Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[lionprinceuk]

I respect your opinion, please do not speculate on what Guru Ji couldn't have done. Basing on Bachittar Natak, please do not negate the purpose of Khalsa. Same Guru also says" Manas kee jaat sabh ek hee pehchanove(close to it). In a society deeply drowned in castye system, how a low class family could have dared to offer a daughter for the Guru bridegroom when so called Kashattryas were doing all the spoon feeding to marry off their daughters in Guru ghar? Ponder over it before concluding your judgment on Guru's marriages. Guru Sahiban were a way above this filth.

Well my opinion is based on the society the Guru jis lived in and also the traditions tha they followed and were brought up in.

And for khalsa, I have not negated it at all, I have just supported the warrior influence and tradition of khalsa, Guru ji has also acknowledged his warrior heritage:

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib
ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥
सवैया ॥
SWAYYA

ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਕੋ ਪੂਤ ਹੌ ਬਾਮਨ ਕੋ ਨਹਿ ਕੈ ਤਪੁ ਆਵਤ ਹੈ ਜੁ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਅਰੁ ਅਉਰ ਜੰਜਾਰ ਜਿਤੋ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਕੋ ਤੁਹਿ ਤਿਆਗ ਕਹਾ ਚਿਤ ਤਾ ਮੈ ਧਰੋ ॥
छत्री को पूत हौ बामन को नहि कै तपु आवत है जु करो ॥ अरु अउर जंजार जितो ग्रहि को तुहि तिआग कहा चित ता मै धरो ॥
I am the son of a Kshatriya and not of a Brahmin who may instruct for performing severe austerities; how can I absorb myself in the embarrassments of the world by leaving you;

ਅਬ ਰੀਝ ਕੈ ਦੇਹੁ ਵਹੈ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਜੋਊ ਹਉ ਬਿਨਤੀ ਕਰ ਜੋਰ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਜਬ ਆਉ ਕੀ ਅਉਧ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਬਨੈ ਅਤਿਹੀ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਜੂਝ ਮਰੋ ॥੨੪੮੯॥
अब रीझ कै देहु वहै हम कउ जोऊ हउ बिनती कर जोर करो ॥ जब आउ की अउध निदान बनै अतिही रन मै तब जूझ मरो ॥२४८९॥
Whatever request I am making with my folded hands, O Lord ! kindly be graceful and bestow this boon on me that when ever my end comes, then I may die fighting in the battlefield.2489.

Again for the quote of humankind, I have seen that so many people have taken it out of context and only taking the ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ Manas kee jaat sabhey ekai pehchanbo partof the line, just to justify it for caste system only, instead of the whole line:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥
हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥
Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but all the human beings, as a species, are recognized as one and the same.

And in this context, Guru ji has actually used ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ Manas kee jaat sabhey ekai pehchanbo in a much different context than just caste system.

And of course we can get an even better picture with the whole pauri (and i also posted the next pauri because i also like the message it teaches) :

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib
ਕੋਊ ਭਇਓ ਮੁੰਡੀਆ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਕੋਊ ਜੋਗੀ ਭਇਓ ਕੋਊ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਚਾਰੀ ਕੋਊ ਜਤੀ ਅਨੁਮਾਨਬੋ ॥
कोऊ भइओ मुंडीआ संनिआसी कोऊ जोगी भइओ कोऊ ब्रहमचारी कोऊ जती अनुमानबो ॥
Somebody became a Bairagi (recluse), somebody a Sannyasi (mendicant). Somebody a Yogi, somebody a Brahmchari (student observing celibacy) and someone is considered a celibate.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥
हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥
Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but all the human beings, as a species, are recognized as one and the same.

ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੀਮ ਸੋਈ ਰਾਜਕ ਰਹੀਮ ਓਈ ਦੂਸਰੋ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਕੋਈ ਭੂਲਿ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਮਾਨਬੋ ॥
करता करीम सोई राजक रहीम ओई दूसरो न भेद कोई भूलि भ्रम मानबो ॥
Karta (The Creator) and Karim (Merciful) is the same Lord, Razak (The Sustainer) and Rahim (Compassionate) is the same Lord, there is no other second, therefore consider this verbal distinguishing feature of Hindusim and Islam as an error and an illusion.

ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਜੋਤ ਜਾਨਬੋ ॥੧੫॥੮੫॥
एक ही की सेव सभ ही को गुरदेव एक एक ही सरूप सबै एकै जोत जानबो ॥१५॥८५॥
Thus worship the ONE LORD, who is the common enlightener of all; all have been created in His Image and amongst all comprehend the same ONE LIGHT. 15.85.

ਦੇਹਰਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਜਾ ਔ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਓਈ ਮਾਨਸ ਸਬੈ ਏਕ ਪੈ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੋ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
देहरा मसीत सोई पूजा औ निवाज ओई मानस सबै एक पै अनेक को भ्रमाउ है ॥
The temple and the mosque are the same, there is no difference between a Hindu worship and Muslim prayer; all the human beings are the same, but the illusion is of various types.

ਦੇਵਤਾ ਅਦੇਵ ਜੱਛ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਤੁਰਕ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਦੇਸਨ ਕੇ ਭੇਸ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
देवता अदेव ज्छ गंध्रब तुरक हिंदू निआरे निआरे देसन के भेस को प्रभाउ है ॥
The gods, demons, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Turks and Hindus… all these are due to the differences of the various garbs of different countries.

ਏਕੈ ਨੈਨ ਏਕੈ ਕਾਨ ਏਕੈ ਦੇਹ ਏਕੈ ਬਾਨ ਖਾਕ ਬਾਦ ਆਤਿਸ ਔ ਆਬ ਕੋ ਰਲਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
एकै नैन एकै कान एकै देह एकै बान खाक बाद आतिस औ आब को रलाउ है ॥
The eyes are the same, the ears the same, the bodies are the same and the habits are the same, all the creation is the amalgam of earth, air, fire and water.

ਅਲਹ ਅਭੇਖ ਸੋਈ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਅਉ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਓਈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਬਨਾਉ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥੮੬॥
अलह अभेख सोई पुरान अउ कुरान ओई एक ही सरूप सभै एक ही बनाउ है ॥१६॥८६॥
Allah of Muslims and Abhekh (Guiseless) of Hindus are the same, the Puranas of Hindus and the holy Quran of the Muslims depict the same reality; all have been created in the image of the same Lord and have the same formation. 16.86.

Also, for Guru jis to follow their tradition, it would not have neccesarily meant following caste system, and instead just respecting their linage and traditions, so of course they were above the filth of looking at people as higher or lower, but respect is different, and we should all respect the desicions and laws of parents and government. Gurus had to respect their families wishes and could not reject their duty. Guru Nanak had to get married as it was his parents wished, and guru ji showed respect towards his parents. Guru Gobind Singh had to create Khalsa, to protect the socity and to protect dharam. Guru jis followed dharam. It was also their dharam to marry in their tradition, it would have been adharam for them to disobey their parents and family desicions. It is also adharam for us to disobey our own parents. Remember, many people follow adharam in this day and age, even the people that are called as religious, since it is the Kaliyuga/Kalijuga. Guru jis were binded to their human bodies as long as they were in human form (when and if they were able to leave their bodies, then circumstances change of course). Also as citizens we have to follow the law of our countries.

Also, to into caste system. You and I know, that it is evident in gurbani, that Guru ji has respected the 4 varnas equally. They have spiritual equity.
Adi Guru Granth Sahib p747
ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
खत्री ब्राहमण सूद वैस उपदेसु चहु वरना कउ साझा ॥
Kẖaṯrī barāhmaṇ sūḏ vais upḏes cẖahu varnā ka▫o sājẖā.
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਉਧਰੈ ਸੋ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਾਝਾ ॥੪॥੩॥੫੦॥
गुरमुखि नामु जपै उधरै सो कलि महि घटि घटि नानक माझा ॥४॥३॥५०॥
Gurmukẖ nām japai uḏẖrai so kal mėh gẖat gẖat Nānak mājẖā. ||4||3||50||
One who, as Gurmukh, chants the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is saved. In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, O Nanak, God is permeating the hearts of each and every being. ||4||3||50||

Also research and traditions show that these 4 varnas weren't really a system of hierarchy, and more of a way of generalising people of the 4 ways of their duties, where Brahmins would be people who were learned/gyanis, and kshatriya being the warriors, sometimes with people even being able to jump to a different varna.

