Nanak Is The Guru, Nanak Is The Lord Himself

[Sikh80]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

I am working on this article but it shall take lot of time, hence I have posted just few lines from that article that is under process.


If you are not comfortable with my style of writing, kindly take your time in replying.I can always converse with you.

Regards once again Veer ji.
'

 

[Sikh80]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Respected pk 70 ji,

Very many Thanks for the kind words. I had some jobs to be attended to hence could not have your blessed company.

Warm Regards.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Only Akal Purakh can take anyone out. If you are refering to Guts then please have some guts and budh to reply to our last few queries to you.

p/s: BTW I am not ganging up on you.

When I metha thek to Guru ji (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) I dont see a difference between Akal Purakh and Guru ji - Eternal Shabad Guru.

Eka bani ek guru eko shabad vichar

Lets cool down.

Nobody is waving fingers or ganging up.

I am first and foremost a Sikh Historian who has studied patetrns and behavior within Sikhism.

This concept of thinking Guru's are God is not new and emerges from time to time and is a hangover of our Hindu past. At present Sikhism is awash with Vashnavite leaning groups, eg AKJ, GNSSJ, Rarowalay, Namdhari's etc etc, although these groups would never admit it (but a study into their histories verifies this).

In the 18th and 19th Centuries Udasis and Nirmala's ran Sikh Shrines and the Guru's were portrayed as incarnations of Vishnu and Gods themselves. There was an attempt at reform in the early 20th Century vis a vis Uslee Nirankari and Singh Sabha Movement, but this seems to have come unstauch in the 80's to present.

My message is this. Please read Bani in context. I too can take one or two lines out and make out the meaning to be whatever I please, but I try not to. Read Bani in context. Do NOT dismember the Angs.

English translation is not perfect.

The crux of the issue is that what I have quoted above.

Now going back to the debate:

After reading the entire shabad as I have quoted above, the last line is:

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥
गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥
Gur Nānak Nānak har so­ė. ||4||7||9||
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

Now does Gur Nānak Nānak har so­ė. mean Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.?

Or is there something lost in translation? For me there is something lost in translation. For me Gur Nānak Nānak har so­ė. does not mean Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself . It is more like Guru Nanak "is that" or "all of the above", ie.e the qualities of a Gurmukh and the Gurmukh that is merged with God but not God himself?

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Dear Randeep ji,
Thanks for your posts. The thread has become slightly contentious. Regarding my initial doubt that is in post one , it stands to reason that I stick to the philosophy that God is one and the entire attributes of the God are summed up very nicely in The Mool Mantra and the philosphy of sikhism is reflected in Jap ji sahib.
We all have the right of interpreting the bani in a manner that it is in line with the entire sikh philosophy. You have answered my post but in a round about manner and and it would be kind of you if you could, in an explicit manner, opine if Guru nanak or for that matter Nanaks are 'waheguru'. Kindly remember if you answer is Yes, it would be against the sikhism as per that I have learnt and that is little.
Kindly reply briefly and in a pointed manner.
Regards.

Sorry I don't understand your question.


The word "Waheguru" is a term used for God, or ultimate teacher, but there is nothing stopping people using it for a teacher. Again this word must be viewed in context.​

 

[Sardara123]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Randip Ji,


I was just reading you on another thread: you said:

What you have stated is the 64 million dollar question. What constitutes a metaphor and what is to be taken literally.

A way of training ones mind into what is a metaphor in Bani are Bhai Gurdas's Vars eg:

Just as one has to tie pail`s neck while taking out water​

,
Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed​

Just as to get Kasturi from deer`s neck, deer is to be killed
Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed
To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken
Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up. ​

Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13​

Bhai Gurdas's Vars are called the key for a reason to Bani. They trains one's mind into the metaphor mindset.​

Here are my two cents about Bhai Gurdas Ji:

Randip Ji Bhai Gurdas Ji also tells:


Quote:
( Bhai Gurdas Ji is talking about God and Guru):

hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY gur prmySr eyko jwxY]
Quote:
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY dUjw Bwau n AwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Aaugx kIqy gux prvwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY mMdw iksY n AwK vKwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Awp Tgwey lokW BwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY praupkwr krY rMg mwxY]
lau bwlI drgwh ivc mwx inmwxwmwx inmwxY]
gur pUrw gur Sbd is\wxY ]õ]

I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who does not allow the sense of duality to enter in him.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who understands the evil done to him as good one.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who never speaks ill of anyone.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who is ready to suffer loss for the sake of others.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who enjoys doing altruistic activities.
Such a humble person understanding the Word of Guru, himself becomes the perfect Guru.
English Translations are provided for non Punjabi readers. Source: SikhiToTheMax


In the first line he conveys the message of both Guru and God are the same one.
In second line he confirms that -NO OTHER- so not different at all. There cant be 'TWO'.

SECOND LOVE IS NOT GOOD.
NO DUALTY.



