Guru Arjan As Incarnation Of Waheguru?

[BhagatSingh]

Ambarsaria ji,
I understand your frustration. I'll do my best to help you.
Jyot is the eternal soul under whose command the entire universe operates (as poetically uttered in Pauri 27).
Another way of saying it would be:
In this Formlessness, takes place the play of forms. This play of forms and the formlessness in which it takes place, cannot be understood. It is infinitely vast, rich, complex... it can only be tasted from moment to moment. Similar to how one can drink from an ocean but cannot comprehend it. It can be tasted because You are the Formless and the Form. The droplet in the ocean, is the ocean.

In addition:
For Prakash Singh ji, Gurbani says the Creator is Formless and filled with Form. Please contemplate this shabad: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...an-as-incarnation-of-waheguru.html#post149160

To bring this back to Avtars. The Avtar is the embodiment of the Formless. In other words, Avtar has realized that it is the Formless. In other words, Jyot has fully taken over the Deh of the Avtar. In other words, Avtar is a very wise being. In other words, Avtar has understood the creator and creation and lives in consonance with it. In other words, <what Ishna ji said in her second post> tee hee!

 

[Ambarsaria]

Ambarsaria ji,
I understand your frustration. I'll do my best to help you.
Jyot is the eternal soul under whose command the entire universe operates (as poetically uttered in Pauri 27).
Another way of saying it would be:
In this Formlessness, takes place the play of forms. This play of forms and the formlessness in which it takes place, cannot be understood. It is infinitely vast, rich, complex... it can only be tasted from moment to moment. Similar to how one can drink from an ocean but cannot comprehend it. It can be tasted because You are the Formless and the Form. The droplet in the ocean, is the ocean.

Bhagat Singh ji I simply understand that to be "the creator" and the resulting "the creation". I am cool with that. This wave theory business is little far fetched.

I do believe also that this "Jyot" merging with the so called "Big Jyot" is a concept much maligned in that it make people believe that some effort is required to be part of what they are already part of. It becomes an end in itself.

Guru Granth Sahib ji and out Gurus teachings teach us beyond the effort of merging. They teach us to understand creation and work with this understanding for living in consonance of the creation that surrounds each and every one of us.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: I believe Ishna ji definitely did a great post as you flagged. There is a slight dilemma I have. I will post it as a reply to Isna ji's second post.

 

[Adi Nanaki]

Also, how do you perceive Guruship when at times there were up to five Gurus past present and future alive at the same time?

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ambarsaria ji,
Sure, if you find those words attractive. But that merging thing, that's what it kind of feels like, at least that's one way to describe it. You melt away into...
Imagine the waves and how it rises and falls back. It's never separate but it feels like it is. "I'm a wave!" it says. It is present for a moment then it merges with the source. In the end, all waves are just ocean moving around.

Ultimately, all these are just words. The essence cannot be put into words.

Adi Nanaki ji,
How do you mean?

 

[Ambarsaria]

Also, how do you perceive Guruship when at times there were up to five Gurus past present and future alive at the same time?

Adi Nanaki ji I am not sure if your question is general or addressed to me.

From my perspective it goes without saying that Gurus were brilliant in their own ways as well as different from each other in worldly ways and not necessarily spiritually. So Guru Arjun Dev ji was considered the most appropriate to be creating the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a collection of all the Gurbani contributors thereof. It will speak of aspects beyond spirituality per se as well including embedding structure in arrangements to make it difficult to make changes to the writings later.

All Gurus were part of creation and supportive of the one creator as well as telling all that they were also part of the same set up.

There is no question that our love, regard and respect has no limits but Guru ji did not believe in avtars nor they wanted to be known as one. This is my understanding from limited understanding that I may have.

