Politics Neo Nazis Win Seats To Represent Britain In Europe

[dalsingh]

Tony ji

OK so if both sides are violent which one is in the wrong. there are groups of extremist in every society even here on this forum there are those who hold the same views as the BNP, they are against interacial marriages, they believe in the caste system,

Yes and the saner elements amongst us do not condone or try to justify this. Instead we condemn it. Whereas, going by your posts, you plainly seem to symphathise with the BNP. Those Sikhs who are doing what you mentioned are plain {censored}s. I will say that openly. How do you justify your stance on the BNP, they would ship your wife out given the chance. Don't defend the indefensible.

please explain why my wife is viewed by some Amritdhari's as an outcast, why they stare and frown at us when where in town together, why do they view her as a less sikh than other Sikh ladies, plain and simple racism, She sees all as one race no difference between colour, I'd say that makes her a good Sikh.

I get your point but I would also say that having an active involvement in preserving Sikhism is also essential to be a good Sikh. I don't know why these people look down on your wife? Is it a caste issue? Is it because she has married to someone they perceive to be a nonSikh?

Regarding seeing all as one race is not as simple as you are making out. What about war situations for instance. There are plenty of references in extant rehat namas of the past that say things like "Khalsa must slays Khans" or "Khalsas slay Turks", so whilst Sikhism does believe in the equality of human beings let us not project the modern, liberal interpretation on that. We are a distinct community with our own borders so to speak, this is not a racial thing in my eyes but loosely based on beliefs.

Explain the replies on the topics of interacial marriages, on inter caste marriages,

Whether we like it or not, an edict has been given that Sikhs must marry Sikhs in Gurdwaras. Previously Sikhs had been very liberal in this matter and what was happening was other communities were exploting that to convert people of Sikh backgrounds through marriage. Regarding caste between Sikhs, most people here know my views on that. I wont repeat but this is a practice that needs to attacked vigorously by Sikhs. I see progress around me all the time through cross caste marriages, many in my family.

explain why every Sikh I've met refers to people by the colour of their skin, and tell me whos better than who. and Whats the difference between them and the BNP.

That is rubbish on the part of the Sikhs but hell, how you can compare that to the organised hatred pushed by the BNP types?

Its no good trying to sort out someone elses house till your own is in order. Sorry but its all a form of racism/ secterianism. Its all totally against whats written in the Guru Granth Sahib and not what the 10 Gurus practiced and taught us. Look forward to your reply

You are right but sadly Brits seem to be going backwards in this now. I for one hope that Sikhs are moving in the right direction, recent clashes within Panjabi communities are actually a positive development in my eyes as they indicate a new found confidence by those long oppressed. Let the levelling commence. It was our destiny anyway.

 

[tony]

Dalsingh ji
I have defended neither side nor will I sympothise with either, both are wrong, both is anti Sikh, Regarding the inter-racial/ inter-caste marriage topics i believe its the majority that are against. As to your responce to other Sikhs looking down on my wife as a possible caste issue, possibly your right but its anti Sikh, marrying someone who is percieved as non Sikh is judging someone by the colour of their skin, Racism I believe and when was Sikhi a nationality I thought it was a religion. Regarding seeing all as one race not being simple because of war situations if we were all one race then where will wars come from. And who wrote Sikhs must slay Khans/ turks was this the writing of the Guru ji, It was my believe that the Sikhs where defending themselves as a last resort not attacking at will. Who gave the edict that Sikhs must marry in the Gudwaras, the Guru jis, If you put up boarders you not only keep others out you contain your believes, are you frighten the religion isnt strong enough to carry on in the big wide world. All have been sad arguments to justify racisn/ secterianism on one side whilst condeming it on another, your as (not you personally) bad as each other. The fight is for human freedom, if you want to condem one side then condem all sides that practice any form of Racism/ secterianism, True Sikh values as demonstrated by the Gurus who martyred their lives for it. the right to be what you want. I give no support for either side unlike yourself.
Tony

 

[Liberal_canadian]

Thats Democracy, they won fair and square and they deserve a seat according to our democratic principles. Democracy is great until someone you dont like wins! example HAMAS, Iran, etc. This is in Europe and im very surprised the Europeans are still so far behind North America, in the USA if a Neo Nazi was to be elected he would not last two months before he was killed by the people.

