Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Archived_Member4]

Keep meat deabtes here:

http://www.sikhism.us/essays-on-sikh...ver-flesh.html

As you know and I know it very well depends on who gives you Amrit. I took Amrit in India, in Punjab and meat eating was never mentioned or an issue (from the Panj Pyarey). Nihang groups do especially make an issue of it, and they are the oldest warrior group amongst Sikhs.

Why has Vege vs Meat become and issue in Sikhi when it has been ruled on?

So let us reflect on this in a cool calm manner. Sikhism has the ability to absorb many and varied people.

I repeat again meat and vege discussion areto be confined on the above link.

I didnt bring up the meat issue. I just responded back to one of dks 1980 questions that was concering with vegetarian fanatics. If anything my response should be put in a new discussion called vegetarian fanatics.

I repeat again meat and vege discussion areto be confined on the above link.

Just relax man. No need to repeat things that are already understood.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Re: Promoting JHATKA

<<i will repeat myself...till the 5th PAATSHAAHI we would have been strict vegeterians however after Bir Ras was influenced during the 6thPaatshaahi...we could not remain strict vegeterians..>>

veerji do you have any documentary proof of the same?

 

[kds1980]

I didnt bring up the meat issue. I just responded back to one of dks 1980 questions that was concering with vegetarian fanatics. If anything my response should be put in a new discussion called vegetarian fanatics.



Just relax man. No need to repeat things that are already understood.

And Now let me reply to your question .I never said that if panj pyare instruct you not to eat meat then you should eat meat.Infact One of my best chat friend is among them But on other sites I have always seen her debating with fanatic vegetarians that diet is not an issue in sikhism.So many vegetarian sikhs also beleive this that Diet was not at all matter in sikhism.Infact there is no whole shabad in Guru granth sahib which says Not eat meat
So No shabad is dedicated by Guru's on this issue.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Originally Posted by Singh
I didnt bring up the meat issue. I just responded back to one of dks 1980 questions that was concering with vegetarian fanatics. If anything my response should be put in a new discussion called vegetarian fanatics.



Just relax man. No need to repeat things that are already understood.

And Now let me reply to your question .I never said that if panj pyare instruct you not to eat meat then you should eat meat.Infact One of my best chat friend is among them But on other sites I have always seen her debating with fanatic vegetarians that diet is not an issue in sikhism.So many vegetarian sikhs also beleive this that Diet was not at all matter in sikhism.Infact there is no whole shabad in Guru granth sahib which says Not eat meat
So No shabad is dedicated by Guru's on this issue.

I didn't ask you a question just gave you a response. Kds1980 and the above is for Randip Singh

 

[Archived_Member_19]

why don't people simply accept that the find meat tasty and that's why they eat it or they dislike the idea dn don't it it.

For Veggies: why all fuss about getting God's approval and stuff?

Non Veggies: Why all fuss about giving the logic of "not forbidden" etc etc.

For Veggies: Why all the fuss about being answerable to God, and taking a morally higher stand. They find it tasty, let them enjoy !!

Non veggies: You like it, you eat it, just own it up !!

 

[kds1980]

why don't people simply accept that the find meat tasty and that's why they eat it or they dislike the idea dn don't it it.

Do you really think that all meat is tasty? :hmm::hmm:

 

[BhagatSingh]

Do you really think that all meat is tasty? :hmm::hmm:

Chicken, pork and beef is tasty. It actually depends on how its cooked. Like you wouldn't eat raw dal.
Meat is tasty and so are vegetables, I don't know why vegetarians say non-veg only eat meat because its tasty. I eat vegetables because vegetables are tasty. Heck, everyone eats what they find tasty. If you don't find anything tasty and you eat because you have to then either you're eating the wrong food or something is wrong with your taste buds or nervous system.

 

[spnadmin]

Do you really think that all meat is tasty? :hmm::hmm:

Asking for the patience of forum participants -- but when you don't eat meat of any kind, after a while the smell of meat becomes terrible. :shock: Taste is linked to the sense of smell -- so for example, a hamburger that smells rotten :shock: (even if it isn't), would not be something I would want to test :shock: to see if it were "tasty." :whisling:

 

[unbiasedview]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Randeep Singh Ji I Would First Of All Say Thank You Very Much For Bringing These Lines From Ggsji To My Knowledge.though I Had Never Read These Lines Before But What I Could Extrapolate From Whatever I Know Abt Sikhism Is That Religion Like Sikhism Which Is Very Intellectually Liberated Could Never Allow To Kill An Animal Just For Taste Of Tongue,because To Take Somebodies Life And Inflict Him Pain U Have To Be Cruel And Sikh Religion Can Never Ever Preach Cruelty.so Fool Are Those Who Are Fighting Over Eating Jhatka And Halal.but What I Personally Believe And What I Have Heard,that In Case Of Absolute Compulsion ,like When It Is A Matter Of Life And Death And We Have No Access To Vegeterian Food,man Being A Higher Animal Has The Right To Take Life Of Lower Being Just To Survive And In That Case It Should Only Be Jhatka To Minimise The Pain Inflicted To The Lower Being.and Same May Hold True At The Time Of War.

