Christianity Is The Bible Misunderstood By Christians?

[carolineislands]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

ਸਚਾ ਤਾਲੁ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਏ ਸਬਦੇ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥
Sacẖā ṯāl pūrė mā­i­ā moh cẖukā­ė sabḏė niraṯ karāvaṇi­ā. ||3||
Let your true and perfect tune be the subjugation of your love of Maya, and let yourself dance to the Shabad. ||3||
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Gurmukẖ gāvai gurmukẖ nācẖai har sėṯī cẖiṯ lāvaṇi­ā. ||1|| rahā­o.
The Gurmukhs sing, the Gurmukhs dance, and focus their consciousness on the Lord. ||1||Pause||
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

Namjap ji,

This is such a beautiful thread. I LOVE to dance before the Lord! Dancing is a very spiritual part of being human and, like the voice and playing musical instruments, can (and I believe SHOULD) be used to praise Waheguru and to uplift the hearts of others.

As for singing, the human voice can be a very powerful, healing instrument! I know this for a FACT. The voice can be used as a vehicle of Naam, or the spirit of God, God's presence, the hand of Waheguru... however you might call it. All I know is that there are times when I am singing that I sort of slip away out of the equation and the sweet nectar of Naam comes flowing out all over everyone. And I want to thank you for this thread because it has reminded me of this gift and showed me that it's time to start using it again.

I am going to sing at a women's spirituality retreat in a couple of weeks and I've been wondering what to sing since I've sort of changed paths since my last engagement which was at a Christian church. This thread has been so important to me! So I am going to read some of the gurbani you've quoted here, along with Bible verses and maybe a couple of other quotes about the Word and Name of God being a light from other traditions and then I'm going to sing a medley of songs, including "Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path."

The lady putting the retreat together asked me which "faith tradition" I came from. I realized that it doesn't really matter. And that maybe, just maybe if we understood, we could go to any temple or church or circle anywhere and, as long as we were sincere in our hearts, we could worship in whatever fashion was traditional there because there really IS only one God... Couldn't we? I mean, if we really REALLY believed Ek Ong Kaar...

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

ਸਚਾ ਤਾਲੁ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਏ ਸਬਦੇ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥
Sacẖā ṯāl pūrė mā*i*ā moh cẖukā*ė sabḏė niraṯ karāvaṇi*ā. ||3||
Let your true and perfect tune be the subjugation of your love of Maya, and let yourself dance to the Shabad. ||3||
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Gurmukẖ gāvai gurmukẖ nācẖai har sėṯī cẖiṯ lāvaṇi*ā. ||1|| rahā*o.
The Gurmukhs sing, the Gurmukhs dance, and focus their consciousness on the Lord. ||1||Pause||
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

somehow, i don't think Guru sahib was speaking of bhangra.

Guru sahib is speaking of an intense state of spiritual devotion. it's important to differentiate between the dance of the SOUL and the dance of maya/lust/attachment.

if you would read my entire post, you'll see i was trying to address both types of "dance". in fact, you even quoted one of the exact same shabads i did.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤਾ ਨਚੈ ਨੰਗੁ ॥
Rang raṯā nacẖai nang.
they delight in their pleasures, and dance about shamelessly.
[SIZE=-1]Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE][/SIZE]

ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਟਪਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ॥
Nacẖ nacẖ tapeh bahuṯ ḏukẖ pāvahi.
they dance and dance and jump all around, but they only suffer in terrible pain.
[SIZE=-1]Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[carolineislands]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

The comment about Bhangra was just a joke. Although I'm sure God loves Bhangra too, since it isn't a dance of lust/maya... its a dance of joy.

I also know that there is a dance of the soul that is not a physical dance. But I do believe, however, that there is also a dance of the soul that IS a physical dance. I have actually experienced it and I think that's the kind of dance that David did, and probably the one the Gurmukhs do when they sing and dance with their mind focused on the True Guru.