Bhai Gurdass has also gone into details of the different castes/tribes/jobs of the 4 varnas, in his vaaran.

 

[kds1980]

kdsji

I do understand your point. But what I was really asking is why Sikhs, more than other religious groups, feel that this is necessary.

One of the reason could be that large number of Sikhs that migrated to USA or canada are from villages and caste is more strictly practiced in their families.And I don't know whether the Indian hindu's or muslims in west are from villages or not

 

[pk70]

Lion-prince-jatinder ji
I am glad you have posted in complete, thanks. This very pauri tears apart your tribe theory in context of open minded progression. What does it say? Haven’t you got it? What is all after all (as addressed in paurii)? Those illusions and false claims about the entity that becomes part of soil it originates from. So what value they carry as per Guru Ji? None. All is one race that is human; rest is coined by rusted minds to create divisions to please illusionary thinking (to exploit others). It is the only one form, named by different way by you or me. You speculated on behalf of Guru Sahban, that is not fair to Guru jian. You do whatever pleases you or your family but don’t claim it was approved or supported by Guru jian as they ripped apart these illusions in a broad way in Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Reread the Pouri, it makes your comment laughable in context of Guru’s understanding of various divisions created by closed minds.
ਦੇਹਰਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਜਾ ਔ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਓਈ ਮਾਨਸ ਸਬੈ ਏਕ ਪੈ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੋ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
देहरा मसीत सोई पूजा औ निवाज ओई मानस सबै एक पै अनेक को भ्रमाउ है ॥
The temple and the mosque are the same, there is no difference between a Hindu worship and Muslim prayer; all the human beings are the same, but the illusion is of various types.

ਦੇਵਤਾ ਅਦੇਵ ਜੱਛ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਤੁਰਕ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਦੇਸਨ ਕੇ ਭੇਸ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
देवता अदेव ज्छ गंध्रब तुरक हिंदू निआरे निआरे देसन के भेस को प्रभाउ है ॥
The gods, demons, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Turks and Hindus… all these are due to the differences of the various garbs of different countries.

ਏਕੈ ਨੈਨ ਏਕੈ ਕਾਨ ਏਕੈ ਦੇਹ ਏਕੈ ਬਾਨ ਖਾਕ ਬਾਦ ਆਤਿਸ ਔ ਆਬ ਕੋ ਰਲਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
एकै नैन एकै कान एकै देह एकै बान खाक बाद आतिस औ आब को रलाउ है ॥
The eyes are the same, the ears the same, the bodies are the same and the habits are the same, all the creation is the amalgam of earth, air, fire and water.( so who is better tribe? Kabir ji asks Bahaman to prove he is better in SGGS Ji)

ਅਲਹ ਅਭੇਖ ਸੋਈ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਅਉ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਓਈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਬਨਾਉ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥੮੬॥
अलह अभेख सोई पुरान अउ कुरान ओई एक ही सरूप सभै एक ही बनाउ है ॥१६॥८६॥
Allah of Muslims and Abhekh (Guiseless) of Hindus are the same, the Puranas of Hindus and the holy Quran of the Muslims depict the same reality( The Lord); all have been created in the image of the same Lord and have the same formation. 16.86.

Continues

 

[pk70]

Also, for Guru jis to follow their tradition, it would not have neccesarily meant following caste system, and instead just respecting their linage and traditions, so of course they were above the filth of looking at people as higher or lower, but respect is different, and we should all respect the desicions and laws of parents and government. Gurus had to respect their families wishes and could not reject their duty(quot lion-price- jatinder Ji)

Why Guru Nanak didn’t follow all family traditions, he even didn’t prefer to live in his own house where Maya trade was in full circle. Guru Nanak unlike you and me, never gave in for any one tradition or ritual blindly. So don’t go there. Did Guru particularly instruct their followers to do family traditions or just speculation of yours is new tenant of Sikhi?

. Guru Nanak had to get married as it was his parents wished, and Guru ji showed respect towards his parents
Talk is not about parents wish, Guru Nanak didn’t accept many things said by his parents either.

. Guru Gobind Singh had to create Khalsa, to protect the socity and to protect dharam. Guru jis followed dharam. It was also their dharam to marry in their tradition,
Give me a single Gur Vaak from Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji or any Hukamnama of Guru jian where Guru ji supported your philosophy, I have no value what people say in context of Gurmat.
it would have been adharam for them to disobey their parents and family desicions. It is also adharam for us to disobey our own parents.
Why didGuru Nanak just follow his parents and make money as they wished?
Remember, many people follow adharam in this day and age, even the people that are called as religious, since it is the Kaliyuga/Kalijuga.
That is not what we are discussing
Guru jis were binded to their human bodies as long as they were in human form (when and if they were able to leave their bodies, then circumstances change of course).
Even being in their bonded body, Guru ji successfully guided the society to get rid of narrow illusions and see Him in all instead of falling for divisions created by a clever mind.
Also as citizens we have to follow the law of our countries.

Also, to into caste system. You and I know, that it is evident in gurbani, that Guru ji has respected the 4 varnas equally. They have spiritual equity.
You are openly distorting Guru Message, let’s see what Guru says. In the following, Guru ji addresses all the established castes, Guru ji is not saying that they are right( they were their already and were discriminated) followers should pick up “should be” message not what is mentioned as it was there.
Adi Guru Granth Sahib p747
ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉਸਾਝਾ॥
खत्री ब्राहमण सूद वैस उपदेसु चहु वरना कउ साझा ॥
Kẖaṯrī barāhmaṇ sūḏ vais upḏes cẖahu varnā ka▫o sājẖā.
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
What does it say? The Teaching equally given to established four castes. Why, because before, it was limited to Brahmin only. Read on the next Guru vaak, when the Lord, as per Guru ji, permeates in each and every being, what importance of these castes has? The following Guru Vaak negates the importance of high castes as the Lord permeates equally in all. Why a Guru follower should believe in Caste System?

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਉਧਰੈ ਸੋਕਲਿਮਹਿਘਟਿਘਟਿਨਾਨਕਮਾਝਾ॥੪॥੩॥੫੦॥
गुरमुखि नामु जपै उधरै सो कलि महि घटि घटि नानक माझा ॥४॥३॥५०॥
Gurmukẖ nām japai uḏẖrai so kal mėh gẖat gẖat Nānak mājẖā. ||4||3||50||
One who, as Gurmukh, chants the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is saved. In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, O Nanak, God is permeating the hearts of each and every being. ||4||3||50||

Also research and traditions show that these 4 varnas weren't really a system of hierarchy, and more of a way of generalising people of the 4 ways of their duties, where Brahmins would be people who were learned/gyanis, and kshatriya being the warriors, sometimes with people even being able to jump to a different varna.
Wow, look at the western society, they never had it and progressed better than the land where it was forced (still is thanks to people like you), it was just to exploit humans like slavery was justified. As civility progressed, it was looked upon very badly then. Unfortunately, some Sikhs are distorting Guru Message to prove Guru ji supports it when truth is, Guru criticizes it. Read Kabir ji and other Bhagatas of Low castes how they question it? Read Guru ji what they say about it
ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
सलोक मः १ ॥
Salok mėhlā 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

ਫਕੜ ਜਾਤੀ ਫਕੜੁ ਨਾਉ ॥
फकड़ जाती फकड़ु नाउ ॥
Fakaṛ jāṯī fakaṛ nā▫o.
Pride in social status is empty; pride in personal glory is useless.

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਇਕਾ ਛਾਉ ॥
सभना जीआ इका छाउ ॥
Sabẖnā jī▫ā ikā cẖẖā▫o.
The One Lord gives shade to all beings.

ਆਪਹੁ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਹਾਏ ॥
आपहु जे को भला कहाए ॥
Āphu je ko bẖalā kahā▫e.
You may call yourself good;
( slap on caste system believers)
ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਪਰੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਪਤਿ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਾਏ ॥੧॥ (SGGS Ji 83)
नानक ता परु जापै जा पति लेखै पाए ॥१॥
Nānak ṯā par jāpai jā paṯ lekẖai pā▫e. ||1||
O Nanak, this will only be known when your honor is approved in God's Account. ||1||
Bhai Gurdass has also gone into details of the different castes/tribes/jobs of the 4 varnas, in his vaaran.
Bhai Gurdas says Guru Nanak made four castes one. Just reread him please.

