err, this IS exactly what you do in every single one of your threads. So before trying to question me on one comment I have made, try and back up your Magnus Opus of assertions first!
Thanks
Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux
- Thread starter Tejwant Singh
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err, this IS exactly what you do in every single one of your threads. So before trying to question me on one comment I have made, try and back up your Magnus Opus of assertions first!
Thanks
- Feb 7, 2008
- 529
- 83
Randip
Sikhs consider SGGS ji as Guru. By changing the dohra and substituting Guru granth by khalsa Panth in Ardas, Kala afghana sect has disowned Sri guru Granth sahib as their Guru.Keep yourself aware of such news.This is the biggest blasphemy so far.
Please tell us how naam simran is done per taeching of SGGS ji. How do we understand naam.
harmandir sahib is built by Guru Arjan dev ji. When it was completed Guru sahib wrote a shabad that is found in SGGS on ang 783. It is sheer ignorance to equate harmandir sahib to any other building of bricks.
sMqw ky kwrij Awip KloieAw hir kMmu krwvix AwieAw rwm ]
sa(n)thaa kae kaaraj aap khaloeiaa har ka(n)m karaavan aaeiaa raam ||
The Lord Himself has stood up to resolve the affairs of the Saints; He has come to complete their tasks.
He ridicules Gurmantra, Dasam granth, amritvela, aRdas, Kirtan. All these are listed in Sikh Rehat maryada. You should read sikh rehat maryada.
We will go to other points later. let us resolve these first.
Sikhs consider SGGS ji as Guru. By changing the dohra and substituting Guru granth by khalsa Panth in Ardas, Kala afghana sect has disowned Sri guru Granth sahib as their Guru.Keep yourself aware of such news.This is the biggest blasphemy so far.
Please tell us how naam simran is done per taeching of SGGS ji. How do we understand naam.
harmandir sahib is built by Guru Arjan dev ji. When it was completed Guru sahib wrote a shabad that is found in SGGS on ang 783. It is sheer ignorance to equate harmandir sahib to any other building of bricks.
sMqw ky kwrij Awip KloieAw hir kMmu krwvix AwieAw rwm ]
sa(n)thaa kae kaaraj aap khaloeiaa har ka(n)m karaavan aaeiaa raam ||
The Lord Himself has stood up to resolve the affairs of the Saints; He has come to complete their tasks.
He ridicules Gurmantra, Dasam granth, amritvela, aRdas, Kirtan. All these are listed in Sikh Rehat maryada. You should read sikh rehat maryada.
We will go to other points later. let us resolve these first.
- Feb 7, 2008
- 529
- 83
You wrote that banda Bahadar introduced vasishnva beliefs in sikhism. PERSONAL COMMENT REMOVED. Vaishnva system believes in Vishnu and his avtars. Sikhism discards this. Banda Bahadar was a baptized sikh. He was thoroughly versed in SGGS ji's bani.
If you level blame on someone it is your job to follow it up with proof.
EDITOR NOTE - READ ABOUT MADHO DAS AND HIS BAIRAGI TENDANCIES - History of the Sikh People - Dr Gopal Singh
Inder Singh ji,
Guru Fateh.
Whatever you say, it does not surprise me anymore. From you post below, you have revealed yourself in a wonderful way. Your Post show that you consider Sikhi not as a unique way of life but a Hindu off shoot. Your responses indicate that you dwell in Hindutva. Please do not take this as an insult. This is what you have shown and admitted yourself to be.
Allow me to use your own post to show you your true belief system.
Revere means to worship. One worships an idol.
For you as you have mentioned many times before even through private emails that Naam Simran is repeating- Parroting, which is again a concept borrowed from Hinduism.
In Sikhi Naam Simran is studying, understanding and practicing the teachings given to us in the SGGS, our only GURU so that we can breed goodness within and make a difference in the world. It has nothing to do with parroting as you claim.
So you wrap your Kirtan CDs and the hard drive of your computer in Rumallas and under a chandoa?
Once again, you have shown your Hindu mentality of idol worshipping. SGGS is not an idol. Gurbani is not an Idol. Gurbani tells us on every page of SGGS to study it, understand it and put into practice. Shabad Vichaar which is urged by our Gurus otherwise SGGS just becomes an idol.
Harmandir Sahib is a building with a great concept of 4 doors conceived by Guru Sahib to welcome all humanity from all walks of life from any faith or creed. Harmandir Sahib has value because of SGGS prakash inside. The building without SGGS is just a building which unfortunately was converted into white elephant by Maharaja Ranjit Singh by gold leafing it. After that all Gurdwaras got on the band wagon to have golden domes. The same money could be utilised to help the needy, to establish schools and colleges. Now money is spent to upkeep the building. What a waste!
Solace is only found by studying, understanding, accepting and putting the teachings of SGGS in practice. Solace is not just in matha tek in front of SGGS.
The above is just whining and grumbling. People talk like that when they have run out of any reason or logic. As you do not consider SGGS our only GURU, you showed that you had no idea that SGGS mentions waht REHAT means.
Read my earlier posts and repsond about the questions I have asked you regarding Gurmantra. Your are whining again because you have nothing logical to say or to share.
Inder Singh ji,
I want to thank you for showing your true colors and your faith in Hinduism which is not a bad thing. Lots of Hindus are also members of this SIKH forum.
Tejwant Singh
Guru Fateh.
Whatever you say, it does not surprise me anymore. From you post below, you have revealed yourself in a wonderful way. Your Post show that you consider Sikhi not as a unique way of life but a Hindu off shoot. Your responses indicate that you dwell in Hindutva. Please do not take this as an insult. This is what you have shown and admitted yourself to be.
Allow me to use your own post to show you your true belief system.
First of all for SIKHS, SGGS is our only GURU. No one else. Secondly,thanks for using the word revered. I am sure you understand its meaning.I am sure you are aware of the fact that Dasam Granth has many things related to Hinduism. Let me share that with others what you really mean by that
Originally Posted by Inder singh
No Sikh ever denied about Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our guru.
Dasam granth is our second most revered scripture.
Kala afghhani sect does not believe in
1) Naam simran. They say it is a useless excercise.
Revere means to worship. One worships an idol.
For you as you have mentioned many times before even through private emails that Naam Simran is repeating- Parroting, which is again a concept borrowed from Hinduism.
In Sikhi Naam Simran is studying, understanding and practicing the teachings given to us in the SGGS, our only GURU so that we can breed goodness within and make a difference in the world. It has nothing to do with parroting as you claim.
Originally Posted by Inder singh
2) Kala afghana sect does not want to respect Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji. They want to keep it in a cupboard.
So you wrap your Kirtan CDs and the hard drive of your computer in Rumallas and under a chandoa?
Once again, you have shown your Hindu mentality of idol worshipping. SGGS is not an idol. Gurbani is not an Idol. Gurbani tells us on every page of SGGS to study it, understand it and put into practice. Shabad Vichaar which is urged by our Gurus otherwise SGGS just becomes an idol.
Once again you have shown with your thinking that a building is where Ik Ong Kaar resides. Just like the Hindu Pandits who would not let Bhagat Ravi Das enter into the temple.Originally Posted by Inder singh
3) Kala afghana sect belittles Sri harmandir sahib as just a building with no spiritual solace.
Harmandir Sahib is a building with a great concept of 4 doors conceived by Guru Sahib to welcome all humanity from all walks of life from any faith or creed. Harmandir Sahib has value because of SGGS prakash inside. The building without SGGS is just a building which unfortunately was converted into white elephant by Maharaja Ranjit Singh by gold leafing it. After that all Gurdwaras got on the band wagon to have golden domes. The same money could be utilised to help the needy, to establish schools and colleges. Now money is spent to upkeep the building. What a waste!
Solace is only found by studying, understanding, accepting and putting the teachings of SGGS in practice. Solace is not just in matha tek in front of SGGS.