Sometimes love for Waheguru will MAKE you dance.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Caroline Ji,

Here's more info about Dancing and Sikhism

http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/sikhism_and_dancing.pdf

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Caroline Ji,

Here's more info about Dancing and Sikhism

http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/sikhism_and_dancing.pdf

keeping in mind that projectnaad is questionable at best. they flaunt rehat maryada, teach yoga as a sex technique, believe "sat nam" is the "true name" of God. they believe the panj kakkars are ritualistic symbols, and are extremely anti-AKJ. their views on amrit are disturbing, to say the least.

they seem to be run by (i'd guess former) 3HO, because they focus on yoga as much as on sikhi. although their efforts to convert muslims to sikhism have a distinctly UK bent.

take what you will from it, but i don't think they are a great source of mainstream sikh literature.

i suggest reading both sides of the shabads, those against and those that seem to be supporting dancing and you'll probably realize the truth on your own.

i think project naad is feeding misinformation to new sikhs and sikh youth, trying to make sikhi "more accessible" or even "easier". well in my limited understanding, finding God isn't supposed to be "easy".



Bgqw kI cwl inrwlI ] cwlw inrwlI Bgqwh kyrI ibKm mwrig clxw ] lbu loBu AhMkwru qij iqRsnw bhuqu nwhI bolxw ] KMinAhu iqKI vwlhu inkI eyqu mwrig jwxw||

The lifestyle of the devotees is unique and distinct. The devotees' lifestyle is unique and distinct; they follow the most difficult path. They renounce greed, avarice, pride and desire; they do not talk too much. The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than a hair (sggs 918).

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Jios ji and Jsaleen ji for pointing this out

The lifestyle of the devotees is unique and distinct. The devotees' lifestyle is unique and distinct; they follow the most difficult path. They renounce greed, avarice, pride and desire; they do not talk too much. The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than a hair (sggs 918).

I always missed this in my reading. The Gurus knew everything. I will take this one with me :shutup: all day today.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Jasleen Ji,

I have noticed discrepancies as well. They're at their preliminary stages of collecting data which are subject to edit. They are UK based.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

LOL!

What would that do to all the forums?

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Cor.12


ਜਿਸਹਿ ਜਗਾਇ ਪੀਆਵੈ ਇਹੁ ਰਸੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੨॥
जिसहि जगाइ पीआवै इहु रसु अकथ कथा तिनि जानी ॥२॥
Jisahi jagā­ė pī­āvai ih ras akath kathā ṯin jānī. ||2||
Only those who are awakened by the Lord to drink in this Sublime Essence, come to know the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||2||
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Cor.12


ਜਿਸਹਿ ਜਗਾਇ ਪੀਆਵੈ ਇਹੁ ਰਸੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੨॥
जिसहि जगाइ पीआवै इहु रसु अकथ कथा तिनि जानी ॥२॥
Jisahi jagā*ė pī*āvai ih ras akath kathā ṯin jānī. ||2||
Only those who are awakened by the Lord to drink in this Sublime Essence, come to know the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||2||
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

these seem to be very different ideas to me... when we speak of "akath katha", we mean that God does not have to speak for us to understand him. once we realize God, his "words" become known to us.

the christian quote is speaking about words one is not ALLOWED to say. Judeo/Christian tradition has a history of rules against speaking or writing the name of God. very unlike Sikhi, which encourages us to speak the name of God with every breath!

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Jasleen Ji,

The verse which comes before that one is this :-

2Cor.12

[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to thethird heaven.

It won't be a wrong assumption that heard unspeakable words are heavenly in nature. But many Christians could understand it differently, huh ?

Now this brings about a query to mind - how many heavens are there in Christian belief ?
Third Heaven ?

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Jasleen Ji,

The verse which comes before that one is this :-

2Cor.12

[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to thethird heaven.

It won't be a wrong assumption that heard unspeakable words are heavenly in nature. But many Christians could understand it differently, huh ?

