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Guru Arjan As Incarnation Of Waheguru?

Aug 28, 2010
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It is equally important to get the understanding from Gurbaani that the word GuRU
is the reference for the BODY thru which Baani is being revealed.
From above point of view Baani is GuR not GuRU as we understand.
So GuRU and GuR both are important in different context in Gurbaani.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Gyani ji,
I think the body (any body) is pretty darn important if it gets you to Gurmat/Gurbani. ;)

Not in the "way" deh is important in the "Avtaar"..sant..baba ji..mahapurash thingy....like drinking water used to wash the baba jis feet..wash his kachera etc...eat a "mahapurash's" .. Left overs..jhootha food...or just look..darshan...mehr bharee nazar can give make a infertile bride fertile..any guarantee a SON...win the court case..make your business prsoper etc...NO WAY.

THAT way of Human deh is NOT recognosed/importnat in Gurbani.

I think what you mean is that the HUMAN BODY....ghar of the Akal Purakh (Harmandar)...is VITAL to emancipation fo the Soul...with that concept i agree 110%. Without human birth there is no possibility of merger with the Creator....this is Gurbani's assertion and I beleive it.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Human Birth is not the necessary condition for achieving "Salvation".Salvation is possible in any form other than Human This can be understood from Gurbaani where we find an Elephant got Salvation thru the Simran of RAAmu.
However Human form is very sinificant for knowing the Creator which is not possible in any other form.
Salvation is possible thru Nadari of The Creator only.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Adi Nanaki

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I agree with you for the most part, except in our ways to relate to the Gurus. I also experience them as separate entities, as well as all being contained in SGGS, by breathing their names, or by thinking of one Guru, or all of the Gurus at once, and breathing, "You are me, I am you. I am you, you are me." -- Tohi mohi, mohi, Tohi." Doing so gives a profound, sublime sense of their presence, unexpectedly, by Gurus Grace.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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There is a Quote from Gurbaani as

"HARi Kaa Sewaku So HARi Jehaa..Bhed Naa Jannahu Mannas Dehaa
Jeeu Lal Tarang Uthahi Bahu Bhatee Firi Salale Salal Samaayedaa"
pp1076SGGS
From above we can see the Significance of Human Dehaa with reference to
Creator HARi
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

spnadmin

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"Human Deh" is a horse, a beast of burden, which takes the whip of Divine love, and wears the saddle of meditation to reach the ultimate destination. My deh, your deh, deh of Guru Arjan Dev ji .... a horse that crosses the terrifying world ocean, and with Guru's grace, the rider realizes the Sat. Whether we call Guru Arjan Dev an avatar, an incarnation, these are labels, sometimes very misleading labels. Too much can be made of the wrong aspect of "body and soul."


Duality is over come when a human life is blessed with God's love, and does some work of its own too:
Imbued with God's love, the God's lover, night and day, sings God's praise and becomes like. God.


The body which takes the form of human life is a fine horse like "fine gold." With the grace of the Guru becomes imbued with the color of the poppy, red, the color of divine love. That body/horse is beautiful only when it is "bedecked" with the name of Hari.
  • That body/mare was created to wear the saddle of meditation on the Lord's name.
    The good Lord's meditation is the saddle, which I put on the body mare.
  • Understanding and love, gian and prem, take the place of the bridle and whip.
    Applying the whip of the Lord's love to his body, the holy man/gurmukh conquers his mind and wins the battle
  • That body/mare needs to hear the divine music uttered by the Guru...in other words ...the horse must heed the horse-whisperer to be imbued with God's love.
    Hearing with thine, ears, the hymns, uttered by the Guru, imbue thou, thy body steed, with God's love.
  • That body/mare attains merit by living a virtuous life.
    By which the Lord God is meditated upon, auspicious and praise-worthy is that body mare. It is obtained through the accumulated past good actions.
  • That body/mare races through life in but a flash in time, a fleeting horse, by design. We ride her to supreme bliss through meditation (the saddle).
    The fleeting body mare has been created by my Lord Master.
  • That body/mare is the beast of burden, who takes us to our final destination
    Mounting the body mare, the mortal crosses the arduous world ocean and by Guru's grace, meets with God, the embodiment of supreme bliss.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
There is but One God. By True Guru's grace, He is obtained.

