Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[tony]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

not being born a sikh the idea of different caste's based on what your job role is is somewhat bemusing to me and smacks of discrimination much the same as rascism none of which have a place in any religion. the man who cleans the streets is as important as the man the who owns the factory that makes his brush because without one another niether could exist. the jeweler who makes masses of money trades in others sins, one of adorenment yet he is supposedly more respected than a man who who empties his bins. Foolish are the people who discriminate on whatever grounds be it race, caste or religion.
God will jugde you on the way you treat others and if you disriminate then your seat at the side of God will have already been taken. on a personal note i met a sikh lady and got married now have two beautiful children who are not confused and are taught to treat all living things with respect. my relationship was born out of love without a care for differing skin colour, race or religion. their are now three exrta sikhs in the world because of it cant be that bad can it

 

[bopadum]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

I am Sikh and Mesthri (or Tharkaan as some people call it). I have married a Hindu Sinyari. So out of caste and Religon. I think its great, we both learn about each others religons and caste (caste in the sense of She teaches me about the Gold Trade I teach her about Building! maybe we would be ideal contractors for the Golden Temple!)

P.S. Caste to me just defines your background. i.e. I automatically know how to build a house and my wife can automatically tell the difference between diamonds (imagine how expensive the wedding ring was!). Though we both do not work in the trade (I am going back to building soon) it helps place your heritage. For example when my wife talks about how her grandad came over to this country and set up shop - what sort of shop? well the only real word is Sinyara you wouldn't say Sona Wala?! As long as it doesn't affect the judgement of how you treat people (i.e. untouchables etc) it is not neccessarily a bad thing.

Though one of my cousins does not know how to use a spirit level and we do call him a discgrace! (as a joke)

 

[Suneet Kaur]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

Wahe Guru ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru ji Ke Fateh

In Sikhi there is no issue of caste, because Sikh is a Sikh. Regarding Marriage part is concerned, with Children there can be a problem, whether they should follow Sikhi or other religion. But why should the children be born with thier religion as a symbol. They should be nurtured enshrining them to be good human beings, to respect all religions, all human beings and all faiths.

And he should be keshdhari or not, we should leave decision on our children alone,

I would like to ask one question from all like minded brothers and sisters, IS Hindu or any Sikh who is not Keshdhari is not human being?

If your answer is Yes, then there is no issue or question left of Castesim.

 

[lakhtan]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!!!

I did not marry out of caste - my resons being:

1. I was always told from a very young age by may (now deceased) parents that whomever I wish to marry, she MUST be a Sikh and a Jat.

2. I am from the UK and the majority of the Sikh community I know are Jats.

3. And finally I happened to fall in love with a Jat Sikh girl and by Waheguru's grace we got married.

I acknowledge that the Khalsa should see no bar to marital alliance. I however would want my children to marry Jat Sikhs only. I would only waver from this if they were to marry an Amrit baptised Sikh and they too were to accept Pahul themselves.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh!!!

 

[max314]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

In Sikhi there is no issue of caste, because Sikh is a Sikh.

No, it's because a human is a human. :wink:

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!!!

I did not marry out of caste - my resons being:

1. I was always told from a very young age by may (now deceased) parents that whomever I wish to marry, she MUST be a Sikh and a Jat.

2. I am from the UK and the majority of the Sikh community I know are Jats.

3. And finally I happened to fall in love with a Jat Sikh girl and by Waheguru's grace we got married.

I acknowledge that the Khalsa should see no bar to marital alliance. I however would want my children to marry Jat Sikhs only. I would only waver from this if they were to marry an Amrit baptised Sikh and they to were to accept Pahul themselves.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh!!!

Isn't it funny? The "iron test" of a 'True Sikkh' is one who marries out of their caste?

I don't think this is necessarily so. No-one has anything to prove, and I think that those of jatt descent get some undue hassle because of it. If anything, one could say that this is little more than the manifestation of an underlying inferiority complex that some non-jatt people may have. An inferiority complex that need not even exist, since all men are woven from the same fabric of the universe.

