and follow what is mentioned in Vedas and not worship it. But what are we worshipping under the excuse of manifestation? Stone engraved with some carving. It is under this background that third Guru Nanak regrettably states the revelation and said, “veda mai naam uttam so sunai nahI phirai jau baitalia - that you don’t contemplate on the great name of Waheguru revealed in Vedas but deluded by doubt are wandering in absurd and worshiping lifeless, speechless idols, havens, pilgrimages and are following other rituals thus you have deserted the TRUTH and are clung to falsehood and therefore are losing your life in gamble.” - Guru Granth ang.919-14.
Therefore focusing on a speechless 'idol’ or image of one of deity can become a serious limiting factor towards ultimate realization of Waheguru. So why not start off on the right foot from the very beginning? In my opinion, we are not that weak that we depend on lifeless stone and worship His creations especially when mankind is the head of all His creations, therefore the need is to go beyond it and realize Akal Purakh.

Kabir Ji declares that if one can meet Akal Purakh with the worshipping of stone, he would love to worship a mountain. In the language of Guru nanak the best proclamation is: Ughar gyaa jasiey khotta dhabuaa nadr sarafaa ayiaaa which in English can be translated perhaps as: The fake gem became exposed as soon as the eyes of the expert jeweller fell upon it. “ Guru Granth ang.381.7. in Japji Sahib we are warned repeatedly about becoming unthinking and complacent, about conveniently embracing ritualism and proceeding through life in a formulaic fashion.
Guru Nanak thus enquires, “Why worship the gods and goddess? What can we ask of them? What can they give us? Can we churn the stone. The stone gods are washes with water, but they just sink in the water.” - Guru Granth ang.637.5. Further is it not a hypocrisy that at one end stone idol is fed with milk and sweetmeats, washes it with MILK, gives it the best foods to eat... WHILE IGNORES or MISTREATS...the SHUDRAS as LOW CASTES.

Therefore whatever we portray or curve anything on stone or anywhere it will not be of Akal Purakh but His creations and trying to do it shows our limited nature. This process of portraying ‘The Sach’, takes us away from it. Hymns of Bhagat Kabir regretfully state “God has painted the greatest picture of the world with various colors but these wondrous creations (Forms) or its discoveries have now become the cause of concern, as mankind is emotionally attached with them and have diverted to worship picture of His creations or its discoveries.

Bhaghat Kabir reiterates on such meaningless rituals and says “those who call a stone their Akal Purakh, their service are useless. Those who fall at the feet of a stone Akal Purakh - their work are wasted in vain.” - Guru Granth ang.1160.6.

The Brahmans were intelligent people and introduced a simple black stone with the guidelines that it was to be used as a medium of approach to Akal Purakh and nothing more. This was the concept of a 'medium' as suited for the limited intellect of the masses. Since as per their belief one couldn't approach Akal Purakh directly[because He was incognizable], a medium, a path was required. The path was through a messiah, or through an idol. The masses were satisfied with either. Such was the state of dark fog that engulfed the innocent mankind. No one was the culprit, and no one is in this Universe. The human archetype is in Hukam. The umbilical cord between man and Akal Purakh was the sole requirement. Yes! it became an umbilical cord. The idol became an umbilical cord. Man could speak his grievances to an idol. Man could cry before an idol. Man could ask gifts from an idol. The relation between man and idol became a personal relation--the society was moving towards individualism. Man was no longer connected to his fellow human beings. Hindus would stop loving their fellow Hindus, forgetting that the untouchables too were men.
Regards Sahni Mohinder

 

[devinesanative]

If Ramayan be believed , then there is one episode of Eklavya , where he makes the idol of his guru Dronacharya , and gets insipiration form him , Practices his archery , and becomes the best archerers.

An idol or picture can be used to get insipiration , just like many people hang the pictures of great scientists on the walls of their offices, such type of visual arts does boost the brain.


But , it only gets bad when people start expecting miracles to happen by worshipping them rather than getting inspiration and taking ACTIONS

 

[japjisahib04]

But this in no way takes you to realization of ultimate authority. Therefore focusing on a speechless 'idol’ or image of one of deity can become a serious limiting factor towards ultimate realization of Waheguru. So why not start off on the right foot from the very beginning.
I hope I am clear.
Regards Sahni Mohinder

 

[devinesanative]

Worshipping Idols or Stones won't lead any one to somewhere .

But how this might have evolved can best be inferred and understood , by watching a movie "CastAway" .

Its a nice English Movie , where a man working in Fedex company , finds in himself in an unkown island after his plane crashes in the mid of the sea.

The other day he finds his dead friend , then he makes a picture of his friend on the baskeball , just to ensure that he is not alone ..

That sort of thing might have happened in the past .

When people used to live alone and loney in the jungles , just to feel the presence of someone , they might have devised the IDOLs or Stone images ....

Idol or stone worship has nothing to do with realization but it is more or less psychological .

 

[japjisahib04]

Worshipping Idols or Stones won't lead any one to somewhere .


That sort of thing might have happened in the past .

When people used to live alone and loney in the jungles , just to feel the presence of someone , they might have devised the IDOLs or Stone images ....

Idol or stone worship has nothing to do with realization but it is more or less psychological .