Now this brings about a query to mind - how many heavens are there in Christian belief ?
Third Heaven ?

i was referring to the latter half of the statement:

which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

this is much different than sikhi.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Judeo/Christian tradition has a history of rules against speaking or writing the name of God.

I'll take your word for it. I've only read about the Spanish Inquisition.

Can somebody explain third heaven to me ?

 

[carolineislands]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Third heaven is not really a mainstream Christianity belief. I think it comes from older Judaic customs and beliefs and is thought to be the realm of the spirit where God and the angles are. The highest level of pure spirit, so to speak.

That's how I understand it anyhow... I'll ask hubby (he's the theologian) and see if he says anything different.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Judeo/Christian tradition has a history of rules against speaking or writing the name of God.

Above is not true. Tradition means a continuous and unbroken pattern of belief and practice. Is not and has not been for centuries against the rules to speak of write the name of God in Protestant, Roman and Eastern rites. And moreover after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in the 1rst century CE Judaism became a rabbinical religion. The name of God is spoken and written. It was only during the time before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem that the speaking aloud name of God was taboo. Even then high priests spoke his name.

I can't say about Islam because I don't know enough.
I'll take your word for it. I've only read about the Spanish Inquisition.

I am having a hard time figuring out how the Spanish Inquisition relates to the more recent comments. Where does it come in? ::

Can somebody explain third heaven to me ?

:rofl!!:I was so happy I thought I was in 7th heaven. There is also a seventh heaven -- you see, Christian thinking had antecedents in Judaism but also in Greek and Persian religious practices, particularly mystical traditions. The Hellenistic world of the time was awash in inter-mingling spiritual and religious ideas. What we have today are religions that forged new identities but from an amalgam of many different sources and philosophies. This link will help you out.

What is the "third heaven"?

 

[carolineislands]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

The statement about unspeakable words is generally understood to mean that the "language" is a language of the spirit, unintelligible to humans on the physical level and that the language is basically too holy to be understood or spoken by a human on the physical level and is the language of God... language of the spirit. Its not so much that it's not ALLOWED to be spoken. It's more that it is too far beyond our limited intellect because it is the language of the spirit that is only communicated between God and a person that is so devoted and tuned in that they are sometimes caught up in a higher spiritual realm and connect with God on a level that can't be understood by the physical self.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

The statement about unspeakable words is generally understood to mean that the "language" is a language of the spirit, unintelligible to humans on the physical level and that the language is basically too holy to be understood or spoken by a human on the physical level and is the language of God... language of the spirit. Its not so much that it's not ALLOWED to be spoken. It's more that it is too far beyond our limited intellect because it is the language of the spirit that is only communicated between God and a person that is so devoted and tuned in that they are sometimes caught up in a higher spiritual realm and connect with God on a level that can't be understood by the physical self.

Correct! However in religious practice no one follows that - They have been speaking the name of God for 3 hours straight 9-12 am at the Catholic Church around the corner from my office. Every day. OOps! Not for 3 hours straight, off and on for 3 hours straight would be more accurate.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Aad Ji,

Some editing will sort out the Quotes I made from the ones I didn't.

:rofl!!:I was so happy I thought I was in 7th heaven. There is also a seventh heaven
Why does it seem OK to joke about Bible quotes whereas it's not the same when joking about SGGS ? :crazy: Now could you also kindly give me a link on the 7th Heaven ? Thank you Ji.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Thanks Caroline Ji,

For the inspiring explanation that hits the nail on the head. So shall I continue with one more similarity.

Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, andwealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.
2Chr.1


ਤਿਨ ਮਤਿ ਤਿਨ ਪਤਿ ਤਿਨ ਧਨੁ ਪਲੈ ਜਿਨ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
Ŧin maṯṯin paṯṯin ḏẖan palai jin hirḏai rahi­ā samā­ė.
Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok