Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[findingmyway]

I think you will find this practice actually occurred within the precincts of the Golden Temple until the 1920's.

This is actually a Kshatriya tradition that spans the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Hazoori Sikhs who still do this are said to be unpolluted from the Vashnavite influences on Punjabi Sikhs. So they would argue that it is us who have forgotten Gurmat!

Jhatka itself is not anti-Gurmat, but I think the Shastar Tilak or Shastar Puja is.

Apologies Randip Ji,
Please can you explain the rationale behind this ritual to me? I may be missing something? As far as I can see;

Ritual slaughter is against the Guru's teachings
Worship objects including shastar is against the Guru's teachings.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji had good reason for everything he did, so how does this fit in?
Thanks,
Jasleen

 

[Randip Singh]

Apologies Randip Ji,
Please can you explain the rationale behind this ritual to me? I may be missing something? As far as I can see;

Ritual slaughter is against the Guru's teachings
Worship objects including shastar is against the Guru's teachings.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji had good reason for everything he did, so how does this fit in?
Thanks,
Jasleen

I don't think its has much to do with the Guru's teaching but more of a cultural practice around when he was alive by Kshatriyas.

Jhatka itself is not a ceremony, all it means is one blow. However, Jhatka can be used in a ritual, or part of one. Herre there are two parts. The Jhatka or blessing, an the Shastar Tilak.

Shastar Tilak or blood anointment of weapons is a Kshatriya practice, nothing to do with Sikhism so it could be viewed as anti-Gurmat.

 

[kds1980]

I don't think its has much to do with the Guru's teaching but more of a cultural practice around when he was alive by Kshatriyas.

Jhatka itself is not a ceremony, all it means is one blow. However, Jhatka can be used in a ritual, or part of one. Herre there are two parts. The Jhatka or blessing, an the Shastar Tilak.

Shastar Tilak or blood anointment of weapons is a Kshatriya practice, nothing to do with Sikhism so it could be viewed as anti-Gurmat.

The rituals like chatka or putting blood on weapons developed so an average warrior could develop strong heart so he can see bloodshed in battlefield.I can bet that these days if you put an average sikh in ancient type of battle then more than 90% will faint ,when they see the bloodshed and destruction in battlefield.

 

[Admin]

I read somewhere that history of Nihungs predates the formal creation of Khalsa and they joined Khalsa forces after submitting to Guru Gobind Singh Ji a bit latter on...

If that was case then it is but obvious that Nihungs brought alongwith them some of their own traditions which had enormous Hindu traditional influence and these traditions with the passage of time became part of Sikh traditions eventually. If we closely study the dress code of nihungs, even today they have an enormous influence of warrior traditions of Hindus.

The amalgamation of Sikh - Hindu traditions today has come out to be known as Sanatan Sikhism...

Thank you for a fascinating discussion on this topic.

 

[max314]

Excellent thread.

Thank you very much for your valuable insights.

 

[findingmyway]

Just to clarify:
Whats shown in the video is a cultural thing rather than a religious thing?
I have no problems with the jhatka, but the fact it is done for sacrificial reasons (shastar tilak) does bother me. Also, it being carried out in the Gurdwara and the blood being taken into the darbar hall seems to endorse the procedure as a Sikh thing. Surely if its only cultural, it should be done elsewhere?

 

[Randip Singh]

Just to clarify:
Whats shown in the video is a cultural thing rather than a religious thing?
I have no problems with the jhatka, but the fact it is done for sacrificial reasons (shastar tilak) does bother me. Also, it being carried out in the Gurdwara and the blood being taken into the darbar hall seems to endorse the procedure as a Sikh thing. Surely if its only cultural, it should be done elsewhere?

Unfortunately there are a lot of cultural influences on stuff that happens in Gurudwara today.

I mean why do people circum navigate the Golak? Need to purify things? Read non-stop prayers etc?

I bet if you put your mind to it, you could find hundreds of Cultural things that happen in Gurudwaras!

 

[Shanger]

Does this mean that Sikh's cannot eat meat killed in a ritualistic manner unless it is killed with one blow?

 

[kds1980]

Does this mean that Sikh's cannot eat meat killed in a ritualistic manner unless it is killed with one blow?

at present the restriction is only on halal

 

[spnadmin]

at present the restriction is only on halal

Yes! Literally the phrase is "killed in the Muslim way," or halal. Thanks

 

[Randip Singh]

at present the restriction is only on halal

I would argue that the SGPC translation of the word "Kuttha" is wrong. It broadly means that which is "ritually purified", or "sacrificed to God".

 

[mannii]

I have read that article before but I am still stuck on whether we can eat meat or not. I am a vegetarian but try to stop my dad and brother eating meat. But then the line, 'FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH ' and something along the lines of ' they argue about eating meat and not eating meat.......everything is meat' (something like that)- it stops me from telling them to not eat it. I have also heard of amritdhari Sikhs who eat meat and the nihang singhs who do JHATKA and loads of people have arguments of the hazoor sahib incident. I have visited a lot of Sikh websites and all of them have different views, some of them are for and some of them are against. so I get confused! I decide to leave it to god and if it is his choice they will eventually stop eating it.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

1. Points to note:
This "debate" was RAGING just as FIERCLY when GURU Nanak ji decided to settle it once and for all for Sikhs...hence this and other shabads.
2. STRONG and hARSH Language..FOOLS...WRANGLING..arguments..almost coming to Blows..Violence against the "opponents"....GURU JI also uses STRONG LANGUGE because this subject and its context and OVERBEARING on "religion" demands such.
3. Efforts at "duplicity..Holier than THOU attitudes, superior attitudes...THEN and EVEN TODAY....
4. Efforts to IMPOSE ones own Views on the OTHER side...then and even Today ( ..."try and STOP my brothers and Dad from eating meat....).

