Without having any intention of showing dis-respect towards the our most enlinghtened SIKH GURUS, one quistion keeps bothering me. Why did all the GURUS marry in the Khatri caste? 
Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?
- Thread starter Randip Singh
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Jasbirkeleka ji
This is not a good answer but the only one I have been able to come up with myself. In those days marriage was an economic transaction between families. I am not referring so much to the wealth of a the bridegroom's family and the dowry of the bride. More a case of determining how the wealth, property, assets and business concerns of an entire and extended family would be transferred to the next generation, remain in a family, and not be diluted with a family. So the wealth of each family would remain consolidated within the family. The view was very business like. My hypothesis is based on my understanding of other traditional societies that have patriarchal.
So it doesn't seem so hypocritical if you see marriage as a business arrangement. The business arrangement wouldn't exclude personal relationships, religious associations, or friendships with people from other castes.
So you could come back with the response, Then were they greedy about possessions and money? And the answer has to be this. The Gurus themselves did not own anything of wealth. Their families owned whatever was the wealth. Giving to others or sharing wealth would be a family decision. As families they shared what they had.
This is not a good answer but the only one I have been able to come up with myself. In those days marriage was an economic transaction between families. I am not referring so much to the wealth of a the bridegroom's family and the dowry of the bride. More a case of determining how the wealth, property, assets and business concerns of an entire and extended family would be transferred to the next generation, remain in a family, and not be diluted with a family. So the wealth of each family would remain consolidated within the family. The view was very business like. My hypothesis is based on my understanding of other traditional societies that have patriarchal.
So it doesn't seem so hypocritical if you see marriage as a business arrangement. The business arrangement wouldn't exclude personal relationships, religious associations, or friendships with people from other castes.
So you could come back with the response, Then were they greedy about possessions and money? And the answer has to be this. The Gurus themselves did not own anything of wealth. Their families owned whatever was the wealth. Giving to others or sharing wealth would be a family decision. As families they shared what they had.
Guru Nanak ji advised Guru Angad Ji to go set up a new "gadee" Centre of Operations... at KHADOOR SAHIB. This was to prevent any disturbances over the ownership of Kartarpur with the sons of Guru nanak who may have ideas about "property" of the Father.
In turn Guru Amardass ji moved to .....Goindwaal sahib
Guru Ramdass Ji moved to...Amritsar
Guru Teg Bahadur Ji established Anandpur Sahib ....
Apart from putting an end to property disputes..these MOVES also had the effect of establishing NEW CENTRES of Sikhism and SPREADING the FAITH.
The SIKH GURUS..never established any PERSONAL DERAS ( as do the present day SANTS)..but established NEW TOWNS....for the POPULACE to settle in. Always sarovars, baolis, khoos, and other PUBLIC amenities were built and the people invited to settle in and populate the towns. Even though "the Land for Ramdass Chuck" ( Amrtisar Town) was BOUGHT and paid for by Guru Ramdass JI/Guru Amardass Ji...and Anadpur Sahib was on Land bought and paid for by Guru Teg Bahdur Ji..it was Never regarded as Personal property to be passed on to the son/family estate..
2. Questions like WHY did the Guru did this..why he didnt do that ?? are often frivilous.
WHY Guru nanak ji left the comforts of his home and family to walk the world ??..WHY didnt he stay home ?? Why he married Mata Sulakhni and not some other ?? WHY guru Teg bahdur ji travel to Delhi to offer his head..why not compromise..or refuse to take sides with the Brahmins ?? Why Guru Gobind Singh ji let his sons die and not make efforts to save them ?? etc etc are really BEYOND US. No point seeking answers to these and countless other frivilous questions..I call these DHUCHARS - not real genuine queries because the answers are NOT WITHIN OUR KNOWLEDGE. No offense emant or taken. Just my own humble opinion.
In turn Guru Amardass ji moved to .....Goindwaal sahib
Guru Ramdass Ji moved to...Amritsar
Guru Teg Bahadur Ji established Anandpur Sahib ....
Apart from putting an end to property disputes..these MOVES also had the effect of establishing NEW CENTRES of Sikhism and SPREADING the FAITH.
The SIKH GURUS..never established any PERSONAL DERAS ( as do the present day SANTS)..but established NEW TOWNS....for the POPULACE to settle in. Always sarovars, baolis, khoos, and other PUBLIC amenities were built and the people invited to settle in and populate the towns. Even though "the Land for Ramdass Chuck" ( Amrtisar Town) was BOUGHT and paid for by Guru Ramdass JI/Guru Amardass Ji...and Anadpur Sahib was on Land bought and paid for by Guru Teg Bahdur Ji..it was Never regarded as Personal property to be passed on to the son/family estate..
2. Questions like WHY did the Guru did this..why he didnt do that ?? are often frivilous.
WHY Guru nanak ji left the comforts of his home and family to walk the world ??..WHY didnt he stay home ?? Why he married Mata Sulakhni and not some other ?? WHY guru Teg bahdur ji travel to Delhi to offer his head..why not compromise..or refuse to take sides with the Brahmins ?? Why Guru Gobind Singh ji let his sons die and not make efforts to save them ?? etc etc are really BEYOND US. No point seeking answers to these and countless other frivilous questions..I call these DHUCHARS - not real genuine queries because the answers are NOT WITHIN OUR KNOWLEDGE. No offense emant or taken. Just my own humble opinion.
