Promoting JHATKA

[dalsingh]

I always thought that seeing those pictures in the Gurdwaray were part and parcel of a Sikh upbringing. Sanghera, I'm surprised you never saw them growing up.

Maybe that is why you are so sensitive about all this?

 

[dalsingh]

Sinister: actually i ran out of my stash this morning :{;o:..

What sort of stash would this be..........not indulging in the old bhang/sukha are we mate? lol

 

[pk70]

Javakan De Dill Chirhi Warge Na Banaye.( quote Vijaydeep Singh ji)


Vijaydeep Singh ji,
Though I enjoyed posts by you in the past, I am totally puzzled what are you trying to say here?
Are you saying “to become brave, or to fight a battle, one needs to learn do Jhatka?”
Should we convey this exceptional strategy to Military personnel to warn them what they are missing?
Or you are saying “ those who are trying to say that children must be kept in mind while posting all stuff on this site, are having “ chiri varge dil,” and” who enjoy those pictures of animal slaughtering get automatically “ magical push” to turn into sher dil?” Why did I witness these jatka doers displaying a jackal’s show while in conflict? A lot of stuff given and presented in Gurdawaras has no alignment with Gurbani teachings; taking it a base to call a legitimate inspiration for either to children or adults is questionable in context of Gurmatt. In Zafarnama Sahib defines valid reason of becoming armed, so don’t try to give new meanings to being “ Khalsa” First of all, issue was not “ jhatka, or dead or how to inspire kids to become warriors or to eate meat or not; actually issue was very simple” to keep children in mind while posting all kind of stuff on this site”.

When people speak in the context of love being a higher emotional state than the other emotions, I die a little inside. [/FONT]
You cannot learn to love without learning to hate! (vice-versa)( quote sinister ji)[/FONT]
Not exactly, if one only learns to love, he/she doesn’t even need to learn to hate. A friend of mine who is a Christian, once I confronted him to ignore those people totally who offended him openly instead of smiling again with them as they wish so. His reply hit me hard” Singh, I cannot hate, I just don’t know how to hate, Mom taught me otherwise” You may call him an alien but I understood the factor working in his behavior, he never learnt” hating” and unlike you say” he doesn’t need it to love” Every thing is not round.[/FONT]

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<OH, how convinient, a selective debate, you left out my second proof that Humane treatment exists on a gradient! (it was the punchline)...a retort should be a complete one...dont get sloppy on me.>>
is there something called humane rape?

get the point?

<<and now we are so off topic that the picture doesnt even matter to you anymore...my objective is completed! (If I am not mistaken I think you must be experiencing a change in desire?)

if violence is reality, non violence is also a reality.
now you're getting it...the state of violence cannot exist without non-violence and the sate of non-violence is meaningless without a state of violence. YING and the YANG>>


Sinister, though you tried hard, but getting under my skin is wee bit tougher than other members

world viewed with filtered glases is never same for two people, hence the debate will never be resolved.

yours to you, mine to me

 

[dalsingh]

<<I always thought that seeing those pictures in the Gurdwaray were part and parcel of a Sikh upbringing. Sanghera, I'm surprised you never saw them growing up.

Maybe that is why you are so sensitive about all this?>>

sikh upbringing ???

can you please define what is "sikh" upbringing?

i am not sure of many gurdawars in punjab have these pictures..

atleast the few i had been to never had those, i was always content in being with sangat, kirtan and meditating on naam rather than look at pictures.

Sikh art is a vehicle for transmitting history and ideals. Almost every gurdwara I have been to has that type of art.

You said you are not sure of how many Gurdwaras have such art in Panjab. From my recollection, a fair few. Also consider the fact that most of the art itself is created in Panjab itself. Kirpal Singh was a prominent artist whose art adorns the Sikh Museum attached to the Golden temple. Have a look at his work at this site.

Untitled Document


His son still carries on the artist tradition:

Jarnail Singh Artist, Original Paintings and portraits,



Most Sikhs I know grew up around such images. That is why I referred to them as part and parcel of growing up Sikh for many of us. The images can be pretty graphic but seems to do no harm.

This is just to remind us of what people had to go through for Sikhism to be here.