With great respect for all.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

It is quite understandable that the concept of JOTi Wave or Tarang as form of Creator may be disturbing for many of us because we have so far never understood Gurbaani messages in terms of SABAD TARANG.However this concept of SABAD TARANG or WAVE
in Gurbaani can not be overlooked.
We should try to grasp the concept it would enable us to get the intrisic meanings of Gurbaani and we can consolidate Sikh philosophy as quite distinct in the world..
So long as we shall be understanding our Gurbaani thru the lense of western philosophy based on word GOD or as In India thru the lense of Hindu philosophy basedon the word PARMATMA we will not be able establish the Sikh philosophy as distinct and unique from Other philosophies of the world.
I have simply purt my observations from Gurbaani messages.I would not expect all agree to this .The obsevations presented are only for sharing the views .I may rectify my own understanding from sharing of the views if I would feel wrong.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Bhagat Singh Ji,

I have gone thru your suggested shabad at the link mentioned by your goodself.Here I find that you are considering the Meaning of Niankaar as Formless.I personally differ in this meaning.
I understand the meaning of the word NIRANKAAR as Something which is out of ONKAAR.
In Gurbaani we would find that the knowledge of the CREATOR is being stated before creation of ONKAAR.We should understand this.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Adi Nanaki]

Guru Nanak's light imbued each Guru for the time they served as Guru. This is what I feel was passed on to distinguish the Guru who carried the present Guruship. Now we have 36 Gurus and saints guiding us through Siri Guru Granth Sahib, more when you consider all ten Gurus are embodied in its pages. Everyone in the world also has each of the ten Gurus prevailing through their ten bodies: Guru Nanak-soul, Guru Angad-negative/cautious mind, Guru Amar Das-positive mind, Guru Ram Das-neutral mind, Guru Arjan-physical body, Guru Hargobind-arcline/halo, Guru Har Rai-aura, Guru Har Krishan-pranic body, Guru Teg Bahadur=subtle body, Guru Gobind Singh-radiant body/electromagnetic field, and Siri Guru Granth-giving mastery over all ten bodies. The Gurus prevail through all people, both tyrants to awaken us and saints, to bring in the new millennium.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Haha yes. That is very novel I must say. icecreammunda

 

[Ambarsaria]

Adi Nanki ji thank you.

I have not studied the Shabad referred to by Ishna ji in great depth and context. It appears to be in a contextual sense an "epilogue" form in the holy book. It is written by a non-Guru about the Gurus and much in the sense of the writer having read is providing a gist of their thoughts which of course were included with review, I have to believe.

I do not believe Gurus themselves wrote anything about each other in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to portray as the Gateway to the creator, son or messenger of the same, avatar, etc.

All above written with great regard but trying to understand.

Any thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

Spnadmin ji,
You just want to know why it is necessar to use the word Avtaar This thread is related to getting the some appropriate meaning to this only.
I have already clarified that I consider the word meaning as a reference for a personshowing a trait or typical characterto a marked degree {in this case it is the Creator}.Nowhere I have ever said that the Avtaar has been used in Vedic sense this is your assumption.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Prakash S. Bagga ji

I disagree. Yes the meaning of avatar is necessary. So far. I don't see any serious attempt to define it by those who claim that the word 'avatar" is more than a description of the Hindu Bhatts of the magnificence of the Gurusahiban, in the context of their own spiritual experience. The purpose of the thread is to resolve some tuks that another forum member found puzzling. Rather than pursue that, there have been attempts to richly embroider the fabric of giaan by bringing in unfounded philosophical arguments. They are unfounded because they are not supported in the ShabadGuru. And these are arguments that take imho significant liberties with the actions and words of the Gurus themselves.

 

[spnadmin]

It is quite understandable that the concept of JOTi Wave or Tarang as form of Creator may be disturbing for many of us because we have so far never understood Gurbaani messages in terms of SABAD TARANG.However this concept of SABAD TARANG or WAVE
in Gurbaani can not be overlooked.
We should try to grasp the concept it would enable us to get the intrisic meanings of Gurbaani and we can consolidate Sikh philosophy as quite distinct in the world..
So long as we shall be understanding our Gurbaani thru the lense of western philosophy based on word GOD or as In India thru the lense of Hindu philosophy basedon the word PARMATMA we will not be able establish the Sikh philosophy as distinct and unique from Other philosophies of the world.
I have simply purt my observations from Gurbaani messages.I would not expect all agree to this .The obsevations presented are only for sharing the views .I may rectify my own understanding from sharing of the views if I would feel wrong.

