Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux

[Randip Singh]

Re: Ardaas Changed

Kala afghana does not agree that waheguru is Gurmantra for sikhs. Good to note that some of his disciples do agree that waheguru is Gurmantra.

Do you agree Bandha Bahadhur was a good Sikh?

 

[BhagatSingh]

I think we need to start this discussion from the first post....again...

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Ardaas Changed

Dear Gyani Ji,

Thanks for clarifying Baptism and stressing on the intertwined difficult principles, which the individual must follow. Sikh baptism in to Khalsa is not the means to an end but a beginning of a hard and steep journey towards becoming a Guru willed individual. It is not the ritual of baptism but living in thought, word, spirit, and deed of the principles laid down; otherwise it stays as a ritual. No external icon, symbol, religious dress, bought Akhand Path, or body position or sequence of words or numbers, has ever made God respond any better to any prayer, nor made heaven or earth or hell or anything else supernaturally bend to anyone's bidding. These deceitful situations are not a check that you can draw on the bank of God, whenever you are hard put to meet your needs.

It is the sincerity and absolute honesty which are of prime importance to progress in spirituality.


The moment you believe that baptism has any powers or merit of its own, you believe in magic, you are being idolatrous, and you are breaking the teachings of your faith. Guru Nanak in Raag Asa advises a Brahmin;

ਕਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਮਨੁ ਹੈ ਧੋਤੀ ॥ਗਿਆਨੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕੁਸਪਾਤੀ ॥ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਜਸੁ ਜਾਚਉ ਨਾਉ ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਸਮਾਉ ॥ਪਾਂਡੇ ਐਸਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ਨਾਮੇ ਸੁਚਿ ਨਾਮੋ ਪੜਉ ਨਾਮੇ ਚਜੁ ਆਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਜਨੇਊ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ਧੋਤੀ ਟਿਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥ਐਥੈ ਓਥੈ ਨਿਬਹੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਭਾਲਿ ॥ਪੂਜਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਮਾਇਆ ਪਰਜਾਲਿ ॥ਏਕੋ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਭਾਲਿ ॥ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਤੁ ਗਗਨ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ਹਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਠ ਪੜੈ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ਭੋਜਨੁ ਭਾਉ ਭਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਭਾਗੈ ॥ਪਾਹਰੂਅਰਾ ਛਬਿ ਚੋਰੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ਤਿਲਕੁ ਲਿਲਾਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੁ ॥ਬੂਝੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਿਬੇਕੁ ॥ਆਚਾਰੀ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਤਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ਪਾਠ ਪੜੈ ਨਹੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ॥ਅਸਟ ਦਸੀ ਚਹੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥

Kā¬i¬ā barahmā man hai ḏẖoṯī, Gi¬ān janė¬ū ḏẖi¬ān kuspāṯī, Har nāmā jas jācẖa¬o nā¬o, Gur parsādī barahm samā¬o, Pāʼndė aisā barahm bīcẖār, Nāmė sucẖ nāmo paṛa¬o nāmė cẖaj ācẖār, Bāhar janė¬ū jicẖar joṯ hai nāl, Ḏẖoṯī tikā nām samāl, Aithai othai nibhī nāl, viṇ nāvai hor karam na bẖāl, Pūjā parėm mā¬i¬ā parjāl, Ėko vėkẖhu avar na bẖāl, Cẖīnĥai ṯaṯ gagan ḏas ḏu¬ār, Har mukẖ pāṯẖ paṛai bīcẖār, Bẖojan bẖā¬o bẖaram bẖa¬o bẖāgai, Pāhrū¬arā cẖẖab cẖor na lāgai, Ŧilak lilāt jāṇai parabẖ ėk, Būjẖai barahm anṯar bibėk, Ācẖārī nahī jīṯi¬ā jā¬ė, Pāṯẖ paṛai nahī kīmaṯ pā¬ė, Asat ḏasī cẖahu bẖėḏ na pā¬i¬ā, Nānak saṯgur barahm ḏikẖā¬i¬ā.

