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How Could Guru Nanak Visit Mecca If He Wasn't A Muslim?

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Ishna ji the 9th Hijr covers the period of 14th and 15th Centuries. That is about 1372 to 1471 but I could be wrong. Hijr is basically a Century counted from the birth of Prophet Muhammad in 571.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

spnadmin

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Jun 17, 2004
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The muslim world of Nanaak's time (15th Century) was also very different from today. Traveling from one region to another was common. Then the muslim world was a very open place, and if you were a citizen of one region it was very easy to enter another -- in large part because the idea of nationhood was not really part of the world view. You came from a city-state but were a citizen of the mulsim world.

Mecca, which is in Saudi Arabia today, was under the protection of a sheik. There was no Saudi Arabia with a customs office to check your passport. In fact all of Saudi was a collection of principalities each governed by a ruling family. An entirely different place.

Ishna ji

The subject of panarabism is relevant to some degree in this discussion. The lock down of the arab world into nation states began in 1922 with the dissolution of the British raj. The idea of national borders commences in the arab world at that point. My statement about the Wahabists deserves some consideration...as the purity of the Saudi state and with that Mecca carries a kind of religious ardour with it but it is really very recent in kind.

That alone provides a context for the thread title. My suspicion is that the thread would seem nonsensical centuries past.

But that is not my main concern...to be historically exact. If we go back to the very first article in this thread the issues are made clear. To ask whether Guru Nanak could visit Mecca if he were not a Muslim has an implied meaning that serves the interests of distorting history. There are those who would like to show that Guru Nanak was nothing more than one more sant from northern India who was greately influenced by the Bakhti movement, as such influenced by muslim sants and gurus. There is a long history to this I fear, and it undermines Guru Nanak and Sikhism to imply that Sikhism is a variant of an islamic philosophy. Yet it has been so stated over and over again here at SPN and elsewhere on the net.

The original article in the thread does a good job of analyzing this puzzle, or should we say concerted act of disinformation and distortion.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Dec 21, 2010
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At least 1503:
The first such recorded example is that of Ludovico di Varthema of Bologna in 1503.<sup id="cite_ref-73" class="reference">[74]</sup> The most famous was Richard Francis Burton,<sup id="cite_ref-74" class="reference">[75]</sup> who traveled as a Qadiriyyah Sufi from Afghanistan in 1853.
Ishna ji the travellers mentioned only refers to European travellers. Guru ji , Indo-Aryans, Arabs, East Asians, Mongolic descendents, and many non-Europeans would likely have been considered locals for all intents and purposes.

Probably even the city boundaries were not that well defined too. It was very open land for people as long as they did not start a fight to rule a place.

Just a thought.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Ishna

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Thanks Ambarsaria ji.

SPNAdmin's question was, at what time in history were non-Muslims prohibited from entering Mecca. The example given was to give a ball-park idea that they were definately excluded at 1503 since someone was recorded as sneaking in. So it wasn't in the last 200 years, for instance.
 

Ambarsaria

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Thanks Ishna ji for the answer.

Only thing to watch out is that Europeans were much easily recognized and given the history of crusades were watched out for. Others coming going in hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) were not looked at. I think that is projected (not verified) about local dynamics of the time. Your example nicely shows the sensitivity about it in 1503.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

spnadmin

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Jun 17, 2004
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Thanks Ambarsaria ji.

SPNAdmin's question was, at what time in history were non-Muslims prohibited from entering Mecca. The example given was to give a ball-park idea that they were definately excluded at 1503 since someone was recorded as sneaking in. So it wasn't in the last 200 years, for instance.

It is true that I asked that question. However, I did not play all of my cards in this discussion at one time. It has always been apparent from the very start of the thread the following:

If Mecca was closed to non Muslims when Guru Nanak was a visitor,
And...if Guru Nanak found his way there,
Must we conclude one of the following:

A. He sneaked in and his identity was not discovered.
B. He was actually a Muslim.

A does not satisfy our need to know how it is that Guru Nanak was not discovered as a non muslim, or why the Qazis let him preach once he arrived at the center, even after "the mosque turned." (Another specious story whose point is nearly often missed and whose parallel narrative in Hindu philosophy and history is nearly always ignored.)

B would explain why Guru Nanak was not seized, arrested, or thrown out. It also satisfies why he was permitted to preach and was even scolded. B suggests that people though he was a muslim. B also represents the conclusion "we are supposed to draw"... when we are unaware that this is a trolling exercise that is used to rile the forum and perpetuate unnecessary and venomous discussion, that hurts Sikh religious sentiments and undermines Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Being able to date the times in history when Mecca was closed to non muslims helps us see how the question of the thread can become a tool in the hands of fanatics.
 
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