 

[dalsingh]

Dalsingh ji

I have defended neither side nor will I sympothise with either, both are wrong, both is anti Sikh,

Tony, that is not the impression I got from reading your earlier posts. In them you seemed to excuse BNP support citing Muslims demands as the cause. You seem to be implying the tired old argument of "our culture is being destroyed."

On thing you have to admit is that the average working class Brit doesn't traditionally pursue higher education and many aspects of British culture are dying through no fault of immigrants. Look at Morris Dancing as an example. This is the English national dance and English people themselves are indifferent to its survival. The same with language/literature, seeing as the average youth doesn't seem to want to read these days. But this is not unique to the British alas.

Regarding the inter-racial/ inter-caste marriage topics i believe its the majority that are against.

I have a skewed perspective on this. Globally, including India, many of my family have had intercaste marriages. Now that I think about it, I would say it is quite a high proportion. I don't know if this is a norm today or very exceptional.

marrying someone who is percieved as non Sikh is judging someone by the colour of their skin, Racism I believe and when was Sikhi a nationality I thought it was a religion.

Sikhs are also a quom remember......this translates as a nation. (anyone have a better translation?)

Regarding seeing all as one race not being simple because of war situations if we were all one race then where will wars come from.

Resources, wealth, land etc. are all reasons for war not just race.

Who gave the edict that Sikhs must marry in the Gudwaras, the Guru jis, If you put up boarders you not only keep others out you contain your believes, are you frighten the religion isnt strong enough to carry on in the big wide world.

The Akal Takht, which makes it serious. Sikhs are strong enough inteh big wide world. We don't do too bad out here despite barriers.

The fight is for human freedom, if you want to condem one side then condem all sides that practice any form of Racism/ secterianism, True Sikh values as demonstrated by the Gurus who martyred their lives for it. the right to be what you want

.

Very true. I feel I have condemned both sides. Including the caste nonsense practiced by Sikhs. I think people can testify to that.

I give no support for either side unlike yourself.

Said the man with BNP supporting friends.

 

[tony]

Dalsingh ji
I think you should reread my posts, Ive havent agreed with the BNP policies, Ive stated the reason why the BNP are gaining support and have used your own views to show why. Nor do I think ive mentioned anything about our culture being destroyed, On the contrary I'm personly quite happy to accept new cultures otherwise I would have married white English ladies, not an eastern european or a Sikh indian lady. As for the average white working Brit not persuing higher education, I do believe that untill the 80's it was very hard for them me included to get into uni, much easier now, infact its that easy a 1/3 of uni places are taken by foriegn students, and if it wasnt for the average brit pursuing change in our education system then half the asian kids wouldnt be so educated. There are schools in Nottingham as with the rest of the UK where over half the children cant speak English but unlike other countries We dont throw them to one side we give them extra help, England has been at the front of persuing equality for all and because of this they are taken advantage of, the mass influx of foriegn workers in the last few years is resulting in the average brit losing his average job, so he votes for the party that offers the best for him, and if thats the BNP then its a sorry state, the top three parties are to busy looking after there foriegn image and have forgotten the average brit they have been to busy persuing the minority vote that theyve pushed the average white to look some where else, sad but true I'm not agree with the BNP or its policies just pointing out the reasons why there growing. Morris dancing is actually on the rise btw strange but true. So you agree with inter caste marriages but what about inter racial marriages not heard your view on that yet. Sikhs are a quom/ nation funny I thought it was a religion, I must have applied for a change of nationality in my sleep. This is obviously the reason why so many say I cant be Sikh because I'm not Indian. Religion of any kind has no nationality or it cant spread across the world , unless your after Hitlers dream of world domination, a superiour Indian race (BNP ideals as well ). The Akal takht like all governing bodies seeks to promote its own believes and in doing so doesnt always make the best decisions (not saying this one isnt ),
"Said the man with BNP supporting friends" is there some thing wrong with having friends that have different views to myself, I have Sikh friends, muslim friends, eastern europeans, labour voters, conservative voters, even lib dem voters as friends why should I exclude one who votes BNP, Sikhi promotes equality for all, it is by having all these different friends that you get a different perspective on live you get to understand why people are unhappy and and what can help to resolve situations before they become ugly, in this case the aversage white brit is complaining that he feels unfairly treated, just like the Asians did and are still doing, they see their country and their rights slowly being stripped from them and just like the Akal takht make rules to protect Sikhi, India makes laws to protect India, pakistan make laws and every other country makes laws to protect their own the Average White Brit wants laws to protect his people, their answer is the BNP, Very sad but untill the other parties start protecting their own country and stop worrying about how other countries perceive us then the BNP will grow, there is an alternative and thats stop making demands accept the rules of a country, learn to speak its language and muck in to make that country great, Rob it and the natives will fight back as did India.
Tony
Btw my friends who support the BNP are not racist just pro British, if they where racist then they wouldn't be my friends, Although I do have some very racist aquaintences but their barred from joining the BNP on the grounds of their colour, You have to listen to both sides before a fair compromise can be achieved and peace obtained. Whos taking sides

