Interfaith Nanak Is The Guru - Nanak Is The Lord Himself - Page 865, SGGS

[Shaheen]

Yes it not only forbids but tells to avoid them

What do you say to the following as already quoted before:


Page 249, Line 2
ਸੁਰ ਸਿਧ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਗੁਣ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਗਤੀ ਗਾਇਆ ॥
सुर सिध गण गंधरब मुनि जन गुण अनिक भगती गाइआ ॥
Sur siḏẖ gaṇ ganḏẖarab mun jan guṇ anik bẖagṯī gā▫i▫ā.
The gods, the Siddhas, the angels, the heavenly singers, the silent sages and the devotees sing Your countless Glorious Praises.
Guru Arjan Dev

 

[chazSingh]

What do you say to the following as already quoted before:


Page 249, Line 2
ਸੁਰ ਸਿਧ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਗੁਣ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਗਤੀ ਗਾਇਆ ॥
सुर सिध गण गंधरब मुनि जन गुण अनिक भगती गाइआ ॥
Sur siḏẖ gaṇ ganḏẖarab mun jan guṇ anik bẖagṯī gā▫i▫ā.
The gods, the Siddhas, the angels, the heavenly singers, the silent sages and the devotees sing Your countless Glorious Praises.
Guru Arjan Dev

Shaheen Ji,

i'm not sure you have read my posts and contemplated what i've written.

The one God has created countless...countless things, beings....all are creations that exists within the One...no 'god' (with lower case g), angel, siddhas, hevenly singers or the silent sages equate to the One...or are equal to the One....just as a drop of water taken from the ocean is not equal or equate to the ocean..

Therefore it is important that if a person wants to reach the target, or the goal...that they know where they intend to get to...
As Sikhs, we intend to unravel the invisible behind the visible...the One...not everything else that exists beneath, whether that be gods, angels, heavenly singers, or the silent sages...or my cat...

Only the One from which everything else emanated from is the focus...and that is very clear by the first shabad in SGGS Ji....IK ONG KAAR

I hope that is clear

 

[Shaheen]

Only the One from which everything else emanated from is the focus...and that is very clear by the first shabad in SGGS Ji....IK ONG KAAR

I get your point in so far as the concept of the 'creator is in creation ' is concerned. However, such theology should not claim to be monotheistic. Also, my reply was to the other member who I have quoted (ie: Yes it not only forbids but tells to avoid them) in my reply. My point was that SGGS recongises the validity of other gods (rather than a refutation of them) - 'The Goddess of Wealth' being one of them.

Anyway, I have got the gist of your replies and thank you to all of you. I understand, this is your belief and you feel that such experience is personal and may not be explained.

May the ones upon guidance radiate light!

 

[japjisahib04]

What do you say to the following as already quoted before:
Page 249, Line 2
ਸੁਰ ਸਿਧ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਗੁਣ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਗਤੀ ਗਾਇਆ ॥
सुर सिध गण गंधरब मुनि जन गुण अनिक भगती गाइआ ॥
Sur siḏẖ gaṇ ganḏẖarab mun jan guṇ anik bẖagṯī gā▫i▫ā.
The gods, the Siddhas, the angels, the heavenly singers, the silent sages and the devotees sing Your countless Glorious Praises. Guru Arjan Dev

Let us start from japjisahib where it says, 'ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਿਧ ਪੀਰ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਾਥ ॥ ਸੁਣਿਐ ਧਰਤਿ ਧਵਲ ਆਕਾਸ ॥ By listening the inner voice, a new state of mind develop and to this state of mind, divine common intellect is sidh, peer, sur and nath, thus there is no physical gods, siddhas.

 

[Searching]

''My mind has become sad and depressed; how can I see God, the Great Giver? My Friend and Companion is the Dear Lord, the Guru, the Architect of Destiny. The One Lord, the Architect of Destiny, is the Master of the Goddess of Wealth; how can I, in my sadness, meet You?'' (SGGS p247)

Dear Shaheen ji let me do some editing in your post. I will only change the bold words.


''My mind has become sad and depressed; how can I see God, the Great Giver? My Friend and Companion is the Dear Lord, the Guru, the Architect of Destiny. The One Lord, the Architect of Destiny, is the Master of the Goddess of Wealth; how can I, in my sadness, meet You?'' (SGGS p247)."

I hope from the above post it clear that the Lord is one.When Gurbani was written it was meant to address the local people in a language they can understand. India has majority Hindu population which believes in Maa Laxmi as Goddess of wealth. When SGGS says that the The One Lord is the master of Goddess of wealth it means there is only one God, only one supreme being who the master of the universe, even of those many Gods and Goddesses which some people believe to be true.

