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Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana - A Debate

spnadmin

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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

OK jios. I have found the source of the problem. Not that it didn't take me a half hour.

In post number 62 Forum Member Jasleen ji includes the following quotes. The first is quote of me quoting Wikipedia. In other words, not my original idea. Someone else wrote that statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aad0002
  • Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld.
Below you will see another quote in Post 62, directly under my ID, aad0002, and it looks like something I said, and therefore it could have been my opinion. Right? Wrong!

Quote:
I don’t belive in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashnavite leanings.


The problem is, respected forum members, I never said -- "I don't believe in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashavite learnings. "

Someone else said that.

If you read Post 53, you will discover who is the true author of this statement. And if you take the time to read his entire comment, you will discover that he was WEIGHING ARGUMENTS looking at one side and then the other side of the controversy.

This is what happens when we don't suspend judgment for a second or two, and ask ourselves whether the other guy might actually deserve to be heard The one who may disagree with us on a point here or there, but with whom we may share many other perspectives.

But I will remember all of us in Ardaas tomorrow at gurdwara.
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

In post number 62 Forum Member Jasleen ji includes the following quotes. The first is quote of me quoting Wikipedia. In other words, not my original idea. Someone else wrote that statement.

Thankyou for clarifying, as it was really surprising if you had said this. Perhaps the way you quoted in your original post left something unclear. this is why we immediately wanted to clarify that Guru's bani is NOT a Hinduized concept. As you can imagine, anyone would jump. And I did provide Gurbani to support that those concepts are in fact found In Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so no person would misunderstand Sikh faith in the mischevious way KA has been attempting to misportray it.
Below you will see another quote in Post 62, directly under my ID, aad0002, and it looks like something I said, and therefore it could have been my opinion. Right? Wrong!
Quote:
I don’t belive in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashnavite leanings.

The problem is, respected forum members, I never said -- "I don't believe in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashavite learnings. "

Someone else said that.
Because it was unclear, it needed to be clarified. this is a public forum after all, and great care should be taken with regards our Guruji's bani. Have you ever said paath with other people? And the moment you make a mistake, everyone in the room corrects you? And if you are learning paath, every 5 min someone is stopping you to correct your mistake? That's how Sikh's treat Gurbani. Whenever there is something mistated, it needs to be clarified. No need for hurt feelings. I'm very happy you didn't state this. Because I would be disappointed if you had. What is important is the clarity of Gurbani. Because if 3 people on this post weren't clear what was said, others could also take the message that concepts found in Gurbani are Hindu. And sadly, that kind of disrespect of Gurbani and game-playing intellectualism is what KA is all about, as you noted.

Since we are talking about an issue very important to the Panth, which involves the value of Gurbani, the authority of Akal Takht Sahib Ji, the legitimacy of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani, and questioning the authority of Akal Takht to excommunicate KA, as well as the integrity of the Panthic Jatha's and news agencies reporting this coverage to the Panth... There is no room to misstate KA and send the message that Guru's bani is Hindu. And I thank you for that clarification.
If you read Post 53, you will discover who is the true author of this statement. And if you take the time to read his entire comment, you will discover that he was WEIGHING ARGUMENTS looking at one side and then the other side of the controversy.
KA is a declared apostate and all his supporters are warned from the central Sikh religious authority NOT to support him or tolerate nindya of Gurbani. Therefore, no one can "weigh arguments" unless they challenge the authority of Guru Khalsa Panth in Panj Piare which has already declared it's decision.
This is what happens when we don't suspend judgment for a second or two, and ask ourselves whether the other guy might actually deserve to be heard The one who may disagree with us on a point here or there, but with whom we may share many other perspectives.
How can Sikhs under siege with GOI agents wrecking havoc with our religious teaching FAIL to be diligent when confronting controversy? Especially dealing with a declared tankiya like KA, we should watch very carefully what is being said which might hide KA's disrespect for Gurbani, for Akal Takht, for Panthic organizations, and for the Sikh sangat in those cleverly constructed arguments.

These are delicate matters and due care is required. Most especially the Panth had uncovered this previous lawsuit regarding his behavior and character, which is relevant to evaluate the kind of person we are dealing with, when so many argue in his favor AGAINST Akal Takht and the Panth. Yet, Panthic news agencies were denigrated, their credibility challenged. Even 5 or more times the legal citation for KA's case was posted with various sources, including reputable law journals. And it took that much to silence the objection defending his outrageous misconduct in the clothing of a Khalsa and a priest. That hardly constitutes dispassionate and objective analysis.