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Isn't it funny? The "iron test" of a 'True Sikkh' is one who marries out of their caste?

Yes it really looks funny ! never thought about that in this sense

But still I tend agree with people who marry in their within their Clan ( like Jatt)
as most marriages are arranged in india and this gives better chance for families to decide the suitablity of match as for most of the people cultural values has more hold than any other thing like spirtual values .

In Punjab it very common to find Jatt Community expressing themselves as superior race ( as it cant be regraded as caste ) and it can be see in cultural products like punjabi songs

Same is true for other famous CLAN Ramgharia , they dont get enough chance to show their superior quality in culture like Jatts but they dont miss any chance on religious matter where they proclaim to be better sikh race .

So it become quite obvious why pressure mounts more on Jatts although totally wrong and baseless ,

And it works both ways some people are having inferiority complex while others are having superiority complex all this makes picture more complex and funny

One major reason is that most people in punjanb and even punjabi outside punjab relate more with PUNJABISM and not with Path of spirtuality /Sikhism .



JAtinder Singh

 

[Satyaban]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Am I correct in understanding that Jatt is simply an ethnic group and are not a sect within Sikhism?

Peace
Satyaban

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Dear Satyaban Ji ,


You are Right in assuming that JATT is not Sect in Sikhism ,

It relates more to the ethnic background of people.


The same ethnic background is also called CHAUDARY in Pakistan and they are Muslim by religion .


Jatinder Singh

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

No, it's because a human is a human. :wink:



Isn't it funny? The "iron test" of a 'True Sikkh' is one who marries out of their caste?

I don't think this is necessarily so. No-one has anything to prove, and I think that those of jatt descent get some undue hassle because of it. If anything, one could say that this is little more than the manifestation of an underlying inferiority complex that some non-jatt people may have. An inferiority complex that need not even exist, since all men are woven from the same fabric of the universe.

I disagree totally Max, because I had to personally go through this dilemma. On the one hand my Guru tells me :

Recognise the Human Race as One

and on the other, my family tells me that we are superior to all other races/castes (and we are not Jatts by the way).

When I met my wife of present, the question of what caste/race we were never crossed our minds. We just fell for each other because our ideals and faith were the same. It was only later I found out she was a Jatt and all hell broke lose in my family and hers.

Luckily I had very forward thinking parents that basically told my family members to "get lost" if they didn't agree with the marriage. My in-laws too were fine with me after they met me.

If either me or my wife had lost our iron nerve and will we would have missed out on many years of family bliss. Our respective families would have missed out on some great and long lasting friendships. My father and father-in-laws are great friends today.

People who preach prejudice against other humans be they Jatt, Ramgarhia, Kambho, Khatri or Martian should rightly get it all the hassle they deserve. Not having caste/racial prejudice is a fundemental requirement of Sikhism................and those that make excuses for their biggoted behaviour should not pick and choose what part of Sikhism they want......

I find it Ironic....low castes/ethnic groups like Jatts, Tarkhans, Kalal's, Khambo's, Arora's...........even Khatri's (Bedi's and Sodhi's are seen as the lowest group amongst Kshatriya's) etc who have gained high status through Sikhism's social upliftment now choose to exert a sort of social superiority and division...............how hypocritical

....and if Jatts or Ramgarhia's are getting worried about this and thier "superior" bloodlines being diluted, then they should withdraw from projecting themselves at the forefront of Sikh institutions................to coin an old phrase....."If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen".
........

 

[max314]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

I disagree totally Max, because I had to personally go through this dilemma. On the one hand my Guru tells me :

Recognise the Human Race as One

and on the other, my family tells me that we are superior to all other races/castes (and we are not Jatts by the way).

When I met my wife of present, the question of what caste/race we were never crossed our minds. We just fell for each other because our ideals and faith were the same. It was only later I found out she was a Jatt and all hell broke lose in my family and hers.

Luckily I had very forward thinking parents that basically told my family members to "get lost" if they didn't agree with the marriage. My in-laws too were fine with me after they met me.

