Interfaith Nanak Is The Guru - Nanak Is The Lord Himself - Page 865, SGGS

[chazSingh]

I don't believe God takes birth in anything or anyone in any form whatsoever. This is a wrong concept of God and downdrades Him - perhaps the very opposite of what one may intend. I understand, this is what you believe eventhough SGGS forbids that or a form of it in another place (please see page 1136. Pasting a whole page as may be required will take too much space) - thus contradictory in my humble opinion.

Moreover, I disagree with such notion on the rational basis too (I know a Sikhi is not supposed to be a rational being). It is my understanding on the basis of a statement from Guru Nanak ji that intellect is a drunken elephant and produces utter lies (please see page 351 of SGGS). I am (kind of ) using a Harvard system of referencing.

I don't intend to disrespect your beliefs or Gurus. Peace!

so if you became fully aware of God (in whatever form that may be)...and it was described as a birth....would that be downgrading God?

i would think that would be the most amazing thing...to become aware of your creator...

and then rather than what most people are happy and content with....just 'believing' in God...
you would actually 'know' Him..

This is why i love Sikhi..it tells me how i can become aware of God now...in this moment...rather than spending my life just believing in His existence..

God bless

 

[Shaheen]

Someone who can feel like God is not the true God. Someone who becomes God incarnate, ceases to exist as a creation. Neither of which is possible for any of the creation. Othewise, there is no uniqueness of the Creator.

Now, let us describe God in a positive manner (rather than using what is terms as 'negative theology'). God is as God has described Himself through His messengers and prophets. There is no way of knowing God (for certain) unless God chooses to reveal information about Himself.

The Muslims (the religion of the first man Adam - on whom be peace) know about Allah as much as Allah has described Himself through Quran and statements of His last Messenger Muhammad (on whom be peace). Such knowledge of the unseen is authorised by God/Allah. God is not known for certain through speculation (ie through philosophy) or Pantheism (ie the creator dewells in each creation).

 

[chazSingh]

Someone who can feel like God is not the true God. Someone who becomes God incarnate, ceases to exist as a creation. Neither of which is possible for any of the creation. Othewise, there is no uniqueness of the Creator.

Now, let us describe God in a positive manner (rather than using what is terms as 'negative theology'). God is as God has described Himself through His messengers and prophets. There is no way of knowing God (for certain) unless God chooses to reveal information about Himself.

The Muslims (the religion of the first man Adam - on whom be peace) know about Allah as much as Allah has described Himself through Quran and statements of His last Messenger Muhammad (on whom be peace). Such knowledge of the unseen is authorised by God/Allah. God is not known for certain through speculation (ie through philosophy) or Pantheism (ie the creator dewells in each creation).

and you are free to have such thought and belief..

the uniqueness of the creator is always there...just because i took a dive in the calm waters of the Caribbean doesn't mean i can comprehend the whole ocean

me on the other hand, i'm happy to be experiencing my Waheguru within me whilst i'm alive and taking these precious breaths, the Sea (the One) exists within us all....and beyond......
whats to worry about...am i going to heaven....or going to Hell? what will happen to me...what if it's all a lie? none of this matters now....i don't want any of it...heaven or hell....because i know what i was seeking is right here forever with me...

God Bless

 

[Original]

Someone who can feel like God is not the true God. Someone who becomes God incarnate, ceases to exist as a creation. Neither of which is possible for any of the creation. Othewise, there is no uniqueness of the Creator.

Now, let us describe God in a positive manner (rather than using what is terms as 'negative theology'). God is as God has described Himself through His messengers and prophets. There is no way of knowing God (for certain) unless God chooses to reveal information about Himself.

The Muslims (the religion of the first man Adam - on whom be peace) know about Allah as much as Allah has described Himself through Quran and statements of His last Messenger Muhammad (on whom be peace). Such knowledge of the unseen is authorised by God/Allah. God is not known for certain through speculation (ie through philosophy) or Pantheism (ie the creator dewells in each creation).

Sir

There isn't much to add coz brother H has summed it up beautifully, quote, "I have no wish to exclude anyone, nor do I have any power to do so, if you wish to debate that oranges are apples, I wish you well in your journey"....too good ! Just goes to show that true god may never be found true human can be....and that's the nuts n bolts of Sikhi my friend.

