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Is Hindu/Sikh A Valid Adherent?

Harry Haller

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(ĭn'kär-nā'shən) pronunciation
n.

The act of incarnating.
The condition of being incarnated.
Incarnation Christianity. The doctrine that the Son of God was conceived in the womb of Mary and that Jesus is true God and true man.
A bodily manifestation of a supernatural being.
One who is believed to personify a given abstract quality or idea.
A period of time passed in a given bodily form or condition: hopes for a better life in another incarnation.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent? reincarnation

Tuesday, January 31, 2012

nanakshahi-20120130-180006.png

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Ang 702Guru Arjan Dev JiRaag Jaithsree
Listen to the Hukamnama Audio Listen to Kirtan from this Hukam



gurmukhi-20120130-180006.png


English Translation:
Jaitsree, Fifth Mehl: After wandering through so many incarnations, I have come to Your Sanctuary. Save me - lift my body up out of the deep, dark pit of the world, and attach me to Your feet. ||1||Pause|| I do not know anything about spiritual wisdom, meditation or karma, and my way of life is not clean and pure. Please attach me to the hem of the robe of the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; help me to cross over the terrible river. ||1|| Comforts, riches and the sweet pleasures of Maya - do not implant these within your mind. Slave Nanak is satisfied and satiated by the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan; his only ornamentation is the love of the Lord's Name. ||2||8||12||



Punjabi Translation:
punjabi-20120130-180006.png


Hindi Hukamnama:
hindi-20120130-180006.png

Where is the reference "PARMATAMAA in Gurbanee?

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

BhagatSingh

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BhagatSinghji,

Its quite simple veerji, all references to rebirth are simple changes in personality, all references to animals are traits of animals we possess through evolution.
Harry ji
Go on. I think you can elaborate much more.

Prakash ji
The reference is in the following shabad on page 421:
ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਕੇਤਾ ਆਖਣੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਤਾ ਕੇ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
केता आखणु आखीऐ ता के अंत न जाणा ॥
Keṯā ākẖaṇ ākẖī▫ai ṯā ke anṯ na jāṇā.
No matter how much one may describe the Lord, His limits still cannot be known.

ਮੈ ਨਿਧਰਿਆ ਧਰ ਏਕ ਤੂੰ ਮੈ ਤਾਣੁ ਸਤਾਣਾ ॥੧॥
मै निधरिआ धर एक तूं मै ताणु सताणा ॥१॥
Mai niḏẖri▫ā ḏẖar ek ṯūʼn mai ṯāṇ saṯāṇā. ||1||
I am without any support; You, O Lord, are my only Support; You are my almighty power. ||1||

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਹੈ ਸਚ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ॥
नानक की अरदासि है सच नामि सुहेला ॥
Nānak kī arḏās hai sacẖ nām suhelā.
This is Nanak's prayer, that he may be adorned with the True Name.

ਆਪੁ ਗਇਆ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਮੇਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
आपु गइआ सोझी पई गुर सबदी मेला ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Āp ga▫i▫ā sojẖī pa▫ī gur sabḏī melā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
When self-conceit is eradicated, and understanding is obtained, one meets the Lord, through the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||1||Pause||

ਹਉਮੈ ਗਰਬੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
हउमै गरबु गवाईऐ पाईऐ वीचारु ॥
Ha▫umai garab gavā▫ī▫ai pā▫ī▫ai vīcẖār.
Abandoning egotism and pride, one obtains contemplative understanding.

ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਦੇ ਸਾਚੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
साहिब सिउ मनु मानिआ दे साचु अधारु ॥२॥
Sāhib si▫o man māni▫ā ḏe sācẖ aḏẖār. ||2||
When the mind surrenders to the Lord Master, He bestows the support of the Truth. ||2||

ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਸੇਵਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਈ ॥
अहिनिसि नामि संतोखीआ सेवा सचु साई ॥
Ahinis nām sanṯokẖī▫ā sevā sacẖ sā▫ī.
Day and night, remain content with the Naam, the Name of the Lord; that is the true service.

ਤਾ ਕਉ ਬਿਘਨੁ ਨ ਲਾਗਈ ਚਾਲੈ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੩॥
ता कउ बिघनु न लागई चालै हुकमि रजाई ॥३॥
Ŧā ka▫o bigẖan na lāg▫ī cẖālai hukam rajā▫ī. ||3||
No misfortune troubles one who follows the Command of the Lord's Will. ||3||

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਸੋ ਪਵੈ ਖਜਾਨੈ ॥
हुकमि रजाई जो चलै सो पवै खजानै ॥
Hukam rajā▫ī jo cẖalai so pavai kẖajānai.
One who follows the Command of the Lord's Will is taken into the Lord's Treasury.