 

[lionprinceuk]

Lion-prince-jatinder ji
I am glad you have posted in complete, thanks. This very pauri tears apart your tribe theory in context of open minded progression. What does it say? Haven’t you got it? What is all after all (as addressed in paurii)? Those illusions and false claims about the entity that becomes part of soil it originates from. So what value they carry as per Guru Ji? None. All is one race that is human; rest is coined by rusted minds to create divisions to please illusionary thinking (to exploit others). It is the only one form, named by different way by you or me. You speculated on behalf of Guru Sahban, that is not fair to Guru jian. You do whatever pleases you or your family but don’t claim it was approved or supported by Guru jian as they ripped apart these illusions in a broad way in Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Reread the Pouri, it makes your comment laughable in context of Guru’s understanding of various divisions created by closed minds.

Not at all, Guru ji has described to show us to respect all the humans. However, it is common sense to also acknowledge and see all the differences. As you can see, we recognise people as sikhs and as khalsa. Also, if I was to use your viewpoint, then there is we would also not see muslims and hindus, and therefore not acknowledge this variety.

A sikh must be able to respect all the different types of cultures, panths, tribes etc. Society is multicultural. Even though we may all be human beings, we are still individuals, where one person thinks differently from the other. This difference in thinking and views isn't made into divide human beings, instead it is a good thing that encourages thinking. Lack of thinking just encourages fanaticism and terrorism.

If we wanted to be just one race only, then why would Guru ji make khalsa and fiht, when theMughals could have made us all one pure muslim race. But why have people who have thought of making humans into one race always been opposed and defeated, like Hitler and his one pure aryan race, the Mughals, the taliban, the british raj converting tribes and nations to christianity. This abrahamic mentlaity of belonging toone pure race is NOT mentality of Guru ji. There is difference between converting to one race, and between recognising all the humans as one, but at the same time acknowledging the variety and differences. Because, this is the respect sikhs should have. The khalsa protected these cultures and tribes from peoplelikemughals, who wanted us to become one pure race. I don;t happen to be kshatriya, but I respect this culture,and followGurus from khatri bakcground. We must learn to respect one anotherand each other's cultures and traditions, this is what we should learn from Guru ji. If we started having same one race conversion mentality as peoplelikemughals, how much respect would this be givin to the khalsa and shaheeds who fought against people who think this way?

 

[pk70]

Not at all, Guru ji has described to show us to respect all the humans. However, it is common sense to also acknowledge and see all the differences. As you can see, we recognise people as Sikhs and as khalsa. Also, if I was to use your viewpoint, then there is we would also not see muslims and hindus, and therefore not acknowledge this variety.(quote Lion-prince jatinder ji)

What is my point of view that stops respecting others, please elaborate it with example instead of assumptions

A Sikh must be able to respect all the different types of cultures, panths, tribes etc. Society is multicultural. Even though we may all be human beings, we are still individuals, where one person thinks differently from the other. This difference in thinking and views isn't made into divide human beings, instead it is a good thing that encourages thinking. Lack of thinking just encourages fanaticism and terrorism.
Well, most conflicts originate from complexes like superior complexes; Guru ji addresses that as illusions in their won words. Guru says this is the way divisions are seen but in all the same way Lord permeates, who don’t see or follow this, fall for creating conflicts that leads to terrorism. Division supporters eventually end of one of them.
Manas kee jaat sabh ek hee pehchanbo, doesn’t it say all humans belong to one race and there is no other race. It is not difficult to understand, I think. You have no support from Gurbani in favor of Caste system, no support from any Guru-writing in other form. What you are doing is simply attaching your false belief to Guru ji unnecessarily. As I told, do as you wish or please you, its none of my business, for God’s sake, leave Guru ji out of this filthy concept.

If we wanted to be just one race only, then why would Guru ji make khalsa and fiht, when theMughals could have made us all one pure muslim race
Why there were Punj Pyaras from different castes and accepted as part of one commune instead of keeping that ugly thing of castes as barrier? Khalsa was created to unite Sikhs not to divide as caste system does and you support it under the name of Sikhism.

. But why have people who have thought of making humans into one race always been opposed and defeated,
Guru ji was not, he was not defeated actually betrayed on the basis of false oaths. Defeat is when other side takes over in fair fight. Give examples that were defeated while making society free from divisions? The white man, having no caste system, defeated most of the world; caste system didn’t help others in that case.
like Hitler and his one pure aryan race
He was defeated just because of opposite stand he took, that is what I am talking about about. His race or your assumed caste superiority is defined by Guru as nothing but useless (Guru Nanak SGGS Ji 83)
, the Mughals, the taliban, the british raj converting tribes and nations to christianity. This abrahamic mentlaity of belonging toone pure race is NOT mentality of Guru ji.
Guru ji stood against tyranny, he never harbored limited thinking we today boast about. That was another reason, when Sikh regime came into existence, first time people breathed secularity, thanks to Guru Teachings and the Sikhs who kept it intact unlike today’s those Sikhs who boast about caste and religious superiority.
There is difference between converting to one race, and between recognising all the humans as one, but at the same time acknowledging the variety and differences. Because, this is the respect Sikhs should have
You side with caste system, you side with the division of the society, regardless your high beating drums of respecting all, you become an aid to disrupt harmony of the society. Guru ji paid dearly just to stand against cast system and idol worshiping. Most of the Hills Rajas were not happy with the Guru ji because he treated all castes of people equally as human being, a creation of the Lord, people from low castes were leaders (Punj Pyaras, Remember?)Here are now his followers negating his efforts just in the name of false and “USELESS’ pride as said by Guru Nanak. Why Guru ji prefers the company of” lower of the lowers”?

The khalsa protected these cultures and tribes from peoplelikemughals, who wanted us to become one pure race.
They didn’t want to make one race; they wanted to illuminate all other faiths, period. There is different between one race concept and one religion concept. Race was not their concern; it was the other religions that bothered them most.
I don;t happen to be kshatriya, but I respect this culture,and followGurus from khatri bakcground.
They never wore those so called names with their names, neither any Punj Pyaras did, obviously it was useless for them. This disease started when poison of caste superiority was put in the minds of some Sikhs. Gurus were way above these narrow holes people were falling in.
We must learn to respect one anotherand each other's cultures and traditions, this is what we should learn from Guru ji.
Where did I say don’t do it? I am actually saying that all these divisional illusions create disrespect for others. If you are asking me to respect Caste system, its to my foot because Guru ji says its totally useless.
If we started having same one race conversion mentality as peoplelikemughals, how much respect would this be givin to the khalsa and shaheeds who fought against people who think this way?
What are you trying to say? If we stop believing in caste system we will not be able to respect Khalsa and Shaheed? Is it your point? If your answer is yes, you do not know what you are talking about. There are martyrs in casteless society, they are well respected. Khalsa’s first members were from low castes and they were respected equally to the other members coming from those so called “khari or kashatrya or whatever. Sikhi is pious enough to stay above “mannu created illusions”, in it, there is no place for caste system, if some create such illusions, they have failed what Guru ji preached over centuries with so many sacrifices. I feelsorry for such individuals.
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[lionprinceuk]

excuse me pk70,but u have accused me of supporting caste system in many parts of your post, please show me where I have done this?

I do not support any caste system hierarchy,please show jme where I have done this, thanks...

I have not associated guru ji with caste system and haven't used gurbani to support caste system either,so please do not make it look like I have!!

 

[pk70]

excuse me pk70,but u have accused me of supporting caste system in many parts of your post, please show me where I have done this?

I do not support any caste system hierarchy,please show jme where I have done this,
thanks...