The bottom line for every Sikh is not what you challenge or weigh and decide for yourself. That's manmat. But what is Gurmat? And Gurmat can never contradict GurShabad or Guru Panj Piare. The moment we undermine Gurmat Gursikhi, we will create conditions where Granthis molest people in our temples and we tolerate arguing for tolerance in order to defend the indefensible. Or do we think we are a better judge than Guru about Panthic matters?
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

A lot of people don't really understand the complex issues involving the manipulation of Sikh faith and identity by the government of India. Sangat piare jio please watch the videos are they will provide a better perspective for understanding people like Kala Afghana, sant Nirankaris and the dissemination campaign by Indian intelligence agencies on Sikh religious teaching to divide Sikhs. Let's not forget the larger picture at stake here in all these delicate issues in the Panth today.

1984 Documentry On Sikhs Part ONE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuHssUwDyWY

1984 Documentary On Sikhs PART2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhUNzxKoYb8

1984 Documentry On Sikhs Part THREE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBbyVU8HmZY

1984 Documentary On Sikhs PART4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6UF6wBKUe8

1984 Documentary On Sikhs PART 5 Final
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLeKjXjhzH8
 

spnadmin

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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Harjas ji

I think it is sad that you have not yet grasped what has happened here. Here is what you have just stated. Do not evade your responsibility.

Because it was unclear, it needed to be clarified. this is a public forum after all, and great care should be taken with regards our Guruji's bani. Have you ever said paath with other people? And the moment you make a mistake, everyone in the room corrects you? And if you are learning paath, every 5 min someone is stopping you to correct your mistake? That's how Sikh's treat Gurbani. Whenever there is something mistated, it needs to be clarified. No need for hurt feelings. I'm very happy you didn't state this. Because I would be disappointed if you had. What is important is the clarity of Gurbani. Because if 3 people on this post weren't clear what was said, others could also take the message that concepts found in Gurbani are Hindu. And sadly, that kind of disrespect of Gurbani and game-playing intellectualism is what KA is all about, as you noted.

Who are you to say "no need for hurt feelings?" Who are you to express relief that I "didn't state this?" So far the only Gurbani twister in this thread has been Kala Afghana.

There is no way that a mere mortal can clarify a statement that he/she did not make in the first place.
Two "quotes" one of me and one of someone else, neither one expressing my views, taken out of context, placed side by side, and you say you choked on your tea. Now it is you playing mind games.

Everything else that I have said in this thread pointed in the opposite direction of my meaning. These two voiceless quotes were placed side by side. On the basis of this you wrote 3 separate comments impugning the sincerity of my faith in great detail. Who are you to judge who is among the faithful and who is not?

Here is the lesson that I learned. There is still too much attachment in me. I allowed you to have this kind of power over me. Before you take others to task again on the purity of their belief, please stop and think about what you are doing. They may be in more pain than I am. They may not have the energy to find themselves and spring back.
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

There is no way that a mere mortal can clarify a statement that he/she did not make in the first place.
But you just did in your post where you said, "I did not say that. Those were not my ideas." It was fully clarified that no disrespect for Gurbani on your part occured, you were quoting from a source who was disrespectful to Guru's bani.

and you say you choked on your tea. Now it is you playing mind games.
I choked on my tea to read the unclear passage which led me to believ you had said Gurbani was a Hindu concept. If you would take the time to view the videos, it would become clear to you why that statement would be so objectionable. As I have already stated a few times now, I'm very glad you didn't state it, but that it had come from KA... which it figures. As to games... I try hard to be quite clear.
I allowed you to have this kind of power over me. Before you take others to task again on the purity of their belief, please stop and think about what you are doing.
I invited you to have understanding by viewing the videos. The entire "delicate matter" of the Panth would be immeasurable clearer than continuing this debate. Purity of belief is precisely what is at issue here. But you must grasp the historical context to know why it is such a delicate issue.