ਦੇਹ ਤੇਜਣਿ ਜੀ ਰਾਮਿ ਉਪਾਈਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
Blessed is the human life, which is attained through virtue.

ਮਾਣਸ ਜਨਮੁ ਵਡ ਪੁੰਨੇ ਪਾਇਆ ਦੇਹ ਸੁ ਕੰਚਨ ਚੰਗੜੀਆ ॥
Māṇas janam vad punne pā▫i▫ā ḏeh so kancẖan cẖangṛī▫ā.
The human life obtained by supreme merit and the said body is like the fine gold.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਚਲੂਲਾ ਪਾਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਵ ਰੰਗੜੀਆ ॥
Gurmukẖ rang cẖalūlā pāvai har har har nav rangṛī▫ā.
By Guru's grace the body attains the poppy flower like colour, and is imbued in the new colour of Lords God's Name.

ਏਹ ਦੇਹ ਸੁ ਬਾਂਕੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਪੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹਾਵੀਆ ॥
Ėh ḏeh so bāʼnkī jiṯ har jāpī har har nām suhāvī▫ā.
Very beauteous is this body, which dwells on God and with the Lord God's Name, it is bedecked.

ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਈ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਖਾਈ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮਿ ਉਪਾਈਆ ॥੧॥
vadbẖāgī pā▫ī nām sakẖā▫ī jan Nānak rām upā▫ī▫ā. ||1||
Through the greatest good fortune, this body is obtained. The Lord's Name is its succourer and the Lord has created it, O slave Nanak.

ਦੇਹ ਪਾਵਉ ਜੀਨੁ ਬੁਝਿ ਚੰਗਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
Ḏeh pāva▫o jīn bujẖ cẖanga rām.
The good Lord's meditation is the saddle, which I put on the body mare.

ਚੜਿ ਲੰਘਾ ਜੀ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
Cẖaṛ langẖā jī bikẖam bẖu▫i▫angā rām.
Riding this body mare, I cross the arduous world ocean.

ਬਿਖਮੁ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਾ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਏ ॥
Bikẖam bẖu▫i▫angā anaṯ ṯarangā gurmukẖ pār langẖā▫e.
The difficult ocean has countless waves and the Supreme Guru, ferries the man across.

ਹਰਿ ਬੋਹਿਥਿ ਚੜਿ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਲੰਘੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਤਰਾਏ ॥
Har bohith cẖaṛ vadbẖāgī langẖai gur kẖevat sabaḏ ṯarā▫e.
Embarking on the Lord's ship, the fortunate ones cross over the with his hymns, Guru's the boatman, ferries across the mortals.

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੀ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥
An▫ḏin har rang har guṇ gāvai har rangī har rangā.
Imbued with God's love, the God's lover, night and day, sings God's praise and becomes like. God.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਦੁ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
Jan Nānak nirbāṇ paḏ pā▫i▫ā har uṯam har paḏ cẖanga. ||2||
The servant, O Nanak, has attained the state of emancipation, the Lord's commendable and sublime Divine state.

ਕੜੀਆਲੁ ਮੁਖੇ ਗੁਰਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
Kaṛī▫āl mukẖe gur gi▫ān driṛ▫ā▫i▫ā rām.
In place of the bridle in the mouth, the Guru has implanted gnosis/understanding within me.

ਤਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਚਾਬਕੁ ਲਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
Ŧan parem har cẖābak lā▫i▫ā rām.
He has applied the whip of God's love to my body.

ਤਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਇ ਚਾਬਕੁ ਮਨੁ ਜਿਣੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੀਤਿਆ ॥
Ŧan parem har har lā▫e cẖābak man jiṇai gurmukẖ jīṯi▫ā.
Applying the whip of the Lord's love to his body, the holy man/gurmukh conquers his mind and wins the battle.

ਅਘੜੋ ਘੜਾਵੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਅਪਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਤਿਆ ॥
Agẖ▫ṛo gẖaṛāvai sabaḏ pāvai api▫o har ras pīṯi▫ā.
He trains his untrained mind with the Divine word and drinks in the animating God's Nectar

ਸੁਣਿ ਸ੍ਰਵਣ ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੜਾਇਆ ॥
Suṇ sarvaṇ baṇī gur vakẖāṇī har rang ṯurī cẖaṛā▫i▫ā.
Hearing with thine, ears, the hymns, uttered by the Guru, imbue thou, thy body steed, with God's love.