 

[dalsingh]

For those interested, here is a documentary showing the typical female supporters of the BNP, including the wives of prominent figures. Well worth a watch, found it quite funny at places......

BNP Wives

Tony I'll reply to your post soon. I realise that you may be able to help clear some things for me as you seem to understand the BNP psyche very well.

 

[tony]

Dalsingh ji Please dont forget to include your opion honest that is of inter racial marriages including Sikh ladies who marry white men or blacks and muslims for that matter.
Tony
And again you forget the panjabi custom of showing respect for someone when addressing them personally.

 

[dalsingh]

First thing, the honorific thing is not practiced much in my clan now. We have adopted a more informal mode of communication. Personally I prefer direct honest communication, the use (or not) of honorifics like "ji" do not bother me. I do not feel any less respected if it isn't used myself. Understand Tony ji? Besides, if you are English, why are you crying about being referred to in the usual way?

Regarding your question, I follow the Akal Takhat principles that Sikhs should marry Sikhs.....regardless of race. But this does not mean I support conversions of convenience...where someone converts without belief to be with someone.

I also acknowledge that for some people this is not possible, i.e. if someone converts to Sikhi after marriage but their partner doesn't. So some flexibiliy is sensible. Hope that answers your question.

Will get back with my questions soon.

 

[tony]

Dalsingh ji
We are going no where with this conversation, you are trying to prove the impossible, that I'm a racist. I support niether side, be racism, casteism or discrimination of any kind. I try to emphathise with all, that way you get a better understanding of whats needed to find a peaceful solution, calling each other and putting down someones point of view only incites them to more radical behaviour. I have read through your posts and have seen you view on catse system, no different to mine, however in a lot of your post you seem to have the view that the average brit has racist undertones, which is not the case. Britain does have a need to stem the flow of migrants, the country can not support any more at the moment, this does not make us the average brit racist. the BNP however is a racist party and alot of its supportors are, but they have played this down over the last 10 or so yrs and the policies they promote can be appealing to some or in the case of the north of England the majority, it is because of this majority that they can no longer be ignore, you have to listen like it or not, they now have a voice and calling them isnt going to make them change their views, you have to listen , understand what the average voter is looking for and then change can come about, good change I hope or like you have said theyll be shipping my wife off back home. Britain whether you agree or not is still one of the best countries in the world, if it wasnt why do so many still come here, what makes us one of the best, its because we're so accomodating, no other country has done so much in so few a years to cater for its migrant population, it has done its best for both legal and illegal immigrants, but there comes a time when you have to slow it down, you have to stop giving in to demands, It is almost impossible for a brit to get in to the US, Australia,Canada and even India, We get no special help in any Islamic country and have to abide by the laws of the land we are in, yet they come here and expect us to change our laws to suit them , is that fair, is that equallity. Ask yourself would they stop preaching Sikhism in a sikh school just because its got christian students because thats whats happened here, Religious education in this country was taken out of schools so as not to offend muslim students, a lady in liecester was taken to court because she had a collection of pigs in her window and the muslims found this offensive. Now companies are shipping in thousands of foriegn workers at a time of high unemployment, other EU citizens come here just for the NHS treatment, tell me whats fair about this.
I have taken the time to listen to all sides and can unerstand why the BNP are growing and the only solution I can see is to put a stop to any more migrants till the economy picks up again and to stop giving into demands for things that give the imigrants unfair rights, if we dont and just continue to carry on then they will grow, thats my answer. Now what do you think we should do to stop the growth of the BNP, To stop them from shipping my wife off and possible yourself and over half of my friends, please do give your answers as I'm more than willing to listen. Instead of trawling the internet for old footage of BNP,instead of insulting the average brit, why dont you try coming up with a solution, I'd make it quick we have a general election coming up with three major parties in shame.
Tony
Ps my request for a respectful reply when using my name is based on the fact that when you respond to some others on the forum you use it, however I did notice when reading your post that when your opions differs to someone or you dont think they are Sikh you dont. Your statement of "besides, if your are English, why are you crying about being referred to in the usual way", could be construde as being racist and certainly shows your lack of respect for the people you live amongst, and I might be English but I'm still a Sikh.