Let the body be the Brahmin, and let the mind be the loin-cloth; let spiritual wisdom be the sacred thread, and meditation the ceremonial ring. I seek the Name of the Akal Purkh and Its Praise as my cleansing bath. By Guru's Grace, I am absorbed into God. O religious scholar, contemplate God in such a way that Its Name may sanctify you, be your study, be your wisdom and way of life. The outer sacred thread is worthwhile only as long as the Divine Light is within. So make the remembrance of the Name of the Akal Purkh, your loin-cloth and the ceremonial mark on your forehead. Here and hereafter, the Name alone shall stand by you. Do not seek any other actions, except the Name. Worship the Akal Purkh in loving adoration, and burn your desire for Maya. Behold only the One Creator, and do not seek out any other. Become aware of reality, in the Sky of the Tenth Gate; read aloud the Its Word, and contemplate it. With the diet of Its Love, doubt and fear depart. With the God as your night watchman, no thief will dare to break in. Let the knowledge of the One God be the ceremonial mark on your forehead. Let the realization that God is within you be your discrimination. Through ritual actions, God cannot be won over; by reciting sacred scriptures, It’s value cannot be estimated. The eighteen Puraanas and the four Vedas do not know Its mystery. O Nanak, the True Guru has shown me the God. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 355


Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI

Guru Piayere Grewal Ji,
Gurfateh.

From as long ago as i can remember first sitting in my late dad jis Punjabi School/Gurbani classes...I have always held that since SGGS is UNIVERSAL..its Teachings apply equally to ALL. Thus I have always taught that we SIKHS ( or any others) cannot run away and hide behind the excuse that..."OH..in this shabad Guru Ji is addressing the Brahmin...the Pandit..The Mullah..the Kazi...and since I am NONE of those ( I am a SIKH/SINGH/KHALSA !!) all that doesnt apply to ME.
The Universal Teachings of SGGS ALWAYS APPLY TO ALL...Sikhs..Gyanis, Ragis, Jathedars, pardhaans, Skattars....each of us..no matter who is the one beign originally addressed in a Particular Shahabd. The "TEACHINGS" are without BOUNDARIES..and beyond TIME and Place and for all HUMANKIND.
TODAY..since we SIKHS accept the SGGS as our SOLE GURU..we have to take each shabad as personally addressed to US...and CHANGE OUR LIVES ACCORDINGLY...or be prepared to be addressed as BEMUKHS..traitors to the SGGS. The Metaphors of SGGS apply to US..directly and correctly.

Cordially
Jarnail Singh

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Re: Ardaas Changed

Dear Giani Ji,

Please accept my gratitude from the bottom of my heart as very few rare Gurmukhs can understand the way you said. Guru Nanak says in Raag Basant "virlaa ko cheenas gur sabad milaa-ay."AGGS, Page, 1188.


Cordially,


Virinder

 

[dalsingh]

Dal singh ji

I agree with you about Badal.





Please provide a reference in support of your statement.There was never doubt about authenticity of Dasam Granth. Only Teja singh Bhasaur raised the issue and he was excommunicated. Bhag singh ambala was the next one and he was also excommunicated/

Can you provide evidence of these excommunications? You may be right, but it is the first time I have heard of it?

Besides, do you not think energy is being deflected from Sikhs really combating the leadership crisis they have by using things like the Dasam Granth?

 

[Inder singh]

Can you provide evidence of these excommunications? You may be right, but it is the first time I have heard of it?