ਮਹਾ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਪੰਥੁ ਬਿਖੜਾ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਇਆ ॥੩॥
Mahā mārag panth bikẖ▫ṛā jan Nānak pār langẖā▫i▫ā. ||3||
Servant Nanak has traversed across the path, the very arduous path of death.

ਘੋੜੀ ਤੇਜਣਿ ਦੇਹ ਰਾਮਿ ਉਪਾਈਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
Gẖoṛī ṯejaṇ ḏeh rām upā▫ī▫ā rām.
The fleeting body mare has been created by my Lord Master.

ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਸਾ ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਤੁਖਾਈਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
Jiṯ har parabẖ jāpai sā ḏẖan ḏẖan ṯukẖā▫ī▫ā rām.
Blessed! blessed is the body mare, by which the Lord God is meditated upon.

ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਸਾ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਾਬਾਸੈ ਧੁਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਜੁੜੰਦਾ ॥
Jiṯ har parabẖ jāpai sā ḏẖan sābāsai ḏẖur pā▫i▫ā kiraṯ juṛanḏā.
By which the Lord God is meditated upon, auspicious and praise-worthy is that body mare. It is obtained through the accumulated past good actions.

ਚੜਿ ਦੇਹੜਿ ਘੋੜੀ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਲਘਾਏ ਮਿਲੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦਾ ॥
Cẖaṛ ḏehaṛ gẖoṛī bikẖam lagẖā▫e mil gurmukẖ parmānanḏā.
Mounting the body mare, the mortal crosses the arduous world ocean and by Guru's grace, meets with God, the embodiment of supreme bliss.

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਪੂਰੈ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਜੰਞ ਆਈ ॥
Har har kāj racẖā▫i▫ā pūrai mil sanṯ janā jañ ā▫ī.
The Perfect Lord Master has arranged the wedding. Meeting together, the pious persons have come as a marriage party.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਵਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮੰਗਲੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਵਾਧਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥੫॥
Jan Nānak har var pā▫i▫ā mangal mil sanṯ janā vāḏẖā▫ī. ||4||1||5||
The serf Nanak, has obtained God as his spouse, Meeting together, the saints sing the song of joy and congratulate him.

Ang 575, Guru Ram Das

The metaphor of a horse, very often a mare, a female horse, is used over and over. The horse carries her rider, as the body carries the soul. The metaphor is used to stress that the purpose of this body is to do work, to live a life of virtuous action and to mediate on God's name, in order to carry the burden of the soul to its ultimate destination. The path of this body/horse is an arduous journey to death. No glamorous, intensely theosophical script is played out in the shabad. The body is a horse, not an avatar of a celestial divinity. Guru Arjan Dev knew that when he sat on the hotplate. When he made his own arduous journey. Were he an avatar in the Vedic way, we would be talking instead of his ingenious and speedy escape, not his martyrdom. He did instead what he had to do.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Bagga Ji,
imho that tuk is declaring that we should be.."seeing" HIM in his Bhagats...as we "see" the WAVES..as the WATER....
I dont agree that this is saying that the Human Deh is WORSHIPPABLE as in the AVTAAR concept. The GURU SAHIBAANS DID NOT JOIN US to their DEHs.....they joined us to the SHABAD..and that is the reason for ENDING the 10 Human Guru lineage and passing Gurgadee of nanak to SGGS.
Apologies if misunderstood in any way.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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GYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
I think my message is being misconstrued in the context of the word Avtaar.I have already made the possible meaning of the word Avtaar in my previous messages.The meaning is with reference to the word GuRu in the Shabad. Since the word GuRu is reffering to JOTi.Certainly the JOTi can never take avtaar in the sense of vedic concept of Avtaar..
I think this makes my point clear.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

spnadmin

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prakash s. bagga ji

No, I am more in wonder. Are you saying then that Gurus were avatars of the same jyoti? Or that having the same jyoti made them avatars of one and the same GuRu? If in human form each of the 10 Gurus and the 11th Sri Guru Granth Sahib carry the same jyoti, why is it even necessary to use the word avatar? Or, put another way, what other sense but the Vedic sense of avatar is there? Not science fiction, I do not think.
 