The above is just whining and grumbling. People talk like that when they have run out of any reason or logic. As you do not consider SGGS our only GURU, you showed that you had no idea that SGGS mentions waht REHAT means.
Originally Posted by Inder singh
5) Kala afghana sect does not believe in gurmantra whereas Gurbani says that without Gurmantra a person is not a Sikh.
Read my earlier posts and repsond about the questions I have asked you regarding Gurmantra. Your are whining again because you have nothing logical to say or to share.
LOL... Keep on whining. Once again you have shown your Hindu mentality here. What is the above have to do with your not accepting SGGS as our ONLY GURU. There is NO second, third, fourth.......GURU.ONLY SGGS. Why do you fail to grasp that?Originally Posted by Inder singh
6) Kala afghana belittles great Sikh personailities as Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai vir singh etc.
Once again you are using diversion tactics like Hindus use so you do not have to accept SGGS as our ONLY GURU. whether there were chali muktas or not does not give you the excuse not to accept our ONLY GURU- SGGS.Originally Posted by Inder singh
7) kala afghana sect says there were no chali muktas. So we have to forget our many Gurdwaras that were built in memory of chali muktas.
Inder Singh ji,
I want to thank you for showing your true colors and your faith in Hinduism which is not a bad thing. Lots of Hindus are also members of this SIKH forum.
Tejwant Singh
- Feb 7, 2008
- 529
- 83
Let us know those. If you are not able quote those you will be dubbed as habitual distorter.
- Feb 7, 2008
- 529
- 83
Please read
Naam ke dhare simrat bed puran
Naam Ke dhare sunan Gian dhian
ang 284
and
Naam te sabh upje
Bhai nai visrai mar jai
ang 603
Inder Singh ji,
Guru Fateh.
Please follow the forum rules and give the whole Shabads. If you decide to copy and paste literal translations, then also express the meanings of the above Shabads in your own words because most of the literal translations are misleading.
Thanks
Tejwant Singh
1. Accepting Khandey Batte Dee Pahul is only a FIRST STEP for a KHALSA. The REAL HARD work comes AFTER this step. The Real Hard Work is CHANGING ones LIFE according to the Tools provided for in Gurbani and SGGS. IF no such changes take place..then its just BHEKH. Those "sants/Brahmgianis" who insist that simply taking Pahul GUARANTEES that Guru Gobind Singh Ji will pull you out of Hell.... ( Anti-Gurbani concept) ...by your Kesh, and that one can Committ a million sins/paaps ( anti-gurbani concept) you will still be BORN in Khalsa House for 10,000 Janams (another anti-gurbani concept) are on solid Brahminism ground..NOT GURMATT. There should be NO "instant" Pahul...no "forced" pahul...no "Give away pahul"....PAHUL has got to BE VOLUNTARY.self willed, self prepared and ready to live the life of Rehit and Committed to the Challenges ahead. Not where they even give you FREE kanghas, kirpans, kacheras and karras...to ENTICE you into becoming a Khalsa..again and again..just to BOOST numbers. THIS is just like the BRAHMIN WHO CAME PREPARED TO PUT A FREE JANEAU ON GURU NANAK JI.... This is NOT dissing Pahul, is not anti-pahul propoganda...etc etc its PUTTING the PAHUL in its Proper perspective...proper Context...as Guru Ji did in 1699 - OFFER your HEAD FIRST...Be Committed..Be in your full senses and agree fully...and come with PREM. ( I personally met a group of rowdy monas on a bus from Jallandhar to Chandigarh and they were going to FatehGarh Sahib for "amrit Chhak" becasue they were giving out FREE KAMBALS...as well as kacheras karras kirpans etc. From talk among them that i over heard this group went from one amrit sanskaar to another collecting kanghas karras kirpans kambals and kacheras which they sold/used..and they were freshly SHAVED..but who cares...all get yellow siropas..and honour and free Gifts..and so they chhak amrit again and again..wow. When I asked them..they replied..Uncle Ji..Amrti changee cheez hai..jineh marzee chhako..koi nuksaan taan nahin hoga ?? IS THIS what we want for KHALSA JI ??
2. IF EK Oangkar is CONFINED to Harmandir sahib Amrtisar..then what is the Lesson in Guru nanak jis Mecca sakhi ?? (Btw read the Gurbilas Patshahi Chhevin and see how anti-grmatt all thsi is. in that book VISHNU informs Guru Arjun ji..THIS is MY MANDIR, and thats why its built in water, and since its MY HOME..YOU will VACATE it every NIGHT ( this is why SGGS is taken OUT each night !!)...and so much more...) The Harmandir in Gurbani is the Human Body, and WAHEGURU DWELLS inside each HUMAN BODY...He si WITHIN...not confined to any building. Harmandir Sahib is SIGNIFICANT to Sikhism as our CENTRAL Place of Worship, Guru Amardass Ji, Guru ramdass Ji and Guru Arjun ji sahibs built it, our AAD granth and now SGGS is parkash there, it has NIROL GURBANI KIrtan for most of the Day/Night..THOSE and many other REASONS why we regard it as SIGNIFICANT and worth visiting...BUT its NOT where EK Oangkaar stays..its not Holy just for that reason..its NOT our "MECCA"
I have Visited Harmandir Sahib..its a place of so much peace, serenity, spirituality oozes from its walls, the sarovar ishnaan is way out of this world, the entire atmosphere every where ( and after 1984) each stone..each tile has its own tale to tell the true seekers....the Akal takaht is simpy awesome...SURE the CREATOR seesm so NEAR within the Confines of the Darnar sahib Complex...BUT we must not "confine" EK Oangkar within its walls..HE is much GREATER...
3. Gurbani and SGGS is 1429 pages...of GYAAN...TOOLS meant to be USED practically to change our daily LIVES....a recipe for SUCCESS..an ADRASH..a GOAL to be achieved during our life span.
Its not meant to be read like a mantra...meaninglessly and hope to achieve salvation simply be reading it...ITS GOT TO BE APPLIED. THATS the difference between the KHALSA who APPLIED GURBANI and those who just read it...its meant to be KAMAYEED...you got to churn milk to get butter....just looking at milk wont do anything....the butter is there but you got to work at it... NAAM KAMAII is PRACTICALLY LIVING NAAM....so that it SHINES THROUGH....otherwise CD players also chant endlessly until they wear out....Simply too many "CD players" around Today..thats our misfortune...they just continue to play whatever was RECORDED on them by their Masters...HMV's pure and simple.
2. IF EK Oangkar is CONFINED to Harmandir sahib Amrtisar..then what is the Lesson in Guru nanak jis Mecca sakhi ?? (Btw read the Gurbilas Patshahi Chhevin and see how anti-grmatt all thsi is. in that book VISHNU informs Guru Arjun ji..THIS is MY MANDIR, and thats why its built in water, and since its MY HOME..YOU will VACATE it every NIGHT ( this is why SGGS is taken OUT each night !!)...and so much more...) The Harmandir in Gurbani is the Human Body, and WAHEGURU DWELLS inside each HUMAN BODY...He si WITHIN...not confined to any building. Harmandir Sahib is SIGNIFICANT to Sikhism as our CENTRAL Place of Worship, Guru Amardass Ji, Guru ramdass Ji and Guru Arjun ji sahibs built it, our AAD granth and now SGGS is parkash there, it has NIROL GURBANI KIrtan for most of the Day/Night..THOSE and many other REASONS why we regard it as SIGNIFICANT and worth visiting...BUT its NOT where EK Oangkaar stays..its not Holy just for that reason..its NOT our "MECCA"
I have Visited Harmandir Sahib..its a place of so much peace, serenity, spirituality oozes from its walls, the sarovar ishnaan is way out of this world, the entire atmosphere every where ( and after 1984) each stone..each tile has its own tale to tell the true seekers....the Akal takaht is simpy awesome...SURE the CREATOR seesm so NEAR within the Confines of the Darnar sahib Complex...BUT we must not "confine" EK Oangkar within its walls..HE is much GREATER...