 

[tony]

One other thing Dalsingh ji, your answer to my question on inter racial marriages, You say you follow the Akal takhat principles, reguardless of race, I follow and abide by the laws of England, but it doesnt mean that I agree with them. the question was what do you think honestly of them. How do feel when you see a Sikh girl with a none Sikh boy.
Tony

 

[dalsingh]

Okay Tony ji

Cultural destruction:

Seeing as you seem be able to grasp the average BNP mind could you give your opinions on the below? Feel free to get some BNP supporting friends to comment on the site, if you like. Tell them not to refer to Sikhs (or anyone else!) as P*kis beforehand though.

One of the central planks of BNP policy is the protection of British identity, which they see as being under threat of destruction. What exactly is meant by this? From what I see this seems to be nonsense. Whilst it is true that some cultural practices seem to be on the decline:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/morris-dancing-facing-extinction-1226549.html

This is not at all the fault of immigrants but British people themselves who are indifferent or plain embarrassed by them. If we were ashamed of bhangra I guess it would go the same way too.


Education standards:


Dropping language/educational standards also seem to be highlighted and again, immigration blamed. Anyone who meets today's youth, regardless of ethnicity could tell you that literacy is waning. BNP types seem to conveniently ignore the fact that other factors such as the emergence of the Internet and alternative entertainment systems such as games consoles play their part in deteriorating educational abilities. Besides, their thinking also fails to address why certain ethnic groups do far better in education than their white counterparts in the UK.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=461

Recently, even previously failing ethnic groups (i.e. Bangladeshis) seem to be catching up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-418228/White-pupils-fall-GCSE-progress.html

Tony ji, you rightly pointed out that the British are to be commended for allowing such opportunities. But now please explain why, given the equal opportunity to access education working class white Britons have failed to improve their performance? What is the excuse? Are immigrants to be blamed again?

I sometimes think that it may be down to centuries old suppression between classes that makes working class Brits feel unworthy of education or it could simply be down to the fact that many feel all of the effort in school/college/university is too much hard work? I don’t know?

Another factor totally ignored is the fact that many white only working class schools, with no immigrant children perform abysmally themselves. My end point is that poor educational performance by whites cannot be attributed to immigrants. So the BNP are scapegoating.

That all being said, the use of the English language is still spreading across the globe unabatted.


Come ‘ere and take all the jobs.


This one rears its head frequently when the chips are down. The first thing I want to say is that often migrants do the jobs Brits are ill trained to do or just do not want to do.

Construction work, nursing, cleaning, doctors etc. etc. The real issue here is the poor standards of training given to people here compared to overseas in the construction industry and the lack of applicants for higher level jobs from amongst the indigenous population (i.e. lawyers, doctors etc.)

Globalisation also means that many organizations prefer jobs to be filled with multi ethnic people to reflect their global client bases. That being said, there is still a ceiling where the highest level jobs are filled by whites only in the city.