Gyani ji
It is often frustrating because we think with today's apparatus. In the day's of the Gurus, there was no CNN-IBN thrusting a microphone in the face of a Guru and everyone in the neighborhood on a information gathering expedition. And there were no "analysts" or talking heads giving the populace the scoop on why this Guru did what he did on the evening news.
It is often frustrating because we think with today's apparatus. In the day's of the Gurus, there was no CNN-IBN thrusting a microphone in the face of a Guru and everyone in the neighborhood on a information gathering expedition. And there were no "analysts" or talking heads giving the populace the scoop on why this Guru did what he did on the evening news.
Hi all, i know many sikhs that have married out of caste, all i can say is that they seem happy, and to be honest, as long as a sikh marries a sikh, then there is no problem. The problem ariises when , two people of different religions marry. It is not normally the couple who have any difficulties, its usually the children, as they are split, or insure of who they are, hence do not know which faith to follow. Lastly, this does not set a good example to other or youngsters in general.
We live in a world that is loosing moral values , permisscious & greedy, basically going down the toilet. We need to set the standard , at home, and by having different cultures/relgions in the home, is not a sound base for an upbringing of any child. We need to be honest with ourselves from the start, and a healthy relation, steeped in culture is just what today' society's children need to be the leaders of tomorrow.
We live in a world that is loosing moral values , permisscious & greedy, basically going down the toilet. We need to set the standard , at home, and by having different cultures/relgions in the home, is not a sound base for an upbringing of any child. We need to be honest with ourselves from the start, and a healthy relation, steeped in culture is just what today' society's children need to be the leaders of tomorrow.
Myself being from the West has no use of caste but I do understand varna which was *******ed by caste But the rest is a tough nut for me to crack. I am a believer in love so if a marriage is born out of love and the same is so for the children I think interfaith marriage can work out as well. Sooner or later the children will choose the path for them.
Peace
Satyaban
Peace
Satyaban
Hardip Singh
SPNer
- Jan 14, 2009
- 323
- 503
Guru fateh parvan karni jee.
Thou me and my wife are from same group of casts (Bhapa or so) but I got me daughter married toa Jaat genleman. We all are amritdhari sikhs. casts shouls never have any face values.
However, I have faced one strange thing. The basic coustoms do vary from cast to cast, It is not easy to get adjusted to some thing different so easily. God helps us in this Sikh maarg.
Thou me and my wife are from same group of casts (Bhapa or so) but I got me daughter married toa Jaat genleman. We all are amritdhari sikhs. casts shouls never have any face values.
However, I have faced one strange thing. The basic coustoms do vary from cast to cast, It is not easy to get adjusted to some thing different so easily. God helps us in this Sikh maarg.
Customs are different, but I thnk they vary more from area to area rather than caste to caste. Also it depends on your profession.
A Jatt who is a trader will have more in common with a Khatri who is a trader. A Tarkhan who is a farmer will have more in common with a Labana who is a farmer.
hi , Yes, it true that its great for a relationship to be born out of love and that children will eventually choose their own path, but as parents, elders, its our primary function is to guide and educate our children in life skills, including faith, culture etc. This is not the education that is available in schools, but only from the home. If we do not ful fill this role, then we are letting not just our children down , but future generations too.
Has anyone ever thought why hey are born into a religion?
its not just fate, I think its because we are meant to be there.
thanks for reading.
Has anyone ever thought why hey are born into a religion?
its not just fate, I think its because we are meant to be there.
thanks for reading.
Hardip Singh
SPNer
- Jan 14, 2009
- 323
- 503
Randeep Veer jeo,
I will be highly obliged if you can just write the origional shabad from SGGS page 1128 whose English tranlation you had given above for the blog.
Guru fateh.
I will be highly obliged if you can just write the origional shabad from SGGS page 1128 whose English tranlation you had given above for the blog.
Guru fateh.
ricky_xccess
SPNer
- Aug 18, 2008
- 9
- 3
Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)
Hii All,
After listening so many comments on whether it is good or bad about marrying out of cast or not. i want to share my views about the same. please correct me where i am wrong.
i think marrying a girl or boy out of caste might make a distance between us and Waheguru. As we all are on way of becoming a gursikh, so i think we need a partner who push us forward towards Waheguru...Marrying a girl/boy out of cast might not put our step forward toward Waheguru. If the sikh girl is marrying out of caste then she should follow the tradition of her in-laws family and also here the question comes of sikh youth's. They are not thinking that we are loosing our sikhi day by day. Right now Fashion is above every religion. We are trying to make excuses when we fall in love with some one that god is one....otherwise we think that our religion is superior....Thinking practically rather than just saying...we all should protect our Sikhism as this is the only religion by which we can lean to Waheguru...And ofcourse by only a sikh we cannot get the almighty god but by doing paath, kirtan, Shabad, and listen and follow the Waheguru path will awake our MANN....so i think we should marry a sikh boy/girl only...And yes i am not against any cast...yes ofcource we can marry anyone..but point is practically it will be difficult then if you want to come close to almighty Waheguru.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa..Waheguru ji ki fateh...