 

[Shaheen]

But, the way it has been put in the verse suggests that there is validity of 'the Goddess of Wealth', for the verse does not denounce the idea. In any case, this would hardly make any difference as everything is god under the principle:

The Creation is in the Creator (God), and the Creator is in the Creation,
totally pervading and permeating all places (sggs 1350).

Also,
'Nanak is the Guru - Nanak is the Lord Himself' (p864)

The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth. First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad. (SGGS p1407)

 

[Ishna]

Shaheen, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not the Quran and cannot be read in the same way. Please remember this. You can't approach it in the same way and get the proper understanding. It's like trying to play a digital TV transmission through an analog TV set - you need the digital receiver.

 

[Ishna]

As a counterpoint, Shaneen Ji, what do you make of this shabad by Bhagat Kabeer, on panna 332?

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਬੈਰਾਗਣਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ
Rāg ga▫oṛī bairāgaṇ Kabīr jī
Raag Gauree Bairaagan, Kabeer Jee:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਜੀਵਤ ਪਿਤਰ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਕੋਊ ਮੂਏਂ ਸਿਰਾਧ ਕਰਾਹੀ ॥
Jīvaṯ piṯar na mānai ko▫ū mū▫eʼn sirāḏẖ karāhī.
He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

ਪਿਤਰ ਭੀ ਬਪੁਰੇ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਕਊਆ ਕੂਕਰ ਖਾਹੀ ॥੧॥
Piṯar bẖī bapure kaho ki▫o pāvahi ka▫ū▫ā kūkar kẖāhī. ||1||
Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? ||1||

ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕੁਸਲੁ ਬਤਾਵਹੁ ਕੋਈ ॥
Mo ka▫o kusal baṯāvhu ko▫ī.
If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!

ਕੁਸਲੁ ਕੁਸਲੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਜਗੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਕੁਸਲੁ ਭੀ ਕੈਸੇ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Kusal kusal karṯe jag binsai kusal bẖī kaise ho▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found? ||1||Pause||

ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਜੀਉ ਦੇਹੀ ॥
Mātī ke kar ḏevī ḏevā ṯis āgai jī▫o ḏehī.
Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.

ਐਸੇ ਪਿਤਰ ਤੁਮਾਰੇ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਆਪਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਨ ਲੇਹੀ ॥੨॥
Aise piṯar ṯumāre kahī▫ahi āpan kahi▫ā na lehī. ||2||
Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want. ||2||

ਸਰਜੀਉ ਕਾਟਹਿ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲ ਕਉ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
Sarjī▫o kātėh nirjī▫o pūjėh anṯ kāl ka▫o bẖārī.
You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਭੈ ਡੂਬੇ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ॥੩॥
Rām nām kī gaṯ nahī jānī bẖai dūbe sansārī. ||3||
You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean. ||3||

ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਡੋਲਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾ ॥
Ḏevī ḏevā pūjėh dolėh pārbarahm nahī jānā.
You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਚੇਤਿਆ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਲਪਟਾਨਾ ॥੪॥੧॥੪੫॥
Kahaṯ Kabīr akul nahī cẖeṯi▫ā bikẖi▫ā si▫o laptānā. ||4||1||45||
Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. ||4||1||45||​

 

[chazSingh]

But, the way it has been put in the verse suggests that there is validity of 'the Goddess of Wealth', for the verse does not denounce the idea. In any case, this would hardly make any difference as everything is god under the principle:

The Creation is in the Creator (God), and the Creator is in the Creation,
totally pervading and permeating all places (sggs 1350).

Also,
'Nanak is the Guru - Nanak is the Lord Himself' (p864)

The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth. First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad. (SGGS p1407)

Now you are getting somewhere Shaheen Ji

do we waste our precious time and life worrying about the if there are other gods, angels etc etc.....or do we go to the one that created everything including any possible gods or angels or anything...

so when you say...everything is God under the principle...this also includes me....and you...we are part of that whole...that 'One' and we can experience it, whilst alive in this human body...within us...we can unravel it all, before our breaths come to a halt.

The question is how can we do this...and that is where there are several verses of guidance in SGGS Ji to put into daily practice to start to make this happen...

 

[Original]

Quran

However, such theology should not claim to be monotheistic

It doesn't theologically, but do ontologically, that is, ACT n BEING of GOD respectively.

 

[Shaheen]

Shaheen, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not the Quran and cannot be read in the same way

I don't wish to argue, but discuss. I don't wish to cause offence to your ideals, but put forward what I think of them. Peace!

You have the right to say how SGGS should be read. However, if you want to call others to what you belive to be good for everybody, then it will be better for you to accept the common human understanding of a subject matter. Things are understood at their very basic level. For example: When you enter into a shop and see the notice, 'Cash sales only', you clearly get the message that you cannot use a credit card to buy things there.

