How Important Is Matha Tekking?

[Harry Haller]

Re: How important is Matha Tekking

Do you mean that majority think of it is a ritual like idol worship. So, if you don't do you won't get heard ?
Do some really think like that ?

Luckyji,

It is the nature of people to want, that is why our Islamic friends do so well, they give people what they want, as do the Babas and Deras, people do not mind doing good, provided there is a payback, if the only payback is that the reward is to have more chances to do that good, as per Sikhi, it soon becomes boring to many, no one wants to cultivate their mind, no one wants to explore the philosophy, we live in a quick fix world, you want it, you can have it, you can pay people to do the work for you, you can pray to god for a better life, rather than use Bani to give your brain a workout so you can figure it out for yourself, its not about what you know anymore, its about how religious you are, how in favour with God you are, understanding, study and implementation remain a quaint path, the requests in the Ardass just get more and more

 

[chazSingh]

Re: How important is Matha Tekking

waheguru g ka khalsa
waheguru g ki fateh

me also with u 70% for lip servce as its not that important but not its not a mere formality....... its the emotions of sangat to kiss the dust of guru's feet.

but yes matha tekana is really really very important for every sikh or non sikh while going guruduwara sahid otherwise it would make us and babaji at the same level which we are definitly not.

Lovely post

There is also something mentioned in Gurbani called Dandauth Bandhna. To lie chest against the floor, arms spread out and holding the feet of your guru. I have only seen one person in a gurdwara do this and it struck me deep in my heart.

Matha tek, dandauth bandna, cleaning the shoes of the sangat are all there to show love for god and his creation (which is god also), and to BURN our EGO.

If we can do these things without caring for what others think, we are killing our ego and letting gods love blossom forth.

I can do matha tek quite easily, everyone does it...no embarassment there. Can i do dandauth bandna? can i go into the gurdwara on a busy sunday and start cleaning people shoes? the mind instantly starts to think of excuses, the ego starts holding you back....I need to confront this Ego, understand that it gets in the way of godly love, and do ardaas asking for god to help me overcome it

God bless you

 

[chazSingh]

Re: How important is Matha Tekking

Luckyji,

It is the nature of people to want, that is why our Islamic friends do so well, they give people what they want, as do the Babas and Deras, people do not mind doing good, provided there is a payback, if the only payback is that the reward is to have more chances to do that good, as per Sikhi, it soon becomes boring to many, no one wants to cultivate their mind, no one wants to explore the philosophy, we live in a quick fix world, you want it, you can have it, you can pay people to do the work for you, you can pray to god for a better life, rather than use Bani to give your brain a workout so you can figure it out for yourself, its not about what you know anymore, its about how religious you are, how in favour with God you are, understanding, study and implementation remain a quaint path, the requests in the Ardass just get more and more

Satnaam Harry Ji,

I used to pray a lot, asking for things, help with things, help for my family, a loved on that has health issues. I then realised these were all selfish things...why do i pray for my family, when i can't even pray for a stranger on the street. how can i be so selfless.

Now i do only one ardaas before i do my seva or Simran.

I kindly ask Guru Ji, all saints, bhagats, enlightened souls to come sit with me and meditate...I summon them
Then i ask god to show me how i can serve him and remember his name (satnaam)...I summon god (he is the only doer, so i ask him to show me)
And then I ask that no matter what happens in my life, no matter if the world is burning all around me, that i may never ever forget his naam.

Does God hear this prayer? i can say with 100% certainty that he does.
Can i explain to you how i can be so certain? probably not, but can we all have this experience....ofcourse we can

God bless you.

 

[Kamala]

But bowing down is not a ritual, it's a sign of respect, like when you get ashirvaad.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

Kamala ji I remember in some other thread you had different views

 

[Harry Haller]

It all depends whether she has her Sikh or Hindu hat on

lol lol lol

 

[navneetk]

interesting thread! Harry ji..in your opinion sikhs shoulod not pray at all. You should not be surprised to make a note that Ardas is only a formal way of making a prayer but real prayer happens automatically when we do Nitnem of our five banis or for that mattter entire Granth sahib contains eulogization of God and is a prayer in implicit form wherein you will find Gurus in all humility praying to God for whatever they wanted to receive. I hope you would do better if you really understand the meaning of prayer by integrating bani and it can be really achieved if you realize that for God everything is possible.