If either me or my wife had lost our iron nerve and will we would have missed out on many years of family bliss. Our respective families would have missed out on some great and long lasting friendships. My father and father-in-laws are great friends today.

People who preach prejudice against other humans be they Jatt, Ramgarhia, Kambho, Khatri or Martian should rightly get it all the hassle they deserve. Not having caste/racial prejudice is a fundemental requirement of Sikhism................and those that make excuses for their biggoted behaviour should not pick and choose what part of Sikhism they want......

I find it Ironic....low castes/ethnic groups like Jatts, Tarkhans, Kalal's, Khambo's, Arora's...........even Khatri's (Bedi's and Sodhi's are seen as the lowest group amongst Kshatriya's) etc who have gained high status through Sikhism's social upliftment now choose to exert a sort of social superiority and division...............how hypocritical

....and if Jatts or Ramgarhia's are getting worried about this and thier "superior" bloodlines being diluted, then they should withdraw from projecting themselves at the forefront of Sikh institutions................to coin an old phrase....."If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen".
........

Please re-read my post.

I never said that marrying out of caste was right or wrong.

I simply said that a Jatt shouldn't have to 'prove' him/herself by marrying a non-Jatt, as per the title of this thread.

I find it infinitely curious, however, that all ten Sikkh Gurus were of the khatri caste. And also that all their family members were married into other khatri families, as far as I am aware...

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

Please re-read my post.
I never said that marrying out of caste was right or wrong.
I simply said that a Jatt shouldn't have to 'prove' him/herself by marrying a non-Jatt, as per the title of this thread.

You are right he or she doesn’t.
The question really is not about "proving", but "accepting" the core values. I would argue that there are a number of Sikhs out there that do not accept the core values (eg remember the hulla balloo about meat).

What I am saying is that if a particular community is going to position itself at the forefront of Sikhism, then it can’t be seen to pick and choose.

I find it infinitely curious, however, that all ten Sikkh Gurus were of the khatri caste. And also that all their family members were married into other khatri families, as far as I am aware...

OK…let us analyse this.

Before Guru Nanak came on the scene, it would have been considered a sin for say a Jatt’s shadow to pass over a Brahmin . The latter would consider himself polluted. The fact Guru Nanak managed to get them to eat together was a miracle in itself…….so lets not even talk about marriage yet.

As a wise Gursikh in India said to me, when climbing a mountain, you have to set up camps for climbers to acclimatise.
Lets look at the Guru’s attitude on marriage:

1) At that time in society marriage ceremonies (bar untouchables), were carried out by Brahmins. Brahmin’s would not carry out inter-caste/racial marriages, so it was impossible to marry another caste/race. The Guru’s introduced the Anand Karaj ceremony which lifted this taboo.

2) The social interaction at the time between women of different castes and men of different castes did not simply occur….so how would the Guru’s meet anyone of a different caste of the opposite sex for marriage puposes?

3) Marriages were all arranged (the Guru’s being no exception)……they had no say in the matter and were fixed up as children. Parents would ask for suitable matches…….unfortunately not one person of a different caste to the Guru’s offered their daughters hand to the Guru’s…….maybe they didn’t feel worthy.

4) If the Guru’s had married out of caste, I don’t think the embryonic Sikh Society of that time (who were essentially still Hindu’s), were ready for that yet………the message of the Guru’s would have been lost in the furore over which such an intercaste union would have caused. The Guru’s message to who needed it the most (the ignorant peasantry), would have been lost.

There are many other reasons, but you get the gist.​

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Dear Randip Singh Ji


Precisely You have explained the point about marriage of Guru Sahibans .

As Guru ji Never went out to find a Bride for themselves , most of the time it was arranged or in other case some sikh would express desire to marry his daughter with Guru JI .

So to be precise it was Mindset of people who never even tried to get their daughter geting married with Guru JI.and their is no instance where Guru Ji refused to marry somebody on such bases.