So, I see SGGS as a human being should and we don't have any problem with the humanity reading Quran and understanding from the apparent. The Quran challenges humanity to find contradictions therein. The sign of truthfullness of a message is in its coherence. If SGGS condemns idol worshiping of the Hindus - then it must denounce it in all its forms. The Hindus believe, Krishna was an incarnation of God. Therefore, if SGGS is to condemn that, it must not approve or give the message that such and such persons are incarnations of God.

 

[Shaheen]

ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਡੋਲਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾ ॥
Ḏevī ḏevā pūjėh dolėh pārbarahm nahī jānā.
You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

Is the True Lord not the master of the so-called 'Goddess of Wealth' - according to SGGS as quoted before (p247)? Here comes another incoherence of the message. It is good to condemn worship of other than the true Lord, a worthy value to be applauded. But, how do you justify the legality of the 'Goddess of Wealth' for example?

 

[chazSingh]

Is the True Lord not the master of the so-called 'Goddess of Wealth' - according to SGGS as quoted before (p247)? Here comes another incoherence of the message. It is good to condemn worship of other than the true Lord, a worthy value to be applauded. But, how do you justify the legality of the 'Goddess of Wealth' for example?

in my opinion, and it's only my opinion based on my dive into SGGS Ji...which is endless in its depth.

there are countless creations of the one supreme Lord....these creations include gods, angels, higher beings, higher souls, many realms, dimensions...countless...beyond imagination....the Supreme Lords creative power is endless...

now...what happened was people started to idol worship these creations...call them gods, angels, higher beings etc...and completely lost sight of the truth...the truth being that everything is a creation of the One Lord...all these other creations (gods, angels, humans, cats and dogs) cannot and should not be seen or served as God...hence why Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji ordered for Him not to be seen as God...the idol worship stopped there with his Command.

Hence the message in SGGS ji...if you want to know and experience the ultimate truth...leave everything else behind...it holds little value...go to the source of everything because when the creation is dissolved...all that will be left is the invisible...what was there in the beginning, what is here now...and what will always forever be...the ocean from which all the waves emanated from...only the ocean matters...anything else we do and anything else we pray to holds little value..

therefore i hope this answers your obsession with multiple gods they are not what we should waste our time with...they are not the ultimate source of everything...they are part of creation...which has many layers beyond what we see as physical

nevertheless understand that creation will come to an end as part of its cycle...and therefore lets put our effort into experiencing that ocean now...in this human life...which even the gods want to be blessed with...because the supreme Lord can only be experienced through this Human body...the human body, the greatest creation of Waheguru...so why would anyone waste their time praying to gods or angels when the angels and gods are also praying for the chance to become human..so that they can also experience the ultimate truth...the Ik...the ONE

Serving the Guru, devotional worship is practiced.
Then, this human body is obtained.
Even the gods long for this human body.
So vibrate that human body, and think of serving the Lord.
Vibrate, and meditate on the Lord of the Universe, and never forget Him.
This is the blessed opportunity of this human incarnation. ||1||Pause||
As long as the disease of old age has not come to the body,
and as long as death has not come and seized the body,
and as long as your voice has not lost its power,
O mortal being, vibrate and meditate on the Lord of the World
If you do not vibrate and meditate on Him now, when will you, O Sibing of Destiny?
When the end comes, you will not be able to vibrate and meditate on Him
Whatever you have to do - now is the best time to do it.
Otherwise, you shall regret and repent afterwards, and you shall not be carried across to the other side. ||3||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=4134

i hope this shabad answers you questions...it message is about as clear as daylight


God Bless...

 

[Shaheen]

hence why Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji ordered for Him not to be seen as God...the idol worship stopped there with his Command.

Does his command abrogate the validity of godhood of the Gurus before him? Surely, if the Gurus were God incarnate (ie God took birth in them) - then he was also God! Forgive me for my 'obsession', for when I read SGGS, I see the apparent conflict.

 

[Searching]

But, the way it has been put in the verse suggests that there is validity of 'the Goddess of Wealth', for the verse does not denounce the idea. In any case, this would hardly make any difference as everything is god under the principle:

SGGS denounces the idea of multiple Gods and Goddesses in many places. One has to look at the whole picture. Even this verse renders the Goddess of wealth human like, under the control of the one lord, like everyone else.
SGGS is not like Quran or Bible where each verse is an instruction to the reader. Its a poetry and lot of it is written keeping in mind the beliefs and culture of people of that time. You have to read it in that context to get the gist of it.

 

[Searching]

Anyway I will strongly recommend that you read SGGS from page one if you really want to understand the meaning in it. Picking up verses from here and there without context wont help.

 

[chazSingh]

Does his command abrogate the validity of godhood of the Gurus before him? Surely, if the Gurus were God incarnate (ie God took birth in them) - then he was also God! Forgive me for my 'obsession', for when I read SGGS, I see the apparent conflict.