We are supposed to love Guru. - ONE LOVE
We are taught to love God by Guru- ONE LOVE
If we are loving Lord God as a seperate Entity- THERE WE ARE LOVING 'TWO'.

WHEN THERE IS NO SECOND- HOW 'TWO' LOVES.


me moorakh- Sardara

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Randip Ji,


I was just reading you on another thread: you said:


Here are my two cents about Bhai Gurdas Ji:

Randip Ji Bhai Gurdas Ji also tells:


Quote:
( Bhai Gurdas Ji is talking about God and Guru):

hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY gur prmySr eyko jwxY]
Quote:
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY dUjw Bwau n AwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Aaugx kIqy gux prvwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY mMdw iksY n AwK vKwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Awp Tgwey lokW BwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY praupkwr krY rMg mwxY]
lau bwlI drgwh ivc mwx inmwxwmwx inmwxY]
gur pUrw gur Sbd is\wxY ]õ]

I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who does not allow the sense of duality to enter in him.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who understands the evil done to him as good one.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who never speaks ill of anyone.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who is ready to suffer loss for the sake of others.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who enjoys doing altruistic activities.
Such a humble person understanding the Word of Guru, himself becomes the perfect Guru.
English Translations are provided for non Punjabi readers. Source: SikhiToTheMax


In the first line he conveys the message of both Guru and God are the same one.
In second line he confirms that -NO OTHER- so not different at all. There cant be 'TWO'.

SECOND LOVE IS NOT GOOD.
NO DUALTY.



We are supposed to love Guru. - ONE LOVE
We are taught to love God by Guru- ONE LOVE
If we are loving Lord God as a seperate Entity- THERE WE ARE LOVING 'TWO'.

WHEN THERE IS NO SECOND- HOW 'TWO' LOVES.


me moorakh- Sardara

So you are saying the term Guru is being used to described a physical Guru or being used to describe God?

Also we need to see the tranlitration alongside with this english translation, because as been demonstrated earlier ("is that"), that English translation can be wrong or innacurate.

 

[Sardara123]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

So you are saying the term Guru is being used to described a physical Guru or being used to describe God?

Also we need to see the tranlitration alongside with this english translation, because as been demonstrated earlier ("is that"), that English translation can be wrong or innacurate.

If you are a 'SIKH'

I think that you should know that there is nothing Physical- related to Sikhi Knowledge. Physical is Trigun. Not allowed to be loved as a seperate entity.

Your question about Physical Guru points towards your believe in PHYSICAL GURU EXISTANCE.

THNAKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU .

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

If you are a 'SIKH'.

My friend.

Keep the debate civil.

Don't make personal remarks like this again.

I think that you should know that there is nothing Physical- related to Sikhi Knowledge. Physical is Trigun. Not allowed to be loved as a seperate entity.

Your question about Physical Guru points towards your believe in PHYSICAL GURU EXISTANCE.

THNAKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU .

The problem I am seeing with your posts is that you are not following the entire debate. Try scrolling through the debate and picking up my views not just excerpts.

As stated earlier and another thread the word Sikh must be contextualised. My belief is simple, our physical Guru's were not God or God's. In Bani the word Guru can be used to describe a myriad of things. Read my other post and post in one thread. This is getting tiresome.

 

[Sardara123]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

We cant debate Guru Word. Sorry.

I just shared my understanding , that Guru Himself has given.

Sorry for making an attempt to Share.

ALL IS HAPPENING WITH HIS WILL.

No Sikh debate Guru Word. They SHARE.

RAL MIL KHAVO KHARCHO BHAEE, TOT NA AAVAY VADHADHO JAAEE.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

We cant debate Guru Word. Sorry.

I just shared my understanding , that Guru Himself has given.

Sorry for making an attempt to Share.

ALL IS HAPPENING WITH HIS WILL.

Ofcourse you can debate it.

People come to this site to learn and share, and we do this through civilised debate.

The word Guru is often confused by people and there are many people who think that by using the word Guru in Bani we are saying worship physical Guru's i.e. Guru Naka to Guru Gobind Singh ji, clearly not the Sikh mesage.

 

[Sardara123]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Me neech moorakh, DONT DEBATE on GURU SHABAD.

I listen to Guru and take His Word as 'IS', 'WAS' and 'WILL BE'.

Yes, I share and once in while when I see things mentioned against that Truth, I give reference from Gurbani and try to tell the truth.

It is upto the other party, if they want to listen or not- TO GURU SHABD.

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR DEBATES.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Me neech moorakh, DONT DEBATE on GURU SHABAD.

I listen to Guru and take His Word as 'IS', 'WAS' and 'WILL BE'.

Yes, I share and once in while when I see things mentioned against that Truth, I give reference from Gurbani and try to tell the truth.

It is upto the other party, if they want to listen or not- TO GURU SHABD.

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR DEBATES.