3. Gurbani and SGGS is 1429 pages...of GYAAN...TOOLS meant to be USED practically to change our daily LIVES....a recipe for SUCCESS..an ADRASH..a GOAL to be achieved during our life span.
Its not meant to be read like a mantra...meaninglessly and hope to achieve salvation simply be reading it...ITS GOT TO BE APPLIED. THATS the difference between the KHALSA who APPLIED GURBANI and those who just read it...its meant to be KAMAYEED...you got to churn milk to get butter....just looking at milk wont do anything....the butter is there but you got to work at it... NAAM KAMAII is PRACTICALLY LIVING NAAM....so that it SHINES THROUGH....otherwise CD players also chant endlessly until they wear out....Simply too many "CD players" around Today..thats our misfortune...they just continue to play whatever was RECORDED on them by their Masters...HMV's pure and simple.
Ajmer singh Randhawa
SPNer
Gyani ji you have reffered 1429 pages of Guru Granth Sahib ji instead of 1430 pages. Is this not an anti concept of AGGS ? Why did you not mention the last page ? How can a Singh in Tabya could ignore to recite the Raag-Mala? At least not by a GYANI or a SCHOLAR.
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Ragmala NirNiya
By Prof. Piara Singh Padam
Sikh Missionary College, Amritsar
Just as in Punjabi literature, poets have written love stories of “Sohni-Maheevaal” and “Mirzaa-Sahibaa”, in old Hindustani literature, “Madhavaanal & Kaamkandla” is a story many poets wrote. Prof. M R Maujamdar (Baroda College) is the main researcher in regards to the old literature related to Kamkandla. He has written me a letter in which he says that Pandit Anandhar had written “Madhvaanal Akhian” in a mix of Sanskirt language in the 11th or 14th Century. Prakrit can also be found in this work. The story has been presented as a minor play.
After this, Gurjarti poet Ganpat, who was a resident of Baroch Gujarat, wrote a long poem Madhvaanal Kaamkandla Prabodh in 1584 Bikrami. There are eight chapters and 2565 verses in it. From a literary view, this is important to read for a researcher.
After this, in 1616 Bikrami, Kaushllaabh wrote Maadhvaanal Kaamkandla Chaupaiee. Both these books are written in Rajasthani language and have been influenced by Prakrit.
Based on Sanskrit and Praakrit books, poet Aalam, a contemporary orf Akbar, in 1640 Bk. wrote the book Madhvaanal Katha in Hindi. This has 353 verses and most of it is Chaupaiee style. This story was first very famous in Gujarat and so, after Akbar had conquered Gujarat, he had it translated into Hindi. Aalam has hinted at this in the start of his work.
Prof Maujamdar in his book writes:
“This story appears to have been popular mostly in Western India, only very a late period it came to be adopted in Marathi. The version of the story in Hindi by a Muslim poet, “Alam” styled “Madhavnal Katha” was composed in Hijri samt 991 (1640Bi,. 1584 AD) only a decade after Akbar’s conquest of Gujrat at the expressed desire of Raja Todar Mal for the pleasure of emperor Akbar.”
This belief has been supported by Missr. Bandu Binod, Ram Chand Shukal, Ganga Prashaad and Dr. Hira Lal. This belief by the academics is not based on some hearsay, but based on the book’s internal evidence.
Jgpq rwj kot jug kIjY[ Swh jlwl Cq®piz jIjY idlIpiq Akbr sulqwnw[ spq dIp mih jw kI Awnw[ Drm rwj sB dys clwvw[ ihMdU qurk pMQ sB lwvw[ AwgY nYb mhwmq mMq®I[ in®p todr ml Cq®I[ … dys dys ky Bupiq AwvihM[ duAwry Bir vwr nihM pwvihM[ sMn nO sO ieikAwvn AwhI[ kro kQw ab bolo qwhI[ kCu ApnI kC p®wik®q coro~[ XQw Skq kr Acr joro[
After this, the story in the book (briefly) follows that a singer by the name of Maadhvaanl is a resident of Pushpaavti. All the women of the town are attracted to him. The King exiles Maadhv and from there he goes to King Kamsain’s town of Kaamvati. Here a dancer by the name of Kaamkandla is dancing in the King’s court. Here, poet Alam takes the opportunity to show his knowledge of Raags, and has Kaam Kandla sings the family of Raags according to the Hanumant school. It is important to be a good storyteller so the poet keeps both things in mind. First he paints a picture of many instruments being played and then he begins the singing of the raags. The poet writes:
BIn auPMg bMsrI bwjY[ FwfI jMq® Amim®qI swjY[ surmMfl vwjY Gn qMqI[ rud® bIn swrMg bhu BmqI[ aJlqwl kT qwl bjqvY[ agnI qwl q®Mg aUpjwvY[ jlq qrMg AMim®q kuMflI[ kuMBr bwjY iml Duin BlI[
dohrw- bwjY srb sMgIq gq qMq AqMq Gn qwl[ bhur AlwpY rwg Kt pMc pMc sMg bwl]33]
cOpeI-ip®Qm rwg Byrau vY kreI[ pWchu kwmin muKhu aucreI]....
After this, the entire composition is that which some fan of raags has titled “Ragmala” and entered in Guru Granth Sahib. It should be remembered that the Aadi BiR was put together by Guru Arjan in 1661 Bk. And Ragmala was written in 1640 Bk. For this reason, it is completely baseless for supporters of Ragmala to say that Alam stole this composition from Guru Granth Sahib and put it in his book.
Supporters of Ragmala say that a contemporary of Akbar, Jodh, wrote a Sanskrit book, “Madhvaanal Kaamkandla” and no Alam was around at that time. This Alam, they claim, is from the time of Dashmesh jee. He has translated that Sanskrit book into Hindi and stolen Ragmala out of Guru Granth Sahib and then put it in his own book, because Alam, being a poet of Dashmesh ji, knew Sikh literature very well. They claim that the date in the book of 991 Hijri was put there accidentally and is a translation of the date in the original. They say that the real date of the composition is 1774 Bk. To support this claim, they cite the Dohara:
byd dIp muin ieMd Dr sivqw juvq gqwn[ hMs vwr iQq AstmI swkw ibk®m jwn[
This is the total evidence of the supporters of Ragmala. We want to reflect on this evidence here. Firstly, the above Dohara that gives the date as 1774 Bk. is not found in any old hand written copy. Two hand-written copies have been found of this composition. One is at the Nagri Prcharni Sabha, Benaras and the other is at Bikaner’s Fort Library. This Dohara is not in either copy.
One copy in Gurmukhi script is found in the Guru Ram Das Library in Amritsar. This Dohara is not in that one either. S. Shamsher Singh Ashok, in the copies he found at Punjab University Lahore also did not find the Dohara there. Where the Ragmala supporters are citing this Dohara from is beyond me. Even if this Dohara is in some book’s end, it is the date that the copy was made, not the date of the composition itself, because the date is given clearly at the start as 1640 Bk.
However, the real date of this composition is disputed by the supporters of Ragmala and they it is the creation date of Jodh Kavi’s Sanskrit work, which was accidentally copied by Alam. I want to ask these people, is there even any Jodh Kavi who wrote a Sanskrit work “Madhvaanal Katha” during the time of Akbar? The truth is that in the list of Sanskrit writers at the time of Akbar, there is no mention of any Jodh Kavi. For proof, the books “History of Sanskrit Literature”, Sanskrit Kavita Komdi” and “Sanskrit Kavio(n) Kaa Ithihaas” can be checked. Prof. Maujamdar in a letter to me has aid that “No mention is found of a “Madhavnaal Katha” by any Jodh Kavi in old records, nor have I ever heard of a Jodh Kavi.”
Supporters of Ragmala should tell us where we can find this Sanskrit “Madhav Katha” in either published or unpublished form.
The truth is before academics: there was no Jodh Kavi and no literature by him. Though, if someone now creates some fabricated saloks, they could become a “truth”.
Even if we accept for the sake of argument Shiv Sinh Saroj’s word, which is wrong, that Alam was born in 1712 Bk. this story by him was written in 1774 Bk. This would mean that at the age of 62 during his old age, he liked to write the story of a prostitute. And this would be the same Alam who had spent much time in the Guru’s Darbar. This does not seem possible on a psychological level. Such love stories are generally only written in the time of youth. Secondly, if Alam had written Madhav Katha in Hindi during this time, he certainly would have mentioned Dashmesh ji or Bahadar Shah. But the Kavi only sings the praises of Akbar or Todar Mal.
It can be accepted that during the time of Dashmesh ji, there was another Kavi Alam. However it is certain that the Hindi writer of Maadhvaanal Katha was contemporary of Akbar who wrote Ragmala in his book. This composition was then stolen and put at the end of Sree Guru Granth Sahib by someone and labeled “Ragmala”.
It is possible that Bhai Banno added this composition just like he had added RatanMala, because in the Bhai Banno BiR, Ragmala is found at the end of all other extraneous compositions that were added. If Guru Arjan had added Ragmala, then it was important that it would have been after Mundavani in the Bhai Banno biR (before all the extra compositions). Because, Bhai Banno only added his extraneous material after copying all the bani Bhai Gurdas had written. In Bhai Banno’s BiR, Ragmala comes at the end of all the Banis. This proves that perhaps Bhai Banno heard this from someone and then added it. This remains an issue for research that who added Ragmala. It is possible that even in Bhai Banno’s biR, someone else added Ragmala. But this is clear tha the biR Bhai Banno copied did not have Ragmala in it.
Even now there are 8-10 old hand written BiRs that do not have Ragmala and others that have Ragmala added even after the “Siahee Kee Bidh”. Supporters of Ragmala are unable to answer why these biRs have been left without Ragmala. Up to here was the historical debate on Ragmala.
Now I want to look at the internal arrangement of Ragmala to see where it is from. Firstly, the pronouns in Ragmala show that the nouns have appeared somewhere before it in the composition, which becomes clear when Alam’s Madhvaanal Katha is read. But if we consider the Ragmala in Sree Guru granth Sahib to be an independent composition, the pronouns do not make any sense.
Bhai Veer Singh, in his knowledge, has said that the Ragmala refers to the “rwg rqn prvwr prIAw sbd gwvx AweIAw” in Guru Amardas Sahib’s Anand Sahib. From a grammatical standpoint, I do not understand why nouns used by Guru Amar Das would be referred to in the pronoun form by Guru Arjan Dev jee. If we accept Bhai Sahib’s view based on him being an elder, that “vai” and “oun” ec. Are pronouns for the “Raag Pareeaa(n)’s” nouns, the question arises that what would the meaning of “p®Qm rwg Byrau vY krhI” be? That the raags first sang Bhairo(n)? Meaning the raags came and sang raags? Only Bhai Sahib knows the answer to this problem.
The verbs that follow should also be kept in mind:
1) p®Qm rwg Byrau vY krhI]
2) pMcm hrK idsqK sunwvih]
3) duqIAw mwl kausk Awlwpih]
4) auTih qwn klOl gwien qwr imilavhI]
5) sb imil isrI rwg vY gwvih]
6) iqh pwCY isMDvI b]AlwpI]
7) aUcy suir sUhau puinkInI]
Kst rwg auin gwey sMig rwgnI qIs]
From these verbs it is clear that some singer is singing these raags. Who is doing this all? If Guru Arjan Dev has given this only as a list of raags, then who is being referred to as singing loud and mixing melodies? A smart scholar like Pr. Jodh Singh writes “Guru Granth Sahib has been written in raags and so it was necessary to tell which “mat” singing these raags is appropriate in. Dr. Charan Singh has reached the conclusion that the mat in Guru Sangeet is different from other mats and they have created Ragmala to showcase this.” (August 25, Khalsa Advocate).
1) From this Ragmala, can it be discovered which mat (school) it is right to sing raags in? Can someone intelligent tell which notes for raags and timings/venues are discussed?
2) Secondly, if this has been written to show how to correctly sing the raags, why did Guru Sahib start the pothi at Sree Raag?
3) Why is Bhairon left for 24th spot?
4) Why did not all the raags used find their way into Ragmala?
5) Why were those raags not used also listed?
6) It should be remembered that 9 raags used in BaNee are not found in Ragmala. The truth is that Guru Granth Sahib contains spiritual truth not information on raags. This is just a fictional composition.
Beyond this, the mistakes in Ragmala also show that the person who added it did so after hearing it and did so very quickly. Bngaal is written as Bangaalm, Kalaekhi is Kachaeli, kalingan is kalanka, sindhri is sandoor, barbal is prabal, maalav is saloo, kukani is gungani, kaukhat is khoukhat and jaalandhar is jablidhar. There are other mistakes as well such as “raag raag sang panch barangan” is written “raag ek sang panch barangan” ; “malkaus raag sang laiee” is “maal rag kousak sang laiee”; “kaval kusam panchan kay nama” is “chanpak kay nama”.
These mistakes show that this is not written by Guru jee, but written hurriedly and after being heard only.
Ragmala has a line, “Asht putar bhairav kay gaavehn gain patra” Patr here means prostitute ie. Kamkandla and her friends. Pr. Jodh Singh has written after considerable stretching of meanings that patra does not mean prostitute. But using examples from Maadhv Kathavaa(n)” we can show that it has been used for KamKandla ie. “Nirt karehn nvli gtai kaam kandla paatr” (ch. 5, verse 35)
At any rate, it becomes clear that Ragmala is being sung by a prostitute and Alam is the writer. Those who say this is a composition of Guru Arjan, why can they not explain why it does not have M: 5 in the heading? Why is Nanak not in it? Why is the language different from Guru Arjan Dev jee’s simple and clear language? Where Alam writes “Asht putar mai kahay savari” why is this writing style not found in Guru Arjan Dev jee’s bani anywhere?
Then, the numbering system of Ragmala’s verses also expose it. Instead of 1, 2, 3…the ignorant writer has written “1” 12 times. The person who added it did not put the correct numbers according to the original work, nor are they independently correct. Has Guru jee used such a method anywhere else when numbering verses? The truth is that such a baseless thing that it is weak on all sides. To call such a composition Gurbani is not only a disrespect to Gurbani, it is also a blow to the Sikh faith. Guru jee has clearly said :
bwxI gurU gurUu hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMim®q swry] (982)
Banee is that which contains the truth and naam amrit. This GurbaNee has been concluded at Mundavani. After adding this final seal, there is no question of adding anything after it. Bhai Veer Singh, defying all traditional meanings, defines Mundavni to be a “riddle” to make Ragmala baNee.
Bhai Veer Singh says that Mudavanee found in Sorath Kee Vaar is replied to in the Mundavanee. The truth is that there is no Mundavanee heading there no the word “Mundavanee”. It is there without a tipee as “Mudavanee”. Guru Sahib himself answers this riddle “Eh MudavaNee Satguru paiee, Gursikha(n) ladhee bhaal”. Then why did Guru Arjan Dev jee need to open It further? If it was an answer to the riddle, it should have appeared in Sorath Kee Vaar.
