Guru And God No Difference

[AmbarDhara]

Many Sikhs respect Bhai Gurdas as a Sant Atma. He claims that he is reay to be cut into four pieces for the person who accepts Guru and God as one.

Gurbani refes to this truth many times in very clear words:

'Brahmgyani aap parmesar'


So if one still believes that this is not true, then it is direct indication that this person is questioning Guru Ji's WORDS. And to my understanding this thread is under Gurmat Vichar section not under Gurbani Debate section. The debate section of this thread should be posted in Interfaith or some other debate section. This place doesn't seem to be the right place for this. Keep only those parts where it is Gurbani Vichar and move the rest to debate section.

I hope moderators understand what I mean.

thankyou.

OK this the one my son sent me( Bhai Gurdas Ji is talking about God and Guru):

hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY gur prmySr eyko jwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY dUjw Bwau n AwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Aaugx kIqy gux prvwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY mMdw iksY n AwK vKwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Awp Tgwey lokW BwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY praupkwr krY rMg mwxY]
lau bwlI drgwh ivc mwx inmwxwmwx inmwxY]
gur pUrw gur Sbd is\wxY ]õ]

I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who does not allow the sense of duality to enter in him.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who understands the evil done to him as good one.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who never speaks ill of anyone.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who is ready to suffer loss for the sake of others.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who enjoys doing altruistic activities.
Such a humble person understanding the Word of Guru, himself becomes the perfect Guru.


humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness

Dhan Dhan Sache Paatshah, Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahibaan ANG 1142

paarabreham gur naahee bhaedh ||4||11||24||
There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||




I REQUEST ALL THOSE WHO ARE IN OPPOSITION FOR THE TRUTH STATED ABOVE IN VERY CLEAR WORDS BY GURUS:


PLEASE READ ALL OF GURU GRANTH SAHIB, YOU WILL FIND THIS TRUTH WRITTEN MULTIPLE TIMES.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Many Sikhs respect Bhai Gurdas as a Sant Atma. He claims that he is reay to be cut into four pieces for the person who accepts Guru and God as one.

Gurbani refes to this truth many times in very clear words:

'Brahmgyani aap parmesar'


So if one still believes that this is not true, then it is direct indication that this person is questioning Guru Ji's WORDS. And to my understanding this thread is under Gurmat Vichar section not under Gurbani Debate section. The debate section of this thread should be posted in Interfaith or some other debate section. This place doesn't seem to be the right place for this. Keep only those parts where it is Gurbani Vichar and move the rest to debate section.

I hope moderators understand what I mean.

thankyou.









Dhan Dhan Sache Paatshah, Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahibaan ANG 1142

paarabreham gur naahee bhaedh ||4||11||24||
There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||




I REQUEST ALL THOSE WHO ARE IN OPPOSITION FOR THE TRUTH STATED ABOVE IN VERY CLEAR WORDS BY GURUS:


PLEASE READ ALL OF GURU GRANTH SAHIB, YOU WILL FIND THIS TRUTH WRITTEN MULTIPLE TIMES.

NAH! Bhai Gurdas Ji ain't cool for this discussion, we're talking about SGGS. What Bhai Gurdas JI thinks doesn't matter, in fact he calls Guru Gobind Singh JI > Gobind Singh, so... Anyway if you're going to use other writings (notice I didn't says Bani) then Guru Gobind Singh, in Dasam Granth CLEARLY tells us to not CALL him parmesar. Its that paragraph (not shabad):
main hoon param purakh ko dasa, dekhan ayo jagat tamasa.
Later on he says,
jo hum ko parmesar uchar hain, eh sabh narak kund main par hain... etc.
I am writing this from head so might not be 100% exact!
First line shows he's a servant of God. Then he says If you call him (Guru Gobind SIngh) God then you'll be sent to hell.

So this tells us that either the first nine Gurus were GOD!!
OR
None of them were, as we "hear" from Guru GObind Singh himself, saying that he isn't!

 

[AmbarDhara]

I dont believe in Dasam Granth- Guru Gobind Singh Ji never ever claimed Himself to be the composer of any Granth like this. He Gave Gurgaddi to SGGS Ji.

And Every Word of SGGS JI is GURU.

Guru says:

'Brahmgyani aap parmesar'
Is Guru Nanak not a Brahmgyani?