But I agree in pushing for some sort of warning for youngsters.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

I "GREW UP" on those pictures....as my mum led us in our DAILY ARDASS twice a day....
our Favourite kavita used to be....:AAraa ji lagda piayara..sees nu cheerdaah....(Bhai Mati Dass Ji being sawn alive in front of Guru teg bahdur Ji Sahib)
"Kesh smabhaal sikha..kesh smabhaal oyeh..lootteh gayeh laal tereh..looteh gayeh laaloyeh....(Bhai Taru SINGH being scalped alive )......dad would discuss daily these...how the SINGHANNIAH in Mir Manuus prison had parts of their babies put around their necks..how the babies were slaughtered by being thrown into the air and speared alive...How the 5 year old Sahibzadah Fateh Singh and the 7 year old Zorawar Singh were standing TALL in the wall being bricked up alive and refusing to convert...etc etc etc..and how the elder brothers Ajit Singh and Jhujaar Singh fought agaisnt the mughals armies...just 13 and 15 years old youngsters...not even asking for water !!! the sight of Guru teg bahadur Jis HEAD beign shown to the 9 year old CHILD..Gobind Rai..and Gobind rai hugging the bearer of it to his chest and saying Ranghreteh GURU KE BETTEH.....

ARDASS and our HISTORY came ALIVE !!! DAILY. I made SURE this same experience is being shared by ALL my Gurbani/history/punjabi classes....and the "children" attending are from 3 years onwards....How else can a 5 YEAR OLD "kiddie" UNDERSTAND WHY ZORAWAR SINGH did what he did in SIRHIND ?? Should I WAIT for them to "GROW UP"....and then only expose them to ZORAWAR SINGH ?? maybe Zorawar Singh did it all "wrong"..he should have 'converted"..waited until he was older..and then..."lived"....... to die another day ??" Oh YES i have heard some of my students saying that......Zorawar Singh should have "pretended to convert...to save his life..and THEN when older...change back to Sikhi,,,and FIGHT the Mughals !!!!

No wonder so many "sikhs" are converting...not knowing anything about SIKHI/History/ardass.... we wait for them to "grow up"....and by then its TOO LATE...they are not interested any more !!!

AM I a "fanatic".."cruel and shocking"..NO i dont think so...to me the DAILY ARDASS is as GRAPHIC as can be....the words tell a Story of FACT..and we must live with it....or "pretend" it just empty "words"...to be said by the GRANTHI..while we day dream about the fantastic langgar awaiting us downstairs.....eat and be Merry....and hope the Granthi finishes with the ...boring ardass fast....

Lots of people have "problems" with the pictures of the MODERN SHAHEEDS of 1984 and after....hanging on Gurdwara Walls..being paraded in Nagar kirtans.... to many even the GRAPHIC ARDASS is shocking/repulsive/cruel/...maybe we should CENSOR the wordings..and REMOVE all references to charkhhrraian te cherreh, band band kataeh..khoprian utarian..jiondeh sarreh gayeh....that sounds repulsive/shocking ??...NO JI..I dont subscribe to "shutting out...or burying my head in Liberal Sands....or keeping the "youngsters" shielded from our HISTORY/our TRADITIONS...

Any particular reason as to WHY..from 1469-1849....NOT a SINGLE "SIKH" has been indentified as having CONVERTED/lied/cut his/her hair etc to LIVE...rather than DIE for his/her FAITH. When each Sikh head was worth RS 80 ?? no sikh ever "saved" his head ??look at the same "SIKHS"....after the 1900's...and the Slide towards the DEPTHS..NOW ???? Even Children as young as 5 rather DIE than run away..as cowards..... BUT NOW..GROWN MEN and women.....are cutting hair..in droves..by the MILLIONS...are we "better...craftier...smarter...than all those who DIED then ?? Do we "know" something they DIDNT ?? Do our children know something Zorawar Singh didnt know way back in SIRHIND ?? are we better "parents" than Guru Gobind Singh ??...Hard hitting questions..these..highly embarrassing too....but I ask them DAILY and will continue to ask them of thsoe who come to me...for "ANSWERS"....Gyani ji..why doesnt my teenage daughter..not listen to me..why she wants to marry that muslim guy from pakistan....why my teenage son is so rebellious..wnats to smoke pot..and play in gangs...why my grandson doesnt want to do any homework but watch TV all day..etc etc

WE look like the same "SIKHS".....BUT...after the 1960's...and the Slide towards the DEPTHS..NOW accelerating????

There may be lots of different REASONS..sociological..economic..environment..etc etc etc..I know..but no one cna DENY that LOSING TOUCH with our PAST is also one contributing factor...and the FASTER we TOUCH BASE..as young as possible..the better it turns out (at least for me..my siblings..my students..as far as I know)

Warm regards to all

Gyani JS:yes:

 

[Sinister]

Sinister, though you tried hard, but getting under my skin is wee bit tougher than other members

world viewed with filtered glases is never same for two people, hence the debate will never be resolved.

yours to you, mine to me

Stick to your small witty posts Mr. Sanghera…that way you cant make mistakes:

Lemme go to your absurd levels of retort and turn them around

Were the people who were killed by the 10th guru killed inhumanely?
Are you willing to sit there in front of your computer screen and judge your Guru’s actions as inhumane?
Was Guru Gobind Singh Participating Inhumane actions when he was on the battle field?