Lion-prince-jatinder ji,
If we go back, I just pointed out from your post that whatever you want to do, its OK but do not bring Guru ji in context of blind traditions etc because they stood against many of them. Direct Teachings of Guru addresses many traditions of families which became cancer for the society. I also explained that why and how Guru ji married is not a base to preach others. The openness today Sikhs enjoy is only because of Guru Sahibaan otherwise we were packed and sealed in horrible dogma. I explained the reason behind their marriage. Our Guru is Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji’s universal appeal is so vast that the little circles some people have created around them become insignificant before Guru Teachings.
Here is the story
I pointed out
I respect your opinion; please do not speculate on what Guru Ji couldn't have done. Basing on Bachittar Natak, please do not negate the purpose of Khalsa. Same Guru also says" Manas kee jaat sabh ek hee pehchanove(close to it). In a society deeply drowned in castye system, how a low class family could have dared to offer a daughter for the Guru bridegroom when so called Kashattryas were doing all the spoon feeding to marry off their daughters in Guru ghar? Ponder over it before concluding your judgment on Guru's marriages. Guru Sahiban were a way above this filth(quote pk70).

You came up with a whole quote from Dasam Granth which supports what I said actually. Then you quoted Gurbani as if it also supported caste system because there is a mention of it. Here it is

Also, to into caste system. You and I know, that it is evident in gurbani, that Guru ji has respected the 4 varnas equally. They have spiritual equity.


Adi Guru Granth Sahib p747
ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
खत्री ब्राहमण सूद वैस उपदेसु चहु वरना कउ साझा ॥
Kẖaṯrī barāhmaṇ sūḏ vais upḏes cẖahu varnā ka▫o sājẖā.
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.

Now look at what you have quoted in support of your stand. You say Guru ji respected four Varnas equally, do you believe Guru ji believed in four Varnas or you are saying they didn’t care about four varnas and held them equal? If you just said” Guru ji respected all people of all Varnas equally, that means Guru ji didn’t treat them as the society of that time did. If you say that (as obvious from your post) Guru respected four varnas as their existence, then it is problem because Guru ji didn’t approve their existence as fair practices.

Then you justify caste system in a peculiar way all of a sudden.

Also research and traditions show that these 4 varnas weren't really a system of hierarchy, and more of a way of generalising people of the 4 ways of their duties, where Brahmins would be people who were learned/gyanis, and kshatriya being the warriors, sometimes with people even being able to jump to a different varna.
Bhai Gurdass has also gone into details of the different castes/tribes/jobs of the 4 varnas, in his vaaran.

You keep on the debating; may I ask why if you do not support it? I said nothing particularly about you before but when you kept it by bringing examples of Guru ji marriages and some quotes from Dasam Granth to prove Guru ji said in favor of them or some thing to that point. What you have from Guru ji is their marrying in Kashattya family and you say Guru ji did it to please and respect their families. Janeo ceremony was considered a vital one, Guru ji refused, he literally insulted his father. Why didn’t he go along with his father just for the sake of respect you talk about? Guru ji stood against many family traditions, if they didn’t, there would have been no Sikh. I have to tell you that if you believe in is fine with me but this is not what Guru ji preaches.


I have not associated guru ji with caste system and haven't used gurbani to support caste system either,so please do not make it look like I have!!

If you do not believe in it, and follow strictly how Guru ji takes caste system “an illusion and useless” please forgive me for any word that could have hurt you:shy:

 

[lionprinceuk]

No I have not justified a caste system hierachy.

However, I do believe Guru ji acknowledged the varnas and traditions AND also gave respect to them equally. And even Guru Gobind Singh said:

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib
ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥
सवैया ॥
SWAYYA

ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਕੋ ਪੂਤ ਹੌ ਬਾਮਨ ਕੋ ਨਹਿ ਕੈ ਤਪੁ ਆਵਤ ਹੈ ਜੁ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਅਰੁ ਅਉਰ ਜੰਜਾਰ ਜਿਤੋ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਕੋ ਤੁਹਿ ਤਿਆਗ ਕਹਾ ਚਿਤ ਤਾ ਮੈ ਧਰੋ ॥
छत्री को पूत हौ बामन को नहि कै तपु आवत है जु करो ॥ अरु अउर जंजार जितो ग्रहि को तुहि तिआग कहा चित ता मै धरो ॥
I am the son of a Kshatriya and not of a Brahmin who may instruct for performing severe austerities; how can I absorb myself in the embarrassments of the world by leaving you;

ਅਬ ਰੀਝ ਕੈ ਦੇਹੁ ਵਹੈ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਜੋਊ ਹਉ ਬਿਨਤੀ ਕਰ ਜੋਰ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਜਬ ਆਉ ਕੀ ਅਉਧ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਬਨੈ ਅਤਿਹੀ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਜੂਝ ਮਰੋ ॥੨੪੮੯॥
अब रीझ कै देहु वहै हम कउ जोऊ हउ बिनती कर जोर करो ॥ जब आउ की अउध निदान बनै अतिही रन मै तब जूझ मरो ॥२४८९॥
Whatever request I am making with my folded hands, O Lord ! kindly be graceful and bestow this boon on me that when ever my end comes, then I may die fighting in the battlefield.2489.

This however does not mean I am promoting a caste system, but I am however respecting these 4 traditions. Again, the fact that my posts actually promote caste system is unproven.

Again, also I have red in some places that Guru Nanak didn't accept janeoo, and in some places that they did. However, I and some others haven't found concrete source of rejecting the janeoo. This is why I never use the janeoo argument these days.

Again you also mentioned western society in one of your posts before, and in uk a class system was followed in UK in the victorian era, where high and low class people lived differently separetly, and had different habits, morals, values, traditions, and just different ways of thinking, that also conflicted with each other. Now, although the western society has forgotten these classes, they have also dropped down into hedonism, and I would say they have taken more of the values and morals that were associated with the victorian lower classes, and are forgetting those values/morals that made people respectable.

Again, even though we may illusions and maya, we are still different individuals, and we must be able to acknowledge and respect this.

 

[pk70]

No I have not justified a caste system hierachy.( Quote Lion-price-jatinder ji)
Why quotes from only Dasamgranth are coming then? To prove what? Dasamgranth was not even considered a guiding light by Tenth Master himself
However, I do believe Guru ji acknowledged the varnas and traditions AND also gave respect to them equally. And even Guru Gobind Singh said:
Sri Dasam Granth Sahib
ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਕੋ ਪੂਤ ਹੌ ਬਾਮਨ ਕੋ ਨਹਿ ਕੈ ਤਪੁ ਆਵਤ ਹੈ ਜੁ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਅਰੁ ਅਉਰ ਜੰਜਾਰ ਜਿਤੋ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਕੋ ਤੁਹਿ ਤਿਆਗ ਕਹਾ ਚਿਤ ਤਾ ਮੈ ਧਰੋ ॥
I am the son of a Kshatriya and not of a Brahmin who may instruct for performing severe austerities; how can I absorb myself in the embarrassments of the world by leaving you;
Dasam Granth is wrapped in controversy as obviously it might have been doctored by some one, Sree Guru Granth Sahib is not, so we as Sikhs take guidance from Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji and that is the Hukam of Tenth Nanak . To prove wrong Guru Nanak’s statement that caste is useless (quote already given) is simply disobeying both Guru Sahiban.
This however does not mean I am promoting a caste system, but I am however respecting these 4 traditions.
If you acknowledge it to believe in it, respecting aspect is hypocritical gesture, considering others belonging to lower class and then claiming to be respectful to others is pretty much good show of hypocrisy. My older brother used to use clan name to prove others that he was superior because he belonged to Hari Singh Nalwa clan. I gathered the courage to face him one day “how can you be superior to others by having this lame word with your name?’ He answered “It is coming from a brave warrior” I said " our neighbors have the same clan name but they are known as jackals of the village, what this name means to them?” Being older, he shut me up without any reasoning. Some people grab such things to please their own minds. Guru Nanak openly rejects it and you dare to say Guru ji acknowledges it. Tenth Master was not different from the first one, how come first Nanak rejects it and tenth Master acknowledges it rather boasts about it.Some of the punj pyaras were also from so called low class, why Guru ji didnt prefer Khatri or kashattrya or whatever to them? Dont you get it? Guru Sahiban were above boasting, pride, revenge, anger and greed etc; they proved it through their living. There is no evidence otherwise.
Again, the fact that my posts actually promote caste system is unproven.
No, you are still promoting it in the name Dasamgranth quote and speaking on behalf of Guru ji that they acknowledged it. They never did. Gurbani says and Bhai Gurdas ji believes in it, here is he
Line 3 ਚਾਰੇ ਪੈਰ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਨੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ।
chaaray pair dharam day chaari varani iku varanu karaaiaa|
Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).