I'm sorry you were so offended personally. I would have jumped at anyone... and anyone I know would have jumped at me for saying what KA did about Guru's bani.
These two voiceless quotes were placed side by side. On the basis of this you wrote 3 separate comments impugning the sincerity of my faith in great detail.
Those comments are not voiceless, indeed they are reverberating all over the Panth, hence the excommunication of KA. I did not impugn your faith, I tried to correct that Guru's bani included Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld. Because anyone who says these are not Sikh teaching but are Vaishnav Hindu concepts is creating problems in the Panth. Again, I'm sorry to upset you, but the way I read as it was already posted with your name, it did indeed look like you had said it. But regardless who said it, it is a mischevious game-playing with words which directly insults Gurbani. So even if it had not been your name attached, which was a mistake, but no deliberation on Jasleen Kaur ji's part, as she asked for clarification... even if it had KA name attached, which it rightly should have, I would have choked on my tea and gone to Gurbani to prove those concepts are words of Guru from Shabad Guru Ji Maharaaj and NOT Hindu.
 

spnadmin

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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Then madam, you should consider this. Each person who is a member here may or may not be a member of the Panth. But they are not strings on a violin that reverberate with ignorance each time a crackpot instigates controversy. Have a little more faith, in the rest of us and in yourself.

I am beginning to understand even better now.
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

What happened to you Aad0002 was your name got attached to quotes, because you had quoted a conversation. It looked to Jasleen Kaur Ji like you were answering in your own words.

We are not upset with you personally. So stop making a drama. We are upset with the words. And in fact the entire Khalsa Panth is upset with the words, which is why KA is even being discussed here. May I politely say, your missing the huge issue fretting about a perceived slight which is founded on a mistake in fact and thus has nothing to do with you, but directly goes to the tankiya which led to KA being excommunicated. KA offends Sikh sentiments with statements such as he made.
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Who are you to say "no need for hurt feelings?" Who are you to express relief that I "didn't state this?"
I am saying there is no need for hurt feelings because there was no intent to hurt your feelings. Rather the intent was to correct the material mistatements (which we can now correctly attribute to KA)> Bear in mind I too am human, and I read those quotes having your name on them, so I addressed my concerns and responses to you. Who am I to state anything>? I am a human being with God's Divine spark and following this incredible controversy and the destructive effect it is having on MY Panth, and being a member of a forum which is a place to discuss concerns and issues, I CLAIM THE RIGHT TO ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES. Else, why have a forum or allow controversial topics if people get so offended personally they can't discuss? I do not even question why a Muslim is writing on these forums. But i DO question ANYONE who says Guruji's bani is HINDU!

Now let us stop this.

"So far the only Gurbani twister in this thread has been Kala Afghana."
Without question.
 

pk70

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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

KA is a declared apostate and all his supporters are warned from the central Sikh religious authority NOT to support him or tolerate nindya of Gurbani. Therefore, no one can "weigh arguments" unless they challenge the authority of Guru Khalsa Panth in Panj Piare which has already declared it's decision.


With all due respect, I am sorry to disagree with you on this approach, it sounds more dogmatic than religious or spiritual approach.
Dr Piar Singh was punished by Akal Takhat for writing something and he accepted it; however, When Gyani Gurdit Singh wrote" Mundawani" and it was not liked by Akal Takhat but he was spared because he was a good friend of Joginder Singh Vedanti(Jadedar Akal takhat)< why this double standarad by Akal Takhat? Now don't get me wrong here about KA( as I just cant stand him)


How can Sikhs under siege with GOI agents wrecking havoc with our religious teaching FAIL to be diligent when confronting controversy? Especially dealing with a declared tankiya like KA, we should watch very carefully what is being said which might hide KA's disrespect for Gurbani, for Akal Takht, for Panthic organizations, and for the Sikh sangat in those cleverly constructed arguments.


If I read correctly, Aad0002 was not talking about other groups as you have quoted She was hinting towards SPN members who respond to the opposite views.
I recommend you to reread her comments in this context.

.

The bottom line for every Sikh is not what you challenge or weigh and decide for yourself. That's manmat. But what is Gurmat? And Gurmat can never contradict GurShabad or Guru Panj Piare.