ਖੋਟੇ ਠਵਰ ਨ ਪਾਇਨੀ ਰਲੇ ਜੂਠਾਨੈ ॥੪॥
खोटे ठवर न पाइनी रले जूठानै ॥४॥
Kẖote ṯẖavar na pā▫inī rale jūṯẖānai. ||4||
The counterfeit find no place there; they are mixed with the false ones. ||4||

ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਖਰਾ ਸਮਾਲੀਐ ਸਚੁ ਸਉਦਾ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
नित नित खरा समालीऐ सचु सउदा पाईऐ ॥
Niṯ niṯ kẖarā samālī▫ai sacẖ sa▫uḏā pā▫ī▫ai.
Forever and ever, the genuine coins are treasured; with them, the true merchandise is purchased.

ਖੋਟੇ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਨੀ ਲੇ ਅਗਨਿ ਜਲਾਈਐ ॥੫॥
खोटे नदरि न आवनी ले अगनि जलाईऐ ॥५॥
Kẖote naḏar na āvnī le agan jalā▫ī▫ai. ||5||
The false ones are not seen in the Lord's Treasury; they are seized and cast into the fire again. ||5||

ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥
जिनी आतमु चीनिआ परमातमु सोई ॥
Jinī āṯam cẖīni▫ā parmāṯam so▫ī.
Those who understand their own souls, are themselves the Supreme Soul.

ਏਕੋ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਫਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥
एको अम्रित बिरखु है फलु अम्रितु होई ॥६॥
Ėko amriṯ birakẖ hai fal amriṯ ho▫ī. ||6||
The One Lord is the tree of ambrosial nectar, which bears the ambrosial fruit. ||6||

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਫਲੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਚਾਖਿਆ ਸਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਅਘਾਈ ॥
अम्रित फलु जिनी चाखिआ सचि रहे अघाई ॥
Amriṯ fal jinī cẖākẖi▫ā sacẖ rahe agẖā▫ī.
Those who taste the ambrosial fruit remain satisfied with Truth.

ਤਿੰਨਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਰਸਨ ਰਸਾਈ ॥੭॥
तिंना भरमु न भेदु है हरि रसन रसाई ॥७॥
Ŧinnā bẖaram na bẖeḏ hai har rasan rasā▫ī. ||7||
They have no doubt or sense of separation - their tongues taste the divine taste. ||7||

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਆਇਆ ਚਲੁ ਸਦਾ ਰਜਾਈ ॥
हुकमि संजोगी आइआ चलु सदा रजाई ॥
Hukam sanjogī ā▫i▫ā cẖal saḏā rajā▫ī.
By His Command, and through your past actions, you came into the world; walk forever according to His Will.

ਅਉਗਣਿਆਰੇ ਕਉ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਾਨਕੈ ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਾਈ ॥੮॥੨੦॥
अउगणिआरे कउ गुणु नानकै सचु मिलै वडाई ॥८॥२०॥
A▫ogaṇi▫āre ka▫o guṇ nānkai sacẖ milai vadā▫ī. ||8||20||
Please, grant virtue to Nanak, the virtueless one; bless him with the glorious greatness of the Truth. ||8||20||
 
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Harry Haller

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Harry ji
Go on. I think you can elaborate much more.


I could, much more, however dear Veerjio I have already given my personal essence to yesterdays Hukamnama, given a dictionary reference to the word incarnation, and given you a brief statement of how I see the reincarnation concept in the SGGS, this could end up being a very one sided conversation unless you bring something to the party :grinningsingh:
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Hi Guys..Each so called "teeka-kaar..kathwachak, academic, gyani pandit jathedar whatever has been interpreting the word TINH(eh) siharee-tata-siharee-nanna meaning THEY..as TEEN..meaning THREE !! (WHAT a Collossal MISTAKE...and every and each academic etc beat the same drum....again and again..until NOW....and the word is so transaprent and clear !!
The word is in Mundawnni Mahalla Panjavan..Thaal vich TINH(eh) Vastu paiyo....THEY - meaning the contributors to the SGGS..Gurus, bhagats, Sheikhs etc...THEY placed the VASTU (one not three)....Sat-SANTOKH....for us to Vechaar (vecharo is a command..a verb..)....
Even the well versed Gurbani grammar specilaist prof sahib Singh missed this..and translated this as THREE vastus..Sat, santokh and Veechar (truth, contemntment and reflection/meditation etc...when this is totally wrong grammar wise, spelling wise.
There is a schoalrly article based on this making the rounds of the mailing lists..a real eye opener. ( OF course the Sant baba mahapurshes of the Taksal take the "Cake" when they insist the so called THREE VASTUS in SGGS are Sugar/Ghee/Atta !!...lol...)