The fact that you started this thread is an ample proof that yoiu prayed siliently for the well being of your father, having done this you wanted a validation of the act that you did not do i.e. not getting a formal ardas in Gurudwara. I understand your predicament that you do not want to visit Gurudwara. It is not posssible for a son who loves his parents to not to make a paryer whenh they need it. You are wise enough to know that it is our humble duty to obey our parents. You must have obeyed your mother. No offence meant.

If conclusion arrived at is absurd there should be something wrong with the reasoning or logic and you would do a great service to do a small analysis as to 'where is the lacuna' in yoiur reasoning.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

And Now lets move on....
Next question....

How "Important" is listening to kirtan..standing up in ardass..listening to Hukmnama..and MOST IMPORTANT of all...

How "IMPORTANT" is Taking/eating Karrah Parshaad ????
and
How "Important" is walking Backwards out of Darbar sahib...!!japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:

 

[Kamala]

Things change ;p mind sharing my other views?

 

[Harry Haller]

interesting thread! Harry ji..in your opinion sikhs shoulod not pray at all. You should not be surprised to make a note that Ardas is only a formal way of making a prayer but real prayer happens automatically when we do Nitnem of our five banis or for that mattter entire Granth sahib contains eulogization of God and is a prayer in implicit form wherein you will find Gurus in all humility praying to God for whatever they wanted to receive. I hope you would do better if you really understand the meaning of prayer by integrating bani and it can be really achieved if you realize that for God everything is possible.

In my view real prayer happens when you implement Bani in your waking life, if you can touch people with Bani, that is the only prayer I am interested in. I do not believe our Gurus prayed to God for what they wanted to receive, I believe they accepted the will of God completely and without question, why would I go against that?

The fact that you started this thread is an ample proof that yoiu prayed siliently for the well being of your father, having done this you wanted a validation of the act that you did not do i.e. not getting a formal ardas in Gurudwara. I understand your predicament that you do not want to visit Gurudwara. It is not posssible for a son who loves his parents to not to make a paryer whenh they need it. You are wise enough to know that it is our humble duty to obey our parents. You must have obeyed your mother. No offence meant.

No offence taken, but I would not go into a career in the judicial system if I were you, your definition of ample proof leaves a lot to be desired lol. No, I did not pray silently for my father, the thought never occurred to me, as for feeling guilty that I did not go to Gurudwara, that is the most absurd thing I have ever read, I would not insult my fathers name by including it in the long list of driving students, medical students, people moving house, people starting businesses, people asking for baby boys, etc and also having to pay for it, you seem to have turned Ardas into a magic spell that one pays for, show me a Gurudwara where they have no rituals, no operatic recitations, no air of serious holiness, where the Ardas is a sincere passionate request for nothing other than the strength and wisdom to completely accept the will of God, rather than a bored monotone of names and financial amounts, and I will happily goto that Gurudwara every week..It is our humble duty to obey Creator, it is our humble duty to love and care for our parents as guided my Bani.

i

f conclusion arrived at is absurd there should be something wrong with the reasoning or logic and you would do a great service to do a small analysis as to 'where is the lacuna' in yoiur reasoning.

My reasoning comes from what I believe Bani is telling me. And that reasoning is telling me that no amount of rituals and paid for prayers is going to change the course of the future, no amount of Matha Tekking, listening to Kirtan, standing up, sitting down, bending over, is going to help anyone, sure, do it because the joy of sharing with Creator is a wonderful feeling, but if you class yourself as religious because you observe all these things, and nothing more, than you have lost, in my view, the true essence of Sikhism.

 

[Ishna]

And Now lets move on....
Next question....

and MOST IMPORTANT of all...

How "IMPORTANT" is Taking/eating Karrah Parshaad ????
...

Are you nuts??!! It's like, the MOST IMPORTANT THING, no question about it!!! icecreamkaur

But seriously...


Question: People who have Babaji in their homes, do they have a golak as well??