Guru says:

'Guru parmesar eko jaan'
Is Guru Nanak not Guru?

Guru says:

'Guru parmesar nahi bhed'
'Guru Parmesar ek hai sabh mein rahya samaei'
'guru paarbarahm parmaysar aap'

Is Guru Nanak not Guru?


And Bhai Gurdas says exactly what SGGS Ji says.

There are lot of controversies about this Dasam Granth of yours. Mostly people dont believe this to be Guru Gobind Singh Ji's composition. I haven't read it, and have no desire to read it either, especially after you telling me that it says exactly opposite to what SGGS Ji says. Thanks a lot for saving my time.

 

[kds1980]

I dont believe in Dasam Granth- Guru Gobind Singh Ji never ever claimed Himself to be the composer of any Granth like this. He Gave Gurgaddi to SGGS Ji.

There are shabads in Dasam granth which looks original writing of Guru gobind singh ji

 

[AmbarDhara]

Yes kds, but how can you tell it is truly His composition. Looking like and being are two seperate things.

All that glitters is not gold.




Following is a posting from another thread that I like. This is about belief. I agree Surinder. Whatever Guru says 'IS' right. Questioning and doubting Guru is the biggest kurehat.

This is a matter of belief, the deeper the belief for 'the existance of God' develops, the duality and the doubts get cleared and vanish one after another.


One like it or not, one has to believe in one thing- GURU IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

If one doesn't understand one thing today, but Guru is telling it time and again, IT GOT TO BE TRUE, ONE NEED TO LEARN TO SURRENDER IN FRONT OF GURU'S WORD.


without surrender there is no sipiritual progress.


AS DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU NANAK DEV JI SACHE PAATSHAH DE BACHAN ON PAGE # 1:

HUKAM RAJAI CHALAN NANAK LIKHYAA NAAL....................


the wall of koor/haner/andhkaar/falsehood is going to break only if you believe in Guru's word, that's the begining, and then Guru takes over and there is no end of Guru's Grace afterwords.......................

With God's grace we meet our guru, form of Guru doesnt matter, as Guru is not limited to a form. GURU CAN ONLY BE THAT WHO IS ALREADY MERGED WITH THE SAT. and Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is all Bani of Sikh Gurus, Bhagats and Saints, who are merged with Sat, so their bani is also Sat/Nirankaar/Guru/Satguru/God.

Do vichaar on just the first panna of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru granth Sahib Ji, and truthfully follow each and every line written there, all your doubts will eventually vanish with Waheguru's Grace, you will be able to understand all of Gurbani without doudts hovering over your mind, all ifs and buts will disapear.......... guru bhala kare

humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness

Guru is the only one who can resolve all the doubts.

 

[kds1980]

Yes but how can you tell it is truly His composition. Looking like and being are two seperate things.

All that glitters is not gold.

Because those shabads are in in line of gurmat.I don't think we should raise doubt on those shabads which are according to gurmat.

 

[AmbarDhara]

Yes kds. I believe that any word that is in line of Gurmat is right. Doesn't matter who's composition it is/was or who is singing it.


somthing on SELF:

Beyond The Physical

We Are Beings Of Light

We are all beings of light. Put another way, we are spiritual beings having a human experience. As children, most of us know this, but other human beings who have forgotten what they really are and who cannot help us to know ourselves train us to forget. As a result, we are led to believe that magic is not real, that our invisible playmates do not really exist, and that we are limited beings with only one earthly life to live. There is enormous pressure to conform to this concept of ourselves and so we lose touch with our full potential, forgetting that we are beings of light.

At this time, many of us are reawakening to the truth of who we are, because we are living amidst such large-scale changes in the world. We need to access this light in order to not only survive but thrive as we shift into a new order of consciousness. As the changes around us proceed in rapid progression, we will want to be able to trust our own ability to sense what is happening and how we can best respond. We are no longer living in a predictable world in which we can trust external authority figures and prior ideas about reality to guide us. We need to be able to access the information that will help us navigate these uncertain waters, and the ultimate authority resides in our awareness of ourselves as beings of light.