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Spnadmin ji,
You just want to know why it is necessar to use the word Avtaar This thread is related to getting the some appropriate meaning to this only.
I have already clarified that I consider the word meaning as a reference for a personshowing a trait or typical characterto a marked degree {in this case it is the Creator}.Nowhere I have ever said that the Avtaar has been used in Vedic sense this is your assumption.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 
Aug 28, 2010
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GYANI Jarnail Singh Ji,
I would like to have your views for a Quote from Gurbaani.

"Dhanu Dhanu Pitaa Dhanu Dhanu Kulu Dhanh Dhanu Su Jananee Jini GuRU Janniyaa Maaye" pp310 SGGS

Here the word is GuRU not GuRu {I am sure you understand the difference in the reference meanings of GuRU and GuRu.

The quote clearly tells about the birth of GuRU.
I think if we can understand this the actual meaning of the word Avtaar would be more clarified.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

BhagatSingh

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lol @ all the commotion (is it commotion?)

Prakash Singh ji,
Going back to the definition of Avtars you posted...
1.....Embodiment in flesh esp Human

i.e Formless (creator) taking Form (creation)


2....A person showing a trait or typical character to a marked degree

i.e. Form (creation) showing lots of Formlessness (creator)

Also to clarify (I hope) that the Creator is the Formless + Form.

So now what is the difference between the two definitions?

And what is this 'Vedic concept of Avtars' you all speak of?
 

Ambarsaria

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There is specific quote from Gurbaani which is as under

"Meree Meree Dhari Bandhani Bandheya
Naraki Suragi Avtaar Mayaa Dhandiyaa" pp761 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

We should therefore understand the reference meaning of the word Avtaar in view of above message.

Prakash.S.Bagga
Prakash.S.Bagga ji I continue to be amazed that you do not quote complete Shabads. Isn't this part of spn TOS. Regardless, I tried to look for 761 in the following versus what your post says and could not find your transcribed tuks,

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=761&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0

The difficulty is you throw a line here and a line there with sprinkling of Gur, GuRu, GuRU, etc., without describing what differences you are trying to illustrate.

Can you please help fellow spners by quoting complete and properly and describe words like Gur, GuRu, GuRU, etc., you repeatedly like using and keep emphasizing their importance without describing what are you driving at.

Please help others learn by following spn TOS and decribing the words identified above. The phoenetic differences through your use of capital "U" or small "u" need to be clearly stated when you use these. Your phonetics is not the same as everyone trained in English from various teachers and hence it is possible confusion will arise and it is definitely the case for me.

So again please help your fellow spners if you can.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Ambarsaria

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GYANI Jarnail Singh Ji,
I would like to have your views for a Quote from Gurbaani.

"Dhanu Dhanu Pitaa Dhanu Dhanu Kulu Dhanh Dhanu Su Jananee Jini GuRU Janniyaa Maaye" pp310 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Here the word is GuRU not GuRu {I am sure you understand the difference in the reference meanings of GuRU and GuRu.

The quote clearly tells about the birth of GuRU.
I think if we can understand this the actual meaning of the word Avtaar would be more clarified.
Prakash.S.Bagga
Prakash.s.bagga ji, I am ashamed to note that your tuk references are so out of context and absolutely prove nothing if not mislead. I copy the shabad that you refer to below,
ਮਃ
मः ४ ॥
Mėhlā 4.
Fourth Mehl:

ਸਾ ਧਰਤੀ ਭਈ ਹਰੀਆਵਲੀ ਜਿਥੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬੈਠਾ ਆਇ
सा धरती भई हरीआवली जिथै मेरा सतिगुरु बैठा आइ ॥
Sā ḏẖarṯī bẖa▫ī harī▫āvalī jithai merā saṯgur baiṯẖā ā▫e.
That land, where my True Guru comes and sits, becomes green and fertile.

ਸੇ ਜੰਤ ਭਏ ਹਰੀਆਵਲੇ ਜਿਨੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਜਾਇ
से जंत भए हरीआवले जिनी मेरा सतिगुरु देखिआ जाइ ॥
Se janṯ bẖa▫e harī▫āvle jinī merā saṯgur ḏekẖi▫ā jā▫e.
Those beings who go and behold my True Guru are rejuvenated.

ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਕੁਲੁ ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸੁ ਜਨਨੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਣਿਆ ਮਾਇ
धनु धंनु पिता धनु धंनु कुलु धनु धनु सु जननी जिनि गुरू जणिआ माइ ॥
Ḏẖan ḏẖan piṯā ḏẖan ḏẖan kul ḏẖan ḏẖan so jannī jin gurū jaṇi▫ā mā▫e.
Blessed, blessed is the father; blessed, blessed is the family; blessed, blessed is the mother, who gave birth to the Guru.

ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਿਨਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਜਿਨੀ ਡਿਠਾ ਤਿਨਾ ਲਏ ਛਡਾਇ
धनु धंनु गुरू जिनि नामु अराधिआ आपि तरिआ जिनी डिठा तिना लए छडाइ ॥
Ḏẖan ḏẖan gurū jin nām arāḏẖi▫ā āp ṯari▫ā jinī diṯẖā ṯinā la▫e cẖẖadā▫e.
Blessed, blessed is the Guru, who worships and adores the Naam; He saves Himself, and emancipates those who see Him.

ਹਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲਹੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਧੋਵੈ ਪਾਇ ॥੨॥
हरि सतिगुरु मेलहु दइआ करि जनु नानकु धोवै पाइ ॥२॥
Har saṯgur melhu ḏa▫i▫ā kar jan Nānak ḏẖovai pā▫e. ||2||
O Lord, be kind, and unite me with the True Guru, that servant Nanak may wash His feet. ||2||
It even at very cursory look referes to the connotation of a teacher who teaches the understanding of creator and creation. It neither calls such a son of God, avatar, or anything else that you may be driving at.

Very disturbing and I hope I am wrong.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Bhgat Singh Ji,
My answer to your question is as under

First thing it can be understood from Gurbaani that the CREATOR being refered in SGGS is not FORMLESS as we think.
Gurbaani clearly tells us about the FORM of CREATOR and this is stated to be WAVE FORM {JOTi}.We are required to recognise this FORM of the CREATOR.
I think you can verify this yourself from within Gurbaani.

Second point regarding "Vedic concept of Avtaar".This I think refers to Taking Birth of any Human with embodiment of the Creator.There can be some other meaning too which I may not be knowing.
Since Vedic Conceptof Avtaar isnot applicable in Sikh philosophy of Gurbaani so I just tried to find our some appropriate meaning So I have mentioned to that as a probable approprite meaning which is likely to conform Sikh Philosophy of Gurbaani.

I think I have answered your question as my own understanding.I may be rectified.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Prakash Singh ji.
To my understanding, Jyoti is Formless. By Formless I mean Nirgun and by Form, Sargun. (I posted some writings from SGGS couple posts back to Ishna ji.)

What are your thoughts on them?
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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prakash.s.bagga ji I am not sure I understand.
Bhgat Singh Ji,
My answer to your question is as under

First thing it can be understood from Gurbaani that the CREATOR being refered in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not FORMLESS as we think.
Gurbaani clearly tells us about the FORM of CREATOR and this is stated to be WAVE FORM {JOTi}.We are required to recognise this FORM of the CREATOR.

I think you can verify this yourself from within Gurbaani.

I don't know why but I am feeling greater shock with lot of this posts and the high regard that I generally held you in. I have underlined the sentence that I don't understand. Please provide complete Shabads illustrating your point.
I would love to catch the wave you are talking about versus the effort to understand.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Ambarsaria ji,
catch the wave = effort to understand

Why the shock when both set of words point towards the Truth?
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
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Dec 21, 2010
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Ambarsaria ji,
catch the wave = effort to understand

Why the shock when both set of words point towards the Truth?
Bhagat singh ji you have to help me,

Please identify the wave or link to the same as it would have been much easier for Guru ji to just say it is just a wave that is going through the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/35550-so-dar-meanings.html#post147585

As a matter of fact one could just state as a wave and dependency on this wave in all things happening, this is far from what Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji teaches us, as for my understanding

Thanks for your good posts, I am happy to seek clarification.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Bhagat Singh Ji,
As I can understand the Nirgun and Surgun is the reference for the property not for the form of JOTi.I would be intersted in knowing from your goodself as to where Gurbaani is telling us that the CREATOR is Formless. This would certainly help in improving my own understanding.
In Gurbaani this JOTiis refered as Tarang in several verses of Gurbaani.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 
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