 

[Ishna]

And that reasoning is telling me that no amount of rituals and paid for prayers is going to change the course of the future, no amount of Matha Tekking, listening to Kirtan, standing up, sitting down, bending over, is going to help anyone, sure, do it because the joy of sharing with Creator is a wonderful feeling, but if you class yourself as religious because you observe all these things, and nothing more, than you have lost, in my view, the true essence of Sikhism.

Nailed it brother.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Because SIKHS believe in HUKM....and HUKM doesnt change....HE makes all HUKM.Period.
Even when a SIKH has the ability to see into the Future..HUKM still holds firm...In Guru Arjun jis time there was a sikh who wanted to learn about HUKM..Guru ji sent him to Bhai ferus house..on arrival he found preparations going on for a wedding...on asking about the whereabouts of Bhai feru ji..he was told he was in a room...and upon entering the room he was shocked to discover that Bahi feru was preparing a Kaffan. For who is that ? OH its for my son who's getting married tomorrow and who will then die returning home form his wedding...and what are you doing to alter that ?? NOTHING..I ma preparing to follow HUKM. and it came to pass that exactly that happened..first Bhai feru attended the wedding of his only son..was happy along with everyone else...and then coming back home the son died suddenly...and Bhai feru used the kaffan he had already prepared..he wasnt unduly happy or unduly sad..as its all in HIS HUKM.

Should Bhai feru had "prayed" for his sons life to be extended ?? For a long happy married life ?? upset the HUKM ?? A SIKH always lives life in SHUKRANNA..thanksgiving ONLY.....following HUKM all the way...Worldly prayers for riches..beautiful wives or 72 virgins after death..heavens, or avoiding hells..etc etc..have no place in TRUE GURMATT because HE PROVIDES the BEST always...ALWAYS...!! Bin bollian sabh kich jaanta..He KNOWS !! ALWAYS whats BEST....the Begging prayer is superflous...SHUKRANNA always.

 

[Archived_member15]

My dear brother Harry Haller ji peacesignkaur

On another forum, a Christian forum, a few years ago I read a short post by a fellow Catholic which I think was very powerful and had a really impact on my spiritual formation. In it, he also quoted the writings of a Catholic mystic - John Ruysbroeck - to back up what he was saying, and he said precisely what you have just said brother, here is his post:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

To my mind, and that of my dying mother, there is more to prayer than supplication. For some, prayer is training the mind to be receptive to grace and to God. My mother's cancer will not be prayed away, but she can draw closer to God through prayer while she is still alive. As I say, for some prayer is about the union with God in our inner lives, not begging a Big Santa for favours or presents. My mother's faith has increased since being diagnosed as terminal - and she knows the cancer isn't going away, miraculously or otherwise.


"...There we will abide—unified, empty, and imageless—raised up through love to the open bareness of our mind, for when we transcend all things in love and die to all rational observations in a dark state of unknowing, we become transformed through the working of the eternal Word, who is an image of the Father. In the empty being of our spirit we receive an incomprehensible resplendence which envelops and pervades us in the same way that the air is pervaded by the light of the sun. This resplendence is nothing other than an act of gazing and seeing which has no ground: What we are is what we see, and what we see is what we are, for our mind, our life, and our very being are raised up in a state of oneness and united with the truth that is God himself. In this simple act of seeing we are therefore one life and one spirit with God. This is what I call a contemplative life. When we cleave to God in love we are practicing what is called the better part, but when we gaze at our superessential being in the way just described we possess God whole and entire...."