It is through our connection to this light that we know things beyond what the visible world can tell us, and we see things beyond what the physical world reveals. In order to access this wisdom, we can simply allow ourselves to remember that we are not limited, as we have been taught. In fact, we are filled with divine grace and power that is ours for the asking. A daily practice of tuning into this vast potential, conversing with it, and offering ourselves up to it opens the door through which we can reclaim our true identity, taking ownership of the calling that the time has come to create bliss on earth.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us the treasure SGGS Ji that does remind us about our true self.



"Recognize yourself, 0 mind! You are the light manifest. Rejoice in Guru's instruction that God is always with (in) you. If you recognize your Self, you shall know the Lord and shall get the knowledge of life and death" (GG, 441).


joiq rUip hir Awip gurU nwnku khwXau ] (1408-10)
jot roop har aap guroo naanak kahaa-ya-o.
The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.


Every word of SGGS JI is Guru
Bani nirankaar hai.

so this bani has said so many times that Guru is Nirankaar Himself. SO IT IS.

 

[Sardara123]

BYrau mhlw 5 ]
siqguru myrw bymuhqwju ]
siqgur myry scw swju ]
siqguru myrw sBs kw dwqw ]
siqguru myrw purKu ibDwqw ]1]
gur jYsw nwhI ko dyv ]
ijsu msqik Bwgu su lwgw syv ]1] rhwau ]
siqguru myrw srb pRiqpwlY ]
siqguru myrw mwir jIvwlY ]
siqgur myry kI vifAweI ] pRgtu BeI hY sBnI QweI ]2]
siqguru myrw qwxu inqwxu ]
siqguru myrw Gir dIbwxu ]
siqgur kY hau sd bil jwieAw ]
pRgtu mwrgu ijin kir idKlwieAw ]3]
ijin guru syivAw iqsu Bau n ibAwpY ]
ijin guru syivAw iqsu duKu n sMqwpY ]
nwnk soDy isMimRiq byd ]
pwrbRhm gur nwhI Byd ]4]11]24]





Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:
My True Guru is totally independent.
My True Guru is adorned with Truth.
My True Guru is the Giver of all.
My True Guru is the Primal Creator Lord, the Architect of Destiny. ||1||
There is no deity equal to the Guru.
Whoever has good destiny inscribed on his forehead, applies himself to seva - selfless service. ||1||Pause||
My True Guru is the Sustainer and Cherisher of all.
My True Guru kills and revives.
The glorious greatness of my True Guru has become manifest everywhere. ||2||
My True Guru is the power of the powerless.
My True Guru is my home and court.
I am forever a sacrifice to the True Guru.
He has shown me the path. ||3||
One who serves the Guru is not afflicted with fear.
One who serves the Guru does not suffer in pain.
Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas.
There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||

 

[BhagatSingh]

BYrau mhlw 5 ]
siqguru myrw bymuhqwju ]
siqgur myry scw swju ]
siqguru myrw sBs kw dwqw ]
siqguru myrw purKu ibDwqw ]1]
gur jYsw nwhI ko dyv ]
ijsu msqik Bwgu su lwgw syv ]1] rhwau ]
siqguru myrw srb pRiqpwlY ]
siqguru myrw mwir jIvwlY ]
siqgur myry kI vifAweI ] pRgtu BeI hY sBnI QweI ]2]
siqguru myrw qwxu inqwxu ]
siqguru myrw Gir dIbwxu ]
siqgur kY hau sd bil jwieAw ]
pRgtu mwrgu ijin kir idKlwieAw ]3]
ijin guru syivAw iqsu Bau n ibAwpY ]
ijin guru syivAw iqsu duKu n sMqwpY ]
nwnk soDy isMimRiq byd ]
pwrbRhm gur nwhI Byd ]4]11]24]





Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:
My True Guru is totally independent.
My True Guru is adorned with Truth.
My True Guru is the Giver of all.
My True Guru is the Primal Creator Lord, the Architect of Destiny. ||1||
There is no deity equal to the Guru.
Whoever has good destiny inscribed on his forehead, applies himself to seva - selfless service. ||1||Pause||
My True Guru is the Sustainer and Cherisher of all.
My True Guru kills and revives.
The glorious greatness of my True Guru has become manifest everywhere. ||2||
My True Guru is the power of the powerless.
My True Guru is my home and court.
I am forever a sacrifice to the True Guru.
He has shown me the path. ||3||
One who serves the Guru is not afflicted with fear.
One who serves the Guru does not suffer in pain.
Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas.
There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||

How do you know the word Guru there is not used to refer to GOD, like the word Ram or Hari? :hmm:

 

[Archived_Member1]

How do you know the word Guru there is not used to refer to GOD, like the word Ram or Hari? :hmm:

if Guru is God, doesn't it refer to both?