If you do not debate Guru Shabad, then what is the point of you posting here?

 

[Sardara123]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Sharing

 

[Sardara123]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Sukhmani Sahib Ji:

"Jin Prabh Jaata su sobhavant"
Those who know the Lord are Glorious.


See you all in a few months

be

he he:}{}{}: me too

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Sharing

if you come to share then be prepared to be challenged in what you share.

 

[Sardara123]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

If you do not debate Guru Shabad, then what is the point of you posting here?

I said

sharing

You said

if you come to share then be prepared to be challenged in what you share.

:}{}{}:Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou:}{}{}:

Good luck with your challanges, debates and ALL.

 

[Sardara123]

Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.

WJKK
WJKF

"Jot Roop HAR Aap Guru Nanak Kahayio"
SGGS, Ang (1408)

"The Lord Almighty caused Himself to be called as Guru Nanak"

Veer, I hope this will clear ur doubt.

Gurfatehh

Thankyou.
Guru Shabad is ALL LOVE- ULTIMATE TRUTH.

 

[Sikh80]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

1.If Nanaks are God HIMSELF/THEMSELVESas stated [1] ;

And


2.If Lord Krishna is God HIMSELF as stated in Geeta;

Then

3.On a wider canvas Sikhism is only aberration of Hinduism [2].


And it Leads to


That Sikhism as good as Hinduism [3]


Then

4.Sikhs are Keshdhari Hindus [4].

I do not hold this view that Sikh Gurus are God [5].

Further



5.If we say that NANAKs are GOD


Then


Guru Gobind ji’s Shabad given below:


Mein hoon param Purukh ko dasa……… Sab narak kund…..

Would become superfluous. [6]

[and it cannot be, No part of ’s shabad uttered by Guru ji can be/ is redundant or superfluous. Hence the statement made at Sl.1 is not correct.]

This is the way I think.Please let me know as to what do you think Randip ji.I would stand corrected if I have omitted something.

Regards







[1] As stated by many here in the posts ‘Guru and God no difference’ and ‘Guru nanak is the Guru and the Lord’. I have taken the assumption that Nanaks are God based on the conclusions of other two threads where the moderator of the site has also confirmed, being a moderator her words weigh heavier than others.]


[2] Where the author of the script calls himself God. However it is also not correct as Gurus have criticized the Vedas and the rituals of Hindus as meaning less and Vedas as only part of ‘Maya’.]


[3] This also cannot be the case as Guru Sahibaan always rejected Hinduism.

[4] Why make a big deal against Khushwant Singh and also about the views of Indian Government also contained and confirmed in Indian constitution. Hence this cannot be the case.


[5] They might have had some very specific and very limited functions i.e. to spread the message thru. Bani that is enshrined and contained in Granth sahib. And in that context they might have stated them to be representative/messengers or even Avtars of God as contained in Swaiye as is sung by Bhatts, the poets.



[6] There is no entry of Guru Gobind singh ji ,Dasam Patshahi, in Granth sahib.
It just confirms that Gurus never wanted to be called as Gods for any reason, whatsoever, including namrata/nimrata/humility. We cannot establish after 500+ years as to whether it was in humility or otherwise.
The shabad of Guru Gobind Sahib ji would be rendered as redundant. As it cannot be, it proves to any mind with a little analytical power to admit that GURUs never wanted them to be called as God. May be they were or they were not is besides the point of discussion. Let it be left to the Sikh philosophy. I may think that they were God ,but it is very private and not an opinion that I should advertise on a forum. Let us not discuss this topic unless the Moderators are interested due to some other justifiable reasons and I may kindly be excused for anything that might have offended some of you.
__________________
~~~**Satnaam sri WaheGuru**~~~

 

[Sikh80]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Quoted below is an opinion of a very Senior member Of SPN reg; the Mool Mantra and its significance.

It is taken from other thread.

*********************************************************

Sikh 80 ji

In Mool Mantra you have just quoted above, Guru Sahib has given a few qualities of our Creator. No other one has all those qualities. Of course, that is what Sikhism is known about its concept of God. Repeatedly this concept of God is expressed in Guru Granth Sahib ji. To go against this concept of God is to go against basic principle of Sikhism.
Rememer, Mool Mantra is also answering a lot of questions about Almighty/Waheguru. __________________
HAR bisrat sda khuari Mehla 5
pk70
*******************************************************

 

[Sikh80]

Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Vaar 1 Pauri 23 Coming of the Guru​

ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ ।
The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.

*********************************************************

It is also self-explanatory that GOD sent the GURU.
These are two entities at this point .May be Guru ji merged with the lord.It has been stated by many in this thread.

Conclusion: One has to read the scripture 'as whole' and not in part if one has to assign some meaning to some lines that convey more than one meaning as in the present case.

Literal translation without context may not be appropriate.

I have participated in the discussion to the extent possible and quoted as per the resources available.


Bhul Chuk Mauf