- Blessed John Ruysbroeck (1294-1381) – The Sparkling Stone quoted from The Spiritual Espousals and other works [Paulist Press, Wiseman, James A. trans. p 171]

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

yes Brother Vouthon Ji..you have got it right...Prayer is to draw us CLOSER to HIM..not attempts at "solving" our own man made problems...like wanting badly to excel when spent all time discoing and clubbing..ha ha..or lounging on the sofa watching tv and wanting to posses a mansion and a Ferrari..he he...or wishing for six-ab body but drinking like a fish 24/7...he he....prayers dont bring Feraris or cure cancers..GURBANI makes this amply clear (but there are many who have eyes but dont want to see..have ears but dont want to hear..have TONGUES...BUT DONT WANT TO KEEP SILENT !!!! ). None of the Gurus have ever mentioned that such and such a shabad can cure cancer..make an amputated foot grow back..BUT ALL the shabads do talk about the Longing to MEET Him..meet the Beloved..Union with the Creator..the Bride/groom shabads..the Laavann are all essentially about the longing to be closer to Him....
Sikhism also has its share of fake Snake Oil merchants..the Babas and derawadees..who market certain shabads as cure-all...and make tons of money off gullible fools who buy their fake advertising gimmicks..

 

[BhagatSingh]

Harry ji,

I do not play games with Guruji, if I were to see him, of course I would bow to him as I bow to my mother or father, but to elevate this act to the point of importance, to say it there is a point to it, to even suggest it is Sikhi, in my view is wrong, there is nothing Sikhi about bowing, it is pure respect and an expression of heartfelt love.

The tradition of bowing down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji comes from Guru Gobind Singh ji. Who bowed down to it after placing before it a few Paise. Therefore, it is quite "Sikhi" to bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Speaking about bowing.
First there is bowing. Most people never get past this stage, they just don't see the value of exploring further. They are too concerned with their material possessions and worldly things to care about the content.

Next there is attention to content, a few who got past the first stage end up here. Great! but most get stuck here. They don't realize this is just a stage in development. The content is just a sophisticated material and worldly thing. They see further than the previous group of people but not far enough. Only a few see further and move forward.

Finally we find bowing again, and only bowing, nothing else, no content, there maybe some but not much, kind of like the first stage but different in an unexplainable way, the mind does a 360. A few get to this, and then they bow and bow and bow...

Cheers

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:

ਡੰਡਉਤਿ ਬੰਦਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਬਾਰ ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਸਮਰਥ ॥
डंडउति बंदन अनिक बार सरब कला समरथ ॥
Dand▫uṯ banḏan anik bār sarab kalā samrath.
I bow down, and fall to the ground in humble adoration, countless times, to the All-powerful Lord, who possesses all powers.

ਡੋਲਨ ਤੇ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇ ਕਰਿ ਹਥ ॥੧॥
डोलन ते राखहु प्रभू नानक दे करि हथ ॥१॥
Dolan ṯe rākẖo parabẖū Nānak ḏe kar hath. ||1||
Please protect me, and save me from wandering, God. Reach out and give Nanak Your Hand. ||1||
256

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
रागु गउड़ी पूरबी महला ४ ॥
Rāg ga▫oṛī pūrbī mėhlā 4.
Raag Gauree Poorbee, Fourth Mehl:

ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਖੰਡਲ ਖੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
कामि करोधि नगरु बहु भरिआ मिलि साधू खंडल खंडा हे ॥
Kām karoḏẖ nagar baho bẖari▫ā mil sāḏẖū kẖandal kẖanda he.
The body-village is filled to overflowing with anger and sexual desire; these were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint.

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਤ ਲਿਖੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੧॥
पूरबि लिखत लिखे गुरु पाइआ मनि हरि लिव मंडल मंडा हे ॥१॥
Pūrab likẖaṯ likẖe gur pā▫i▫ā man har liv mandal mandā he. ||1||
By pre-ordained destiny, I have met with the Guru. I have entered into the realm of the Lord's Love. ||1||

ਕਰਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਅੰਜੁਲੀ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
करि साधू अंजुली पुनु वडा हे ॥
Kar sāḏẖū anjulī pun vadā he.
Greet the Holy Saint with your palms pressed together; this is an act of great merit.

ਕਰਿ ਡੰਡਉਤ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
करि डंडउत पुनु वडा हे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Kar dand▫uṯ pun vadā he. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Bow down before Him; this is a virtuous action indeed. ||1||Pause||
page 13

Harry ji

I want to give you the example of when I first started going to Gurdwara Sahib, and I was so nervous I would get to darbar sahib very early so no one would see me. One morning, before anyone else was in there, a Singh came in and did the most elabourate matha tek I've ever seen to date - he didn't just bow, he layed down on his stomach! I would like to say it was a genuine matha tek, but I recall he had a friend with him at the time. So even that may have just been for the friend's benefit. But who am I to judge?