Okay, let's be a little philosophical to keep you glued to the wheel of wisdom, in that, religious knowledge does not seem to be a type of our ordinary empirical knowledge, which we can examine n evaluate like the rest of the primordial soup. Claims about plant life out in the universe, cures for cancer, or anything else dealing with events within the world of our experience, can be discussed and examined by certain standards that we call scientific. But the merits of various reported data of religious matrix can only be discussed and examined in terms of certain beliefs [Sikh] faith and the religious experience in itself, notwithstanding, that these reported religious truths have no objective basis and their classification and categorisation and the rest are up for grabs, coz it aren't. Kindly, dig deep for ontological and theological truths, in particular, Immanuel Kant's conclusion.

Goodnight n Godbless

PS - Question ? Is your son writing up a dissertation on Sikhi or what ? Some ground work on, eh !

 

[Shaheen]

Okay, let's be a little philosophical to keep you glued to the wheel of wisdom, in that, religious knowledge does not seem to be a type of our ordinary empirical knowledge, which we can examine n evaluate like the rest of the primordial soup.

Human beings cannot agree on many things, though the opposing sides may argue that others are unable to see Apples as Apples. What is obvious to you many not be so for me. It is not a number game. But, look at the religious and ethnic make up of India. People are diverse (just like the rest of the planet) in various aspects of life. Even my children are not totally like me. We are individuals after all.

I agree that the religious knowledge are not like the physical sciences whereby a certain hypothesis is tested to confirm or eliminate. Nevertheless, we can reasonably reach a valid conclusion based on our experience with Gods' creation and its complexity and integrity. The greatness of a designer is known through his/her designed product. The inventors are known through their inventions. It does not mean that inventors or designers are part of the designed products. Likewise, Allah's (yes, the name appears in SGGS) greatness can be witnessed right in front of our faculties (not just eyes), behind us in the history of humanity and in His divine book the Quran.

The Quran encourages the humanity to look at the natural sciences to find the evidence of design, intelligence and planning. God gives life after we die just like dead ground comes alive after rain. For us to see the truth, we have to use our senses. Othewise, we may be committed to call Apples as Oranges or vice versa.

 

[JourneyOflife]

Saying something to someone, then denying it as literal when the apparent is literal - is not something the human civilisation would accept as a valid way of conducting our business, be it spiritual or physical.

With all due respect, in which position are you to be able to make such an authoritative statement when it has worked for ~500 years?

We have to say what we mean - othewise, how can one be taken seriously (if one wants to be taken seriously)?

I think the Guru said exactly what the Guru wanted to say. The difference between you and I is you are choosing to isolate statements and study them as if they were made in a vacuum. I actually understand the significance of context and read the entire Shabad, and then link the Shabad as a whole with the rest of SGGS Ji.

That is not say that no metaphor should be present in a serious discussion or book. However, things have their limits and places. (The gods, the Siddhas, the angels, the heavenly singers, the silent sages and the devotees sing Your countless Glorious Praises.) - You should see that no metaphor was presented here, just as in the following:

''My mind has become sad and depressed; how can I see God, the Great Giver? My Friend and Companion is the Dear Lord, the Guru, the Architect of Destiny. The One Lord, the Architect of Destiny, is the Master of the Goddess of Wealth; how can I, in my sadness, meet You?'' (SGGS p247)

Please tell me as to what is metaphoric about the 'Goddess of Wealth'? Such association of partners with God is contradictory to the claim (in the same sentence) of worshipping one true Lord.

This is just you putting your fingers in your ears and refusing acknowledge the existence of context.

Following your own logic, what are we to do when we come across statements like the following in the Koran?

"[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip." (8:12)

"O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous." (9:123).

And many many more: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

Surely the Koran is calling on Muslims to go out and kill unbelievers because, you know, context doesn't matter at all

Another thing that you may find useful is looking up the meaning of the original Gurmukhi word instead of always relying on the English translation. You've been quite fixated on the "The gods, the Siddhas, the angels, the heavenly singers, the silent sages and the devotees sing Your countless Glorious Praises" line, so I went out and actually checked the original Gurmukhi. Here it is:

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=249&english=t&id=10866

The word which is translated as "gods" is ਸੁਰ (transliteration: "sur") ... Then I went and checked the Mahan Kosh, the most authoritative dictionary on Sikhism, to see what the meaning of the word actually is. http://www.scribd.com/doc/149687252/Mahan-Kosh-Vol-1-Kahan-Singh-Nabha-English-Translation

According to the Mahan Kosh, ਸੁਰ can have a few different meanings. "a convulsive stomach ache", "a thorn, enemy", "a trident, a javelin, a spear", "the sun", "spiritual enlightenment, spiritual insight", some respiration exercise in yoga, "a scholar, a learned man", "courage, bravery", "a pig, a swine", "a trumpet, a bugle", " a tribe of Pathans of Lodhi dynasty", "a congregation for marriage", "red colour", "a wall for protection of the city, a rampart".