That is the establishment of Guru Nanak and you guys are trying to take away from him?


CONTINUES

 

[pk70]

Again, also I have red in some places that Guru Nanak didn't accept janeoo, and in some places that they did. However, I and some others haven't found concrete source of rejecting the janeoo. This is why I never use the janeoo argument these days.(quote Lion-prince-jatinder ji)
What is your source? Gurbani openly states about the rejection of the Janeo and gives new meaning what actually Janeo should be. I do not accept hearsay or hearsay like stories. Here is a concrete source, if “main na mano” exists, what Guru ji can do?
SGGS JI 471
ਦਇਆ ਕਪਾਹ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸੂਤੁ ਜਤੁ ਗੰਢੀ ਸਤੁ ਵਟੁ ॥ (what we actually need)
Ḏa▫i▫ā kapāh sanṯokẖ sūṯ jaṯ gandẖī saṯ vat.
Make compassion the cotton, contentment the thread, modesty the knot and truth the twist. ( This is what Guru likes not the thread)
ਏਹੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਹਈ ਤ ਪਾਡੇ ਘਤੁ ॥
Ėhu jane▫ū jī▫a kā ha▫ī ṯa pāde gẖaṯ.
This is the sacred thread of the soul; if you have it, then go ahead and put it on me. (. ( This is what Guru likes not the thread)
ਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਤੁਟੈ ਨ ਮਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਜਲੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ (why? It goes with the soul)
Nā ehu ṯutai nā mal lagai nā ehu jalai na jā▫e.
It does not break, it cannot be soiled by filth, it cannot be burnt, or lost.
ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਮਾਣਸ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜੋ ਗਲਿ ਚਲੇ ਪਾਇ ॥ ( Praise of those who wear such kind not the thread-janeo, isn’t it enough?)
Ḏẖan so māṇas nānkā jo gal cẖale pā▫e.
Blessed are those mortal beings, O Nanak, who wear such a thread around their necks.
ਚਉਕੜਿ ਮੁਲਿ ਅਣਾਇਆ ਬਹਿ ਚਉਕੈ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
ẖa▫ukaṛ mul aṇā▫i▫ā bahi cẖa▫ukai pā▫i▫ā.
You buy the thread for a few shells, and seated in your enclosure, you put it on.

ਸਿਖਾ ਕੰਨਿ ਚੜਾਈਆ ਗੁਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਥਿਆ ॥
Sikẖā kann cẖaṛā▫ī▫ā gur barāhmaṇ thi▫ā.
Whispering instructions into others' ears, the Brahmin becomes a guru.
ਓਹੁ ਮੁਆ ਓਹੁ ਝੜਿ ਪਇਆ ਵੇਤਗਾ ਗਇਆ ॥੧॥ ( the end of so called Janeo in Guru ji’s eyes)
Oh mu▫ā oh jẖaṛ pa▫i▫ā veṯgā ga▫i▫ā. ||1||
But he dies, and the sacred thread falls away, and the soul departs without it. ||1||


The janeo that gets burn with the body is useless as per Guru ji

Again you also mentioned western society in one of your posts before, and in uk a class system was followed in UK in the victorian era, where high and low class people lived differently separetly, and had different habits, morals, values, traditions, and just different ways of thinking, that also conflicted with each other.
Now, although the western society has forgotten these classes, they have also dropped down into hedonism, and I would say they have taken more of the values and morals that were associated with the victorian lower classes, and are forgetting those values/morals that made people respectable.
There is difference between caste system and class. You should know that class is usually based on economical situations but caste system runs deep in blood line, an exploitation never to end.
Again, even though we may illusions and maya, we are still different individuals, and we must be able to acknowledge and respect this
I started my post with” I respect your views…” so now what are you trying to say?
Well, I do not acknowledge and accept caste system or clan illusions as Guru ji didn’t by calling them “useless” and illusionary concepts. I do not speculate on Guru ji’s behalf to support my assumptions ever to negate their hard work they did to clean some filth of the society. There is no substance left to debate it. So enjoy your traditions and convictions, no one is bothered by them. My only humble supplication is that keep Guru Sahiban out of it.

 

[lionprinceuk]

PL70 ji, since I more believe and respect the purataan traditional sikhi I do not find Dasam Granth contraversial compared to theanti DasdamGranth views nurtured under the british raaj. The Bir Rass bani of Dasam Granth and Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib is very important for warrior khalsa.

Since the akali nihang Khalsa also keeps Dasam Granth parkash it is mostly sikhs that are away from traditions that stir the commonfolk to become paranoid to scriptures and historical artifacts. Since I totally believe in Guru Gobind Singh's bani, I would then also believe in it. I am not one to question Guru ji, and can only question peoples' portrayal of Guru ji.

Again, when Guru Gobind Singh is talking about being kshatriya, he is not proving Guru Nanak Dev ji's statement wrong. Following warrior tradition is not promoting inequality. In fact anyone becoming part of khalsa fauj was becoming a kshatriya or warrior. Kshatriya is term for warrior, but in the society it has become just a caste, but back in the days these things were traditions of what people done. And of course, Guru ji wasn;t narrowing down being a warrior into caste.

In Sarbloh Granth , Guru Gobind Sing says:
"Khalsa is my caste and dignity. From the Khalsa I was born."

So Guru ji again saying it as a caste, but it doesn't mean it is contradicting what Guru Nanak says. Because we have to look at the true meaning of things, the literal meaning and the spiritual meaning. It is common sense to see humanity as individuals and groups, but from Guru Nanak's teaching we need to use common sense and see we shouldn't become too attached to these things, and not become absrobed into them, because they are illusions and maya. However, it would no be sensible to deny the groups of people around us. Sometimes groups of people have to be recognised, such as the enemy in the fight, such as king's army, the mughal army, the British invaders' army, the hill raja. Sometimes it is common sense to recognise groups. How else would we recognise all the different traditions and beliefs to people if we are not even prepared to recognise people being associated with them? Is sikhi not attributed to a group of people. If people follow sikh panth, are they not grouped as people who do such? Is Guru ji's khalsa not recognised as a group or army of ascetic warriors, the singhs. When singhs serve in this army,they do become like one castem but afterwaards they have to return to their society and families and follow these maryadas and laws, except of course those who choose to stay and live with the khalsa fauj.

Again it is also completely false to assume the sterotype that a acknolwedging a varna, or following its traditions is considering others to be lower class.Therefore it is not hypocrisy, how is just following tradition and culture putting down others, it is nothing but a common sterotype, that is unfortunatel;y practised by a lot of people.I know people are khatris and brahmins that do not consider others as lower class and would even be prepared tomarry them. Please explain to me how these people are hypocrites in just being Brahmuins and khatris?

Also Guru Nanak explains about it, but I still do not see how Guru ji point blank rejects these traditions, but I am completely open to believe that Guru ji rejects a hierarchical caste system. Again I think it also depends on how one views their interpretations of bani, everyone has their own views.

Again Guru Gobind Singh hasn't "boasted", you need to read again what context Guru ji is using.They are showing that, they are kshatrirya or warrior, and not like brahmins who are not. Remember, Guru Gobind Singh jis bani wasmore for battlefield. So it would be natural to behave like a warrior who fights than a person who is just praying, who willnot be useful in that certain time in need. And being from Sodhi clan, he would also be son of kshatriya, since Guru Tegh bahadur was also Sodhi kshatriya,, but also a warrior regardless, they even obtained the name Tegh Bahadur becuase of their warrior feats.

Again, it doesn't matter to Guru ji if panj piarey were not kshatriya, but after becoming khalsa, they became warriors. Remember, in the indian society, one who became warrior used to automtically become kshatriya. You can say, kshatriya is a term for warrior. But there is difference between people who actually physically are warrior, and people who just belong to a clan that is associated with such, and has such only claim to being kshatriya because of their ancestory. Again, guru ji actually made kshatriya or warriors, by nature and not by name.

And I do get it, saying that one is from kshatriya does not mean boasting, pride, revenge, anger and greed; I have not felt this from most people who have told me that they are khatris. Very Unfortunately,these days there are people who boast about being a singh, sikh or amrit-dhari in the same vein.