Here we are. You are right and I believe this must have lead them to devise the idols or stone carving and brahmins must have taken advantge of this.,
Regards Sahni Mohinder

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

One information.
Story of Eklavya is not from Ramayan but from Mahabharat.

 

[Satyaban]

Wow so much to read

 

[Satyaban]

Personally

 

[Satyaban]

Personally I worship no stone but the Lingum is an important part of ritual. I do not believe ritual will bring the atmanto reunion whit "That One". I rarely even go to the mandir but those who do find it as a way to express their love and devotion. Ritual can also be used as a step in the honing of the one pointedness of mind.

Do you not make a symbolic apology to God for any ways you may have offended before your meditations? Do we not make sure we are physicly clean before we meditate even though being physicly clean is a part of this temporal word?

I get haircuts several times a year and shave my face almost everyday but I do not think this is a reflection of my spirituality.

 

[japjisahib04]

I hope it was not boring.
Regards Sahni Mohinder

 

[devinesanative]

if a person is clean from inside , then he/she will become clean from outside automatically .

Because the innerself of cleaniness will force him / her to remain phycially clean.

Being physically clean before meditating is not a ritual , But it makes one look fresh and cool , and is also hygenic .



Before going for swimming , he/she has to take bath and clean is body . that does not means that it is a ritual for swimming .

But to make his/her body clean , as you alone will not swim but many people are going to swim .

Some activities become rituals when they do not come from within but are forced by others.

But what comes from within is not a ritual .

 

[devinesanative]

Gurfateh

One information.
Story of Eklavya is not from Ramayan but from Mahabharat.

Dear vijaydeep ji ,

Passive disscussions are very boring , And I do know that Eklavya was from mahabharat . But I Intentially wrote so.

Just make it Active ....

Some times some things are intentially written just to switch on the brain and churn out and extract the gems and pearls from others.

 

[japjisahib04]

Guru Nanak has classified three levels of uncleanliness in japji sahib pauri 21, ie level 1 is dust, level 2 is bodily excretions and level 3 is sinful thoughts. Guru Nanak has also classified three levels of cleansing agents, i.e level 1 is water, level 2 is soap [detergents] and level 3 is naam. it is now incumbent upon the sikh to realise which impurity he is loaded with [ie at what level of cleanliness/uncleanliness he/she is] and to use the appropriate method to cleanse himself/herself so as to be able to carry out his/her responsibilities and duties, both temporal and spiritual.
Regards Sahni Mohinder

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Respected Satyaban Ji,

As we see that minsters with the speacuil departments are ment to serve general public and minster is only a servent so is bureaucrat.

any bribe to it is not good.

in the same way as per our faith gods and godess are made by Akal (eternal) Mahakal(greater then time) to serve the unvers and not to worship them or to bribe them but to worship Akal only but do respect all.

In fact Sankar who lieve on Kailash is often refered to first Nihung,a sort of worshipeer of of our God Akal.In Nath yoga same is called Adi Nath or first of Nath called Bholenath ,who worships nirankar(formless).We could see that eternally sitting in meditation mean some some higher on which Sanker is medtating.

For us he is male and not the one whose male gental was droped due to curse of sage due to his tendency to comit adultary to thier wives.(it is as per one puranic story).

Nihungs are Shiv Swaroops or like the form of Shiva and Shiva is thier source of inspiration as like Shiva they take poision to let world surive ie sacrifise self for others.

so as per our faiths Lingum is an attempt of prevert of defmae a great Human called Shiva Sanker ,who ruled Himlayas and brought ganges to plains.

Das request you to visit www.sarbloh.info and related sites to find that farla on the turban of Nihung gives something similar to naaga or cobra on the head of Shiva so is half moon on the turban called chand torra and blue dress etc.

Das is not trying to offend anyone's faith but trying to prove that in Nihung Singhs(a type of Sikhs) among most of the Sanatan Sikhs Shiva of kailash is respected but Lingum worship is oppsed as it is derogatory to Shiva.

Das is sorry if wrong is writtan.

 

[devinesanative]

The concept of worshipping naga or cobra is the universal concept. If history be unearthed from the world over it can be found that there are still socieities and communities who worship naga or cobra . And that was prevalent in the thousands of thousands of years back.


For example :

The swastik symbol is also auspicious in India , But it was also the symbol used by Hitler.

 

[devinesanative]

The concept of Naga or Cobra is a metphor for the power which lies in each and every human being.

 

[gu7s]

believe in god not in some kind of stup. prophet that said that he is the last prophet!!!!!

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh
Our keeping 5ks and uncut hairs are symbols that our own form even does not exists but is of Guru.

Das is giving a link below which talks of Nihungs caarying old tradidtion of Shiva as Shiva was one of the initial Sikh of our Gurubar Akal.


http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/sikh_akali.html

An Akali Nihang Singh
Unknown Akali photographed in 1860 by Hooper and Weston
is a powerful example of the Victorian photographers art form. This
warrior is prodigiously armed. He is holding a 'ferenghi' sword in his right
hand.The dagger in his waistband is a Chillanum, . He also has a shield, a second
sword and a pistol about his person. His turban is adorned with 'chakars' (quoits), and
an 'Aad chand' (half moon cresent signifying that he represents Shiv-Swaroop (ie, the very form of Shiva)

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