Given below are references for the excommunication of these two persons

1)Babu Teja Singh - the free encyclopedia

Babu Teja Singh (1867 - 1933), leader of the Bhasaur school of fundamentalism, was born on 20 January 1867, the son of'Subadar Sudh Singh and Jion Kaur of the village of Bhasaur in presentday Sangrur district of the Punjab. His original name was Narain Singh. Having received his preliminary education in Punjabi and gurbam or the Sikh sacred texts under Baba Fateh Singh Virakt of Bhasaur (d. 1875), he studied in Government Primary School, Lang, near Patiala, and matriculated from City High School, Patiala, in 1882. He joined the Patiala state army as a havildar (sergeant) in 1882, but resigned three years later to undergo overseer's training at Engineering College, Roorkee, and was after completing the course appointed a suboverseer at Sirhind in the irrigation department of Patiala state on 21 November 1887. The term babu, a common mode of address for junior government officials, soon came to be prefixed to his name. While still in service, he started preaching the tenets of the Sikh faith as interpreted afresh by the Singh Sabha movement. In 1893 he established a Singh Sabha at his native village, Bhasaur, and in the following year he compiled and published Khalsa Rahit Prakash, a Sikh code of conduct. During that year he went on a pilgrimage on foot to Hazur Sahib, Nanded, where lie received pahul or the rites of the Khalsa and was renamed Teja Singh. By his dedicated work in the Singh Sabha, he won wide recognition and, when the Chief Khalsa Diwan was established at Amritsar in 1902, he had the honour of saying the inaugural ardas or prayer. On 1314 June 1903 he convened a largelyattended divan or religious assembly at Bakapur, a small village in Jalandhar district, at which a Muslim family of seven and 28 others were administered pahul. He was nominated a member of the committee set up by the Chief Khalsa Diwan, on 20 October 1910, to draft a Sikh code of conduct, later published under the title, Gurmat Prakash : Bhag Sanskar. But Teja Singh's innate puritanism gradually asserted itself and he started drifting away from the mainstream of Sikh life. In 1907 he set up the Panch Khalsa Diwan or Khalsa Parliament under sanction from a Sikh synod held at Damdama Sahib, Talvandi Sabo, on 13 April 1907. In 1909 he opened a girls school at Bhasaur called Khalsa Bhujangan School where the pupils were required to don turbans like men instead of the traditional women's dupatta or scarf. Babu Teja Singh replaced the Sikh term for God "Vahiguru," by "Vahugur." The word karah prasad, Sikh sacrament, was substituted by mahaprashad. Teja Singh publicly repudiated the Sikh code published by the Chief Khalsa Diwan, Gurmat Prakash : Bhag Sahkar in the preparation of which he himself had earlier participated, and issued his own code, Khalsa Rahit Prakash. He propagated the use of Sikh calendar beginning from the birth of Guru Nanak in AD 1469, and introduced his own titles and honorifics such as Kirpan Bahadur, Kakar Bahadur and Dahra Bahadur. A motion adopted by the Pahch Khalsa Diwan (Khalsa Parliament) disclaimed the Sahajdhari section of the Sikhs. In his literalist zeal, Teja Singh started garbling the Sikh canon and changed the traditional Sikh ardas or daily prayer of supplication. He advocated the expunging from the Guru Granth Sahib of Ragmala as well as of compositions of the Bhaktas and Bhatts. He printed courses of reading for his school comprising barn contained in the Guru Granth Sahib, extracting from it the Bhatts' Savaiyye. He also had copies of the Holy Volume printed without the Ragmala. This led to widespread public protest and the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, at its special meeting held on 31 March 1928, condemned the innovations introduced by the Pahch Khalsa Diwan. At its meeting on 15 July 1928, the Committee appealed to the Sikhs in general to boycott Babu Teja Singh and his colleagues of the Bhasaur Diwan and to the Takhts to excommunicate them. Accordingly, the Akal Takht atAmritsar issued the excommunication decree on 9 August 1928. Other Takhts followed suit, Takht Sri Hazur Sahib, issuing a hukamnama on 13 January 1929, Takht Sri Patna Sahib on 27 March 1929 and Takht Sri Kesgarh Sahib on 22 August 1929. But Teja Singh was far from repentant. Teja Singh suffered a sunstroke on 17 June 1933 and died on 29 August 1933.
References

1. Lal Singh, Itihas Ranch Khalsa Diwan Sambandhi SuchnaVari. Ludhiana, 1967
2. VIr Sudhar Pattar arthat Sri Guru Singh Sabha Bhasaur de athme te naume salana divan da sitta. Bhasaur, 1903
3. Harbans Singh, "The Bakapur Diwan and Babu Teja Singh of Bhasaur," in The Panjab Past and Present. Patiala, October 1973




2)Excommunication of Bhag Singh Ambala

 

[Inder singh]

Do you agree Bandha Bahadhur was a good Sikh?

Baba Banda Bahadar did not contest Gurmantra. Do you think he did?

 

[dalsingh]

Inder Singh

Thanks for that info.

