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How To See God In All?

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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Your humility, patience and perception have always rated high on my list, Chazji my dear brother, let us all write flowery to the cows come home, god knows I am capable of such writing myself, however, let us never expect our flowery writings to be confused with truth, yes, some questions we cannot answer, it might be better to admit such, than pretend otherwise and then be unable to substantiate, in a court of intellect and logic, our own floweryness.

ok, so you go into a court of intellect and logic, and you get asked..."so you love your parents? .... prove it.."

Could you? i mean really, can you prove it...?

prove it now...here...to me...

describe that love...make me understand it....comon Harry Ji...without sounding like a poet, without sounding flowery lol or whatever...

prove it...explain it so that i know what it is...so i know what love is...so i can breath it...
 
uhm photos in Gurdwaras of the Guru's
the importance of a full moon
trying to beat ones own best at recital speeds
the distinction of sexes at Darbar Sahib
discrimination of caste

I'm going to bed now, I am sure I can think of another dozen, and some really good ones, all the above command respect in Sikhism in some way shape or form.

i don;t follow | believe | implement any of the above in my life....

just like all aspects of life, Duality...there's the good and bad...

I've been to many Gurdwaras where the above don;t apply...and many where they do...
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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ok, so you go into a court of intellect and logic, and you get asked..."so you love your parents? .... prove it.."

Ah now that depends on your definition of love, I think love has been confused, I do not believe the love of god is the same as what is known as human love.

Could you? i mean really, can you prove it...?
Could I prove that I love my mum and dad in a court of intellect and logic, sure, no problem.

I would like the court to take into account the following facts.

I ring them four or five times a day, sometimes for hours on end, not because it makes them happy, but because it makes me happy.

I think of them and the affect my actions will have on them constantly, they are in my head all the time, offering advice and help.

When I am with them, I feel complete and whole, happy, making them happy, makes me happy, I enjoy serving them and doing what I can for them, their smiles melt my heart.

They are the only people I love in this world, and not by lip service, they are a part of my mind, I can feel their thoughts and their fears, I know how to make them happy, and I know what makes them sad, they are a part of me, and I trust them implicitly (mum if you are reading this, I don't want to get married, that subject is banned from the trust list until further notice).

describe that love...make me understand it....comon Harry Ji...without sounding like a poet, without sounding flowery lol or whatever...

I just did, the above happens to be pure fact, which I can prove by my actions.

prove it...explain it so that i know what it is...so i know what love is...so i can breath it...

I have proven it, however, I would be a fool if I expected you to understand it, or even be able experience it, or even wish to experience it.
 
Chazji, we are at cross purposes here, my main focus in life is my parents, whom I love deeply, it was not always that way, along the road many many diversions have been my focus, and now I have exhausted all diversions, so life is very simple, the way in which I live, which is in effect loving my parents more than life itself, its not very Sikhi, I am aware of that, and many would not understand it, it is not for everyone, and it only works at a certain stage in your life, the way I feel about my parents can be proven without any doubt, but is purely personal, the way one feels about god cannot be proven without any doubt, as no one knows what god is, everyone has their own understanding and vision, it should always be personal, never foisted on another, because, as John Cleese once said, that's exactly how Nazi Germany started.




Relish and share all experiences, it makes interesting reading, no one is damping that down, just be aware of the fine line between sharing and preaching, that is all I ask.
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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Harry Ji,

none of what you wrote has given me any inclination of what love is...
What is the love that drives your actions...how does it feel inside you...what is it...the furnace that makes the train move..

come one harry ji...

describe it to me...i don't want to know what you do...i want to know what love is...

surely you can do better than that in this court of logic lol you haven;t proved or shown me what your love is...????????

describe it to me please....i want to know what it is...i want to live, breath and feel it through your logical description....please try

actions are actions...many people do nice things but inside their feelings are the opposite...

Prove you love...make me understand it...understand what it is, how it feels for you...i want to know..
 
Last edited:

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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Harry Ji,

none of what you wrote has given me any inclination of what love is...
What is the love that drives your actions...how does it feel inside you...what is it...the furnace that makes the train move..

come one harry ji...

describe it to me...i don't want to know what you do...i want to know what love is...

surely you can do better than that in this court of logic lol you haven;t proved or shown me what your love is...????????

describe it to me please....i want to know what it is...i want to live, breath and feel it through your logical description....please try

actions are actions...many people do nice things but inside their feelings are the opposite...

Prove you love...make me understand it...understand what it is, how it feels for you...i want to know..

sure I can, love is when you feel another's happiness and pain, and you do what you can to assist or rejoice. This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool. One can only share.
 
ਆਖਹਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਤੈ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ

आखहि गोपी तै गोविंद ॥

Ākẖahi gopī ṯai govinḏ.

The Gopis and Krishna speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਈਸਰ ਆਖਹਿ ਸਿਧ

आखहि ईसर आखहि सिध ॥

Ākẖahi īsar ākẖahi siḏẖ.

Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਬੁਧ

आखहि केते कीते बुध ॥

Ākẖahi keṯe kīṯe buḏẖ.

The many created Buddhas speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਦਾਨਵ ਆਖਹਿ ਦੇਵ

आखहि दानव आखहि देव ॥

Ākẖahi ḏānav ākẖahi ḏev.

The demons speak, the demi-gods speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵ

आखहि सुरि नर मुनि जन सेव ॥

Ākẖahi sur nar mun jan sev.

The spiritual warriors, the heavenly beings, the silent sages, the humble and serviceful speak.


ਕੇਤੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਆਖਣਿ ਪਾਹਿ

केते आखहि आखणि पाहि ॥

Keṯe ākẖahi ākẖaṇ pāhi.

Many speak and try to describe Him.


ਕੇਤੇ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਹਿ

केते कहि कहि उठि उठि जाहि ॥

Keṯe kahi kahi uṯẖ uṯẖ jāhi.

Many have spoken of Him over and over again, and have then arisen and departed.


ਏਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਰੇਹਿ

एते कीते होरि करेहि ॥

Ėṯe kīṯe hor karehi.

If He were to create as many again as there already are,


ਤਾ ਆਖਿ ਸਕਹਿ ਕੇਈ ਕੇਇ

ता आखि न सकहि केई केइ ॥

Ŧā ākẖ na sakahi ke▫ī ke▫e.

even then, they could not describe Him.


ਜੇਵਡੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੇਵਡੁ ਹੋਇ

जेवडु भावै तेवडु होइ ॥

Jevad bẖāvai ṯevad ho▫e.

He is as Great as He wishes to be.


ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੋਇ

नानक जाणै साचा सोइ ॥

Nānak jāṇai sācẖā so▫e.

O Nanak, the True Lord knows.


ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ

जे को आखै बोलुविगाड़ु ॥

Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ.

If anyone presumes to describe God,


ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥

ता लिखीऐ सिरि गावारा गावारु ॥२६॥

Ŧā likī▫ai sir gāvārā gāvār. ||26||

he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26||


ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲੇ

सो दरु केहा सो घरु केहा जितु बहि सरब समाले ॥

So ḏar kehā so gẖar kehā jiṯ bahi sarab samāle.

Where is that Gate, and where is that Dwelling, in which You sit and take care of all?


ਵਾਜੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ

वाजे नाद अनेक असंखा केते वावणहारे ॥

vāje nāḏ anek asankẖā keṯe vāvaṇhāre.

The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there, and countless musicians play on all sorts of instruments there.


ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਗ ਪਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਕਹੀਅਨਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ

केते राग परी सिउ कहीअनि केते गावणहारे ॥

Keṯe rāg parī si▫o kahī▫an keṯe gāvaṇhāre.

So many Ragas, so many musicians singing there.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਤੁਹਨੋ ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਆਰੇ

गावहि तुहनो पउणु पाणी बैसंतरु गावै राजा धरमु दुआरे ॥

Gāvahi ṯuhno pa▫uṇ pāṇī baisanṯar gāvai rājā ḏẖaram ḏu▫āre.

The praanic wind, water and fire sing; the Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ

गावहि चितु गुपतु लिखि जाणहि लिखि लिखि धरमु वीचारे ॥

Gāvahi cẖiṯ gupaṯ likẖ jāṇėh likẖ likẖ ḏẖaram vīcẖāre.

Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who record actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who judges this record sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਈਸਰੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ

गावहि ईसरु बरमा देवी सोहनि सदा सवारे ॥

Gāvahi īsar barmā ḏevī sohan saḏā savāre.

Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned, sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਇੰਦ ਇਦਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ

गावहि इंद इदासणि बैठे देवतिआ दरि नाले ॥

Gāvahi inḏ iḏāsaṇ baiṯẖe ḏeviṯi▫ā ḏar nāle.

Indra, seated upon His Throne, sings with the deities at Your Door.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸਾਧ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ

गावहि सिध समाधी अंदरि गावनि साध विचारे ॥

Gāvahi siḏẖ samāḏẖī anḏar gāvan sāḏẖ vicẖāre.

The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing; the Saadhus sing in contemplation.


ਗਾਵਨਿ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ

गावनि जती सती संतोखी गावहि वीर करारे ॥

Gāvan jaṯī saṯī sanṯokẖī gāvahi vīr karāre.

The celibates, the fanatics, the peacefully accepting and the fearless warriors sing.


ਗਾਵਨਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ

गावनि पंडित पड़नि रखीसर जुगु जुगु वेदा नाले ॥

Gāvan pandiṯ paṛan rakẖīsar jug jug veḏā nāle.

The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਮੋਹਣੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਨਿ ਸੁਰਗਾ ਮਛ ਪਇਆਲੇ

गावहि मोहणीआ मनु मोहनि सुरगा मछ पइआले ॥

Gāvahi mohṇī▫ā man mohan surgā macẖẖ pa▫i▫āle.

The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in this world, in paradise, and in the underworld of the subconscious sing.


ਗਾਵਨਿ ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਏ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਲੇ

गावनि रतन उपाए तेरे अठसठि तीरथ नाले ॥

Gāvan raṯan upā▫e ṯere aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath nāle.

The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight holy places of pilgrimage sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਚਾਰੇ

गावहि जोध महाबल सूरा गावहि खाणी चारे ॥

Gāvahi joḏẖ mahābal sūrā gāvahi kẖāṇī cẖāre.

The brave and mighty warriors sing; the spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੇ ਧਾਰੇ

गावहि खंड मंडल वरभंडा करि करि रखे धारे ॥

Gāvahi kẖand mandal varbẖandā kar kar rakẖe ḏẖāre.

The planets, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing.


ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧੁਨੋ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ

सेई तुधुनो गावहि जो तुधु भावनि रते तेरे भगत रसाले ॥

Se▫ī ṯuḏẖuno gāvahi jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvan raṯe ṯere bẖagaṯ rasāle.

They alone sing, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with the Nectar of Your Essence.


ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ

होरि केते गावनि से मै चिति न आवनि नानकु किआ वीचारे ॥

Hor keṯe gāvan se mai cẖiṯ na āvan Nānak ki▫ā vīcẖāre.

So many others sing, they do not come to mind. O Nanak, how can I consider them all?


ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ

सोई सोई सदा सचु साहिबु साचा साची नाई ॥

So▫ī so▫ī saḏā sacẖ sāhib sācẖā sācẖī nā▫ī.

That True Lord is True, Forever True, and True is His Name.


ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ

है भी होसी जाइ न जासी रचना जिनि रचाई ॥

Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī racẖnā jin racẖā▫ī.

He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs.


ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ

रंगी रंगी भाती करि करि जिनसी माइआ जिनि उपाई ॥

Rangī rangī bẖāṯī kar kar jinsī mā▫i▫ā jin upā▫ī.

He created the world, with its various colors, species of beings, and the variety of Maya.


ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ

करि करि वेखै कीता आपणा जिव तिस दी वडिआई ॥

Kar kar vekẖai kīṯā āpṇā jiv ṯis ḏī vadi▫ā▫ī.

Having created the creation, He watches over it Himself, by His Greatness.


ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਸੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਈ

जो तिसु भावै सोई करसी हुकमु न करणा जाई ॥

Jo ṯis bẖāvai so▫ī karsī hukam na karṇā jā▫ī.

He does whatever He pleases. No order can be issued to Him.


ਸੋ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਹਣੁ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੨੭॥

सो पातिसाहु साहा पातिसाहिबु नानक रहणु रजाई ॥२७॥

So pāṯisāhu sāhā pāṯisāhib Nānak rahaṇ rajā▫ī. ||27||

He is the King, the King of kings, the Supreme Lord and Master of kings. Nanak remains subject to His Will. ||27||


ਮੁੰਦਾ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸਰਮੁ ਪਤੁ ਝੋਲੀ ਧਿਆਨ ਕੀ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ

मुंदा संतोखु सरमु पतु झोली धिआन की करहि बिभूति ॥

Munḏa sanṯokẖ saram paṯ jẖolī ḏẖi▫ān kī karahi bibẖūṯ.

Make contentment your ear-rings, humility your begging bowl, and meditation the ashes you apply to your body.