Which one of those meanings actually means "gods" as you are trying to imply?

This word, ਸੁਰ, is also used in the 8th Pauri of Japji Sahib, in which it is translated to mean "the heroic warriors" by the same translator you are using above. Remind me again why context, making sure we look at the original Gurmukhi and cross-checking with other parts of SGGS don't matter.

 

[Shaheen]

Journeyfor life: I don't deny the need to understand the context of a statement. What you have quoted from the Quran has its context. You have presented a linguistic analysis of the word 'sur'. Well and good. As this thead is whether God is one, please tell me (according to your understanding) taking the whole SGGS into consideration:

Does SGGS preach one God only or does it recognise the validity of gods other than the One?

I am familiar with a few Sanskrit words (being Bengali myself). Please let me know as to which word would appear in SGGS for god/gods.

 

[JourneyOflife]

Please quote me so I can know I have something to reply to.

What you have quoted from the Quran has its context.

So you mean to say reading the statement by itself is inappropriate? That it will not convey its true meaning? That some background knowledge and linking of concepts is actually required?

Does SGGS preach one God only or does it recognise the validity of gods other than the One?

What is a "god"?

 

[Shaheen]

So you mean to say reading the statement by itself is inappropriate? That it will not convey its true meaning? That some background knowledge and linking of concepts is actually required?

Reading a statement by itself my be appropriate depending on the message. You go to a shop, the notice says, 'Cash tranactions only'. You know what it means, no background checking or analysis is needed.

What is god?

God the creator and sustainer of the worlds and there is none beside Him. What is god according to SGGS?

 

[chazSingh]

Human beings cannot agree on many things, though the opposing sides may argue that others are unable to see Apples as Apples. What is obvious to you many not be so for me. It is not a number game. But, look at the religious and ethnic make up of India. People are diverse (just like the rest of the planet) in various aspects of life. Even my children are not totally like me. We are individuals after all.

I agree that the religious knowledge are not like the physical sciences whereby a certain hypothesis is tested to confirm or eliminate. Nevertheless, we can reasonably reach a valid conclusion based on our experience with Gods' creation and its complexity and integrity. The greatness of a designer is known through his/her designed product. The inventors are known through their inventions. It does not mean that inventors or designers are part of the designed products. Likewise, Allah's (yes, the name appears in SGGS) greatness can be witnessed right in front of our faculties (not just eyes), behind us in the history of humanity and in His divine book the Quran.

The Quran encourages the humanity to look at the natural sciences to find the evidence of design, intelligence and planning. God gives life after we die just like dead ground comes alive after rain. For us to see the truth, we have to use our senses. Othewise, we may be committed to call Apples as Oranges or vice versa.

I agree with pretty much everything you say with regards to learning about the creator through it's creation...

But SGGS Ji goes way beyond that...it tells us 'How we can come to know and fully experience the invisible behind the visible'...something that the physical senses cannot fathom....and we can start doing it now...in the present moment

how exciting is that? to know the absolute truth...to sit down and Dine with the painter behind the painting...

there is no reason for God to give us life after we die...because we are not the Body...the body will go back into nature...we however...never die..because we are like the drop from the ocean....the drop not being the ocean, and the ocean not the drop...but both still being water... .. again by following SGGS Ji, this can be proved through first hand experience hence removing the fear of death whilst we are still alive in the body...

many people of different backgrounds and faiths are starting to realize this and experience it first hand...it's happening all over the world.

 

[Ishna]

1) On the issue of intellect being like a drunken elephant. We have disagreed on the understanding. I still understand the message in its most apparent (like a Muslim) and you seem to think, it talks about ego. My understanding that a Sikh person is not supposed to use his intellect is based on this message. You are free to disagree and if the Sikh people are supposed to use their intellect (as a human being is supposed to), that is well and good.

You said something very relevant there. You said "I still understand the message in its most apparent (like a Muslim)". And therein lies the problem. You are trying to understand art, for example, by applying what you've learned from mathematics. It might get you some of the way (there is a lot of geometry to art, after all) but you won't be able to fathom art itself until you switch modes of thinking.

Here's a shabad that references the Sikhs discerning intellect:

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥
Salok mėhlā 3.
Shalok, Third Mehl:

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੁਧਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
Gurmukẖ gi▫ān bibek buḏẖ ho▫e.
The Gurmukh is blessed with spiritual wisdom and a discerning intellect.

ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਹਾਰੁ ਪਰੋਇ ॥
Har guṇ gāvai hirḏai hār paro▫e.
He sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and weaves this garland into his heart.

ਪਵਿਤੁ ਪਾਵਨੁ ਪਰਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥
Paviṯ pāvan param bīcẖārī.
He becomes the purest of the pure, a being of supreme understanding.

ਜਿ ਓਸੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੀ ॥
Jė os milai ṯis pār uṯārī.
Whoever he meets, he saves and carries across.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
Anṯar har nām bāsnā samāṇī.
The fragrance of the Lord's Name permeates his being deep within.

ਹਰਿ ਦਰਿ ਸੋਭਾ ਮਹਾ ਉਤਮ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
Har ḏar sobẖā mahā uṯam baṇī.
He is honored in the Court of the Lord, and his speech is the most sublime.

ਜਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਣੈ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਾਲੁ ॥
Jė purakẖ suṇai so ho▫e nihāl.
Those who hear him are delighted.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਪਾਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਨੁ ਮਾਲੁ ॥੧॥
Nānak saṯgur mili▫ai pā▫i▫ā nām ḏẖan māl. ||1||
O Nanak, meeting the True Guru, one obtains the wealth and property of the Naam. ||1||​

I hope you are enjoying searching and browsing the pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

 

[Ishna]

God the creator and sustainer of the worlds and there is none beside Him. What is god according to SGGS?

This is answered one page 1 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, in the opening statement known as the Mool Mantar. It is a small statement full of words of greater depth. Members here have given their extrapolation of them previously - you can search for them if interested. This is one simple translation, as provided at srigranth.org

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~​

Waheguru!

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

I am a new member and Muslim. I am not here to attack your religion. I got curious about your religion after being questioned by my 16 year old son on the nature of God according to the Sikh faith.

Here I am as a result of that query from my son! I have read this thread and have got mixed messages about God both from the members and from your scripture. For example: In page 865 of your holy book, it is stated 'Nanak is the Guru - Nanak is the Lord Himself'.

Now, the question a human being like me would ask: How is Guru Nanak not god, when your book explicitly says so here and some other places? I am not talking about the spiritual nearness to God. I am talking about the God Himself (being Guru Nanak?).

Answer is: Your question is incomplete, misguiding in nature and seems an attempt to confuse as every sikh is not literate with gurbani to answer it.

The first line of Sri Guru granth sahib ji is the Mool mantar and it defines qualities of God. God never takes birth but he is the creature of universe.

As per Gurbani, the Lord Akal purakh waheguru first created the atmosphere(Air) and then from Air he created the water (H2O). After this he created the universe and then...finally he merged himself in every part of it.

So we the Sikhs do not search him anywhere, he is omnipresnt and is always with us not like Muslims who climb on the seventh floor to call his God Allah at sky.
y god is always with me

 

[Shaheen]

God never takes birth but he is the creature of universe.

God is the 'creature' of the universe?

God never takes birth? How about:

The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth. First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad. (SGGS p1407)

 

[Harry Haller]

I agree completely, and another thing, why are the blind so discriminated against in the SGGS?

ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥

अंधुलै नामु विसारिआ मनमुखि अंध गुबारु ॥

Anḏẖulai nām visāri▫ā manmukẖ anḏẖ gubār.

The blind have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness (P19 SGGS)

just one of many references against the blind, surely its hard enough being blind, without being denied salvation!

 

[Ishna]

Meanwhile, by body is starving and I'm running around naked.

ਸਚੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਸਚੁ ਪੈਨਣਾ ਸਚੁ ਟੇਕ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥
सचु खाणा सचु पैनणा सचु टेक हरि नाउ ॥
Sacẖ kẖāṇā sacẖ painṇā sacẖ tek har nā▫o.
Let Truth be your food, and let Truth be your clothes; let your True Support be the Name of the Lord.

 

[Original]

I agree completely, and another thing, why are the blind so discriminated against in the SGGS?

ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥

अंधुलै नामु विसारिआ मनमुखि अंध गुबारु ॥

Anḏẖulai nām visāri▫ā manmukẖ anḏẖ gubār.

The blind have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness (P19 SGGS)

just one of many references against the blind, surely its hard enough being blind, without being denied salvation!

Good morning H
Hope all is well at your end ! I'm delighted with the opportunity to converse and add here few verses to that effect.