Did you not read my an analogy of drop and ocean...or waves and ocean. Try to understand that a little...it gives you an indication of what we all are in relation to the Creator. ..after that you need to put the guidance into practice and slowly you will start to understand what the prophets were...what Jesus was...what the Gurus were...what me and you are...

God bless.

 

[chazSingh]

Does his command abrogate the validity of godhood of the Gurus before him? Surely, if the Gurus were God incarnate (ie God took birth in them) - then he was also God! Forgive me for my 'obsession', for when I read SGGS, I see the apparent conflict.

Just another note on this. God doesn't take birth in anyone...He is already there as depicted by the ocean analogy...it is our ego identity which doesn't allow us to see hear and feel him within us and everything. The Gurus were already in a state where ego identity was at an absolute minimum...and communion/immersion in God was in its full glory...and now SGGS ji is inspiring us to also reach a similar state.

This is why if you or your son are really interested then read from the beginning and get a couple of books for guidance.

But until you dip into the ocean...most if it will not make any sense because God is just beyond the capabilities of the mind to understand. ..it's just something that has to be experienced by yourself.

 

[Original]

I don't wish to argue, but discuss. I don't wish to cause offence to your ideals, but put forward what I think of them. Peace!

You have the right to say how SGGS should be read. However, if you want to call others to what you belive to be good for everybody, then it will be better for you to accept the common human understanding of a subject matter. Things are understood at their very basic level. For example: When you enter into a shop and see the notice, 'Cash sales only', you clearly get the message that you cannot use a credit card to buy things there.

So, I see SGGS as a human being should and we don't have any problem with the humanity reading Quran and understanding from the apparent. The Quran challenges humanity to find contradictions therein. The sign of truthfullness of a message is in its coherence. If SGGS condemns idol worshiping of the Hindus - then it must denounce it in all its forms. The Hindus believe, Krishna was an incarnation of God. Therefore, if SGGS is to condemn that, it must not approve or give the message that such and such persons are incarnations of God.

Dearest Shaheen Ji

Dearest Shaheen Ji

Are you genuinely here for clarifications or interrogations ? Seems rather odd, coz, what ought to serve number of conducive purposes as an interfaith-dialogue systems in achieving community ethos is beginning to look more like a fishing expedition with an ulterior motive. The interfaith value of SGGSJ is central in uniting humankind and yet, here you are with a personal agenda ripping it apart. I think we should all revisit and remind ourselves of the obligations to further religious pluralism and bring about harmony in the strife-torn world than to nit-pick ideological and theological concepts of our respective faiths.

As I said before [post #9], SGGSJ is not restrictive and negative, but rather active and positive, the priori therefore is, good, beautiful, n just worldview, with emphasis placed on unity in diversity. Guru Nanak weaves it beautifully, thus, ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਐਸਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜੋ ਸਭਸੈ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੦॥ page 72 SGGSJ. Translation: unites all [bold]!

Let us talk about Baba Farid Ji, the most senior and revered Saint of SGGSJ who, when presented with a pair of scissors as a gift by one of his followers declined it on account it cuts and that he will accept in its place a "needle" that stitches together. Moral being - let us UNITE rather than DIVIDE.

Goodnight n Godbless

 

[Ishna]

I don't wish to argue, but discuss. I don't wish to cause offence to your ideals, but put forward what I think of them. Peace!

You have the right to say how SGGS should be read. However, if you want to call others to what you belive to be good for everybody, then it will be better for you to accept the common human understanding of a subject matter. Things are understood at their very basic level. For example: When you enter into a shop and see the notice, 'Cash sales only', you clearly get the message that you cannot use a credit card to buy things there.

So, I see SGGS as a human being should and we don't have any problem with the humanity reading Quran and understanding from the apparent. The Quran challenges humanity to find contradictions therein. The sign of truthfullness of a message is in its coherence. If SGGS condemns idol worshiping of the Hindus - then it must denounce it in all its forms. The Hindus believe, Krishna was an incarnation of God. Therefore, if SGGS is to condemn that, it must not approve or give the message that such and such persons are incarnations of God.

There was no animosity in my post. I apologise if it came across that way.

The thing about SGGSJ, is that it is very different to the Torah, the Bible, and the Quran. Where your holy scripture is a prose manual for personal and societal life complete with a legal system and explanations for things, the SGGSJ is a poetic love-song about realising our connection to the One Universal Creative Force - the Ik Onkar. It is full of metaphor, simile and analogy. It employs various poetic devices, such as calling Ik Onkar the Husband Lord and individuals as Soul-Brides. Ik Onkar has no gender, so it is not literally being called a husband, even though the Gurbani uses those words. Those words are used to express the longing and love between the Creation and the Creator.

So you see, Quran and SGGSJ are very different, and you will struggle to understand the Gurbani if you try to read them in the same way.