ਖਿੰਥਾ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੁਆਰੀ ਕਾਇਆ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਡੰਡਾ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ

खिंथा कालु कुआरी काइआ जुगति डंडा परतीति ॥

Kẖinthā kāl ku▫ārī kā▫i▫ā jugaṯ dandā parṯīṯ.

Let the remembrance of death be the patched coat you wear, let the purity of virginity be your way in the world, and let faith in the Lord be your walking stick.


ਆਈ ਪੰਥੀ ਸਗਲ ਜਮਾਤੀ ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ

आई पंथी सगल जमाती मनि जीतै जगु जीतु ॥

Ā▫ī panthī sagal jamāṯī man jīṯai jag jīṯ.

See the brotherhood of all mankind as the highest order of Yogis; conquer your own mind, and conquer the world.


ਆਦੇਸੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਆਦੇਸੁ

आदेसु तिसै आदेसु ॥

Āḏes ṯisai āḏes.

I bow to Him, I humbly bow.


ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥੨੮॥

आदि अनीलु अनादि अनाहति जुगु जुगु एको वेसु ॥२८॥

Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug eko ves. ||28||

The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||28||


ਭੁਗਤਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦਇਆ ਭੰਡਾਰਣਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਵਾਜਹਿ ਨਾਦ

भुगति गिआनु दइआ भंडारणि घटि घटि वाजहि नाद ॥

Bẖugaṯ gi▫ān ḏa▫i▫ā bẖandāraṇ gẖat gẖat vājėh nāḏ.

Let spiritual wisdom be your food, and compassion your attendant. The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates in each and every heart.


ਆਪਿ ਨਾਥੁ ਨਾਥੀ ਸਭ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਅਵਰਾ ਸਾਦ

आपि नाथु नाथी सभ जा की रिधि सिधि अवरा साद ॥

Āp nāth nāthī sabẖ jā kī riḏẖ siḏẖ avrā sāḏ.

He Himself is the Supreme Master of all; wealth and miraculous spiritual powers, and all other external tastes and pleasures, are all like beads on a string.


ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ਦੁਇ ਕਾਰ ਚਲਾਵਹਿ ਲੇਖੇ ਆਵਹਿ ਭਾਗ

संजोगु विजोगु दुइ कार चलावहि लेखे आवहि भाग ॥

Sanjog vijog ḏu▫e kār cẖalāvėh lekẖe āvahi bẖāg.

Union with Him, and separation from Him, come by His Will. We come to receive what is written in our destiny.

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib
 
The great mystery, how can see you something in all, when that something, as in my case, as in most cases has been replaced by something else. How to see God in all, if God itself cannot be described, what then are you looking for? To be blunt, how can one see God in another if one cannot see it in the self? To anyone that feels they have a deep and meaningful relationship with the almighty, to those that talk to God, I suggest you are talking and having a deeper relationship with a small, tiny aspect of what is God, and to boot, that is highly personal, and individual, as individual as a fingerprint. The point in question is should one preach one's own understanding, I have no problem with sharing, but to stand on a pedestal and insist ones own personal relationship with a tiny fragment of the almighty, represents some sort of universal view that needs to be embraced and understood is sheer vanity, again, speaking solely for myself.
 

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
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sure I can, love is when you feel another's happiness and pain, and you do what you can to assist or rejoice. This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool. One can only share.
 
ਆਖਹਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਤੈ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ

आखहि गोपी तै गोविंद ॥

Ākẖahi gopī ṯai govinḏ.

The Gopis and Krishna speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਈਸਰ ਆਖਹਿ ਸਿਧ

आखहि ईसर आखहि सिध ॥

Ākẖahi īsar ākẖahi siḏẖ.

Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਬੁਧ

आखहि केते कीते बुध ॥

Ākẖahi keṯe kīṯe buḏẖ.

The many created Buddhas speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਦਾਨਵ ਆਖਹਿ ਦੇਵ

आखहि दानव आखहि देव ॥

Ākẖahi ḏānav ākẖahi ḏev.

The demons speak, the demi-gods speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵ

आखहि सुरि नर मुनि जन सेव ॥

Ākẖahi sur nar mun jan sev.

The spiritual warriors, the heavenly beings, the silent sages, the humble and serviceful speak.


ਕੇਤੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਆਖਣਿ ਪਾਹਿ

केते आखहि आखणि पाहि ॥

Keṯe ākẖahi ākẖaṇ pāhi.

Many speak and try to describe Him.


ਕੇਤੇ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਹਿ

केते कहि कहि उठि उठि जाहि ॥

Keṯe kahi kahi uṯẖ uṯẖ jāhi.

Many have spoken of Him over and over again, and have then arisen and departed.


ਏਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਰੇਹਿ

एते कीते होरि करेहि ॥

Ėṯe kīṯe hor karehi.

If He were to create as many again as there already are,


ਤਾ ਆਖਿ ਸਕਹਿ ਕੇਈ ਕੇਇ

ता आखि न सकहि केई केइ ॥

Ŧā ākẖ na sakahi ke▫ī ke▫e.

even then, they could not describe Him.


ਜੇਵਡੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੇਵਡੁ ਹੋਇ

जेवडु भावै तेवडु होइ ॥

Jevad bẖāvai ṯevad ho▫e.

He is as Great as He wishes to be.


ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੋਇ

नानक जाणै साचा सोइ ॥

Nānak jāṇai sācẖā so▫e.

O Nanak, the True Lord knows.


ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ

जे को आखै बोलुविगाड़ु ॥

Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ.

If anyone presumes to describe God,


ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥

ता लिखीऐ सिरि गावारा गावारु ॥२६॥

Ŧā likī▫ai sir gāvārā gāvār. ||26||

he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26||


ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲੇ

सो दरु केहा सो घरु केहा जितु बहि सरब समाले ॥

So ḏar kehā so gẖar kehā jiṯ bahi sarab samāle.

Where is that Gate, and where is that Dwelling, in which You sit and take care of all?


ਵਾਜੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ

वाजे नाद अनेक असंखा केते वावणहारे ॥

vāje nāḏ anek asankẖā keṯe vāvaṇhāre.

The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there, and countless musicians play on all sorts of instruments there.


ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਗ ਪਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਕਹੀਅਨਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ

केते राग परी सिउ कहीअनि केते गावणहारे ॥

Keṯe rāg parī si▫o kahī▫an keṯe gāvaṇhāre.

So many Ragas, so many musicians singing there.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਤੁਹਨੋ ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਆਰੇ

गावहि तुहनो पउणु पाणी बैसंतरु गावै राजा धरमु दुआरे ॥

Gāvahi ṯuhno pa▫uṇ pāṇī baisanṯar gāvai rājā ḏẖaram ḏu▫āre.