Are you suggesting that tolerance, analyzing the truth if questionable are against Gurmat? I hold strong feeling that some of bani in Dasam Granth ji is not authored by our Glorious Guru Gobind Singh ji (and this controversy is acknoledged by a lot of Sikh circles who are members of SGPC.) So am I anti Gutmat? This kind of approach will reduce us to lovers of ritualism again; Satguru Nanak ji devoted his entire life against such things. Forgive me if I have to disagree with you!
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

    • Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld.
    KA writes:
    I don’t belive in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashnavite leanings.
We are having a debate about the above comments. Aad0002 is upset because they were mistakenly attributed to her for which I apologized already.
KA is a declared apostate and all his supporters are warned from the central Sikh religious authority NOT to support him or tolerate nindya of Gurbani. Therefore, no one can "weigh arguments" unless they challenge the authority of Guru Khalsa Panth in Panj Piare which has already declared it's decision.

With all due respect, I am sorry to disagree with you on this approach, it sounds more dogmatic than religious or spiritual approach.
Dr Piar Singh was punished by Akal Takhat for writing something and he accepted it; however, When Gyani Gurdit Singh wrote" Mundawani" and it was not liked by Akal Takhat but he was spared because he was a good friend of Joginder Singh Vedanti(Jadedar Akal takhat)< why this double standarad by Akal Takhat? Now don't get me wrong here about KA( as I just cant stand him)
With all due respect I was talking specifically about Kala Afghana (KA).


When Gyani Gurdit Singh wrote" Mundawani" and it was not liked by Akal Takhat but he was spared because he was a good friend of Joginder Singh Vedanti(Jadedar Akal takhat)< why this double standarad by Akal Takhat? Now don't get me wrong here about KA( as I just cant stand him)
I don't have any knowledge of this, nor do I see the relevance in lending support or credibility to a tankiya by alleging double standards and thus undermining the authority of Akal Takht Sahib Ji. If you have a personal issue with Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti, perhaps you should address him directly. Panthically I have issues with a lot of things. But I don't undermine my support for hukamnama of Akal Takht because that is Guru Saroop for me.
"How can Sikhs under siege with GOI agents wrecking havoc with our religious teaching FAIL to be diligent when confronting controversy? Especially dealing with a declared tankiya like KA, we should watch very carefully what is being said which might hide KA's disrespect for Gurbani, for Akal Takht, for Panthic organizations, and for the Sikh sangat in those cleverly constructed arguments."

If I read correctly, Aad0002 was not talking about other groups as you have quoted She was hinting towards SPN members who respond to the opposite views. I recommend you to reread her comments in this context.
We were discussing the statement of KA specifically regarding his statement that certain concepts from Gurbani are a Vaishnaiv Hindu concept. We are discussing that this quotation was mistakenly attributed to her for which she became upset. And my quote was in response to her statement which I shall reconstruct from my post:
Quote:
This is what happens when we don't suspend judgment for a second or two, and ask ourselves whether the other guy might actually deserve to be heard The one who may disagree with us on a point here or there, but with whom we may share many other perspectives.

How can Sikhs under siege with GOI agents wrecking havoc with our religious teaching FAIL to be diligent when confronting controversy? Especially dealing with a declared tankiya like KA, we should watch very carefully what is being said which might hide KA's disrespect for Gurbani, for Akal Takht, for Panthic organizations, and for the Sikh sangat in those cleverly constructed arguments.
The bottom line for every Sikh is not what you challenge or weigh and decide for yourself. That's manmat. But what is Gurmat? And Gurmat can never contradict GurShabad or Guru Panj Piare.

Are you suggesting that tolerance, analyzing the truth if questionable are against Gurmat? I hold strong feeling that some of bani in Dasam Granth ji is not authored by our Glorious Guru Gobind Singh ji (and this controversy is acknoledged by a lot of Sikh circles who are members of SGPC.) So am I anti Gutmat? This kind of approach will reduce us to lovers of ritualism again; Satguru Nanak ji devoted his entire life against such things. Forgive me if I have to disagree with you!
Gursikh doesn't challenge Guru. If there is an issue, the Gursikh is to take resolution through Panj Piare and not through activities which divide the Panth and cause controversy as activities of Gurbask Singh Kala Afghana. I spoke directly to the issue of KA in this comment as I shall reconstruct my post again for clarity.

These are delicate matters and due care is required. Most especially the Panth had uncovered this previous lawsuit regarding his behavior and character, which is relevant to evaluate the kind of person we are dealing with, when so many argue in his favor AGAINST Akal Takht and the Panth. Yet, Panthic news agencies were denigrated, their credibility challenged. Even 5 or more times the legal citation for KA's case was posted with various sources, including reputable law journals. And it took that much to silence the objection defending his outrageous misconduct in the clothing of a Khalsa and a priest. That hardly constitutes dispassionate and objective analysis.