Anyways, the Mundavnee found at the end of Sree Guru Granth Sahib is based on “Mund” or to close. It is the closing seal. Guru Granth Kosh, BaNee Biora, Mahan Kosh and the Faridkoti Teekaa all define it as “seal”. However, in the newer editions of BaNee Biora and Guru Granth Kosh, Mudavanee and Mundavanee have been grouped together and defined as “riddle”. This is not appropriate for a writer but to make Ragmala baaNee, it has not been considered wrong.
Here we also give a list of names of those who did not believe Ragmala to be GurbaNee, which shows what learned people believe: Mahakavi Bhai Santokh Singh; Pandit Tara Singh Nirotam; Gyani Dit Singh and Prof. Gurmukh Singh of the Singh Sabha Movement; well known historian Gyani Gyan Singh; Sadhu Gobind Singh Nirmala; Prof. Hazara Singh; J. C. Cunningham - the author of History of Sikhs; well-known historian Macauliff; Bhai Sahib Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, the author of Mahan Kosh; Master Mota Singh; Master Mehtab Singh, Master Tara Singh, Gyani Sher Singh, Babu Teja Singh, Giani Nahar Singh, Principal Dharmanant Singh, Prof. Teja Singh, Principal Ganga Singh, Dr. Ganda Singh, Prof. Sahib Singh, S. Shamsher Singh Ashok Research Scholar of S.G.P.C., Pandit Kartar Singh Daakhaa, Principal Bawa Harkishan Singh, Principal Narinjan Singh, Prof. Gurbachan Singh Talib; Principal Gurmukhnihal Singh and many others.
G. Gian Singh has said that at the Deepmala of 1906BK, a Panthic decision was reached that Ragmala is not Gurbanee. Giani jee writes:
SMmq aunI sO Cy mwh[ ibk®m pwvn kqk Awih[ sMq idAwl isMG ky fyry[ pMQ iek~Tw Bxo vDyry[ ies pr Bxo vicwr Apwrw[ dipmwl pr inrnyvwrw[ Bxo inbyr vicwria Xw hY[ rwgmwlw gurbwxI nw hY[
After, this when writing the “Rehit Maryada” draft, the Panthic scholars decided to have the bhog at Mundavanee, but despite this, Bhai Veer Singh wrote at the end of Guru Granth Kosh that Gurmat Sangeet is different from other Sangeet traditions and Guru Arjan Dev jee wrote Ragmala to show this. Thus, Ragmala is Bani. Khalsa Samchar newspaper repeated these baseless statements many times and scholars refuted these each time. But because of Bhai Veer Singh being an elder or some other reason, no scholar wrote against him."
By Prof. Piara Singh Padam
Sikh Missionary College, Amritsar
Just as in Punjabi literature, poets have written love stories of “Sohni-Maheevaal” and “Mirzaa-Sahibaa”, in old Hindustani literature, “Madhavaanal & Kaamkandla” is a story many poets wrote. Prof. M R Maujamdar (Baroda College) is the main researcher in regards to the old literature related to Kamkandla. He has written me a letter in which he says that Pandit Anandhar had written “Madhvaanal Akhian” in a mix of Sanskirt language in the 11th or 14th Century. Prakrit can also be found in this work. The story has been presented as a minor play.
After this, Gurjarti poet Ganpat, who was a resident of Baroch Gujarat, wrote a long poem Madhvaanal Kaamkandla Prabodh in 1584 Bikrami. There are eight chapters and 2565 verses in it. From a literary view, this is important to read for a researcher.
After this, in 1616 Bikrami, Kaushllaabh wrote Maadhvaanal Kaamkandla Chaupaiee. Both these books are written in Rajasthani language and have been influenced by Prakrit.
Based on Sanskrit and Praakrit books, poet Aalam, a contemporary orf Akbar, in 1640 Bk. wrote the book Madhvaanal Katha in Hindi. This has 353 verses and most of it is Chaupaiee style. This story was first very famous in Gujarat and so, after Akbar had conquered Gujarat, he had it translated into Hindi. Aalam has hinted at this in the start of his work.
Prof Maujamdar in his book writes:
“This story appears to have been popular mostly in Western India, only very a late period it came to be adopted in Marathi. The version of the story in Hindi by a Muslim poet, “Alam” styled “Madhavnal Katha” was composed in Hijri samt 991 (1640Bi,. 1584 AD) only a decade after Akbar’s conquest of Gujrat at the expressed desire of Raja Todar Mal for the pleasure of emperor Akbar.”
This belief has been supported by Missr. Bandu Binod, Ram Chand Shukal, Ganga Prashaad and Dr. Hira Lal. This belief by the academics is not based on some hearsay, but based on the book’s internal evidence.
Jgpq rwj kot jug kIjY[ Swh jlwl Cq®piz jIjY idlIpiq Akbr sulqwnw[ spq dIp mih jw kI Awnw[ Drm rwj sB dys clwvw[ ihMdU qurk pMQ sB lwvw[ AwgY nYb mhwmq mMq®I[ in®p todr ml Cq®I[ … dys dys ky Bupiq AwvihM[ duAwry Bir vwr nihM pwvihM[ sMn nO sO ieikAwvn AwhI[ kro kQw ab bolo qwhI[ kCu ApnI kC p®wik®q coro~[ XQw Skq kr Acr joro[
After this, the story in the book (briefly) follows that a singer by the name of Maadhvaanl is a resident of Pushpaavti. All the women of the town are attracted to him. The King exiles Maadhv and from there he goes to King Kamsain’s town of Kaamvati. Here a dancer by the name of Kaamkandla is dancing in the King’s court. Here, poet Alam takes the opportunity to show his knowledge of Raags, and has Kaam Kandla sings the family of Raags according to the Hanumant school. It is important to be a good storyteller so the poet keeps both things in mind. First he paints a picture of many instruments being played and then he begins the singing of the raags. The poet writes:
BIn auPMg bMsrI bwjY[ FwfI jMq® Amim®qI swjY[ surmMfl vwjY Gn qMqI[ rud® bIn swrMg bhu BmqI[ aJlqwl kT qwl bjqvY[ agnI qwl q®Mg aUpjwvY[ jlq qrMg AMim®q kuMflI[ kuMBr bwjY iml Duin BlI[
dohrw- bwjY srb sMgIq gq qMq AqMq Gn qwl[ bhur AlwpY rwg Kt pMc pMc sMg bwl]33]
cOpeI-ip®Qm rwg Byrau vY kreI[ pWchu kwmin muKhu aucreI]....
After this, the entire composition is that which some fan of raags has titled “Ragmala” and entered in Guru Granth Sahib. It should be remembered that the Aadi BiR was put together by Guru Arjan in 1661 Bk. And Ragmala was written in 1640 Bk. For this reason, it is completely baseless for supporters of Ragmala to say that Alam stole this composition from Guru Granth Sahib and put it in his book.
Supporters of Ragmala say that a contemporary of Akbar, Jodh, wrote a Sanskrit book, “Madhvaanal Kaamkandla” and no Alam was around at that time. This Alam, they claim, is from the time of Dashmesh jee. He has translated that Sanskrit book into Hindi and stolen Ragmala out of Guru Granth Sahib and then put it in his own book, because Alam, being a poet of Dashmesh ji, knew Sikh literature very well. They claim that the date in the book of 991 Hijri was put there accidentally and is a translation of the date in the original. They say that the real date of the composition is 1774 Bk. To support this claim, they cite the Dohara:
byd dIp muin ieMd Dr sivqw juvq gqwn[ hMs vwr iQq AstmI swkw ibk®m jwn[
This is the total evidence of the supporters of Ragmala. We want to reflect on this evidence here. Firstly, the above Dohara that gives the date as 1774 Bk. is not found in any old hand written copy. Two hand-written copies have been found of this composition. One is at the Nagri Prcharni Sabha, Benaras and the other is at Bikaner’s Fort Library. This Dohara is not in either copy.