The praanic wind, water and fire sing; the Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ

गावहि चितु गुपतु लिखि जाणहि लिखि लिखि धरमु वीचारे ॥

Gāvahi cẖiṯ gupaṯ likẖ jāṇėh likẖ likẖ ḏẖaram vīcẖāre.

Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who record actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who judges this record sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਈਸਰੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ

गावहि ईसरु बरमा देवी सोहनि सदा सवारे ॥

Gāvahi īsar barmā ḏevī sohan saḏā savāre.

Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned, sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਇੰਦ ਇਦਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ

गावहि इंद इदासणि बैठे देवतिआ दरि नाले ॥

Gāvahi inḏ iḏāsaṇ baiṯẖe ḏeviṯi▫ā ḏar nāle.

Indra, seated upon His Throne, sings with the deities at Your Door.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸਾਧ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ

गावहि सिध समाधी अंदरि गावनि साध विचारे ॥

Gāvahi siḏẖ samāḏẖī anḏar gāvan sāḏẖ vicẖāre.

The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing; the Saadhus sing in contemplation.


ਗਾਵਨਿ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ

गावनि जती सती संतोखी गावहि वीर करारे ॥

Gāvan jaṯī saṯī sanṯokẖī gāvahi vīr karāre.

The celibates, the fanatics, the peacefully accepting and the fearless warriors sing.


ਗਾਵਨਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ

गावनि पंडित पड़नि रखीसर जुगु जुगु वेदा नाले ॥

Gāvan pandiṯ paṛan rakẖīsar jug jug veḏā nāle.

The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਮੋਹਣੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਨਿ ਸੁਰਗਾ ਮਛ ਪਇਆਲੇ

गावहि मोहणीआ मनु मोहनि सुरगा मछ पइआले ॥

Gāvahi mohṇī▫ā man mohan surgā macẖẖ pa▫i▫āle.

The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in this world, in paradise, and in the underworld of the subconscious sing.


ਗਾਵਨਿ ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਏ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਲੇ

गावनि रतन उपाए तेरे अठसठि तीरथ नाले ॥

Gāvan raṯan upā▫e ṯere aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath nāle.

The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight holy places of pilgrimage sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਚਾਰੇ

गावहि जोध महाबल सूरा गावहि खाणी चारे ॥

Gāvahi joḏẖ mahābal sūrā gāvahi kẖāṇī cẖāre.

The brave and mighty warriors sing; the spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing.


ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੇ ਧਾਰੇ

गावहि खंड मंडल वरभंडा करि करि रखे धारे ॥

Gāvahi kẖand mandal varbẖandā kar kar rakẖe ḏẖāre.

The planets, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing.


ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧੁਨੋ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ

सेई तुधुनो गावहि जो तुधु भावनि रते तेरे भगत रसाले ॥

Se▫ī ṯuḏẖuno gāvahi jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvan raṯe ṯere bẖagaṯ rasāle.

They alone sing, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with the Nectar of Your Essence.


ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ

होरि केते गावनि से मै चिति न आवनि नानकु किआ वीचारे ॥

Hor keṯe gāvan se mai cẖiṯ na āvan Nānak ki▫ā vīcẖāre.

So many others sing, they do not come to mind. O Nanak, how can I consider them all?


ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ

सोई सोई सदा सचु साहिबु साचा साची नाई ॥

So▫ī so▫ī saḏā sacẖ sāhib sācẖā sācẖī nā▫ī.

That True Lord is True, Forever True, and True is His Name.


ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ

है भी होसी जाइ न जासी रचना जिनि रचाई ॥

Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī racẖnā jin racẖā▫ī.

He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs.


ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ

रंगी रंगी भाती करि करि जिनसी माइआ जिनि उपाई ॥

Rangī rangī bẖāṯī kar kar jinsī mā▫i▫ā jin upā▫ī.

He created the world, with its various colors, species of beings, and the variety of Maya.


ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ

करि करि वेखै कीता आपणा जिव तिस दी वडिआई ॥

Kar kar vekẖai kīṯā āpṇā jiv ṯis ḏī vadi▫ā▫ī.

Having created the creation, He watches over it Himself, by His Greatness.


ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਸੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਈ

जो तिसु भावै सोई करसी हुकमु न करणा जाई ॥

Jo ṯis bẖāvai so▫ī karsī hukam na karṇā jā▫ī.

He does whatever He pleases. No order can be issued to Him.


ਸੋ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਹਣੁ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੨੭॥

सो पातिसाहु साहा पातिसाहिबु नानक रहणु रजाई ॥२७॥

So pāṯisāhu sāhā pāṯisāhib Nānak rahaṇ rajā▫ī. ||27||

He is the King, the King of kings, the Supreme Lord and Master of kings. Nanak remains subject to His Will. ||27||


ਮੁੰਦਾ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸਰਮੁ ਪਤੁ ਝੋਲੀ ਧਿਆਨ ਕੀ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ

मुंदा संतोखु सरमु पतु झोली धिआन की करहि बिभूति ॥

Munḏa sanṯokẖ saram paṯ jẖolī ḏẖi▫ān kī karahi bibẖūṯ.

Make contentment your ear-rings, humility your begging bowl, and meditation the ashes you apply to your body.


ਖਿੰਥਾ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੁਆਰੀ ਕਾਇਆ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਡੰਡਾ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ

खिंथा कालु कुआरी काइआ जुगति डंडा परतीति ॥

Kẖinthā kāl ku▫ārī kā▫i▫ā jugaṯ dandā parṯīṯ.

Let the remembrance of death be the patched coat you wear, let the purity of virginity be your way in the world, and let faith in the Lord be your walking stick.


ਆਈ ਪੰਥੀ ਸਗਲ ਜਮਾਤੀ ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ

आई पंथी सगल जमाती मनि जीतै जगु जीतु ॥

Ā▫ī panthī sagal jamāṯī man jīṯai jag jīṯ.

See the brotherhood of all mankind as the highest order of Yogis; conquer your own mind, and conquer the world.


ਆਦੇਸੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਆਦੇਸੁ

आदेसु तिसै आदेसु ॥

Āḏes ṯisai āḏes.

I bow to Him, I humbly bow.


ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥੨੮॥

आदि अनीलु अनादि अनाहति जुगु जुगु एको वेसु ॥२८॥

Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug eko ves. ||28||

The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||28||


ਭੁਗਤਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦਇਆ ਭੰਡਾਰਣਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਵਾਜਹਿ ਨਾਦ

भुगति गिआनु दइआ भंडारणि घटि घटि वाजहि नाद ॥

Bẖugaṯ gi▫ān ḏa▫i▫ā bẖandāraṇ gẖat gẖat vājėh nāḏ.