The bottom line for every Sikh is not what you challenge or weigh and decide for yourself. That's manmat. But what is Gurmat? And Gurmat can never contradict GurShabad or Guru Panj Piare. The moment we undermine Gurmat Gursikhi, we will create conditions where Granthis molest people in our temples and we tolerate arguing for tolerance in order to defend the indefensible. Or do we think we are a better judge than Guru about Panthic matters?
As you can clearly see what was taken from my post was in context of challenging the decision of Akal Takht regarding the excommunication of Kala Afghana, and not regarding legitimate and individual questions related to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani. Thank you for the opportunity to clarify.

And how many times do I have to apologize to Aad0002 over what was a mistake in fact and not any deliberate intent to cause her stress or suffering?

Earlier on 14 May, 2000 Sri Akal Takhat Sahib had imposed a ban on debating the issue of Dasam Granth in public. However by its amending order of 27th November, 2006 noted that anti-Sikh elements continued with their tirade against Dasam Banee and now declared those elements speaking and writing against Sri Dasam Granth as mischief mongers and ordered the Sikh intellectuals to come forward and give befitting reply to those creating controversies.

The Seminar was thus an implementation of the diktats of Akal Takhat Sahib.

Panthic Weekly: International Seminar on Dasam Granth Sahib
Panthic Weekly: First Dasam Granth Seminar Held in North America
See above for any issue of inclarity regarding bani of Sri Dasam Granth.
 

pk70

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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji

Thanks for clarifying, I applaud that.
Regarding aad0002, my intention was to give you hint that you misread her views, nothing more than that. Both of you are Gursikhs and I just feel to clear misunderstanding if any.
 
Apr 4, 2007
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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

OK jios. I have found the source of the problem. Not that it didn't take me a half hour.

In post number 62 Forum Member Jasleen ji includes the following quotes. The first is quote of me quoting Wikipedia. In other words, not my original idea. Someone else wrote that statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aad0002
  • Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld.
Below you will see another quote in Post 62, directly under my ID, aad0002, and it looks like something I said, and therefore it could have been my opinion. Right? Wrong!

Quote:
I don’t belive in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashnavite leanings.


The problem is, respected forum members, I never said -- "I don't believe in these things either. All Hindu concepts, nothing to do with Sikhism. They have some unwittingly Vashavite learnings. "

Someone else said that.

If you read Post 53, you will discover who is the true author of this statement. And if you take the time to read his entire comment, you will discover that he was WEIGHING ARGUMENTS looking at one side and then the other side of the controversy.

This is what happens when we don't suspend judgment for a second or two, and ask ourselves whether the other guy might actually deserve to be heard The one who may disagree with us on a point here or there, but with whom we may share many other perspectives.

But I will remember all of us in Ardaas tomorrow at gurdwara.


i apologize. i am a fool and have not yet mastered the art of quoting multiple people. i tried to do it by keeping your name in the bits from your post and leaving no name in the responses... sorry, i will try to figure out how to use this system better.
 
Apr 4, 2007
934
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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

What happened to you Aad0002 was your name got attached to quotes, because you had quoted a conversation. It looked to Jasleen Kaur Ji like you were answering in your own words.

not exactly. this is all my mistake in formatting, nothing more. i AGAIN apologize to everyone i so irresponsibly mislead with my poor formatting.

Antonia posted a wikipedia list of greviances against KA. Randip Singh agreed with KA on several items in the list. all i wanted to do was discuss Randir's answers with him! i thought if i only responded to his answer and not the question he was answering, it would seem out of context. when i used the "quote reply" option, it only quoted his answers not the questions. so i stupidly quoted the questions as well. because it was Antonia who posted the questions, her name got attached.

it is completely and 100% my fault.

i have edited post 62 to try to make it more clear.
 
Last edited:
Feb 14, 2006
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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

I am no Gursikh Pk70, as my faults can plainly be seen by all. But I try to be a good person and hope with Guru's piare that I can become one.
 