And so many think the Guurs put IN the Lagaan matrans just as DECORATIONS..and Anna Murthi (who just got a prestigious Award form GNDU) had even started a "project" with a million rupee grant form DGMC delhi to CUT and REMOVE all so called "superflous" lagan matra from SGGS and print a Brand new Copy of SGGS MINUS all this "superflous kannas and siharees aunkarrs etc) !! BRILLIANT idea becasue ONCE these Lagana matrans are GONE for GOOD..then TEEN and Tinehe wont make a difference !! What a brilliant move to destroy the SGGS....

So take the so called "translations" of sggs with lots of salt....depend on YOUR OWN INNER CONSCIOUSNESS to connect with t he GURU....
 

BhagatSingh

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Gyani ji that is an interesting interpretation.
My experience has been that whenever Prof Sahib Singh's teeka failed, Freed Kote Wala teeka totally nailed it. You are right with the Verb ਵੀਚਾਰੋ. This is something to be done, not an object in the plate. Free Kote get it's meaning right.

The interpretation by the Freed Kote Teeka is as follows:
ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
ਥਾਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਤਿੰਨਿ ਵਸਤੂ ਪਈਓ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੋ ॥
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾ ਪਇਓ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੁ ਅਧਾਰੋ ॥

मुंदावणी महला ५ ॥
थाल विचि तिंनि वसतू पईओ सतु संतोखु वीचारो ॥
अम्रित नामु ठाकुर का पइओ जिस का सभसु अधारो ॥

Munḏāvaṇī mėhlā 5.
Thāl vicẖ ṯinn vasṯū pa▫ī▫o saṯ sanṯokẖ vīcẖāro.
Amriṯ nām ṯẖākur kā pa▫i▫o jis kā sabẖas aḏẖāro.

Mundaavanee, Fifth Mehl:
Upon this Plate, three things have been placed: Truth, Contentment and Contemplation.
The Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of our Lord and Master, has been placed upon it as well; it is the Support of all.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਰੂਪ ਥਾਲ ਮੈਂ ਤੀਨ ਬਸਤੂ ਰਖੀਆਂ ਹੈਂ ਸਤ ਬੋਲਨਾ ਯਥਾ ਲਾਭ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਏਹ ਵਸਤੂ ਵੀਚਾਰੋ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਸਮਝੋ ਔਰ ਤੀਸਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਰੂਪ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਦਾ ਗੁਰੋਂ ਨੇ ਪਾਯਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਸਭ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਆਸਰਾ ਹੈ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਊਚ ਨੀਚ ਕੋਈ ਜਪੇ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਮੁਕਤ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈ॥

The three objects in the plate are Sat, Santokh and Naam.
 
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Harry Haller

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Bhenji,

They are real to you as a Hindu Sikh, and I fully respect that, but they are not real to me, speaking as a Sikh attempting to divorce myself from the myriad of ritual and lies that have crept in over the years.
 

Kamala

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Well I am speaking in the Guru ji's point of view. These stories are in it saying it is real and you are just using nazaar andaaz. Fully ignoring Sri Narsngh..
 
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Harry Haller

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Kamalaji,

The SGGS may mention many things as a point of reference, I may for instance, draw your attention to a horse that may look like a unicorn, however this does not mean that I believe in unicorns, I am just using it as a point of reference.

In Sikhism there is only the one Creator, other than Creator, everything is born, and everything dies, that is what pure Sikhism teaches
 

Kamala

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I know, I know, I understand there is one creator but these gods/goddesses are small compared to the ultimate. peacesignkaur
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Bhenji

that may be a Hindu/Sikh view, and again, I completely respect it, but in Sikhism these gods/goddesses are not small, they do not exist period.