Again, you have not shown me how the quote of being kshatriya is promoting caste system, or how one being or claiming to be kshatriya/khatri is promoting caste system? to me this is just a stereotype that anyone belonging toa group is following a caste system!

And about the janeoo, yes, Guru ji has described the uselessness of teh thread,but still doesn'tprove if he did or didn;t wear, since I think he would have been forced to by parents regradless, but I do not know,and we need more historical evidence. Again, wearing or not wearing, does not really do anything to a person, so we do not need to go too deep into the matter. But it is definetly clear what guru ji has said about these things in the pauri tyou posted staring with:
ਦਇਆ ਕਪਾਹ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸੂਤੁ ਜਤੁ ਗੰਢੀ ਸਤੁ ਵਟੁ ॥
Ḏa▫i▫ā kapāh sanṯokẖ sūṯ jaṯ gandẖī saṯ vat.
Make compassion the cotton, contentment the thread, modesty the knot and truth the twist

But we must remember, there is difference between rejecting and forcing people to do something.
So Guru Nanak may not have seen real use in the thread. He may even not have worn it.But he would never have forced all of society to stop wearing it, or even go on and on about it.

You would probably agree with me there is no reason to go on and on about caste, either for or against. However, there is also much of this preaching where people are told they are following a caste system, and then they are attacked for belonging to a tribe, alot of this hatefull preaching is being done in panth these days, especially by traditionaless youth. And unfortunately, this provokes arguments about caste.

I never used to bother about my tribe, I am from jatt background. It was only when people started attacking people for just mentioning this, and nothing more, that there was no choiuce but to defend ourselves.There is much of this on the net and otherplaces. If people cannot respect ones background then how do they call themselves sikhs? Also accusing people of folowing a caste system, I do not agree with this. In fact, I did not even know what caste system was until some sikhs preached it to me about the 4 varnas. In fact many people who are accused of following caste system actually have no idea about the 4 varnas, yet they are still accused!?!
OF course, it is importnat to follow traditions, it is not a very nice sight to see what is happening to traditionaless people such as what is happening in the west. No traditions to maintain the values and morals. People have also rejected sikh traditions and therefore have gone distant from the tradirtion of DasamGranth, and even attack the khalsa traditions practised by nihangs. Lack of tradition is what is causing different sikhi to be taught to Guru ji's sikhi. Without traditions,people point at gurbani and say it is not guru jis' bani, and question guru ji.

 

[pk70]

PL70 ji, since I more believe and respect the purataan traditional Sikhi I do not find Dasam Granth contraversial compared to theanti DasdamGranth views nurtured under the british raaj. The Bir Rass bani of Dasam Granth and Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib is very important for warrior khalsa.
Lion-prince-jatinder Ji,
You have a right to believe in as I have the right to reject its doctored version in context of Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is a different topic and I do not want to discuss it further.

Since the akali nihang Khalsa also keeps Dasam Granth parkash it is mostly Sikhs that are away from traditions that stir the commonfolk to become paranoid to scriptures and historical artifacts. Since I totally believe in Guru Gobind Singh's bani, I would then also believe in it. I am not one to question Guru ji, and can only question peoples' portrayal of Guru ji.
Guru Gobind Singh ji was not different than Guru Nanak, he wouldn’t write a single line that goes against Guru Nanak, so no one is portraying Guru ji otherwise except those who fall for baits thrown by others.
Again, when Guru Gobind Singh is talking about being kshatriya, he is not proving Guru Nanak Dev ji's statement wrong.
The author, actually is boasting about being part of that clan, truth is this, Guru ji never penned it, never used clan name with him and allowed Khalsa to use clan with their names. Such was the importance he gave to clans.
Following warrior tradition is not promoting inequality
You must understand from where it started, Sixth Nanak made warriors out of low class people, he never felt to boast about his clan either. Warrior tradition was changed by making warrior out of low class by Sixth Nanak, he didn’t care about this tradition, why Tenth Nanak would do
. In fact anyone becoming part of khalsa fauj was becoming a kshatriya or warrior. Kshatriya is term for warrior, but in the society it has become just a caste, but back in the days these things were traditions of what people done. And of course, Guru ji wasn;t narrowing down being a warrior into caste.
The people who died fighting for Sixth Nanak, were not only from so called kashatry etc but people from low class too, why this warrior tradition was given promotion all of a sudden during Tenth Nanak? It is just a lie. Its simply a promotion of clans and I take it as useless, some one tried to color sikhs back into caste system
In Sarbloh Granth , Guru Gobind Sing says:
"Khalsa is my caste and dignity. From the Khalsa I was born."
It is not our Guru, there is lot of literature like this, it is not equal to Guru Granth Sahib ji to guide us.

So Guru ji again saying it as a caste, but it doesn't mean it is contradicting what Guru Nanak says. Because we have to look at the true meaning of things, the literal meaning and the spiritual meaning
Guru Nanak says “it is useless” as per your quotes,the author feels proud of it( I don’t believe Guru wrote it) Isn't it contradictory?

. It is common sense to see humanity as individuals and groups, but from Guru Nanak's teaching we need to use common sense and see we shouldn't become too attached to these things, and not become absrobed into them, because they are illusions and maya.
Well in that quote the author boasts about it, isn’t it attachment, or is there other common sense I cannot think of it?
However, it would no be sensible to deny the groups of people around us. Sometimes groups of people have to be recognised, such as the enemy in the fight, such as king's army, the mughal army, the British invaders' army, the hill raja. Sometimes it is common sense to recognise groups.
Look you are mixing things up. I told you, I respect your views, that is enough in case of others who believe in it, my whole stress is that keep Guru ji out of this filth.
How else would we recognise all the different traditions and beliefs to people if we are not even prepared to recognise people being associated with them? Is Sikhi not attributed to a group of people. If people follow Sikh panth, are they not grouped as people who do such? Is Guru ji's khalsa not recognised as a group or army of ascetic warriors, the singhs. When singhs serve in this army,they do become like one castem but afterwaards they have to return to their society and families and follow these maryadas and laws, except of course those who choose to stay and live with the khalsa fauj.
I am failed to comprehend your issue, its totally beyond what I started with. Caste system is useless as per Guru ji, who want to keep it, so it be but they have no support from Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am not worried who is a Sikh and who is not. What group is more Sikh and which one is less. I literally do not pay attention. Sikhi is personal journey towards the Lord where these illusions weigh zero as per Guru ji.
Again it is also completely false to assume the sterotype that a acknolwedging a varna, or following its traditions is considering others to be lower class.Therefore it is not hypocrisy, how is just following tradition and culture putting down others, it is nothing but a common sterotype, that is unfortunatel;y practised by a lot of people.I know people are khatris and brahmins that do not consider others as lower class and would even be prepared tomarry them. Please explain to me how these people are hypocrites in just being Brahmuins and khatris?
A belief, claims to be belonged to high class as per history, itself negates the equality of humans, by mere saying “I respect others” is contrary to the belief. I felt backward in thinking when my brother boasted of the clan as stated earlier. All said is hypocrisy if it differs from living to its merits.
Also Guru Nanak explains about it, but I still do not see how Guru ji point blank rejects these traditions, but I am completely open to believe that Guru ji rejects a hierarchical caste system. Again I think it also depends on how one views their interpretations of bani, everyone has their own views.
Kindly interpret in your way same Guru Shabad, I am ready to learn, by the way interpretation of Gurbani was not done by me.
Again Guru Gobind Singh hasn't "boasted", you need to read again what context Guru ji is using.They are showing that, they are kshatrirya or warrior, and not like brahmins who are not.
Are you saying Brahmins cannot fight? Only Kashatrya could. Where were they when invaders took over India from them? There is nothing in them except boasting, the History proves it.
Remember, Guru Gobind Singh jis bani wasmore for battlefield. So it would be natural to behave like a warrior who fights than a person who is just praying, who willnot be useful in that certain time in need. And being from Sodhi clan, he would also be son of kshatriya, since Guru Tegh bahadur was also Sodhi kshatriya,, but also a warrior regardless, they even obtained the name Tegh Bahadur becuase of their warrior feats.
There were others too who were fierce warriors but not from Sodhi clan but lower class. There were those Sodhis who betrayed Guru Ghar. Where do you want to go. Come on.
Again, it doesn't matter to Guru ji if panj piarey were not kshatriya, but after becoming khalsa, they became warriors.
Well according to Caste system they still belonged to low class not to warrior clan you have been advocating. This alone proves my point
Remember, in the indian society, one who became warrior used to automtically become kshatriya. You can say, kshatriya is a term for warrior. But there is difference between people who actually physically are warrior, and people who just belong to a clan that is associated with such, and has such only claim to being kshatriya because of their ancestory. Again, Guru ji actually made kshatriya or warriors, by nature and not by name.
Wow now you are on my side.
Again, you have not shown me how the quote of being kshatriya is promoting caste system, or how one being or claiming to be kshatriya/khatri is promoting caste system? to me this is just a stereotype that anyone belonging toa group is following a caste system!
I explained it, go and read it, this time carefully, even in this post you are still doing the same thing in different way. I am done.
And about the janeoo, yes, Guru ji has described the uselessness of teh thread,but still doesn'tprove if he did or didn;t wear, since I think he would have been forced to by parents regradless, but I do not know,and we need more historical evidence.
I wrote earlier, if “main a mannu” exist, no body can help.
Again, wearing or not wearing, does not really do anything to a person, so we do not need to go too deep into the matter. But it is definetly clear what Guru ji has said about these things
Guru ji was the last person to close eyes and follow useless rituals, that is for sure, why? If he did, how could he convince others?
So Guru Nanak may not have seen real use in the thread. He may even not have worn it.But he would never have forced all of society to stop wearing it, or even go on and on about it.
I just cannot understand what do want to say here?
I never used to bother about my tribe, I am from jatt background. It was only when people started attacking people for just mentioning this, and nothing more, that there was no choiuce but to defend ourselves.There is much of this on the net and otherplaces.
In my university years, I faced such people, they declared I might be from low class but they could never make me mention the clan my brother boasted about. Why? I was convinced by the Guru that it was all wrong.
OF course, it is importnat to follow traditions, it is not a very nice sight to see what is happening to traditionaless people such as what is happening in the west. No traditions to maintain the values and morals
I have seen people with tradition having no moral, excuses are excuses.
. People have also rejected Sikh traditions and therefore have gone distant from the tradirtion of DasamGranth, and even attack the khalsa traditions practised by nihangs.
I started studying Sree Granth Sahib Ji, still am struggling hard to live accordingly, why would I mitigate my efforts by going to the literature which not recommended by Tenth Master.
Lack of tradition is what is causing different Sikhi to be taught to Guru ji's Sikhi. Without traditions,people point at gurbani and say it is not Guru jis' bani, and question Guru ji.
You stay on good path of traditions. Isn’t it enough if we can take responsibility of ourselves only? Again, last time, enjoy your convictions and traditions but please keep Guru Sahiban out of this thing.