Called a dandaut ਡੰਡਉਤ 0 Full submission. Try it, it floors your ego. pun intended

 

[Harry Haller]

BhagatSinghji

I should fully submit my mind first, so my body expresses this submission surely, rather than concentrate on the physical expression alone, what is the point of physical submission?

To those who have submitted mind and body, I have only the fullest admiration.

 

[Ishna]

Brother, you could liken Matha Tekna to daily Nitnem. I think you can apply this shabad exactly to your predicament:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37828-nitnaym-the-daily-grind-2.html#post158929

Like a student who wants to be a concert pianist wondering why he should bother learning his scales when he would rather be learning Mozart.

On the one hand Sikhs need to be mindful of Guru Nanak's essential teaching against superstition and ritualism, but does that mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

If we know the deeper meaning and value of a ritual act, and use it to further our devotion and connection to Guru, and can recognise when a ritual behaviour becomes the end instead of the means, then why not go for it?

 

[Ishna]

Matha tekna is a physical expression of this sort sentiment:

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td> ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
Salok.
Shalok:
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਡੰਡਉਤਿ ਬੰਦਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਬਾਰ ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਸਮਰਥ ॥
Dand▫uṯ banḏan anik bār sarab kalā samrath.
I bow down, and fall to the ground in humble adoration, countless times, to the All-powerful Lord, who possesses all powers.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਡੋਲਨ ਤੇ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇ ਕਰਿ ਹਥ ॥੧॥
Dolan ṯe rākẖo parabẖū Nānak ḏe kar hath. ||1||
Please protect me, and save me from wandering, God. Reach out and give Nanak Your Hand. ||1||
</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[BhagatSingh]

BhagatSinghji

I should fully submit my mind first, so my body expresses this submission surely, rather than concentrate on the physical expression alone, what is the point of physical submission?


To those who have submitted mind and body, I have only the fullest admiration.

Yes Harry ji, the mind and body are quite related. I can hug someone and feel more love for them than if I sat back and contemplated love for them. Both work and together they are even more powerful. Look for yourself, you will see how they both work. Try it, go hug a stranger or two if that's too much of a ritual to ask for

Hahah you know this is all very amusing to me. If guru sahib had said back in 15th century, "Ok guys today we'll all go out and hug people. This will allow us to see manas ki jaat sabhaai ekai pehchanbo". Then today, you would find Sikhs saying "well Guru Nanak rejected rituals, and I don't have to hug, I can just hug them in my mind. Some people hug and they still hate bla bla bla". Now you could do that but you have been gifted two machines, two tools. The mind and the body. Using both is better than using one or the other.

Wait! Isn't doing things in the mind a ritual? or is that somehow more special because it happens to be in the mind?

Recognize the mind and body to be one. As you do your daily ritual, do it as if your mind and body were one. I know it does not feel that way but that is just limited perception that we are all gifted with. Do report back with your experiences if you try it for at least a few months.

You learn to paint by painting. The painting is the means to an end but the end is what? The end is more painting. But through this process something has changed, yes? Rembrant was painting when he was say 8 (ignorant), and was still painting in the old age (wise). It's the same with ritual. If you want to be a Sikh stick to the traditional Sikh rituals and just do them. Now of course, you don't have to do them but then if you reject those rituals then expect to be called a non-Sikh or even an atheist, that's just how it is (traditionally in India only the atheist philosophical schools in Hinduism rejected religious rituals hence why some Sikhs will just call you an atheist; Sikhs did NOT btw).

You don't have to do a particular ritual, you can certainly have your own ritual. Last summer I would either wake up at 6 or more often stay up until 6-7 am and go out in the balcony and feel the cold, hard wood with my bare feet. and I looked at cats around my house, trying to hunt birds and squirrels. Listened to the birds and that was it, that was the ritual.

Through too much contemplation you lose touch with the body, when you recognize that, it's time to go back and get in touch.

PS the point of physical submission is physical submission.