 

[unbiasedview]

WJKK WJKF
listen brother.rules of sikhism are meant for good of humanity.ppl say its abt taking someones life and inflicting pain on him,ppl say its about taste of tongue.but reality is much more deeper than this.To kill someone u have to be cruel.BUT nonvegeterians argue that even plants have life and they feel pain like animals do then how can u say vegeterianism is not cruel but flesh eating is.i being a medico will like to use my medical knowledge to throw some light on this issue.
1.first plants may bear pain but they dont have emotions associated with pain as that requires a higher centre like brain.there response to painful stimuli is just a reflex.
2.animals have emotions ,they resemble us much more than plants ,plants can regenerate fully but animals cant beyond certain extent.
3.animals have social structure very much like humans.again emotions have role in this.
4.there makeup is much more closer to human beings than plants.
so it is these emotions which makes human more closer to animals than plants.so to kill an animal u have to kill ur sensiblities to much greater extent than to kill a plant.and more u lose ur sensiblities the more distant u get from god.A person who can kill an animal,should have much less inner resistance in killing a fellow human being.so eating flesh is like impediment to ur sensiblities.plants can be used without killing them.

 

[Randip Singh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Randeep Singh Ji I Would First Of All Say Thank You Very Much For Bringing These Lines From Ggsji To My Knowledge.though I Had Never Read These Lines Before But What I Could Extrapolate From Whatever I Know Abt Sikhism Is That Religion Like Sikhism Which Is Very Intellectually Liberated Could Never Allow To Kill An Animal Just For Taste Of Tongue,

so you are saying we eat vegetables because they taste bad?

Also people who are intellectually inferior eat meat?

Where is you evidence that meat tastes better that vegetables?

because To Take Somebodies Life And Inflict Him Pain U Have To Be Cruel And Sikh Religion Can Never Ever Preach Cruelty.

Is not killing plants cruel....look how Guruji describes surgane being crushes:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

so Fool Are Those Who Are Fighting Over Eating Jhatka And Halal.

NO

Fools are those that think Sikhism is an a la carte menu where one diet is better over another.

To think that a vegetarian diet will bring you closer to God is Hankaar!

but What I Personally Believe And What I Have Heard,that In Case Of Absolute Compulsion ,like When It Is A Matter Of Life And Death And We Have No Access To Vegeterian Food,man Being A Higher Animal Has The Right To Take Life Of Lower Being Just To Survive And In That Case It Should Only Be Jhatka To Minimise The Pain Inflicted To The Lower Being.and Same May Hold True At The Time Of War.

Please do not post what you have heard but fact from Bani!

This matter has been ruled on by the Akaal Takht. Read your own Rehat Maryada and accept it. Do not force other people to your lifestyle:

What is Kuttha meat?

Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."
Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."

In the Rehit Marayada (http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states:
The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided
1. Dishonouring the hair;
2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way(Kutha);
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse
4. Using tobacco.
Sikh Rehit Maryada

 

[Randip Singh]

WJKK WJKF
listen brother.rules of sikhism are meant for good of humanity.ppl say its abt taking someones life and inflicting pain on him,ppl say its about taste of tongue.but reality is much more deeper than this.To kill someone u have to be cruel.BUT nonvegeterians argue that even plants have life and they feel pain like animals do then how can u say vegeterianism is not cruel but flesh eating is.i being a medico will like to use my medical knowledge to throw some light on this issue.
1.first plants may bear pain but they dont have emotions associated with pain as that requires a higher centre like brain.there response to painful stimuli is just a reflex.
2.animals have emotions ,they resemble us much more than plants ,plants can regenerate fully but animals cant beyond certain extent.
3.animals have social structure very much like humans.again emotions have role in this.
4.there makeup is much more closer to human beings than plants.
so it is these emotions which makes human more closer to animals than plants.so to kill an animal u have to kill ur sensiblities to much greater extent than to kill a plant.and more u lose ur sensiblities the more distant u get from god.A person who can kill an animal,should have much less inner resistance in killing a fellow human being.so eating flesh is like impediment to ur sensiblities.plants can be used without killing them.

Pure conjecture.I go by what Bani says. Bani see's human life as precious only:

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Reading this Shabad one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states: ​

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.
go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.
muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar.
har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.
ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. rahaa-o.
jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.
ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat.
mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.
sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh.
lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:
The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?
When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home.
O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.
Why do you take pride in trivial matters? Pause
Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.
Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden.
Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions.
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru's when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:

 

[Randip Singh]

Asking for the patience of forum participants -- but when you don't eat meat of any kind, after a while the smell of meat becomes terrible. :shock: Taste is linked to the sense of smell -- so for example, a hamburger that smells rotten :shock: (even if it isn't), would not be something I would want to test :shock: to see if it were "tasty." :whisling:

I wouldn't classify myself as a vegetarian, but I prefer the taste of vegetarian food over meat any day. There is such a variety in vegetable food...especially Indian food.