A careful reading of Gurbani will reveal numerous instances where Guur Ji has simialrly tackled issues of "dress"...wearing double dhotis, outer garb, religious symbols marks etc etc to show the exact same issues as in eating/not eating meat...BUT these Shabads dont excite as much..simply becasue..."dress" is an accepted and settled issue..the Saffron robed dont go about ....trying to STOP others form wearing suits/patiala salwars/pants....although a FEW such are slowly gaining ground against wearing ..Jeans..tight clothing..revealing styles etc etc UNDER GARB of Holier than Thou..I ma more religious than YOU types who try to IMPOSE their own narrow views on others..BUT GENERALLY "dress" has been left alone...BUT Not..."DIET" ?? Begs the question why ??..Also NOTICE..ALL DERAS/DEHDHAREE GURUDOMS..Radha Soamis, Namdharees, Nirankarees (fake), Sauda saadh, Noormehal, Ashutosh....110% are ANTI_MEAT !! Have these Dehdharees and FAKES understood GURU NANAK JI Better than Mainstream SIKHS who still support Jhatka/and Ban Hallal ?? ALL THESE DERAWADEES and Human GURUS also SUPPORT anti-SIKH forces, are totally AGAINST SGGS, Panj Piayaras concept, Sikh Khandeh batte dee Pahul, etc etc..Kakaars etc etc...

5. DIET is NOT ..."gods choice..his choice..etc etc.." ITS YOUR CHOICE. period. He has provided all and every type of FOOD..its up to YOU to choose. Dont use a LOOPHOLE and blame HIM..or abdicate your own responsibility to read and understand the GURBANI and hope it will all be all right..as its "his" choice..he will handle it..blah blah blah..READ SGGS with OPEN MIND< OPEN EYES, OPEN HEART...and make your own DECISION.japposatnamwaheguru:

 

[singh is king]

Re: Is halal meat scientifically proven right?

Eating meat means you are killing (or somebody else for you) an innocant animal for your taste, So doesn't matter Jhatka or Halal. I think only difference is poor animal is killed with cruilty in term of Halal but killed anyway.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Is halal meat scientifically proven right?

Eating meat means you are killing (or somebody else for you) an innocant animal for your taste, So doesn't matter Jhatka or Halal. I think only difference is poor animal is killed with cruilty in term of Halal but killed anyway.

GURU NANAK JI settled that debate with this...500 years ago..

QUOTE:...OH Pandit..YOU dont even KNOW the difference between "meat"..and "saag"....What is Saag ?? What is MEAT ?... ALL LIFE BEGINS WITH WATER !!! the Very First building block of LIFE is WATER.....

BUT still we never accept GURU JI..and keep on WRANGLING like MOORAKHS.

GURBANI is ONE. No two ways about any gurbani....no Contradictions no confusion...what use if Guru ji left us with CONFUSION ?? we INSULT GURU JI when we say..we are CONFUSED..Gurbani says.."Black"..and then it says "WHITE"...Is that so ?? NO GURBANI ONLY SAYS ONE THING....ALL LIFE IS from the same CREATOR..all plants, all bacteria..all cows and all pigs. Period. ITS HUMANS who misinterpret..and confuse themselves...HUMANS who say that GURU JI DID NOT SETTLE THIS DEBATE with FINALITY. GURU JI DID. period. we dont accept.period too.

 

[TigerStyleZ]

Confused about the non - veg thread

WJK WJkF,

I have read the "I am Confused Whether Allowed to Eat Non-Veg"
thread, but now i´m confused, Can someone give me please, the clear answer? Is there something written in GGS/gurbani? Can i eat meat or not?
My parents raised me saying that i am not allowed the eat meat, especially cow- meat, because we take everything from the cow, milk, goa as manuer. So I´ve never eat cow -meat only sometimes chicken... What is with the babes`who don´t eat meet and eggs etc?? Please, help me!!
Can a amritdhari sikh eat meet or not? I need a clearly answer please.

 

[Archived_Member16]

Re: Confused about the non - veg thread

Please review the following link for the information you are seaking:

Misconceptions About Eating Meat
by Sandeep Singh Brar

Link: http://www.sikhs.org/meat.htm

( NOTE: Click on

for each item )

 

[findingmyway]

Re: Confused about the non - veg thread

The only restriction is ritually slaughtered meat. This thread will answer all your questions. It is long but please take the time to go through it as it will clear all doubts
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

Your diet is your own choice.

 

[TigerStyleZ]

Re: Confused about the non - veg thread

Thanks, i will read it clearly!

 

[TigerStyleZ]

Re: Confused about the non - veg thread

Wow... I can´t really believe this anyway that, amritdhari Sikhs can eat meat... Im confused is this forum true? So, I can eat meat .. What if someone ask me about it, when I eat meat?