And Also With Max JI

I think both you maybe trying to say the same thing but still their different view held about some cultural things

MAX believe that people in sikh Community carry inferiority complex about JATT being superior and their is undue pressure on JATTS to marry Inferior Clan to prove something

I dont know from where MAX arrived Got idea that people consider JATT superior . It may be in the local circle of MAX. As per my knowledge in Punjab Except the low classes of hindu system and JATT themself consider themselve superior and no body else .

May be these beliefs are causing confusion in disscusion .



Jatinder Singh

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

I dont know from where MAX arrived Got idea that people consider JATT superior . It may be in the local circle of MAX. As per my knowledge in Punjab Except the low classes of hindu system and JATT themself consider themselve superior and no body else .

A good analogy would be the Black Power movement, where past misdeeds by whites (slavery, segregation) etc had caused the blacks to form the own social superiority groups. I know groups where they only advocate Black on black marriage and other colours are barred. English are another example, a conquered and enslaved people. There are many other examples.

I think this feeling amongst Jatts maybe analagous to them. If you read history, they were treated very badly, they were barred from landholding and made to work on Zamindars (Mughal, Rajput,Kshatriya) land, they paid 66% tax on produce, Kshatriya's and Rajputs would often kidnap their daughters and make them concubine's in their Zanana's..... .....Sikhism gave them an opportunity to get their own back.

Bandha Bahadhur and then Maharaja Ranjit abolished Zamindari system and introduced Jagirdari where the workers in effect became the owners. Jagjit Singh refers to this as the Sikh revolution. Dr Js Grewal (Sikhs of the Punjab), shows how Jatts joined Sikhism in the 19th Century in massive numbers.

 

[singhkhalsa]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Waheguru Ji

To Marry inside or outside the cast does not matter. The main thing here is how do you think it.

As long as my personal views are concerned that we should not marry out of cast unless some sort of emergency. However at the same time we should love everyone.

Ajitpal

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

As long as my personal views are concerned that we should not marry out of cast unless some sort of emergency.
Ajitpal

What would would constitute "an emergency".

 

[singhkhalsa]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Appreciate, great explanation
Keep it up!!!!!!

Waheguru

What would would constitute "an emergency".

An emergency can be anything right from 0 to 100

Ajitpal

 

[akamjballar]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

I don't agree with anyone here. We should marry into our cast/race. As Sikhs we should keep the purity inside. Take for example, when you amrit shakt, you can't do it alone, it has to be husband and wife. If you marry someone out of your cast/race they will not fully understand the importance of the religion and will only follow because you are telling them to. Another thing is that if we keep marrying out of our cast we will slowly kill our race. The kids who are born into families with mixed race don't know Punjabi. This makes me feel cruddy, how we are killing our own race in front of our eyes.

 

[Jazz]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

I don't agree with anyone here. We should marry into our cast/race. As Sikhs we should keep the purity inside. Take for example, when you amrit shakt, you can't do it alone, it has to be husband and wife. If you marry someone out of your cast/race they will not fully understand the importance of the religion and will only follow because you are telling them to. Another thing is that if we keep marrying out of our cast we will slowly kill our race. The kids who are born into families with mixed race don't know Punjabi. This makes me feel cruddy, how we are killing our own race in front of our eyes.

WGJKK WGJKF

I think you refer to relationships that cross religion, whereas the main body of this thread questions relationships across caste, which exists within the religion.

Jas

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

I don't agree with anyone here. We should marry into our cast/race. As Sikhs we should keep the purity inside. Take for example, when you amrit shakt, you can't do it alone, it has to be husband and wife. If you marry someone out of your cast/race they will not fully understand the importance of the religion and will only follow because you are telling them to. Another thing is that if we keep marrying out of our cast we will slowly kill our race. The kids who are born into families with mixed race don't know Punjabi. This makes me feel cruddy, how we are killing our own race in front of our eyes.

Akal ........that souds pretty racist what you are saying.

Sikhism is Universal, and does not apply to only one particular race, creed of people.

 

[trilochankaur]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

I haven´t married upon a caste
My husband is brazilian and converted to sikh