Let spiritual wisdom be your food, and compassion your attendant. The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates in each and every heart.


ਆਪਿ ਨਾਥੁ ਨਾਥੀ ਸਭ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਅਵਰਾ ਸਾਦ

आपि नाथु नाथी सभ जा की रिधि सिधि अवरा साद ॥

Āp nāth nāthī sabẖ jā kī riḏẖ siḏẖ avrā sāḏ.

He Himself is the Supreme Master of all; wealth and miraculous spiritual powers, and all other external tastes and pleasures, are all like beads on a string.


ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ਦੁਇ ਕਾਰ ਚਲਾਵਹਿ ਲੇਖੇ ਆਵਹਿ ਭਾਗ

संजोगु विजोगु दुइ कार चलावहि लेखे आवहि भाग ॥

Sanjog vijog ḏu▫e kār cẖalāvėh lekẖe āvahi bẖāg.

Union with Him, and separation from Him, come by His Will. We come to receive what is written in our destiny.

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib
 
The great mystery, how can see you something in all, when that something, as in my case, as in most cases has been replaced by something else. How to see God in all, if God itself cannot be described, what then are you looking for? To be blunt, how can one see God in another if one cannot see it in the self? To anyone that feels they have a deep and meaningful relationship with the almighty, to those that talk to God, I suggest you are talking and having a deeper relationship with a minute, tiny aspect of what is God, and to boot, that is highly personal, and individual, as individual as a fingerprint. The point in question is should one preach one's own understanding, I have no problem with sharing, but to stand on a pedestal and insist ones own personal relationship with a tiny fragment of the almighty, represents some sort of universal view that needs to be embraced and understood is sheer vanity, again, speaking solely for myself.


ok, so now we're getting somewhere....

you wrote:
sure I can, love is when you feel another's happiness and pain, and you do what you can to assist or rejoice. This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool. One can only share.

so human love is something you can describe to me...but love for god is something beyond description...

ok, but
love is when you feel another's happiness and pain
can you really feel someone's happiness and pain? you may see the physcial aspect of it...from their tears of pain or joy and any other physical phenomena that is occuring due to the happiness and pain...

but can you really feel what they're feeling? all you're makiing is an observation right? and then feeling your 'own' pain or happiness....

or is their pain and happiness passing through your own being...and being shared?
explain this further if you can...

But is that Love?..i still have no idea what love feels like for you...its just words like you've said in previous posts....just words...

i want to know in this court of logic what this human love is that you're describing...comon harry ji, share it so can i can experience the love you feel...i want to live it, breath it through your logic and language...

or is this human Love just not describable...?

but in our wanting to express it...and share it....we write, and we talk and we try....we pour our hearts out and try to express it in our actions...

yet, even then...no matter what you use, poetry, flowery talk, nice gestures...a hug..
its still your personal experience...deep within, which no one really knows about...but you...you know its there...you live besides it...its part of you..its you...

if you can love, maybe so can I, and others also....something we're all maybe able to do...naturally...

therefore i don't want you to prove it to me, or help me understand it in the court of logic, maybe i just need some inspiration to help me recognise it within myself also...

And that's all we can do, try to inspire each other...hence the descriptions, and flowery language which fails miserably...but we try nonetheless :)

Seeing God in all..starts with feeling that love deep inside you...because if you can Love, then so can everyone else...maybe that love is the Same within All....One...a big ocean that transcends the boundaries defined by the Ego...

so many things to contemplate lol

Good Night Harry Ji
 

chazSingh

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Any luck Harry Ji in Showing me, proving to me, and making me understand, feel and breath this 'love' you feel in this court of logic we are in?

Common dude...please try, without telling me all the nice 'actions' you do...what drives the actions? what is that feeling?

The court of logic can quite easily decide that all your lovely actions are a disguise for other motives...wanting of your inheritance, or something else...prove to me that your love is real...and show me it exists...in this court of logic...i want to feel what you feel or at least know for sure it's real...and not just words and actions..
 

Harry Haller

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Chazji,

just to save a lot of time, can you sum what you wish me to answer, and what point you are making with the question, and I will do my best to reply.
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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Chazji,

just to save a lot of time, can you sum what you wish me to answer, and what point you are making with the question, and I will do my best to reply.


ok

so, the following are examples of the kind of things you write to someone that is making some form of attempt to explain or portray what they are experiencing or have experienced...

I do not wish to google it, I want you to back up all your lovely flowery writing with some facts, else all it is is just flowery writing with no substance,


you write as if you know all the answers, yet seem unable to back this up with any substance, I think I have been quite tactful and patient, as a moderator I have to ensure that any definitive writings are backed up with definitive proof,

having said that, flowery writing, ie, writing that on the face of it sounds good, but has no substance, achieves nothing, it is surface writing, purely for the ego, SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it,

Yet...
When it came to describing your 'love' ... the actual substance of love that you feel/experience within....you couldnt...you failed miserably.

You tried to prove your love with 'actions' that you carry out and tried to explain why you do those actions...yet this proved nothing...could be a total lie, and those actions can be based on other rmotives..no one knows but you.

Anyone that somehow in their lives have never tasted love...felt or experienced it...would have walked away from your descriptions, your attempt at proving it or describing it...with absolutely no idea what love would feel like or what it's experience would be like...or whether your love is true and real

Yet above you seem to think that people who try to explain things that are just as difficult to explain and portray 'like the love for your parents'...that they should be able to quite easily in this court of logic????

your words " SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it,"

but you then say "This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool"

This is blatant contradiction....how do you expect people on the forum to interact with you...answer your questions...or at least try to, when you come across so completely confused yourself?

What part of seek God within yourself...God is in your heart....God is love...can be proved? God knows all, is in all, is everything..is visible, yet invisible...

your above writing seems to suggest that everything in SGGS is factual, and can be proved...then you suggest it can't, then it can...then it can't

major confusion...

me asking you to provide and describe and show your 'real' love for your parents was my attempt at making you understand just how difficult these things are when trying to share them...
that Language / Logic / falls completely flat on its face when it comes to stuff like this..

One has to experience the stuff for themselves...and that's the only thing we can do on this journey to Waheguru...
 