Randip Singh

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Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

i have read and am continuing to read books on sikh history. by sikhs, persians, and european missionaries.

one portuguese missionary described the torture of Guru Arjun Sahib and said that he withstood impossible pain with dignity. i'll get the book, source, and exact quote as soon as i finish unpacking my new house, sorry i can't give you the reference now.


I think I may have read this. Get the source. You are however missing my point. Whether he feinted or didn't is irrelevant. We are arguing about an irrelevant point.

you don't believe Guru's created miracles? i do. 100%. the important thing is that they did not make miracles on the demand of others, nor did they use them for personal gain. but to say they were mere human beings is incredibly insulting to me. if you claim to believe SGGS as your guru, you would know that Guru is far more than a "normal human being".


I do not believe in miracles, and the Guru's own conduct confirms this. They did not perform miracles and did not ascribe to them.

There is nothing insulting in calling Guru's Human Beings. They were just that. They were not Gods, Demi-God's, Alien BEINGS. They were Human beings, albeit Human Beings with a much higher level of conscience than the average human. Their bodies felt pain, they felt love, they felt anguish. What made them different from the average human was their ability to control their human emotions.

This game of playing miracles and one upmanship is the distasteful aspect I find in other faiths. The only way they can prove how great and religious their religious figures were is by stating how many miracles their own figures made. Luckily for us Sikhism does not play such a game.


and what is your problem with AKJ, 3HO, etc? why do you make reference against them in nearly every post?


I have a problem with all organisations that cause division in Sikhism, and in particular with those (like these), that have Vashnavite leanings.

AKJ is particular is responsible for a wave of intolerance, remanicent of Wahabism, that is plagueing Sikhism at the moment.

it seems like i used to agree with you on many issues, but lately your statements seem very different. what has changed?


I normally try not to get too involved in debates outside Bani and Bani interpretation, however, I find witch hunts of individuals such as KA by organisation such as AKJ, newspapers like Panthic Weekly (should be renamed Pathetic Weekly) etc distasteful. Even more than KA, these organisations and institutions, by their autocratic actions are undermining the Sikhism.

I believe in giving people a fair chance, and demonising them and posting cases of sexual allegations are not the ways to do it. Lets debate the issue, not the person. It is not secret that Bhai Randhir Singh's fanatical followers have an axe to grind against KA. I think they will stoop to any lengths to try and discredit him, rather than challenge his beliefs. I have not seen anyone actually debate what this fellow wrote. The same happened with that Professor Ghaggha fellow.

In any case, we cannot agree on everything. I do not agree with everything with my wife, so why should we agree with everything? J


Best Wishes
 

Randip Singh

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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Randip ji, and other jios!

In order to make any sense of this I had to put the sexual elements of the debate to one side. Calling attention a person's character or his lack of education, in order to undermine his/her argument, is a form of logical fallacy called argumentum ad hominem. Evidence of low character tells us that a person has a low character. Evidence of low character does not shed light on whether or not his/her argument is supportable in evidence or in logic. Lack of education does not necessarily impair the ability to think clearly.

My own position on this is not objective either. I am suggesting that KA was picking at some assumptions believed by him to be baseless -- his motivations are unclear to me at this time. To date he has managed to rile a lot of people up, managed to get himself excommunicated (which probably doesn't bother him, again one has to imagine why), and achieved this by throwing a long list of allegations into the arena, none of which strike at the core of the Sikh religion. If you don't agree with me on that last point, just for the moment indulge me. My question is: why did he bother?

He is not going to find much in SGGS to support each and every one of his points independently. A handful of tuks. That is all. Similarly his opponents are not going to find much in SGGS to refute him. Even where history can give some arguments some weight, historical evidence doesn't help him either.

Two examples.

Baba Deep Singh Ji's memorial: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place.

This allegation cannot be supported in Gurbani. It can't be refuted in Gurbani either. One has to depend on the oral tradition to support this statement. The oral tradition is a fallible source of evidence in any culture. Even if archaeologists found bones, could they prove they belonged to Baba ji? It doesn't matter. What matters is his conclusion -- idol worship is being promoted. Here KA is himelf drawing a faulty conclusion -- KA has neither evidence nor logic on his side. He is making a claim that suits his agenda or frame of mind-- whatever that is - by attributing motives to people, as if he is a mind reader. Go through the list. There are a number of arguments like this one about Baba Deep Singh ji and his head. In the end, it is the moral of the story about Baba Deep Singh that is a core belief in Sikhism, not Baba's head or where is fell.