Puneet Singh
Hii All,
After listening so many comments on whether it is good or bad about marrying out of cast or not. i want to share my views about the same. please correct me where i am wrong.
i think marrying a girl or boy out of caste might make a distance between us and Waheguru. As we all are on way of becoming a gursikh, so i think we need a partner who push us forward towards Waheguru...Marrying a girl/boy out of cast might not put our step forward toward Waheguru. If the sikh girl is marrying out of caste then she should follow the tradition of her in-laws family and also here the question comes of sikh youth's. They are not thinking that we are loosing our sikhi day by day. Right now Fashion is above every religion. We are trying to make excuses when we fall in love with some one that god is one....otherwise we think that our religion is superior....Thinking practically rather than just saying...we all should protect our Sikhism as this is the only religion by which we can lean to Waheguru...And ofcourse by only a sikh we cannot get the almighty god but by doing paath, kirtan, Shabad, and listen and follow the Waheguru path will awake our MANN....so i think we should marry a sikh boy/girl only...And yes i am not against any cast...yes ofcource we can marry anyone..but point is practically it will be difficult then if you want to come close to almighty Waheguru.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa..Waheguru ji ki fateh...
Puneet Singh
Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)
Puneet Singh ji,
Guru Fateh.
You make a lot of sense. When a couple marries, their spiritual, and moral concepts should not clash. If they do then either there will be abuse, normally by the male or there will be a divorce after sometime. Secondly, mixed marriages may also create confusion in the kids. As Sikhi is idea based, for one to evolve in the idea, the journey should be in unison. Some people who belong to other religions practice rituals and are happy with that. Sikhi is not like that. It requires Shabad Vichaar so that harmony is cultivated.
Tejwant Singh
Puneet Singh ji,
Guru Fateh.
You make a lot of sense. When a couple marries, their spiritual, and moral concepts should not clash. If they do then either there will be abuse, normally by the male or there will be a divorce after sometime. Secondly, mixed marriages may also create confusion in the kids. As Sikhi is idea based, for one to evolve in the idea, the journey should be in unison. Some people who belong to other religions practice rituals and are happy with that. Sikhi is not like that. It requires Shabad Vichaar so that harmony is cultivated.
Tejwant Singh
Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)
I am in the same boat with you aad ji....
Unless it was meant that the Jatt is a SIKH and the Khatree is a Hindu....then there might ( I say MIGHT ) be a small problem...but that too can be easily overcome.. Such Jatt/Khatree marriages are common in Punjab...i just attended one last december..the Girl is Sikh..and the Boy is Hindu...she goes to gurdwara while her spouse goes to the Shiv mandir....sometimes BOTH go to the same place...so theres hope !!
Please forgive my lack of knowledge. Why would a jaat/khatree marriage get in the way of doing paath or making a connection with Waheguru. Thanks
I am in the same boat with you aad ji....
Unless it was meant that the Jatt is a SIKH and the Khatree is a Hindu....then there might ( I say MIGHT ) be a small problem...but that too can be easily overcome.. Such Jatt/Khatree marriages are common in Punjab...i just attended one last december..the Girl is Sikh..and the Boy is Hindu...she goes to gurdwara while her spouse goes to the Shiv mandir....sometimes BOTH go to the same place...so theres hope !!
Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)
Hi Puneet Singh,
When you say marry out of caste you mean marry out of religion?
Hi Puneet Singh,
When you say marry out of caste you mean marry out of religion?
ricky_xccess
SPNer
- Aug 18, 2008
- 9
- 3
Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)
Hii,
Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh...
Yaa i mean sikh marrying out of religion...
Here i just trying to make a point that intercast marriage is ok but what is the impact after marriage?
In Inter cast marriage, customs are diff n if sikh marrying in different religion than obviously
there customs are diff, spiritual belief are mostly diff, meditation to god is diff etc.
We sikh believes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only n diff religion believes in their god irrespective that god is one.
so point i am trying to make is that in intercase marriage it is very diff to meditate in waheguru
n dedicate our life to waheguru.
ਬਹੁਤ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰੇ ਥੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ
For so many incarnations, I have been separated from You, Lord; I dedicate this life to U
Hii,
Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh...
Yaa i mean sikh marrying out of religion...
Here i just trying to make a point that intercast marriage is ok but what is the impact after marriage?
In Inter cast marriage, customs are diff n if sikh marrying in different religion than obviously
there customs are diff, spiritual belief are mostly diff, meditation to god is diff etc.
We sikh believes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only n diff religion believes in their god irrespective that god is one.
so point i am trying to make is that in intercase marriage it is very diff to meditate in waheguru
n dedicate our life to waheguru.
ਬਹੁਤ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰੇ ਥੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ
For so many incarnations, I have been separated from You, Lord; I dedicate this life to U
Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)
My belief is that if you are Sikh, you are Sikh regardless of caste.
My belief is that if you are Sikh, you are Sikh regardless of caste.
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