One copy in Gurmukhi script is found in the Guru Ram Das Library in Amritsar. This Dohara is not in that one either. S. Shamsher Singh Ashok, in the copies he found at Punjab University Lahore also did not find the Dohara there. Where the Ragmala supporters are citing this Dohara from is beyond me. Even if this Dohara is in some book’s end, it is the date that the copy was made, not the date of the composition itself, because the date is given clearly at the start as 1640 Bk.
However, the real date of this composition is disputed by the supporters of Ragmala and they it is the creation date of Jodh Kavi’s Sanskrit work, which was accidentally copied by Alam. I want to ask these people, is there even any Jodh Kavi who wrote a Sanskrit work “Madhvaanal Katha” during the time of Akbar? The truth is that in the list of Sanskrit writers at the time of Akbar, there is no mention of any Jodh Kavi. For proof, the books “History of Sanskrit Literature”, Sanskrit Kavita Komdi” and “Sanskrit Kavio(n) Kaa Ithihaas” can be checked. Prof. Maujamdar in a letter to me has aid that “No mention is found of a “Madhavnaal Katha” by any Jodh Kavi in old records, nor have I ever heard of a Jodh Kavi.”
Supporters of Ragmala should tell us where we can find this Sanskrit “Madhav Katha” in either published or unpublished form.
The truth is before academics: there was no Jodh Kavi and no literature by him. Though, if someone now creates some fabricated saloks, they could become a “truth”.
Even if we accept for the sake of argument Shiv Sinh Saroj’s word, which is wrong, that Alam was born in 1712 Bk. this story by him was written in 1774 Bk. This would mean that at the age of 62 during his old age, he liked to write the story of a prostitute. And this would be the same Alam who had spent much time in the Guru’s Darbar. This does not seem possible on a psychological level. Such love stories are generally only written in the time of youth. Secondly, if Alam had written Madhav Katha in Hindi during this time, he certainly would have mentioned Dashmesh ji or Bahadar Shah. But the Kavi only sings the praises of Akbar or Todar Mal.
It can be accepted that during the time of Dashmesh ji, there was another Kavi Alam. However it is certain that the Hindi writer of Maadhvaanal Katha was contemporary of Akbar who wrote Ragmala in his book. This composition was then stolen and put at the end of Sree Guru Granth Sahib by someone and labeled “Ragmala”.
It is possible that Bhai Banno added this composition just like he had added RatanMala, because in the Bhai Banno BiR, Ragmala is found at the end of all other extraneous compositions that were added. If Guru Arjan had added Ragmala, then it was important that it would have been after Mundavani in the Bhai Banno biR (before all the extra compositions). Because, Bhai Banno only added his extraneous material after copying all the bani Bhai Gurdas had written. In Bhai Banno’s BiR, Ragmala comes at the end of all the Banis. This proves that perhaps Bhai Banno heard this from someone and then added it. This remains an issue for research that who added Ragmala. It is possible that even in Bhai Banno’s biR, someone else added Ragmala. But this is clear tha the biR Bhai Banno copied did not have Ragmala in it.
Even now there are 8-10 old hand written BiRs that do not have Ragmala and others that have Ragmala added even after the “Siahee Kee Bidh”. Supporters of Ragmala are unable to answer why these biRs have been left without Ragmala. Up to here was the historical debate on Ragmala.
Now I want to look at the internal arrangement of Ragmala to see where it is from. Firstly, the pronouns in Ragmala show that the nouns have appeared somewhere before it in the composition, which becomes clear when Alam’s Madhvaanal Katha is read. But if we consider the Ragmala in Sree Guru granth Sahib to be an independent composition, the pronouns do not make any sense.
Bhai Veer Singh, in his knowledge, has said that the Ragmala refers to the “rwg rqn prvwr prIAw sbd gwvx AweIAw” in Guru Amardas Sahib’s Anand Sahib. From a grammatical standpoint, I do not understand why nouns used by Guru Amar Das would be referred to in the pronoun form by Guru Arjan Dev jee. If we accept Bhai Sahib’s view based on him being an elder, that “vai” and “oun” ec. Are pronouns for the “Raag Pareeaa(n)’s” nouns, the question arises that what would the meaning of “p®Qm rwg Byrau vY krhI” be? That the raags first sang Bhairo(n)? Meaning the raags came and sang raags? Only Bhai Sahib knows the answer to this problem.
The verbs that follow should also be kept in mind:
1) p®Qm rwg Byrau vY krhI]
2) pMcm hrK idsqK sunwvih]
3) duqIAw mwl kausk Awlwpih]
4) auTih qwn klOl gwien qwr imilavhI]
5) sb imil isrI rwg vY gwvih]
6) iqh pwCY isMDvI b]AlwpI]
7) aUcy suir sUhau puinkInI]
Kst rwg auin gwey sMig rwgnI qIs]
From these verbs it is clear that some singer is singing these raags. Who is doing this all? If Guru Arjan Dev has given this only as a list of raags, then who is being referred to as singing loud and mixing melodies? A smart scholar like Pr. Jodh Singh writes “Guru Granth Sahib has been written in raags and so it was necessary to tell which “mat” singing these raags is appropriate in. Dr. Charan Singh has reached the conclusion that the mat in Guru Sangeet is different from other mats and they have created Ragmala to showcase this.” (August 25, Khalsa Advocate).
1) From this Ragmala, can it be discovered which mat (school) it is right to sing raags in? Can someone intelligent tell which notes for raags and timings/venues are discussed?
2) Secondly, if this has been written to show how to correctly sing the raags, why did Guru Sahib start the pothi at Sree Raag?
3) Why is Bhairon left for 24th spot?
4) Why did not all the raags used find their way into Ragmala?
5) Why were those raags not used also listed?
6) It should be remembered that 9 raags used in BaNee are not found in Ragmala. The truth is that Guru Granth Sahib contains spiritual truth not information on raags. This is just a fictional composition.
Beyond this, the mistakes in Ragmala also show that the person who added it did so after hearing it and did so very quickly. Bngaal is written as Bangaalm, Kalaekhi is Kachaeli, kalingan is kalanka, sindhri is sandoor, barbal is prabal, maalav is saloo, kukani is gungani, kaukhat is khoukhat and jaalandhar is jablidhar. There are other mistakes as well such as “raag raag sang panch barangan” is written “raag ek sang panch barangan” ; “malkaus raag sang laiee” is “maal rag kousak sang laiee”; “kaval kusam panchan kay nama” is “chanpak kay nama”.
These mistakes show that this is not written by Guru jee, but written hurriedly and after being heard only.
Ragmala has a line, “Asht putar bhairav kay gaavehn gain patra” Patr here means prostitute ie. Kamkandla and her friends. Pr. Jodh Singh has written after considerable stretching of meanings that patra does not mean prostitute. But using examples from Maadhv Kathavaa(n)” we can show that it has been used for KamKandla ie. “Nirt karehn nvli gtai kaam kandla paatr” (ch. 5, verse 35)
At any rate, it becomes clear that Ragmala is being sung by a prostitute and Alam is the writer. Those who say this is a composition of Guru Arjan, why can they not explain why it does not have M: 5 in the heading? Why is Nanak not in it? Why is the language different from Guru Arjan Dev jee’s simple and clear language? Where Alam writes “Asht putar mai kahay savari” why is this writing style not found in Guru Arjan Dev jee’s bani anywhere?
Then, the numbering system of Ragmala’s verses also expose it. Instead of 1, 2, 3…the ignorant writer has written “1” 12 times. The person who added it did not put the correct numbers according to the original work, nor are they independently correct. Has Guru jee used such a method anywhere else when numbering verses? The truth is that such a baseless thing that it is weak on all sides. To call such a composition Gurbani is not only a disrespect to Gurbani, it is also a blow to the Sikh faith. Guru jee has clearly said :
bwxI gurU gurUu hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMim®q swry] (982)
Banee is that which contains the truth and naam amrit. This GurbaNee has been concluded at Mundavani. After adding this final seal, there is no question of adding anything after it. Bhai Veer Singh, defying all traditional meanings, defines Mundavni to be a “riddle” to make Ragmala baNee.