Harry Haller

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I do not wish to google it, I want you to back up all your lovely flowery writing with some facts, else all it is is just flowery writing with no substance,

you write as if you know all the answers, yet seem unable to back this up with any substance, I think I have been quite tactful and patient, as a moderator I have to ensure that any definitive writings are backed up with definitive proof,

having said that, flowery writing, ie, writing that on the face of it sounds good, but has no substance, achieves nothing, it is surface writing, purely for the ego, SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it,

I am not quite sure why are quoting this, as it has been taken completely out of context, the question here was is God perfect if he still discovering, and I am absolutely within rights to question this as it goes against the Sikh view of God. If you definitively say that God is not perfect within Sikhism, then what, as a moderator, do you expect me to do or say? please tell me, as I am here to serve this forum, not stamp my own opinion on it. As you have taken the gauntlet, perhaps you can explain this imperfection of God to me, is God still learning? does he learn from us, his creation?
Yet...
When it came to describing your 'love' ... the actual substance of love that you feel/experience within....you couldnt...you failed miserably.
that is your opinion, you are of course welcome to it.

You tried to prove your love with 'actions' that you carry out and tried to explain why you do those actions...yet this proved nothing...could be a total lie, and those actions can be based on other rmotives..no one knows but you.

I assume anything brought to this forum is true, or there is no real point posting, but then you know what they say, a liar does not believe anyone else.

Anyone that somehow in their lives have never tasted love...felt or experienced it...would have walked away from your descriptions, your attempt at proving it or describing it...with absolutely no idea what love would feel like or what it's experience would be like...or whether your love is true and real

There are many different types of love, it is a discussion in itself, I have nothing against love, but your argument is working against you, if it cannot be described, than how can it be made to sound so definitive, to be honest this whole argument is moot, all I am asking is that users make it clear these are their own personal experiences and to use the words carefully so it does not sound like preaching, do you have anything against this?

Yet above you seem to think that people who try to explain things that are just as difficult to explain and portray 'like the love for your parents'...that they should be able to quite easily in this court of logic????

We are going round in circles here, its very simple, put yourself on a pedestal and make definitive universal statements about God, and expect to be questioned, again, do you have a problem with this? You do not write in this fashion, your writing is humble and informative, I learn a lot from it, it is not put up there as fact, so why are you trying to stop me from encouraging others to write like you?

your words " SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it,"

again, a quote out of context, but I stand by what I said, if you insist your way is the universal way then be prepared to back it up. If it cannot be backed up then just write and share it, like I wrote and shared the love for my parents, at no point did I insist it was the only way to love ones parents.

This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool"

taking my quotes to construct a platform to suit your agenda is your business, maybe if you ceased that and just tried to learn from what is being shared, as I try and do from your writings, it might make sense. I have come to the conclusion that human earthly love is different to the love for the divine and the love that is mentioned in the SGGS, my thoughts, my conclusion. Also note that I rarely write in my own capacity anymore, no more jokes, no more fun, I just want this forum to have some order and flow. If you feel I am not achieving this, or holding it back, then please let me know, publicly, its not a problem, we are all learning.

This is blatant contradiction....how do you expect people on the forum to interact with you...answer your questions...or at least try to, when you come across so completely confused yourself?

If I come across through your carefully chosen quotes in your carefully chosen order as confused, I apologise. Are you not confused? do you know it all? well I am pleased for you, for me, no I do not know it all, I am confused, that is why I question, I have no problem being known as confused, I would rather that than come across as an expert. I am no expert, I have never pretended to be.

your above writing seems to suggest that everything in SGGS is factual, and can be proved...then you suggest it can't, then it can...then it can't

Again, if I have, I make no excuses for it, I write honestly, if that honesty comes across as it does, and is difficult to understand, I apologise.

me asking you to provide and describe and show your 'real' love for your parents was my attempt at making you understand just how difficult these things are when trying to share them...
that Language / Logic / falls completely flat on its face when it comes to stuff like this..

One has to experience the stuff for themselves...and that's the only thing we can do on this journey to Waheguru...

I realise how difficult these things are, but to come back to the main point, share everything, there is no problem with anything that anyone writes, however if I feel proselytising is taking place then I will comment, also note, the amount of censorship on this forum is minimal, posts do not get deleted on the whole, or edited, or interfered with, they just just questioned and commented on, I am open to other suggestions if you feel I am out of order for my query on the perfection of God.
 
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Sikhilove

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You have yet to answer a single question I have asked of you, you post links to websites that laud a living Guru, you write as if you know all the answers, yet seem unable to back this up with any substance, I think I have been quite tactful and patient, as a moderator I have to ensure that any definitive writings are backed up with definitive proof, otherwise, its quite easy, stop writing definitively, try using the words, 'in my opinion', or 'it is my thinking', but you don't you keep posting huge tracts of definitive statements that you then attribute to the SGGS. I would be failing in my job if this was not pointed out, it is nothing personal.



Yes it does, and how that is interpreted is up to the individual, having said that, flowery writing, ie, writing that on the face of it sounds good, but has no substance, achieves nothing, it is surface writing, purely for the ego, SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it, otherwise we will have a forum filled with everyone's personal opinion that no one feels the need to substantiate, there are other forums that operate like this, not this one.



Thank you for your opinion but I am not a scientist, I find the SGGS full of worldly logic, I am surprised you have written this. Are you saying the SGGS has no worldly logic?



You have said many times God is learning, what other conclusion can one draw from such a statement? You see this is the problem with surface flowery writing, you forget that your words actually mean things if you follow them through, do you not wish me to take your writings seriously?
Should I just read them and bow down before your wisdom? If god is learning then he is not perfect, would you not say? Above you have said god discovers, again, if god is still discovering, then he is not perfect, perfection already knows, does not need to discover, please clarify this.



How can I twist this statement that you made below



discover verb
UK /dɪˈskʌv.ər/ US /dɪˈskʌv.ɚ/
[ T ] to find information, a place, or an object, especially for the first time:

If God is perfect then he knows all, discover is not a word that can be used for a perfect god.

Please clarify this, thank you.
 


Flowery is a word I used, I would say it describes writing that is full of buzz words but has no substance or fact.

I had answered all of your questions, you have Chosen not to acknowledge or attempt to understand them. People can only learn if they choose to learn.

And now I bow out of dialogue with you as the Guru also instructs not to argue with people who choose not to listen.

God bless you
 
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Harry Haller

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I have


I had answered all of your questions, you have Chosen not to acknowledge or attempt to understand them. People can only learn if they choose to learn.

And now I now out of dialogue with you as the Guru also instructs not to argue with people who choose not to listen.

God bless you

Are you here to impart that learning? unopposed and without offering any substance? posting links to living Gurus sites that you yourself have confirmed as the source of your current understanding?