Harry Ji...10001% TRUTH. period. All those Mata jis living in various caves vaishno..volcano..chandi...riding lions and tigers..having six arms etc are all pure MYTH.....BUT as Guru Teg bahadur Ji proved..a Sikh can and will die for the HINDUS RIGHT to beleive in them as reality.... I Absolutely LOVE to watch vaishno mata Ji, Narain narian Shiv ji etc Mahabharta..Ramayan..Sri krishna Drama aired 24/7 on Sat channels like Star Ushtav...its good entertainment..much better than the Poojas singing Aseen Begampumpura Vassaunna hai..aseen navan panth chalunna hai..or Jita zaildar singing..pajero vich rakhee three zero one...aaj banda maran nu jee kardeh.or horny singh singing lukk 28 kurri da...etc types of Lacharvulgar Punjabi songs/ shows which pretend to be "entertainment" but are a pain in the posterior..for me BOTH Vaishno mata' s MAGIC and Poojas begampura are MYTHS...
 

BhagatSingh

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Harry ji,
It's not that Kamala ji is a Hindu Sikh (Kamala ji change your adherent you are confusing everyone) and you exclusively Sikh. It's that Kamala ji is a Sikh from India and you are a Sikh from Uk. Whereas she has grown up around stories of God incarnating and taking out the baddies, saving Earth from falling into water, protecting mankind from a venomous poison, etc. She has been exposed to Indian narratives whereas you have not. So she gets it and you don't. She gets what the story is about, and you simply say it doesn't exist. The question of existence does not matter here. It's not important. You may believe they exist or you may not. Get past this question and move on to the next step.

Cheers
 

Admin

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Harry ji,
It's not that Kamala ji is a Hindu Sikh (Kamala ji change your adherent you are confusing everyone) and you exclusively Sikh. It's that Kamala ji is a Sikh from India and you are a Sikh from Uk. Whereas she has grown up around stories of God incarnating and taking out the baddies, saving Earth from falling into water, protecting mankind from a venomous poison, etc. She has been exposed to Indian narratives whereas you have not. So she gets it and you don't. She gets what the story is about, and you simply say it doesn't exist. The question of existence does not matter here. It's not important. You may believe they exist or you may not. Get past this question and move on to the next step.

Cheers
Bhagat Singh ji, so according to you it is ok for a Sikh living in India to believe in these theories sans logic?
 

Ambarsaria

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Harry ji,
It's not that Kamala ji is a Hindu Sikh (Kamala ji change your adherent you are confusing everyone) and you exclusively Sikh. It's that Kamala ji is a Sikh from India and you are a Sikh from Uk. Whereas she has grown up around stories of God incarnating and taking out the baddies, saving Earth from falling into water, protecting mankind from a venomous poison, etc. She has been exposed to Indian narratives whereas you have not. So she gets it and you don't. She gets what the story is about, and you simply say it doesn't exist. The question of existence does not matter here. It's not important. You may believe they exist or you may not. Get past this question and move on to the next step.

Cheers
Bhagat Singh ji I appreciate your spirit of teamwork with Kamala ji as her spokesperson,

teamwork.jpg


In the end dog is a dog and a cat is a cat.

Let people speak for themselves. You cannot be a Hindu/Sikh in the same breath. You either believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our Guru jis teachings, which is not Hinduism nor espouses or encourages Hinduism. If you don't believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, you can be be anything you want. No need to mix things up per one's own whim and redefine Guru ji's message and teachings for Sikhs.

Tolerance yes, muddying Sikhism NO!

Sat Sri Akal.
 

BhagatSingh

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What is Hinduism Ambarsaria ji?

I have used this word for all the evil things that exist in this world. Surely this is a biased perspective. Would you be so kind to share with us just a droplet of your knowledge of Hinduism so that I may correct my bias, and learn the truth about Hinduism.

How is it that a thread about Hindu/Sikh identity has no discussion of Hinduism? Ambarsaria ji, you start it as you seem to know about it.
 

Ambarsaria

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What is Hinduism Ambarsaria ji?

I have used this word for all the evil things that exist in this world. Surely this is a biased perspective. Would you be so kind to share with us just a droplet of your knowledge of Hinduism so that I may correct my bias, and learn the truth about Hinduism.

How is it that a thread about Hindu/Sikh identity has no discussion of Hinduism? Ambarsaria ji, you start it as you seem to know about it.
Bhagat Singh ji I know what Sikhism is per Guru jis in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I know nothing else. I have folk knowledge of Hinduism and none of the stuff I have come across as such is supported in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that I have read.

Examples,

  • Belief in Karma
  • Belief in Hierarchy of Deities
  • Role of Brahmins as custodians of knowledge and way to God and the Directorship and Hierarchy of deities
  • Belief in Re-incarnation
  • Rituals of Janeau, mundan, holy baths, Havans
  • Belief in Ramayan, Vedas
  • Etc.
I have no problem in someone believing in all above and more, be happy, have a great spiritual and worldly life, but that is not Sikhism.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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