 

[Astroboy]

It has repeatedly been ingrained in us that the physical is not the guru. Guru Granth Sahib's physical pages are not the guru.

 

[BhagatSingh]

if Guru is God, doesn't it refer to both?

Nope, it like saying it is wet outside so it MUST be raining. :rofl!!:
IT could be wet for different reasons but IF it is raining then it MUST be wet outside. You see how those things don't work backwards.
Same sort of thing here.

 

[Sardara123]

siq bcn swDU aupdys ]
siq qy jn jw kY irdY pRvys ]
siq inriq bUJY jy koie ]
nwmu jpq qw kI giq hoie ]
Awip siq kIAw sBu siq ]
Awpy jwnY ApnI imiq giq ]
ijs kI isRsit su krxYhwru ]
Avr n bUiJ krq bIcwru ]
krqy kI imiq n jwnY kIAw ]
nwnk jo iqsu BwvY so vrqIAw ]7]


True are the Teachings, and the Instructions of the Holy.
True are those into whose hearts He enters.
One who knows and loves the Truth
chanting the Naam, he obtains salvation.
He Himself is True, and all that He has made is true.
He Himself knows His own state and condition.
He is the Creator Lord of His world.
No one else understands Him, although they may try.
The created cannot know the extent of the Creator.
O Nanak, whatever pleases Him comes to pass. ||7||

 

[AmbarDhara]

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar​

SGGS JI​

ANG 442​

SATGURU PRASAAD​

ratnaa ratan padaarath baho saagar bhari-aa raam.
The great ocean is full of the treasures of jewels upon jewels.​

banee gurbaanee laagay tinH hath charhi-aa raam.
Those who are committed to the Word of the Guru's Bani, see them come into their hands.​

gurbaanee laagay tinH hath charhi-aa nirmolak ratan apaaraa.
This priceless, incomparable jewel comes into the hands of those who are committed to the Word of the Guru's Bani.​

har har naam atolak paa-i-aa tayree bhagat bharay bhandaaraa.
They obtain the immeasurable Name of the Lord, Har, Har; their treasure is overflowing with devotional worship.​

samund virol sareer ham daykhi-aa ik vasat anoop dikhaa-ee.
I have churned the ocean of the body, and I have seen the incomparable thing come into view.​

gur govind govind guroo hai naanak bhayd na bhaa-ee. ||4||1||8||
The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8||​

Punjabi translation of the last line from gurugranthdarpan site(Professor Sahib Singh):

hy BweI! gurU dI ikrpw nwl jdoN mYN Awpxy srIr-smuMdr ƒ pVqwl ky vyiKAw qW gurU ny mYƒ (srIr dy AMdr v`sdw hI prmwqmw dw nwm-rUp) sohxw kImqI pdwrQ ivKw id`qw [ hy nwnk! (AwK—) hy BweI! gurU prmwqmw hY prmwqmw gurU hY, dohW ivc koeI &rk nhIN hY [4[1[8[

charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​

Jasleen Ji,

Thanks a lot for providing the links for Gurbani sites. I noticed it today. Somehow I couldn't catch your post earlier.

Once again, Thanks a lot.

 

[carolineislands]

I don't understand how God is only one, no other but God... monotheism... and yet God and Guru are one. That sounds like Jesus as God in Christianity. Who is the Guru in this instance? How is the Guru one with God if God is only one?

 

[kds1980]

Caroline ji

As a newcomer I advise you to please not to enter this debate.Here some knowledgable persons are doing discussion whether Guru and god are one or not.

 

[Astroboy]

Caroline Ji,

This is a mature question. I would like to see how much sense can be derived from the views of others. In my opinion, True Guru is God - in whose lap we play our entire lives.

SGGS points in the direction one needs to reach before a clear understanding can be grasped about reality.

One's feeling of something missing in one's life - is the driving force to seek. Most people will seek True Guru from the outside and only meet with untold obstacles. True Guru is the Bani - "Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani, Vich Bani Amrit Saray, Bani Kahay Sewak Jann Manay, Partakh Guru Nistaray".