 

[lionprinceuk]

ok then,I have my views and you have yours, I still do not believeI have mixed Guru ji into following caste system and social statuses. Remember that, even though Guru Nanak had followers in Baghdad, they were still muslims, they had not left their previous majab. So there were/are stillmuslims sikh and hindu sikhs like ninakhshais and nanakpanthis. Similarly, there are Buddha dharmi followers of Guru Nanak, where they see Guru ji as Lama, and these followers even come to Harmandir Sahib I believe annually. Guru Nanak has not asked his followers to especially join anything to follow him, anyone is allowed to follow Guru ji, and they don;t need to leave any of their duties or cultures.

And I think, for the context of brahmins, as in the ones you see just not doing anything except praying or preaching;these are the ones who would not be able to fight,, thosewho do not practise the martial arts. Same things can be said about many singhs these days, they have gone towards ritual side, but do not have the warrior maryada, and the kirpans worn by them could not be utilised.

And also I am not saying Guru Nanak followed the rituals, but there is difference in not following and avoiding. As in we may not agree with some laws of a country,but sometimes we still have to obey. For example, wearing a smaller kirpaan in countries. We are not allowed to make gurdwara in some arab countries. So in general, theres difference between questioning a society or law, and in disobeying a society or family. And Janeoo,is just something very minor, althougfh maybe it was seen as something major by the people?!?!

About bani what I am saying is people have their own way of viewing what is said in bani.

Also, I also have seen people who have associated people who don't believe in their own tribe or caste to a certain few castes. But then, even with my own eyes, including on the net, I have seen the preaching against caste, and also the attacking of people who follow caste, coming from certain castes, the majority coming from one caste that forms alot of sikhs. I shall be nameless of which tribe. I have no need to act like them.

Anyway, as long as there is respect forpeople, and people are treated with equity, then theres noproblem, of course this is not the case. The other problem is when the people who don't follow caste are the ones who actually discriminate between people, such as discrimination againsi non-sikhs, non-amrit-dharis, monay, even as far as discrimination against people that aren;t in their "jatha" organisation, and ironically, discrimination of people who are alleged to follow caste. I think the inequality and discrimination goes beyond those who just follow "caste", people need to respect each other, this is what we can learn from Guru ji

 

[pk70]

ok then,I have my views and you have yours, I still do not believeI have mixed Guru ji into following caste system and social statuses. Remember that, even though Guru Nanak had followers in Baghdad, they were still muslims, they had not left their previous majab. So there were/are stillmuslims sikh and hindu sikhs like ninakhshais and nanakpanthis. Similarly, there are Buddha dharmi followers of Guru Nanak, where they see Guru ji as Lama, and these followers even come to Harmandir Sahib I believe annually. Guru Nanak has not asked his followers to especially join anything to follow him, anyone is allowed to follow Guru ji, and they don;t need to leave any of their duties or cultures.

And I think, for the context of brahmins, as in the ones you see just not doing anything except praying or preaching;these are the ones who would not be able to fight,, thosewho do not practise the martial arts. Same things can be said about many singhs these days, they have gone towards ritual side, but do not have the warrior maryada, and the kirpans worn by them could not be utilised.

And also I am not saying Guru Nanak followed the rituals, but there is difference in not following and avoiding. As in we may not agree with some laws of a country,but sometimes we still have to obey. For example, wearing a smaller kirpaan in countries. We are not allowed to make gurdwara in some arab countries. So in general, theres difference between questioning a society or law, and in disobeying a society or family. And Janeoo,is just something very minor, althougfh maybe it was seen as something major by the people?!?!

About bani what I am saying is people have their own way of viewing what is said in bani.

Also, I also have seen people who have associated people who don't believe in their own tribe or caste to a certain few castes. But then, even with my own eyes, including on the net, I have seen the preaching against caste, and also the attacking of people who follow caste, coming from certain castes, the majority coming from one caste that forms alot of sikhs. I shall be nameless of which tribe. I have no need to act like them.

Anyway, as long as there is respect forpeople, and people are treated with equity, then theres noproblem, of course this is not the case. The other problem is when the people who don't follow caste are the ones who actually discriminate between people, such as discrimination againsi non-sikhs, non-amrit-dharis, monay, even as far as discrimination against people that aren;t in their "jatha" organisation, and ironically, discrimination of people who are alleged to follow caste. I think the inequality and discrimination goes beyond those who just follow "caste", people need to respect each other, this is what we can learn from Guru ji

Pion-prince-jatinder ji
I would rather seek Guru refuge than continuing on it, enjoy the following Guru Bachan

ਪਉੜੀ ॥[
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਮੋਹ ਠਗਉਲੀ ਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਖੁਆਇਆ ॥ ਤਿਸਨਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੈ ਨਹ ਤਿਪਤੈ ਭੁਖਾ ਤਿਹਾਇਆ ॥ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਆਇਆ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੋਹੁ ਨ ਤੁਟਈ ਸਭਿ ਥਕੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਸੁਖਿ ਰਜਾ ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਇਆ ॥ ਕੁਲੁ ਉਧਾਰੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਧੰਨੁ ਜਣੇਦੀ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਸੋਭਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ (SGGS 139)
Pa▫oṛī.
Ŧuḏẖ āpe jagaṯ upā▫e kai ṯuḏẖ āpe ḏẖanḏẖai lā▫i▫ā. Moh ṯẖag▫ulī pā▫e kai ṯuḏẖ āphu jagaṯ kẖu▫ā▫i▫ā. Ŧisnā anḏar agan hai nah ṯipṯai bẖukẖā ṯihā▫i▫ā. Sahsā ih sansār hai mar jammai ā▫i▫ā jā▫i▫ā. Bin saṯgur moh na ṯut▫ī sabẖ thake karam kamā▫i▫ā. Gurmaṯī nām ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai sukẖ rajā jā ṯuḏẖ bẖā▫i▫ā. Kul uḏẖāre āpṇā ḏẖan jaṇeḏī mā▫i▫ā. Sobẖā suraṯ suhāvaṇī jin har seṯī cẖiṯ lā▫i▫ā. ||2||

Pauri.
Thou Thyself created the world and Thou Thyself put it to work. Giving to eat the intoxicating herb of worldly love, Thou Thyself hast led astray the world. Within the mortal is the fire of desire. He gets not satiated and remains hungry and thirsty. Illusion is this world. It perishes, is reborn, comes and goes. Without the True Guru secular attachment sunders not. All have grown weary of performing rituals. When it pleases Thee, O Lord! the mortal is sated with joy by remembering the Name under the Guru's instruction. He saves his lineage. Blest is the mother who gave birth to him. Beauteous is the magnificence and understanding of him who fixes his mind with God.