With meat its, pork, lamb, chicken, beef....yawn....how boring.

I agree with your taste point.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<
Do you really think that all meat is tasty? :hmm::hmm:>>

i never said all meat is tasty

its basic human nature

a person eats something if he/she find it tasty or is addicted to it

i could not understand ur point.

still i know no body will fess up that they eat because they like the taste, or don't as they dislike taste/idea, but will go great lengths to prove or disapprove using bani.

 

[kds1980]

a person eats something if he/she find it tasty or is addicted to it

i could not understand ur point.

still i know no body will fess up that they eat because they like the taste, or don't as they dislike taste/idea, but will go great lengths to prove or disapprove using bani.

People also meat because of health reason.Coaches specially recommend sportsperson to eat non veg diet in sports

 

[Archived_Member_19]

you can't eat something continuously as diet unless u like the taste, else it is medicine and not FOOD


btw the example you are giving is fringe behaviour and not the aam "murge-shurge" wala guy

 

[kds1980]

you can't eat something continuously as diet unless u like the taste, else it is medicine and not FOOD


btw the example you are giving is fringe behaviour and not the aam "murge-shurge" wala guy

Majority of people have to eat what is available. Taste is something which is related to economic status.

Do you really think that millions of people of world which are below poverty line have choice of taste?

 

[BhagatSingh]

Majority of people have to eat what is available. Taste is something which is related to economic status.

Do you really think that millions of people of world which are below poverty line have choice of taste?

if something tastes bad, they might not have a choice but they would eat it like medicine, jus to keep themselves alive. AmarSAnghera ji has a point.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<Majority of people have to eat what is available. Taste is something which is related to economic status.

Do you really think that millions of people of world which are below poverty line have choice of taste?>>

i beg to disagree

unless someone is dying of starvation and is bound by no choice, one prefers to eat what one likes.

a forced, non choice food is a medicine as you eat it because you find it beneficial.


status might have a say in menu but what is not tasty is rarely eaten

i haven't seen anyone eat poorly cooked meat to prove their status symbol.

 

[Sinister]

WJKK WJKF
listen brother.rules of sikhism are meant for good of humanity.ppl say its abt taking someones life and inflicting pain on him,ppl say its about taste of tongue.but reality is much more deeper than this.To kill someone u have to be cruel.BUT nonvegeterians argue that even plants have life and they feel pain like animals do then how can u say vegeterianism is not cruel but flesh eating is.i being a medico will like to use my medical knowledge to throw some light on this issue.

medical knowledge is nutrition based and it is UNBIASED (irony)…NOT emotion based!

Let me add with my medical knowledge:

See your teeth! See your Canines! What are they for (evolutionarily speaking)?

Name me the essential amino acids…and tell me from what foodstuff can they be READILY attained?
Omega-3 fatty acids?
Vitamin B12?
B6? Pyridoxine?
Niacin?
Thiamin?
Zinc?

Note: medically/biochemically speaking it makes complete sense to consume meat in moderation…it is rich in essential nutrients. Yes you can find these nutrients in supplements and other plant matter but not in the same readily available quantities. Vegans often run a danger of being deficient in B12.

There are downsides to eating meat as well…it is usually higher in calories because of the high quantities of saturated fats, salts, nitrites … should be consumed in moderation.

but this can be offset with an active lifestyle. And high protein diets are often beneficial to diabetics. which in 2008 is 25 million people in the US alone.


Max Weber (a renowed sociologist) emphasized the basic fact that people are not satisfied to just engage in behaviour but also need to believe that what they do is good or right. Thus some people, Both meat-eater and vegetarian alike, will respond with defensiveness, intolerance, or hostility towards the other, interpreting the other's behaviour as calling their own into question.

For A die hard Meat eater there is nothing more irritating than a smug vegetarian who nags about morality all day long. Medically, this should not be about “owning up”, it should not about what tastes good or what doesn’t and it certainly shouldn't be about morality.

If you want to be honest and speak “medically” then you should be objective rather than biased (live up to your name).

It should be a matter of health if you speak on the basis of medical knowledge.

1.first plants may bear pain but they dont have emotions associated with pain as that requires a higher centre like brain.there response to painful stimuli is just a reflex.
2.animals have emotions ,they resemble us much more than plants ,plants can regenerate fully but animals cant beyond certain extent.
3.animals have social structure very much like humans.again emotions have role in this.
4.there makeup is much more closer to human beings than plants.
so it is these emotions which makes human more closer to animals than plants.so to kill an animal u have to kill ur sensiblities to much greater extent than to kill a plant.and more u lose ur sensiblities the more distant u get from god.A person who can kill an animal,should have much less inner resistance in killing a fellow human being.so eating flesh is like impediment to ur sensiblities.plants can be used without killing them.

this is not medical knowledge...because it is personal interpretation.



PS: you learn to love foods that you once despised as a child…so taste has a habit of readily changing and is fluid rather than fixed (eg; food aversion can occur, even from what use to be you favourite dishes)

cheers