The context within which Nanak uses blindness as a literary tool is one of spiritual genre and not physical disability. Satire is historically a very conservative form [poetically speaking] everyone is expected to understand the framework within which it is constructed.The ability to take on the conceptual world-view of a particular theoretical standpoint was at the heart of the composer's message.The perspectives' distinctive vocabularies and conceptual tools are intended to contribute to one's spiritual knowledge, application of which to new objects of enquiry is expected to yield spiritual dividends. And, as a result, will enable the adept to turn to the Guru, that is, Gurmukh from a mere Manmukh.

Moving away from it all H, what Baba Nanak was saying then [p19 above] is pretty much evident today. For example, take the affluent humanity, top-notch car drivers, high flyers, Internet surfers and the throwaway buyers; in short all those with access to the fruits of the global economic bonanzas are devoid of spiritual heights, theirs is the poverty of the spirit. It is within this kind of framework Gur Ghar attempts to evoke the sleeping nature of humankind to spiritual heights.

 

[chazSingh]

God is the 'creature' of the universe?

God never takes birth? How about:

The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth. First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad. (SGGS p1407)

oh dear Shaheen,

if you understand the English language, and how beautiful poetry is, you will come to know that often language can be used in a very literal sense....whereas on other occasions words such as birth can describe so many very different and beautiful things...

if you cannot understand this then you will 'never' get to grips with Gurbani.

I would recommend a course in poetry...something we all were introduced to in school
http://www.poetryschool.com/courses-workshops/


and maybe even watch some nature programs, where you will get documentary commentators using language in very open and creative ways to describe the wonders and almost indescribable things they see in nature.

I could say that "A new Shaheen is born everyday"....does that me you take physical birth everyday?
maybe it could mean, that physically your body is repairing during sleep, and you are made up of new cells and old ones have died...its a new you...

or it could mean that due to the experienced you went though physically and mentally the day before, today "A new Shaheen is born" intellectually and through awareness...

yesterday you were a bad person only interested in making money and indulging in Lust..then one day you wake up and realize its not the path for you...something inside you is pulling you towards a better path....a new Shaheen is Born

open your mind good friend..

reading and contemplating the rest of SGGS ji may give you some insight into what is being described in your above quote.

God cannot be born in the physical sense as He is already everywhere....lol
what can be born is the awareness that God is within you...the communion with God in you...to finally understand what You are...and What God....and in that process becoming one...


Good luck

 

[chazSingh]

Good morning H
Hope all is well at your end ! I'm delighted with the opportunity to converse and add here few verses to that effect.

The context within which Nanak uses blindness as a literary tool is one of spiritual genre and not physical disability. Satire is historically a very conservative form [poetically speaking] everyone is expected to understand the framework within which it is constructed.The ability to take on the conceptual world-view of a particular theoretical standpoint was at the heart of the composer's message.The perspectives' distinctive vocabularies and conceptual tools are intended to contribute to one's spiritual knowledge, application of which to new objects of enquiry is expected to yield spiritual dividends. And, as a result, will enable the adept to turn to the Guru, that is, Gurmukh from a mere Manmukh.

Moving away from it all H, what Baba Nanak was saying then [p19 above] is pretty much evident today. For example, take the affluent humanity, top-notch car drivers, high flyers, Internet surfers and the throwaway buyers; in short all those with access to the fruits of the global economic bonanzas are devoid of spiritual heights, theirs is the poverty of the spirit. It is within this kind of framework Gur Ghar attempts to evoke the sleeping nature of humankind to spiritual heights.

great post ji...very deep and profound and True

but i think Harry ji was highlighting Shaheen's inability to see how the beauty of language can be used in many different ways...

i.e. Blind not always literally meaning the physically blind.....and previously, birth not always meaning a baby making acquaintance with the outside world after 9 months of having its feet up and relaxing within the comforts provided by the mother...

Thankfully, even if we get the meaning wrong (which Shaheen has proved can easily happen), Sikhi Gives us a way to prove to ourselves through first hand experience what is true and what isn't...thank God for that

God Bless JI

 

[chazSingh]

I agree completely, and another thing, why are the blind so discriminated against in the SGGS?

ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥

अंधुलै नामु विसारिआ मनमुखि अंध गुबारु ॥

Anḏẖulai nām visāri▫ā manmukẖ anḏẖ gubār.

The blind have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness (P19 SGGS)

just one of many references against the blind, surely its hard enough being blind, without being denied salvation!

missed your sense of humor