Sad thing is, when the country is doing well, things are quiet, when things go sour, as they have recently, again migrants are to blame. However, the reason we are in a recession is nothing to do with any migrants but the poor decisions made by white bankers. BNP types need to accept this.


Miscegenation

This is another pet hate of the BNP. Again what they are blinded to is the plain fact that it is British men who are at the forefront of inter-racial relationships. Whilst many other communities (rightly or wrongly) have fairly conservative views about inter-racial relationships, it is often the British man who sees no taboo in crossing these barriers. What will the BNP do about this? Let’s be brutally honest, most ethnic groups seem to have a preference to marry within their own (rightly or wrongly). It is usually the English man that sees this as nonsense. So is this not a matter of the norm cultural practices of the British being unacceptable to the BNP?


I ask again are the BNP essentially a whining group who are scapegoating migrants for issues that are caused by people who look just like them?

Besides, behind all the politics are we not talking about people who are holocaust deniers and plain white supremacists, many with sympathies to Hitler?

Lets discuss some of these issues without getting personal Tony ji.


PS - Regarding your last post. Sikhs being with nonSikhs is not unusual these days and I see it as their personal choice. But I reiterate that I support the view of the Akal Takhat in this area - that Sikhs should marry Sikhs.

 

[tony]

Dalsingh ji
I agree with you whole heartedly about the BNP that they make immigrants a scapegoat and the decline in British culture is our own fault Not that we had much of a culture. I am all for racial integration. I have put over the reasons why they are growing not my own perception of immigrants. what I am trying to say is that you cant call the average Brit racist or no more than any other ethnic group. Untill one accepts that there is an issue for what ever reason then no cure can be found, What is driving the average Brit to vote BNP is the current recession, resulting in a lack of work, their bread and butter, yet still british firms are importing workers to do jobs that they are more than skilled to do, at a cheaper rate. I also agree with you that the average Brit sees higher education as something for the upper class's, which is changing with more and more working families sending their kids of to Uni, they also dont get as much support in school as the ethnic minorities do, my childrens own school offers more support for them with something called EMAG, available to ethnic minorities only and offers extra help in reading maths and other core subjects and it is things like this that upsets white people, I'm all for any help given to any child as eductation is the key to their future and hopefully to a peaceful one.
I disagree about the poor training standards in England, I think we have the best in the world , its more laziness on the part of the English worker and a get the money and run mentallity. A lack of pride in their work which has creeped in over the 30 yrs or so,
the English spoken by the youth of today is down to immigrants they are mixing languages from different cultures prodominantly american gangster culture. but then thats what happens when cultures mix, new cultures form and its my hope that this mixing of different cultures helps to bring a better place to live.
Any way what are we going to do about it the BNP that is, its not going to go away, When i talk to my friend about the racist side of the BNP he says he's not into all that s***, he just wants to see Britain as a great nation again and to make sure he's got a job in the future, I have explained to him that there is an alternative to the BNP and its UKIP which I dont believe is racist, He said he will look into it as he doesnt want to see my wife shipped off or he wont get any more Dhal. So you see that by talking to them they can be changed, Its no good just callimg them ignorant and uneducated (he has a degree of some sorts) you have to talk.
Hopefully we can work on them together, show them the positive side to the ethnic minorities and show how all sides can help make Britain great again. A real United Kingdom thats fully integrated from all sides. (hopefully with Sikhi as its national religion, lol but you never know stranger things have happened)
May god bless you Dalsingh ji and sorry if I have offended you,
Tony

 

[dalsingh]

Thank you for being openly honest on these emotive issues Tony ji.

 

[tony]

Dalsingh ji
I will try to find answers as to your Questions, It might take some time as I dont have any really racist friends, Any that have turned out to be racist dont wish to associate with me due to my wife, not that they would be made welcome. I would like to ask you and others not to refer to the racists as the average white working Brit, as I consider myself to be one of these, as are my friends and none of us including the BNP voter are racist. My family and I have suffered abuse from both sides but still we like to think that its from a minority and that the majority accept us for what we are, GODS creation.
Tony
Ps Heard on the news last night that the leaders of the BNP may face prosicution over their membership policy, Like I said before let them speak and they will hang themselves.