Do you mind answering my other point about Badal and co using Dasam Granth to keep dum kuttarhs in the panth occupied whilst he does what he wants?

 

[Inder singh]

Do you mind answering my other point about Badal and co using Dasam Granth to keep dum kuttarhs in the panth occupied whilst he does what he wants?

The issue of dasam granth is not creation of Badal and company. In my opinion it is abetted and sustained by anti sikh forces who want to divide and weaken sikhs on filmsy issues.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

The issue of dasam granth is not creation of Badal and company. In my opinion it is abetted and sustained by anti sikh forces who want to divide and weaken sikhs on filmsy issues.

Inder ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree with your above statement in BOLD. And those people are you and your ilk who disrespect and do not believe in our only GURU given to us by Guru Gobind Singh ji and our ONLY GURU is SGGS. No one else. Nothing else.


Tejwant Singh

 

[Randip Singh]

Baba Banda Bahadar did not contest Gurmantra. Do you think he did?

He changed the Sikh cry to Fateh Darshan and that was viewed in the same way at the time, so why are you singling out Kala Afghana for special treatment?

 

[Inder singh]

He changed the Sikh cry to Fateh Darshan and that was viewed in the same way at the time, so why are you singling out Kala Afghana for special treatment?

Please do not equate Banda singh bahadar with kala afghana. Banda Bahadar did a lot for sikhs. He had his weaknesses that resulted in division of sikh ranks. Considering his sacrifces these weaknesses are insignificant.

 

[Inder singh]

And those people are you and your ilk who disrespect and do not believe in our only GURU given to us by Guru Gobind Singh ji and our ONLY GURU is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. No one else. Nothing else.

Excommunicated kala afghana and his sect are liars of the first order.

It is stated many times that all sikhs consider SGGS as their Guru. But these people fabricate their own fables and then spread those.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I would like to be honest with you. I am getting concerned about you. What you wrote makes no sense. One wonders what has gone wrong which is worriesome to me as a Sikh!

The reasons about my concerns are regarding your lack of rationale, logic and reasoning.

You have proved many times in your posts (they are all here for you to read) that you do not accept SGGS as the ONLY GURU of Sikhs which means you deny the fact that Guru Gobind Singh ji bestowed the Guruship to SGGS.

You embrace Dasam Granth instead by undermining,disrepescting and second guessing Guru Gobind Singh ji. It needs nothing more than common sense to see that if Guru Gobind Singh ji wanted a granth by his name then he would not have added his father's Guru Teg Bahadur's Gurbani in SGGS and hence would have rendered it useless.

It is appalling that you and your ilk do not accept Guru Gobind Singh's decision. So now you know that you and people who think the way you do are unshamedly heretic, which is sad.

Please allow me to elaborate it a bit further from your own post.

You write:

Excommunicated kala afghana and his sect are liars of the first order.

You have not been able to respond up to now about ex-communincation which started this thread. I have no idea why you are reluctant about it, yet you shamlessly use the word. So if you have the courage to use the word then you can also gather the Sikhi bravura and respond what ex-communication means from Gurmat ideals as asked by me and urged by many others. Why are you silent about it?

Secondly, your dispute with these people has nothing to do with the discussion here. Are these people your relatives? Why don't you talk to them and settle the dispute? I do not understand the connection between your relatives whom you have dispute with and your rejection of SGGS as our only GURU.

As mentioned by me to you many times that SGGS is our only GURU whom unfortunately you reject and have no idea what is written in there, that is why you had no idea that SGGS, our only GURU explains what REHAT means several times.

It is stated many times that all Sikhs consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Guru.

I am sorry to say the above makes no sense which makes me worry about you even more.

It is not stated and it is not a consideration either but a fact that Guru Gobind Singh bestowed Guruship to SGGS our ONLY GURU but you unfortunately reject that fact by second guessing our Guru Sahib.

But these people fabricate their own fables and then spread those.

I agree with you on the above. People like you and your cohorts have fabricated your own fables by claiming that Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind Singh and by rejecting SGGS as our only GURU which is sad and a shame.

Lastly, I urge you again to explain ex-communication based on Gurmat ideals as asked at the start of the thread.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Inder singh]

No sikh ever denied about SGGS as our guru.

Dasam granth is our second most revered scripture.

Kala afghhani sect does not believe in

1) Naam simran. They say it is a useless excercise.

2) Kala afghana sect does not want to respect SGGS ji. They want to keep it in a cupboard.

3) Kala afghana sect belittles Sri harmandir sahib as just a building with no spiritual solace.

4) Kala Afghana sect belittles sikh rehat maryada.

5) Kala afghana sect does not believe in gurmantra whereas Gurbani says that without Gurmantra a person is not a sikh.

6) Kala afghana belittles great sikh personailities as Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai vir singh etc.

7) kala afghana sect says there were no chali muktas. So we have to forget our many Gurdwaras that were built in memory of chali muktas.

But there are a few shameless tail waggers of this sect who are still idolizing this man even though he is excommunicated. That means they have no respect for instituition of akal takhat. why do not they voluntarily leave and form their own sect? Wish them good luck.

 

[Randip Singh]

Please do not equate Banda singh bahadar with kala afghana. Banda Bahadar did a lot for sikhs. He had his weaknesses that resulted in division of sikh ranks. Considering his sacrifces these weaknesses are insignificant.

Actually the analogy is a good one. Bandha Bahadhur introduced many many Vashnavite practices into Sikhi which caused a major rift in Sikhi at the time.

Today we have a major Vashnavite slant in Sikhi (and in Punjab generally), who is to say Kala Afgha is not trying to redress this balance and is just misunderstood?

 

[Randip Singh]

No sikh ever denied about SGGS as our guru.

Dasam granth is our second most revered scripture.

Kala afghhani sect does not believe in

1) Naam simran. They say it is a useless excercise.

It is useless if you don't understand it and repeat it like something in a Madrasaa.

2) Kala afghana sect does not want to respect SGGS ji. They want to keep it in a cupboard.

What is the point of putting the Sri Guru Granth Sahib to bed? Why can't it be kept in a clean cupboard?

3) Kala afghana sect belittles Sri harmandir sahib as just a building with no spiritual solace.

It is just a building. It should never be seen as an object of worship. Next we will be facing it like the Kaaba.

4) Kala Afghana sect belittles sikh rehat maryada.

Which aspects of it?

5) Kala afghana sect does not believe in gurmantra whereas Gurbani says that without Gurmantra a person is not a sikh.

Where has he stated this? Why is a person not a Sikh without Gurmatra?

6) Kala afghana belittles great sikh personailities as Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai vir singh etc.

How and where does he belittle them? Please show cited examples.

7) kala afghana sect says there were no chali muktas. So we have to forget our many Gurdwaras that were built in memory of chali muktas.

Where does he say this? Please cite exact phrase where he says this? No links to Panthic/Nindya.org please.

But there are a few shameless tail waggers of this sect who are still idolizing this man even though he is excommunicated. That means they have no respect for institution of akal takhat. why do not they voluntarily leave and form their own sect? Wish them good luck.

Why are they shameless? They probably believe he was treated unfairly? It would not be the first time someone was treated unfairly by our illustrious headquarters? I would say it was brave of them to make a stand in the face of violent and hate filled opposition.

NO LINKS TO AKJ/DDT/PANTHIC WEEKLY PLEASE!

 

[Inder singh]

Randip

You have very little knowledge of these incidents. You are participating in this discussion as a tool to aid your buddies. Your beliefs are no different from your comrade/ atheists friends.

He has been sent out packing. Those who cann't reconcile to this fact may form their own group like radhasoamis.

 

[Inder singh]

Today we have a major Vashnavite slant in Sikhi (and in Punjab generally), who is to say Kala Afgha is not trying to redress this balance and is just misunderstood?

Give us an example here. Mere pronouncements do no good.

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip

You have very little knowledge of these incidents. You are participating in this discussion as a tool to aid your buddies. Your beliefs are no different from your comrade/ atheists friends.

He has been sent out packing. Those who cann't reconcile to this fact may form their own group like radhasoamis.

Your comments are unhelpful and at worst insulting. Discuss the topic rather than the person.

You have made some serious allegations to which I am playing Devil's advocate.

Please back up the assertions you have made or they will be removed as having no basis.