Bhai Veer Singh says that Mudavanee found in Sorath Kee Vaar is replied to in the Mundavanee. The truth is that there is no Mundavanee heading there no the word “Mundavanee”. It is there without a tipee as “Mudavanee”. Guru Sahib himself answers this riddle “Eh MudavaNee Satguru paiee, Gursikha(n) ladhee bhaal”. Then why did Guru Arjan Dev jee need to open It further? If it was an answer to the riddle, it should have appeared in Sorath Kee Vaar.
Anyways, the Mundavnee found at the end of Sree Guru Granth Sahib is based on “Mund” or to close. It is the closing seal. Guru Granth Kosh, BaNee Biora, Mahan Kosh and the Faridkoti Teekaa all define it as “seal”. However, in the newer editions of BaNee Biora and Guru Granth Kosh, Mudavanee and Mundavanee have been grouped together and defined as “riddle”. This is not appropriate for a writer but to make Ragmala baaNee, it has not been considered wrong.
Here we also give a list of names of those who did not believe Ragmala to be GurbaNee, which shows what learned people believe: Mahakavi Bhai Santokh Singh; Pandit Tara Singh Nirotam; Gyani Dit Singh and Prof. Gurmukh Singh of the Singh Sabha Movement; well known historian Gyani Gyan Singh; Sadhu Gobind Singh Nirmala; Prof. Hazara Singh; J. C. Cunningham - the author of History of Sikhs; well-known historian Macauliff; Bhai Sahib Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, the author of Mahan Kosh; Master Mota Singh; Master Mehtab Singh, Master Tara Singh, Gyani Sher Singh, Babu Teja Singh, Giani Nahar Singh, Principal Dharmanant Singh, Prof. Teja Singh, Principal Ganga Singh, Dr. Ganda Singh, Prof. Sahib Singh, S. Shamsher Singh Ashok Research Scholar of S.G.P.C., Pandit Kartar Singh Daakhaa, Principal Bawa Harkishan Singh, Principal Narinjan Singh, Prof. Gurbachan Singh Talib; Principal Gurmukhnihal Singh and many others.
G. Gian Singh has said that at the Deepmala of 1906BK, a Panthic decision was reached that Ragmala is not Gurbanee. Giani jee writes:
SMmq aunI sO Cy mwh[ ibk®m pwvn kqk Awih[ sMq idAwl isMG ky fyry[ pMQ iek~Tw Bxo vDyry[ ies pr Bxo vicwr Apwrw[ dipmwl pr inrnyvwrw[ Bxo inbyr vicwria Xw hY[ rwgmwlw gurbwxI nw hY[
After, this when writing the “Rehit Maryada” draft, the Panthic scholars decided to have the bhog at Mundavanee, but despite this, Bhai Veer Singh wrote at the end of Guru Granth Kosh that Gurmat Sangeet is different from other Sangeet traditions and Guru Arjan Dev jee wrote Ragmala to show this. Thus, Ragmala is Bani. Khalsa Samchar newspaper repeated these baseless statements many times and scholars refuted these each time. But because of Bhai Veer Singh being an elder or some other reason, no scholar wrote against him."
Inder Singh ji, please answer the questions before moving on:
It is useless if you don't understand it and repeat it like something in a Madrasaa. Is it not?
What is the point of putting the Sri Guru Granth Sahib to bed? Why can't it be kept in a clean cupboard?
It is just a building. It should never be seen as an object of worship. Next we will be facing it like the Kaaba. Would this be good?
Which aspects of it?
Where has he stated this? Why is a person not a Sikh without Gurmatra?
How and where does he belittle them? Please show cited examples.
Where does he say this? Please cite exact phrase where he says this? No links to Panthic/Nindya.org please.
Why are they shameless? They probably believe he was treated unfairly? It would not be the first time someone was treated unfairly by our illustrious headquarters? I would say it was brave of them to make a stand in the face of violent and hate filled opposition.
NO LINKS TO AKJ/DDT/PANTHIC WEEKLY PLEASE!
It is useless if you don't understand it and repeat it like something in a Madrasaa. Is it not?
What is the point of putting the Sri Guru Granth Sahib to bed? Why can't it be kept in a clean cupboard?
It is just a building. It should never be seen as an object of worship. Next we will be facing it like the Kaaba. Would this be good?
Which aspects of it?
Where has he stated this? Why is a person not a Sikh without Gurmatra?
How and where does he belittle them? Please show cited examples.
Where does he say this? Please cite exact phrase where he says this? No links to Panthic/Nindya.org please.
Why are they shameless? They probably believe he was treated unfairly? It would not be the first time someone was treated unfairly by our illustrious headquarters? I would say it was brave of them to make a stand in the face of violent and hate filled opposition.
NO LINKS TO AKJ/DDT/PANTHIC WEEKLY PLEASE!
Ajmer Singh Ji.Gurfateh.
Besides the excellent answer provided earlier on Raagmala..( Raagmala is NOT Gurbani )
There are a few PAGES of Tatkara...also. Would you consider these as part of Gurbani ? I dont.
I DONT read the Raagmala at my private paath bhogs. I DO READ it at someones samagam if he wants it or Gurdwara Samagams as this is SRM sanctioned. The tatkara is NOT READ at any Paath Arambhta. The SGGS COMPLETES AT MUNDAWNNI MH 5 which is the SEAL STAMP of Guru Arjun Ji Sahib.
The SGGS is complete with the Concluding SLOK of THANKSGIVING...Slok mh 5 Tera Kita jatoh nahin..
SEE how Beautifully symmtery SGGS has..BEGINS with SLOK..AAD SACH jugaad sach ....and ENDs with Slok..Tera Kita...ALL ends tied up so nicely...SAMPOORAN GURU..SGGS.
Besides the excellent answer provided earlier on Raagmala..( Raagmala is NOT Gurbani )
There are a few PAGES of Tatkara...also. Would you consider these as part of Gurbani ? I dont.
I DONT read the Raagmala at my private paath bhogs. I DO READ it at someones samagam if he wants it or Gurdwara Samagams as this is SRM sanctioned. The tatkara is NOT READ at any Paath Arambhta. The SGGS COMPLETES AT MUNDAWNNI MH 5 which is the SEAL STAMP of Guru Arjun Ji Sahib.
The SGGS is complete with the Concluding SLOK of THANKSGIVING...Slok mh 5 Tera Kita jatoh nahin..
SEE how Beautifully symmtery SGGS has..BEGINS with SLOK..AAD SACH jugaad sach ....and ENDs with Slok..Tera Kita...ALL ends tied up so nicely...SAMPOORAN GURU..SGGS.
Ajmer singh Randhawa
SPNer
Gyani ji, Gur Fateh.
As a Pandit or precher knows to web the art of words, you are very clever.You write that you do not read Raag-mala at your place but to keep other's sentiments not hurt, you read at Gurudwara or at Samagams. You fool yourself by thus act of you.
See:--You prove that the seai stamp of Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji is there at Mundawani M5, but you forget that this Granth is not accepted by Sikh Panth and Gur-gaddi was not bestowed to this Granth. It consists only 505 pages and is at Kartarpur with the heirs of Dhirmalliye.
You should go and read the Granth written by Bhai Mani Singh ji /Baba Deep singh ji. You will get your answer over there.