Prakash.S.Bagga

We have discussed this on other threads. In fact at one point I was driven to place the word "God" in brackets like this [God] in order to make it clear that I used the word advisedly, and not in the western sense. If a person is translating anything from an eastern text written in an eastern language, for the benefit of readers from another cultural and religious experience, the translator, I suppose, would try to build a bridge between one world and another. [God] is a word the west understands. What is the point of translating anything into terminology that someone else does not understand? It is always possible to use the word [God] and then define it in a different way.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

SpnAdmin Ji..
You have hit on a very valid point that most always miss..
GURU Nanak Ji and even the earlier Bhagat Sahibaans..were of NECESSITY FORCED to use the prevalent WORDS...{Har}..{Bhagwaan} {krishan..murari..nand laal..Ghaniyah..Raam..{Govind..Gobind..Narayan..etc etc etc..BUT the MEANINGS of these WORDS in GURBANI or the concept of GURMATT behind them is entirely OPPOSITE to the Hindu/accepted version. Guru Ji means to convey..a "CONCEPT" while the Hindus accepted these as AVTAARS in HUMAN FORM.....so the Krishan murari gobind ghaniyah of the HINDU is NOT the same as the one in GURBANI...

Same aplies to {GOD/YAHWEH?ALLAH RAHIM} what is WAHEGURU/AKAL PURAKH/GURU/SATGURU in Gurmatt is NOT the exact same thing that westerners understand..

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

I dont think that even we Sikhs have clearly understood the meanings of the words
Wahi GurU /AkalPurakh/GuRU or Sati GuRu otherwise we would given better explanation of the other different words mentioned in Gurbaani.
We are also taking the support of the words like GODandor LORD to interprate Gurbaani.
This should given a thought.

Prakash.S.bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

I also feel that it would be incorrect to think that GuRU Nanak or others were forced
to use prevalent words as the source of Gurbaani is not any person.The whole Baani is of GuR and the person involved is only conveying what is being listened by him.
I am greatly surprised at this note of great callibre like Giyani Jarnail Singh Ji.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Bagga ji..
my use of the word "forced" means LIMITATIONS...not that any person or soemthing held a knife at Guru jis throat and commanded Him.."write this" Guur Arjun Ji chose to give His life rather than submit the Pothi sahib to any changes etc...so it is clear that the "force" is not what you take it as..
What I meant is that these "words" etc already existed..Guur Ji gave them NEW GURMATT ORINTED direction/meanings..which we MUST understand rather than go back to wearing "Bhagwa glasses" so that everything appears ORANGE !!

Where it was possible..Guru Ji refused to use the prevalent matter..like in SANSKRIT. sanskrit was the defacto accepted language of Dharma/religious texts..GURU Nanak ji REJECTED that and chose to write Gurbani in the New Script GURMUKHI/PUNJABI. But in the field of VOCABULARY..Guru ji accepted the popular words...it was His choice again.

I hope this clarifies Jios.. btw I am the same calibre as all of you jios..no better no worse..we are all SIKHS..learners. Please !!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Here we are arguing about Avtaars..and our fellow SIKHS may soon be comparing Guru Arjun ji to daler Mehndi...Here is a video of Bhai jasbir Singh Paonta sahib on stage..SGGS is parkash..and see whats happening...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SlbeWW55IxY

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

GIYAN JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
I thank you for consideration given to my messages.I have seen what is happening in the U Tube.Here What you say is right.This is height of ignorance among us.Only WAHi GuRU can help .Nothing more can be commented .
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

On one hand people don't have time for praying and going to Gurudwara. On other hand, those who 'take out' time, end up in such events

 

[Adi Nanaki]

I dont think that even we Sikhs have clearly understood the meanings of the words
Wahi GurU /AkalPurakh/GuRU or Sati GuRu otherwise we would given better explanation of the other different words mentioned in Gurbaani.
We are also taking the support of the words like GODandor LORD to interprate Gurbaani.
This should given a thought.

Prakash.S.bagga

Rather than translate the Guru's words for God, which are many, often with subtle differences, translators should best trust Gurus' choice and use Guru's exact word rather than attempting to translate, which is always a distortion. The words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are written in Naadh--they are what they sound like. One does not need to intellectually understand. As Guru Nanak so aptly explained in the Suneeays of Japji, by meditatively listening to the very sound, their divine meaning becomes perfectly clear.