NEW RED FLASH REVOLVING SIGNAL WARNING LIGHT MAGNETIC 12 VOLT SPARES2U | eBay

as you have given the standard answers, and now refuse to debate a point you are unable to backup, you may be interested in the above, I hear they are very popular in India.
 
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Sikhilove

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ok

so, the following are examples of the kind of things you write to someone that is making some form of attempt to explain or portray what they are experiencing or have experienced...

I do not wish to google it, I want you to back up all your lovely flowery writing with some facts, else all it is is just flowery writing with no substance,


you write as if you know all the answers, yet seem unable to back this up with any substance, I think I have been quite tactful and patient, as a moderator I have to ensure that any definitive writings are backed up with definitive proof,

having said that, flowery writing, ie, writing that on the face of it sounds good, but has no substance, achieves nothing, it is surface writing, purely for the ego, SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it,

Yet...
When it came to describing your 'love' ... the actual substance of love that you feel/experience within....you couldnt...you failed miserably.

You tried to prove your love with 'actions' that you carry out and tried to explain why you do those actions...yet this proved nothing...could be a total lie, and those actions can be based on other rmotives..no one knows but you.

Anyone that somehow in their lives have never tasted love...felt or experienced it...would have walked away from your descriptions, your attempt at proving it or describing it...with absolutely no idea what love would feel like or what it's experience would be like...or whether your love is true and real

Yet above you seem to think that people who try to explain things that are just as difficult to explain and portray 'like the love for your parents'...that they should be able to quite easily in this court of logic????

your words " SGGS is not written in that fashion, it is written to prompt deep thinking, it is factual, it can be backed up, if you are not prepared to backup what you are writing, then don't write it,"

but you then say "This is not the same love that one can have for Ek Onkar, in my view, as that love cannot be described, and I do believe anyone who attempts is a fool"

This is blatant contradiction....how do you expect people on the forum to interact with you...answer your questions...or at least try to, when you come across so completely confused yourself?

What part of seek God within yourself...God is in your heart....God is love...can be proved? God knows all, is in all, is everything..is visible, yet invisible...

your above writing seems to suggest that everything in SGGS is factual, and can be proved...then you suggest it can't, then it can...then it can't

major confusion...

me asking you to provide and describe and show your 'real' love for your parents was my attempt at making you understand just how difficult these things are when trying to share them...
that Language / Logic / falls completely flat on its face when it comes to stuff like this..

One has to experience the stuff for themselves...and that's the only thing we can do on this journey to Waheguru...

Awesome post
 

Original

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Sikhilove - nice to hear from you !

Remember, from a dialectical perspective God cannot be proved or disproved. Religion is something that is built on trust, faith and belief of the individual. And, you have that, all else is evolution, meaning growth, development and realisation.

We all grow spiritually and intellectually. The operative organ for intellectual growth is the mind [manmukh], spirtual growth is assigned to the heart. Alone you know, alone you feel, alone you are aware of the presence of the God of Nanak in the inner-most chamber of your heart [gurmukh]. Consider yourself fortunate therefore and pray for those who venture endlessly outward when the true journey is "really" inward.

You don't have to win every argument, just remember to stay true to yourself. It is the self that is part of the bigger self, meaning, truth [satnam]. Baba Nanak demonstrated that when he "philosophically" pointed out to Sidh Gosht [community of philosophers] that arguments are not about winning and persuading people, but about "truth" seeking. The arguer's first obligation is to truth seeking and not winning the argument. He went on to show them that one can only know truth if one has truth in one's heart in the first place ? Asa Di Vaar captures it nicely, thus, "sach ta'n per janyia ye ridha sach hoya" [SGGSJ, 468]. The underlying factor was, if one's starting point is unknown, conclusion and intermediate steps are made up of that unknown, how can the resulting consistency ever become knowledge ?

You writing on SPN, me writing on SPN is not a choice nor a concession but the Will of Akal Purakh [AP] to keep us connected to the shabad, meaning, God.

Take care !
 
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Sikhilove

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May 11, 2016
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Sikhilove - nice to hear from you !

Remember, from a dialectical perspective God cannot be proved or disproved. Religion is something that is built on trust, faith and belief of the individual. And, you have that, all else is evolution, meaning growth, development and realisation.

We all grow spiritually and intellectually. The operative organ for intellectual growth is the mind [manmukh], spirtual growth is assigned to the heart. Alone you know, alone you feel, alone you are aware of the presence of the God of Nanak in the inner-most chamber of your heart [gurmukh]. Consider yourself fortunate therefore and pray for those who venture endlessly outward when the true journey is "really" inward.

You don't have to win every argument, just remember to stay true to yourself. It is the self that is part of the bigger self, meaning, truth [satnam]. Baba Nanak demonstrated that when he "philosophically" pointed out to Sidh Gosht [community of philosophers] that arguments are not about winning and persuading people, but are about "truth" seeking. The arguer's first obligation is to truth seeking and not winning the argument. He went on to show them that one can only know truth if one has truth in one's heart in the first place ? Ada Di Vaar captures it nicely, thus, "sach ta'n per janyia ye ridha sach hoya" [SGGSJ, 468]. The underlying factor was, if one's starting point is unknown, conclusion and intermediate steps are made up of that unknown, how can the resulting consistency ever become knowledge ?

You writing on SPN, me writing on SPN is not a choice nor a concession but the Will of Akal Purakh [AP] to keep us connected to the shabad, meaning, God.

Take care !

Nice post :)
 

swarn bains

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Apr 8, 2012
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Let me my two paisa
This is how guru Nanak explains God. Those who cannot read gurmukhy just read the English words only. please give your comments

SGGS page 1035

ਅਰਬਦ ਨਰਬਦ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ॥

For billions of years, there was utter darkness.

ਧਰਣਿ ਨ ਗਗਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥

There was no earth or sky; there was infinite God; His rule prevailed.

ਨਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਨ ਚੰਦੁ ਨ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਇਦਾ ॥੧॥

There was no day or night, no moon or sun; God sat alone in absolute trance. ||1||

ਖਾਣੀ ਨ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਉਣ ਨ ਪਾਣੀ ॥

There were no sources of creation or sermon and no air or water.

ਓਪਤਿ ਖਪਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣੀ ॥

There was no creation or destruction, no coming or going.

ਖੰਡ ਪਤਾਲ ਸਪਤ ਨਹੀ ਸਾਗਰ ਨਦੀ ਨ ਨੀਰੁ ਵਹਾਇਦਾ ॥੨॥

There were no continents, underworld, seven seas, rivers or flowing water. ||2||

ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲਾ ॥

There was no heavenly being, no fish or the underworld.