For your kind information almost every writer after completion and composition of his book conclude with something special to adorn in praise of his writing etc. Raagmal seems a composition to thanks all the fictional family of Raags.I have read that a committee was formed under supervision of Sikh philosophers like Bhai Veer Singh ji and it approved , submitted it's report after visiting Kartar pur Sahab.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
As a Pandit or precher knows to web the art of words, you are very clever.You write that you do not read Raag-mala at your place but to keep other's sentiments not hurt, you read at Gurudwara or at Samagams. You fool yourself by thus act of you.
See:--You prove that the seai stamp of Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji is there at Mundawani M5, but you forget that this Granth is not accepted by Sikh Panth and Gur-gaddi was not bestowed to this Granth. It consists only 505 pages and is at Kartarpur with the heirs of Dhirmalliye.
You should go and read the Granth written by Bhai Mani Singh ji /Baba Deep singh ji. You will get your answer over there.
For your kind information almost every writer after completion and composition of his book conclude with something special to adorn in praise of his writing etc. Raagmal seems a composition to thanks all the fictional family of Raags.I have read that a committee was formed under supervision of Sikh philosophers like Bhai Veer Singh ji and it approved , submitted it's report after visiting Kartar pur Sahab.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
Ajmer Singh ji,
I am losing the will to live at the moment.
Please can I ask everyone who participates to make their statments backed up by either links to their sources, or to books and page numbers. There are people following this debate who have no idea what is going on.
PLEASE!!!!
Ajmer singh Randhawa
SPNer
Veer Randeep Singh ji
It is upto you and your decision. I am very much clear. I am a devoted Sikh not a historian to keep all the records with me and have faith in my religion as every body knows that Guru Naanak ji says,"Kich kahiye kich suniye Naanak" So i need not to comment any more. Only the SPN will take the decision.
I have truthfully stated what i know. If you don't agree, its not my fault, The Beerh written by Guru Arjan Dev ji is present at Kartarpur Saahab, you yourself can check the Seal stamp and number of pages consisted.
Regards. Gur fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
It is upto you and your decision. I am very much clear. I am a devoted Sikh not a historian to keep all the records with me and have faith in my religion as every body knows that Guru Naanak ji says,"Kich kahiye kich suniye Naanak" So i need not to comment any more. Only the SPN will take the decision.
I have truthfully stated what i know. If you don't agree, its not my fault, The Beerh written by Guru Arjan Dev ji is present at Kartarpur Saahab, you yourself can check the Seal stamp and number of pages consisted.
Regards. Gur fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
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You must appreciate, we have thousands upon thousands of people reading this forum, therefore it is our collective duty to post as much information for people to follow as possible.
It is no good just posting statements, because many people may not know the background to the statement.
Thanks
Ajmer singh Randhawa
SPNer
Veerji, in that case you should ban all new members to join this forum other than scholars and historians. What so ever we have sudied in our life, is that not sufficient to quote? whether only proves of records are accepted not the statements in which useful knowledge is given. If this is the trend let these scholars argue, better we leave the forum.
Somebody has rightly said,"Nakkarkhane main tooti ki awaz kaun sunega."
Gur fateh and chardi kalaa to all.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
Somebody has rightly said,"Nakkarkhane main tooti ki awaz kaun sunega."
Gur fateh and chardi kalaa to all.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
I am sorry you feel like that, but when you make a statement like....
I would like to know more. That is not unreasonable. You obviously have some knowledge and are not a newcomer.
Guru Piayario Jios,
Ajmer Singh Randhawa ji,
Gurfateh Ji............
MY my....please calm down ji and re-read my post. Whatever gave you the idea that i am so clever....that the SODHIS of Kartarpur gave me their copy of the Kartarpuri Bir to "parkash" in my home ??? I ADMIT..I have seen that Bir..BUT ONLY ONCE...and that also under the eagle eyes of the Custodian who sat with me while I took a look at the beginning/and the end.I was not allowed to TOUCH any page... No Photography was allowed. NOW however there is a Digitised Copy avialble to GENUINE SCHOLARS....and you may be able to viist that as you are in India while I will have to wait a while....
The SGGS i have Paraksh at my home..and also at the 150 Gurdwaras in malaysia/Singapore/Thailand/Indonesia...that i have visited and read...ALL have the Mundawwnni Mh 5 Stamp and Seal of Guru Arjun Ji Sahib....and the Slok Mh 5 Tera Kita Jato Nhain Concluding Slok. These are copies of the DAMDAMI BIR that is SAMPOORAN GURU of the Guru Khalsa Panth and which was Bestowed GURGADEE by Guru Gobind Singh ji at Naded in 1708.
I am SURE Every SGGS in the World that is paraksh..is the EXACT SAME COPY as the one I have....From what I can personally prove..THATS the exact same SGGS i also saw and read at Various TAKHATS, including Harmandir Sahib, Akal Takhat and hundreds of Gurswaras in Punjab/India also....
SIKH PANTH has ONLY ONE SAMPOORAN GURU..and that is SGGS which has the Mundawnni SEAL of MH 5.
EVEN when Guru Gobind Singh Ji REWROTE the entire AAD GRANTH via scribe Baba Mani Singh and made copies via Baba deep Singh Shaheed at DAMDAM SAHIB to add Bnis of Guru teg Bahadur Ji Sahib.......Guru Ji KEPT INTACT the CONCLUDING SEAL/STAMP OF Mundawnni MH 5. Guru Ji DID NOT SHIFT the Concluding SEAL form its FINAL PLACE...THAT is the Biggest PROOF that SGGS ENDS at Mundawnni SEAL. ( Its Akin to an "Authorised person" who has the AUTHORITY to "OPEN" a KHAZANNAH warehouse...with his KEY, remove the LOCK..place some more valuables inside..and then RE-LOCK the LOCK in the SAME PLACE !! Guur Gobind Singh Ji Had the AUTHORITY..to RE-WRITE...RE-ARRANGE..the Gurbani in the AAD GRANTH...and He used it...to ADD GURBANI OF GURU TEG BAHADUR JI....and then GURU GOBIND SINGH JI placed back the SEAL of the ORIGINAL WRITER (Guru Arjun Ji sahib) at its ORIGINAL PLACE..and resealed the SGGS.
Raagmala is NOT Gurbani and thats that. It says so in the Sikh Rehat maryada of Akal Takhat. Any one can read or not read..only injunction is NOT to Print a SGGS MINUS it.
Ajmer singh Randhawa
SPNer
Veer Randeep Singh ji, no doubt by your statement i was hurt, I may not be having the records, may be due to my foolishness or whatever you say but you are a learnered person and having good knowledge of the subject. I request you to please be polite and guide the ignorants like me to gain knowledge from brilliant minded people like you.
Veer ji I again say that you would be certainly aware that the committee was formed at Amritsar and was sent to Kartarpur Sahab to check the authenticity by looking seal, stamp and date etc. Bhai Veer Singh ji was also a member. If i go to search the records, i shall have to visit many places and i won't be able to answer at earliest. This committee submitted its report than only Panth agreed to recite Raagmala. I am sure my assertions are not wrong. I have studied full report.
If a person like me is aware of that, how could you not be of that important subject be unaware. That is strange.
If i write to SGPC they even won't provide me the records easily. In future sometime i must send you the details after visiting Sikh reference library etc.
I apologize if hurt your sentiments in ignorance.
Gur fateh.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
Veer ji I again say that you would be certainly aware that the committee was formed at Amritsar and was sent to Kartarpur Sahab to check the authenticity by looking seal, stamp and date etc. Bhai Veer Singh ji was also a member. If i go to search the records, i shall have to visit many places and i won't be able to answer at earliest. This committee submitted its report than only Panth agreed to recite Raagmala. I am sure my assertions are not wrong. I have studied full report.
If a person like me is aware of that, how could you not be of that important subject be unaware. That is strange.
If i write to SGPC they even won't provide me the records easily. In future sometime i must send you the details after visiting Sikh reference library etc.
I apologize if hurt your sentiments in ignorance.
Gur fateh.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
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