Where does one find Bani ?

How can we find something when we don't know where it is or what it feels like ?

"Anhad Bani Gur Shabad Janni,
Har Naam Har Ras Bhogo,
Kahay Nanak Prabh Aap Miliya,
Karan Kaaran Jogo"

Anhad Bani can be heard within one's self. Whatever you hear with your physical ears is a duplicate, xerox copy only.

More Later.

 

[spnadmin]

Caroline ji

I don't understand how God is only one, no other but God... monotheism... and yet God and Guru are one. That sounds like Jesus as God in Christianity. Who is the Guru in this instance? How is the Guru one with God if God is only one?

You are reading this thread with fresh eyes and are asking an important question. In the end it is the only question worth asking.

Who is God?

You find the answer in Sikhism by reading the Bani called Jaap Sahib. A lot to think about there. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib

 

[AmbarDhara]

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar​

SGGS JI​

ANG 968​

SATGURU PRASAAD​

raamkalee kee vaar raa-ay balvand tathaa satai doom aakhee

Vaar Of Raamkalee, Uttered By Satta And Balwand The Drummer:​

Dhan Dhan raamdaas gur jin siri-aa tinai savaari-aa.

Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas; He who created You, has also exalted You. ​

pooree ho-ee karaamaat aap sirjanhaarai Dhaari-aa.

Perfect is Your miracle; the Creator Lord Himself has installed You on the throne. ​

sikhee atai sangtee paarbarahm kar namaskaari-aa.

The Sikhs and all the Congregation recognize You as the Supreme Lord God, and bow down to You. ​

atal athaahu atol too tayraa ant na paaraavaari-aa.

You are unchanging, unfathomable and immeasurable; You have no end or limitation. ​

jinHee tooN sayvi-aa bhaa-o kar say tuDh paar utaari-aa.

Those who serve You with love - You carry them across. ​

lab lobh kaam kroDh moh maar kadhay tuDh saparvaari-aa.

Greed, envy, sexual desire, anger and emotional attachment - You have beaten them and driven them out. ​

Dhan so tayraa thaan hai sach tayraa paiskaari-aa.

Blessed is Your place, and True is Your magnificent glory. ​

naanak too lahnaa toohai gur amar too veechaari-aa.

You are Nanak, You are Angad, and You are Amar Daas; so do I recognize You. ​

gur dithaa taaN man saaDhaari-aa. ||7||

When I saw the Guru, then my mind was comforted and consoled. ||7|| ​

Translation of the same shabad from another source:

DHAN DHAN RAM DAS GUR
(SHABD FROM SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB)

Dhan dhan ram das gur jin syreaa tinai savaari-aa
Pooree ho-ee karaamaat aap sirjanhaarai dhaari-aa
Sikhee atai sangatee paarbrahm kar namaskaari-aa
Atal athaaho atol too(n) tayraa ant na paaraavaari-aa
Jinee too(n) sayvee-aa bhaa-o kar say tudh paar utaari-aa
Lab lobh kaam kridh moho maar kadhay tudh saparvaari-aa
Dhan so tayraa thaan hai sach tayraa paiskaari-aa
Naanaak too(n) lehnaa too(n) hai gur amar too(n) veechaari-aa
Gur dithaa taa(n) man saadhaari-aa

Praise unto Ram Das the Guru, the one who created you, established you.
You are such a miracle! The Creator has installed you on a throne.
Your Sikhs & all conscious people bow to you because you manifest God.
You are unchanging, unfathomable, immeasurable. Your limit cannot be perceived.
Those who serve you with love are carried across the sea of existence.
The 5 obstacles (greed, attachment, lust, anger, ego) cannot exist where you are.
The realm that you rule is the true place. True is your glory.
You are Nanak. Angad and Amar Das the Guru.
Oh, when I recognized you, my soul was completed!

charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​

 

[BhagatSingh]

Caroline ji



You are reading this thread with fresh eyes and are asking an important question. In the end it is the only question worth asking.

Who is God?

You find the answer in Sikhism by reading the Bani called Jaap Sahib. A lot to think about there. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib

Bani called Jaap Sahib?
Is this a new kind of bani or something?? i think you mean Jap Ji Sahib, let's stick to Guru Granth Sahib people, no quoting/mentioning Bhai Gurdas or the so called Dasam Granth!