ਦੋਜਕੁ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਖੈ ਕਾਲਾ ॥

There was no heaven or hell, no fear of death.

ਨਰਕੁ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਨਹੀ ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਇ ਨ ਜਾਇਦਾ ॥੩॥

There was no hell or heaven, no birth or death, no coming or going. ||3||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥

There was no deity

ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਸੈ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ॥

There was no one but One God.

ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜਨਮਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੪॥

There was no female or male, no social class or caste of birth; no one experienced pain or pleasure. ||4||
 

Original

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Sardar Swarn Singh Ji Bains,

Thank you for all that you do to spread the word of God. The burden on part the translator is greater than that on the beneficiary because the recipient of conveyance will in good "faith" accept whatever is conveyed. Let us look at few examples:

you write...

ਅਰਬਦ ਨਰਬਦ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ
For billions of years, there was utter darkness.

Here, I'd seriously question the specific meaning of ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ and perhaps go beyond the literal meaning [utter darkness] to take account of what the writer is "ideologically" [akal] trying to explain in terms of the spirit and not the letter. That is to say, "look people, the state at that time was, is and will forever be inconceivable full stop".

ਧਰਣਿ ਨ ਗਗਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
There was no earth or sky; there was infinite God; His rule prevailed.

...hukam is genderless ! hukam used in the above verse is to show that creation was "orderly" and not chaos. This would effect the literal translation of hukam as "order" synonymous with and is the Will of Akal Purakh.
ਨਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਨ ਚੰਦੁ ਨ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਇਦਾ ॥੧॥
There was no day or night, no moon or sun; God sat alone in absolute trance.

...the use of the word "alone" is your inference and not per verse, that's ok insofar you want to read it as such and guru Nanak has left it wide open for readers to make sense. Ideologically speaking its not. And, what your translation dose it destroys the ineffability within which Akal is. The word alone is indicative of the possible existence of another besides Akal, do you see !
 

swarn bains

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original jee I thank u for your generous comments. I write as per my intellect. may be it is not as high as many scholars who write about God on this site. I did transliteration, but to do the translation with explanation it takes thousand pages for one word or one line which you did. word dhandukara, means chaos, utter darkness, whirl wind, storm, cannot see anything cannot do any thing and many more as you like it. I am not a kathakar to lie with my teeth biting the tongue. Here is an example for your critique
children are playing. I am watching but I do not know how to play but I am jealous. I cannot see them playing. i want to stop them as well. So what I do ( URINATE ON THE FIELD). i HAVE NO OBJECTION TO YOU YOUR CRITIQUE BUT TO PROVE THAT i AM utterly WRONG. So from your critique it appears that I should stop doing that. But I will not stop because gurbani is multi facet. everyone translates it with what his or her mind thinks. your mind may be different than mine but I do put an effort which you also should do. my goal is that if many people translate gurbani and then we all join and come with a common translation then may be we could solve the riddle. I will tell you here
Waraan Te Vdhik Sggs page 1410 written by Baba Nanak. Utngi Upangi Upehri Gmbiri Gehry, Sdud Suhia kiv kari Nivan na jai thani
All sikh scholars including Sahib singh and sant singh khalsa who translated SGGS translate it as follows. They all copy what Sahib singh wrote. At least i put my own effort.
The woman tells her mother in-law that she cannot touch her feet because her breasts will touch the ground. Do you mean Baba is looking at her breasts and explaining it so. My translation si Baba say to the young woman; if you are not humble; how can you respect your mother in law?(Please do not change it. let the scholars see it )
I give you another one the last stanza from SGGS
Sabhe putar ragan ke athara das bees. they all copy from sahib singh and write that all 44 are the sons of God. who are all those 44. when i see sabhe that means to me is all. so I translate it all are the sons of God whether eighteen ten or twenty.
So far the social scholars were toying with God. I gave what I read and interpreted
Advise with your transliteration not a whole lot of story. thanks again
 
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Original

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Swarn Singh Ji -

God has chosen you to do Gurbani Vichar to the best of your ability and you do a fantastic job. When I get the time, I do try and read. I accept your translations, thank you. However, there are times, like today for instance, when I feel bit of tweaking will make it better and reflect true meaning, intent and purpose of the subject-matter. Accordingly, I carry out what is necessary.

I like what you write -

Much obliged
 

Sikhilove

Writer
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May 11, 2016
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Let me my two paisa
This is how guru Nanak explains God. Those who cannot read gurmukhy just read the English words only. please give your comments

SGGS page 1035

ਅਰਬਦ ਨਰਬਦ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ॥

For billions of years, there was utter darkness.

ਧਰਣਿ ਨ ਗਗਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥

There was no earth or sky; there was infinite God; His rule prevailed.

ਨਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਨ ਚੰਦੁ ਨ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਇਦਾ ॥੧॥

There was no day or night, no moon or sun; God sat alone in absolute trance. ||1||

ਖਾਣੀ ਨ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਉਣ ਨ ਪਾਣੀ ॥

There were no sources of creation or sermon and no air or water.

ਓਪਤਿ ਖਪਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣੀ ॥

There was no creation or destruction, no coming or going.

ਖੰਡ ਪਤਾਲ ਸਪਤ ਨਹੀ ਸਾਗਰ ਨਦੀ ਨ ਨੀਰੁ ਵਹਾਇਦਾ ॥੨॥

There were no continents, underworld, seven seas, rivers or flowing water. ||2||

ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲਾ ॥

There was no heavenly being, no fish or the underworld.

ਦੋਜਕੁ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਖੈ ਕਾਲਾ ॥

There was no heaven or hell, no fear of death.

ਨਰਕੁ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਨਹੀ ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਇ ਨ ਜਾਇਦਾ ॥੩॥

There was no hell or heaven, no birth or death, no coming or going. ||3||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥

There was no deity

ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਸੈ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ॥

There was no one but One God.

ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜਨਮਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੪॥

There was no female or male, no social class or caste of birth; no one experienced pain or pleasure. ||4||

The Nothingness..
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
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Swarn Singh Ji -

God has chosen you to do Gurbani Vichar to the best of your ability and you do a fantastic job. When I get the time, I do try and read. I accept your translations, thank you. However, there are times, like today for instance, when I feel bit of tweaking will make it better and reflect true meaning, intent and purpose of the subject-matter. Accordingly, I carry out what is necessary.

I like what you write -

Much obliged

We are lucky to have on this forum those that know the true meaning and are able to correct the rest of us, I am still awaiting your correction on my post regarding Ek Onkar, as I am still stuck on my own meaning rather than the true meaning, perhaps you could help me?

I think they do a bulk offer on those red lights on ebay.
 
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