ਠਗਉਲੀ = ਠਗ-ਮੂਰੀ, ਠਗ-ਬੂਟੀ। ਆਪਹੁ = ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਤੋਂ। ਖੁਆਇਆ = ਖੁੰਝਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ। ਨਹ ਤਿਪਤੈ = ਨਹੀਂ ਰੱਜਦਾ। ਸਹਸਾ = ਤੌਖ਼ਲਾ। ਸੁਖਿ = ਸੁਖ ਵਿਚ। ਰਜਾ = ਰੱਜ ਗਿਆ। ਮਾਇਆ = ਮਾਂ। ਜਣੇਦੀ = ਜੰਮਣ ਵਾਲੀ।੨।

(ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ!) ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਗਤ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਹੀ (ਇਸ ਨੂੰ) ਜੰਜਾਲ ਵਿਚ ਪਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ। (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ) ਮੋਹ ਦੀ ਠਗ ਬੂਟੀ ਖੁਆ ਕੇ ਤੂੰ ਜਗਤ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਤੋਂ (ਭਾਵ, ਆਪਣੀ ਯਾਦ ਤੋਂ) ਖੁੰਝਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ। (ਜਗਤ ਦੇ) ਅੰਦਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਦੀ ਅੱਗ (ਬਲ ਰਹੀ) ਹੈ, (ਇਸ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਇਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀ) ਤ੍ਰਿਹ ਤੇ ਭੁੱਖ ਦਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਰੱਜਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਜਗਤ ਹੈ ਹੀ ਤੌਖ਼ਲਾ (ਰੂਪ), (ਇਸ ਤੌਖ਼ਲੇ ਵਿਚ ਪਿਆ ਜੀਵ) ਜੰਮਦਾ ਮਰਦਾ ਤੇ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਪਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਮਾਇਆ ਦਾ ਇਹ) ਮੋਹ ਗੁਰੂ (ਦੀ ਸਰਨ) ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਟੁੱਟਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ, (ਬਥੇਰੇ ਜੀਵ) ਹੋਰ ਹੋਰ (ਧਾਰਮਿਕ) ਕੰਮ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਹਾਰ ਚੁਕੇ ਹਨ। ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਹੀ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ!) ਜਦੋਂ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਭਾਵੇ (ਤਾਂ ਜੀਵ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੇ) ਸੁਖ ਵਿਚ (ਟਿਕ ਕੇ) ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਧੰਨ ਹੈ (ਉਸ ਜੀਵ ਦੀ) ਜੰਮਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਮਾਂ, (ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਉਹ) ਆਪਣਾ ਖ਼ਾਨਦਾਨ (ਹੀ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਤੋਂ) ਬਚਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਲ ਚਿੱਤ ਜੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ, (ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਉਸ ਦੀ) ਸੋਭਾ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਸੋਹਣੀ ਸੂਝ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।੨।

 

[lionprinceuk]

cheers

 

[walia58]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

I am Saini, daughter of devout Sikh parents. I married a Hindu Khatri. The caste or religion question never occured to me at all before marriage. I have known my husband a year before we tied the knot.

We have never discussed anything regarding religion or caste. He goes to Gurudwara when he has time to take me. And I go to the mandir when his family has functions.

So far, though we argue and disagree a lot (as normal couples do) religion and caste never came up.

If a man/woman swims on two boats, it is sure he/she will sink. There may be number of parths to go for a particular destination. However, If you want you will chose one particular path. In your case, your husband is not going to gurudwara for himself, but for you. The same is with you. It is true, the children will be confused and one of you will be forced to adopt one path for your children.

 

[Archived_Member5]

The first love of a self professed devotee of the Supreme Spirit and Lord is the Waheguru. In Sikhism as with all faiths one honours and has faith in ones parentage until one gains the emotional intelligence and common sense to comprehend why their tenets and regulations are upheld and set in society.

Marriage is conducted in a temple, mandir, church or place of worship with both families of the spouses present and their friends and peers to witness and bless the ceremony and union. If this basic principle were applied the problem of cross caste unions would not arise. If two individuals from differing faiths, class or union were both mutually amenable then that is all and well.

The greatest love one has first and foremost is for the Supreme God replete with an understanding of his vulnerabilities and the reasoning for his binding doctrines. Fate decree’s what class, religion, race or background we are stationed at. Remaining aligned to the parental, societal, communal and collective will whilst deriving as much happiness from life is the true measure of success.

I have successful well adjusted offspring and I myself would not marry outside the boundaries of my faith and beliefs given by my forefathers, there is no need. Loved and confident individuals fare well with suitable matches loving parents have found and secured for them. My modern sociable clan hold as much faith in their parents as we have instilled sense and understanding in them.

The only occasion one goes against the parental wish is rebellion, arising from misunderstanding, resentment and grudges. Such mortals name lust, attraction and a desperate desire to clutch at any suitors at ones door, and do so reproachfully in the name of Love.. A respectable and loving family, whether blessed with regular attendance at the temple or not, do not encounter the problem of mutinous and defiant offspring. A matter of trust, faith, understanding and mostly love.

Any problems resultant of a lack of communication in a particular family is a problem to be resolved by the family and not a topic for general discussion at a time more urgent and immediate problems threaten social principles and traditional values. A dilemma to be resolved within their community based upon the facts in hand.

Ones first love is with the Almighty Waheguru, ones earthly parents and ones society. All men of all racial, religious and cast e backgrounds are as honourable and compliant as their nurturing and pedigree allows. The meaning of life is to succeed in life within the bounds of stipulated societal mores whilst finding all the happiness in the world in daily living.

 

[desilegend]

I have talked about this topic on my blog Gora Sikh...and one sikh mentioned to me about Rahat nama

I agree with your point but forgot to point out that according to 'rahat nama' (sikh constitution), a sikh should marry a sikh only, (cast, past religion, ethnicity etc does not matter.)

Can anyone tell me more about Rahat Nama?

I believe in equality and believe that everyone should be given chance, right?

 

[spnadmin]

desilegend ji

The Rehitnama is silent on marriages that occur between a Sikh and non-Sikh if the marriage occured before one of the couple converted to Sikhism after they married. Totally silent. Why this is could be a very interesting discussion.

One pattern that may explain this: There are few Sikhs who are committed to their path that would be in the business of breaking up a marriage and encouraging a divorce. So the old saying -- If it ain't broke don't fix it. Marriage is sacred in Sikhism.

At the same time, Sikhs are permitted to divorce without any religious sanctions. The difficulties come from cultural and family influences. Divorce is painful for everyone -- not just the couple -- but for entire families. So it is hard.

The best way to start with the Rehitnama is to read it. It is accessible on the sikhnet.com site and also on Welcome to Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (check the navigation bar). The topic of the rehit is not as clear-cut as some may make it seem because the history of the rehitnama is complicated -- nonetheless very interesting. I will spare the details; however say this -- there have been many rehits throughout the history of the Sikh religion, and the current rehit is relatively recent in terms of its age. Your next step, after reading it, is to read about its history. You will find it is an amazing document.

My thought: If ever there were a religion that is relatively free of meddling busy-bodies it is Sikhism. Compassion rules over moral judgment.