This is the one that slays me the most.
Khanday-Batay, Amrit & Mantar: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief.

Imagine that I am waiting quietly during the amrit ceremony for my turn to be baptized. I am nervous, I don't know how I will react, I want to feel the force of the Naam enter my heart. But in the back of mind I have this doubt. Maybe KA is right. Maybe the ceremony is based on a incredible belief. Would this really stop me dead? And would I run out of the ceremony thinking, WoW I have just narrowly escaped from the trap of Hindu thought and saved my intellectual integrity? Of course not. All of this is hypothetical in my case, but of course I would not react this way. Who else would run away once he/she was now aware of KA's claim? The only person to run away would be the person missing the real point of the amrit ceremony. If panj pyaare did not use this ritual they would use another ritual. And ritual is important for symbolic reasons -- ritual conveys the spiritual content of an event, it solemnizes the event. The mantar was chosen because of its spiritual content.

So I was trying to be very responsible in thinking through KA's points. Trying to find historical support and support from Gurmat (or lack of support in Gurmat) when it finally hit me -- I might agree with him about something in fact or theory, but his arguments are only theoretically interesting. He is toying with people.

some nice points.

Lets debate issues like this rather than people.
 

Randip Singh

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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

i think the vast majority of people wash their feet for the same reason they wash their hands, for the same reason we shower before our morning nitmen, for the same reason we do panj ishnaan before Rehras sahib. out of respect for Guru. what kind of respect does it show if we track dirty footprints all over the clean floor/sheets of the Gurdwara? and WHY make such an issue of it?


I made a point before, that in the west it is less dusty. I don't know about others, but I am immaculately clean. I shower twice a day. My feet and hands are very clean. I do not see the need for why I must wash my feet. I see people around me do it, and it seems more like a ritual to me.

This concept of respect for Guruji and washing? Our Guru's kept company with some of the most unclean so called low life people as can be deemed at that time in history, so I don't hold to that argument. To my mind it has become a ritual.

so amrit vela is only relevant for some people in the world but not others? that seems discriminatory, which is certainly anti-gurmat. amrit vela is mentioned hundreds of times in SGGS... i thought you guys believed everything in SGGS?


Is it mentioned? If so when did it become a concept formally for Sikhs? Did Sikhs in say 1755 keep Amritvela? Or did they rise early anyway? The concept of Amritvela is to clear your mind before you start the day. Get yourself spiritually in tune. It is time for yourself, but for some it has become a ritual. I used to hear people bragging as to how early they get up for Amritvela.

I think the concept behind Amritvela must be analysed, and also an analysis of what it has become today.

is bowing or showing respect the same as idol worship? when we matha tek to SGGS are we worshiping Guru? i know i'm not... ?


Interesting point. I think for some the reason why we do this has become a form of worship. The ritual now involves, bowing, praying their for ages, circumnavigating SGGSji, bowing again etc etc.

in Sohila, Guru Ramdas tells us to bow before great saints. was Baba Deep Singh ji not a saint?


ਕਰਿਸਾਧੂਅੰਜੁਲੀਪੁਨੁਵਡਾਹੇkar saaDhoo anjulee pun vadaa hay.
Greet the Holy Saint with your palms pressed together; this is an act of great merit.



ਕਰਿਡੰਡਉਤਪੁਨੁਵਡਾਹੇ੧॥ਰਹਾਉkar dand-ut pun vadaa hay. ((1)) rahaa-o.
Bow down before Him; this is a virtuous action indeed. ((1)(Pause))


So when does paying respect become worship? What I have witnessed seems to have become worship.



so instead you believe Guru ji did parlour tricks to fool the audience?


Hmmm Jasleen, making inflamatory acusations like this does not do you any justice or me any favours. A third person reading this would probably view me as the devil.

Like all Teachers test their pupils so did the Guru's. The entire concept behind what occurred on Basakhi all those years ago was devised so only the bravest may survive. When Guruji appeared with blood on his sword and the first person do you know how many people ran away? It was not a trick, not a miracles of bringing people to life, but a test, and a test that worked and ensured Sikhi's survival. Only the bravest and strongest became Sikhs.


exactly. so why does he say it? why would it have anything to do with "enemies" of the faith?


All I am asking is this guys reasoning behind it, and not to attack him personally.



the janam sakhis, local legends, and the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas ji all describe miracles of the Gurus.


Varan Bhai Gurdas is very cryptic in the way it is written. It talks about Goats talking etc etc. Many metaphors and the way "Sufi's and Saints" would communicate with one another.

Janamsakhi's are anecdotal, and some of the stories must be taken with a pinch of salt. Of the 4 Sakhi's I have looked at for the same incident there have been 4 different versions, however, the meaning behind the story exactly the same.


i've even experienced a miracle myself. : - ) or at least something completely unexplainable by me or by doctors.


well good for you.

i wonder why our Gurus would do brahmanical rituals?


You must understand that not all customs and rituals would have disappeared overnight. Would the Guru's have greeted people with Sat Sri Akal or another greeting? Understand the concept of Charan Amrit in its context. You are reading eyewitness accounts then read Amandeep Madra's book on eyewitness accounts of Sikhs and you will see Charan Amrit there too.

about ALL amritdharis? there are bad apples in every bunch. it's not fair to criticize an entire group of people for the actions of a very few.


You know a friend said to me one, bad things happen not because bad people do them, but because good people do nothing.


for example?


His writings in Udit Duniya.

Beliefs in heaven and hell as real places. Angels, demi-gods, devil's etc. There are others too.


so why are they mentioned repeatedly in SGGS? were our Gurus Vashnavite?


They are metaphors.


what are the brahmanical tinges?


Before receiving Amrit was like getting a degree. Now it’s a ritual with sects and others adding their own spin to it.


not RSS, Congress. : - ) his point is to divide the panth, how better than to call respected Sikhs as hindus?


I think the Panth is doing a great job on division without KA. In any religion group, organisation it is healthy to have debate and question, and if KA is doing that it is good, if he is not then lets defeat his points by debate and not character assasination.
 

Randip Singh

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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Randip Singh, why do you go around deliberately trying to make Gurmat sources seem untrustworthy, while arguing vehemently for the credibility of Kala Afghana? I've been posting to Tapoban forums for years and have friends who are associated with the Tapoban Singhs. They most certainly are NOT Sant Mat Radhasoami. They are Gurmat. By what desperate stretch of logic would dare make so unbelievable a slander against the Tapoban Singhs? To bolster your arguments in favor of Kala Afghana the apostate?

Has rational debate has been replaced by hysteria? Now I am a KA supporter? Tapoban is the voice box for a sect of Sikhs. It does not represent Sikhism. I have read that forum for years and seen the way differing viewpoints have been viciously attacked and also people banned from that forum.

If they are Gurmat then do they support the Rehit Maryada in its entirety as prescribed by the SGPC?

I am entitled to my viewpoint as are you. In my eyes they support a certain sect of Sikhism, and therefore Sant Mat.

For anyone who has any doubt whatsoever, Tapoban is 100% Gurmat Gursikhi and is affiliated with the Panthic Jatha Akhand Kirtani Jatha (AKJ). Here is a link to their website as evidence they have zero affiliation with Sant Mat. It is preposterous even to allege. Why do you persist in making ugly rumors about Panthically affiliated groups such as Panthic Weekly, Tapoban, Damdami Taksal and AKJ? You have zero supportive evidence, and for a self-claimed historian, that looks pretty sad. You harm your own credibility this way veer ji. Why don't you stop.


AKJ follows personalities and Sants, That is no different from Sant Mat. Panthic Weekly is a rumour mongering rag that is no better than the National Enquirer, or the Sun Newspaper (in the UK). They create rumours and attack people persoanly.

Credibility? I am not concerned with such trivia. I am entitled to my view as are you, and from what I have read at Tapoban and such sites it does no favours to Sikhism.
 

Randip Singh

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May 25, 2005
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Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

A lot of people don't really understand the complex issues involving the manipulation of Sikh faith and identity by the government of India. Sangat piare jio please watch the videos are they will provide a better perspective for understanding people like Kala Afghana, sant Nirankaris and the dissemination campaign by Indian intelligence agencies on Sikh religious teaching to divide Sikhs. Let's not forget the larger picture at stake here in all these delicate issues in the Panth today.

Which Narankari's are you refereing to?

I am sure you are aware there is a difference between Uslee and Naquli Narankari's? You are aware that the uslee Narankari's are responsible for Sikhism and much of its present day form?
 
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