Gimme a break…I smell hypocrisy (simply from the lack of consistency)

Killing is not inhumane (all the time)…if you believe it is, then you must also believe that guru’s were inhumane (or their sons were) or their actions were

THUS:
Humane Killing is not an oxy{censored} it’s a veridical paradox!

Hows that for penetrating skin?
im like a bad case of the Herpes...the more you rub me...the more uncomfortable you'll get.

 

[pk70]

ARDASS and our HISTORY came ALIVE !!! DAILY. I made SURE this same experience is being shared by ALL my Gurbani/history/punjabi classes....and the "children" attending are from 3 years onwards....How else can a 5 YEAR OLD "kiddie" UNDERSTAND WHY ZORAWAR SINGH did what he did in SIRHIND ?? Should I WAIT for them to "GROW UP"....and then only expose them to ZORAWAR SINGH ?? maybe Zorawar Singh did it all "wrong"..he should have 'converted"..waited until he was older..and then..."lived"....... to die another day ??" Oh YES i have heard some of my students saying that......Zorawar Singh should have "pretended to convert...to save his life..and THEN when older...change back to Sikhi,,,and FIGHT the Mughals !!!!

Respected Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,
What are you doing? What are you thinking? Are you trying to prove that those pictures, the songs and graphic contents in the ardaas, couldn’t work or did work? Both way you are dead wrong. If it worked then in the following statement of yours, you are contradicting.

“Any particular reason as to WHY..from 1469-1849....NOT a SINGLE "Sikh" has been indentified as having CONVERTED/lied/cut his/her hair etc to LIVE...rather than DIE for his/her FAITH.”
If it didn’t, then what is the use of it, or why it couldn’t convey the message? Answer is not in their( pictures and graphic words) being there but numerous events, changes and different kind of agendas( as you have admitted slightly) played well here in this context. I am pretty much sure, Guru Gobind Singh ji’s sons were not raised on display of such pictures, there were many factors in their bringing up’ lack of those things cannot be attached to the reasons you are pointing out here. How they faced tortures can be taught without showing what you guys have been advocating. Three years old doesn’t need to get converted by third party as he grows up now, these are different times; how children slip out, there are numerous reasons and none of them can be attached to” those are not seeing how our ancestors and their children bravely faced tortures”. Wouldn’t it be better to see all this when they are over some age; tenth Master’s Sahibzadas were put into that situations by the circumstances; I wonder why these stories are brought up here just to justify a picture of slaughtering of an animal!!

 

[Sinister]

What sort of stash would this be..........not indulging in the old bhang/sukha are we mate? lol

no comment :shifty:

 

[Sinister]

Not exactly, if one only learns to love, he/she doesn’t even need to learn to hate. A friend of mine who is a Christian, once I confronted him to ignore those people totally who offended him openly instead of smiling again with them as they wish so. His reply hit me hard” Singh, I cannot hate, I just don’t know how to hate, Mom taught me otherwise” You may call him an alien but I understood the factor working in his behavior, he never learnt” hating” and unlike you say” he doesn’t need it to love” Every thing is not round.[/FONT]

Consider that one incident of restraint does not lead to the conclusion that he is void of the feeling of disgust, dislike and hatred. (too simple of an analysis)
or
your freind may be psychologically unsound


having no dislikes/hatereds is not even a life worth living...same goes for love.

In math it would be like having the plus sign without the negative sign...no problems would work because no one can deduce the true value of an integer

certainly a flawed way of living your life

cheers

 

[pk70]

“Consider that one incident of restraint does not lead to the conclusion that he is void of the feeling of disgust, dislike and hatred. (too simple of an analysis)[/FONT]
or[/FONT]
your freind may be psychologically unsound[/FONT]
having no dislikes/hatereds is not even a life worth living...same goes for love” ! Quote Sinister Ji )[/FONT]
[/FONT]
That is the only analysis people give when they are locked out because of their hyper rationality. In spiritual terms, it is called progression of a soul; many of the rational worlds deny that “experienced truth” too. Tell a thief “intoxication of honesty lasts longer than any of your establishments” He will laugh at you! [/FONT]
You do not need to learn hate to love, that is the point. What is worth living is another thing; it may differ exceedingly from rotten to ripe. Mathematics obviously fails to measure “state of indifference” as indifferent persons hardly understand “running with the crowd” !” My problem is that I refuse to be grounded just because of “sheer rationality” as it has also illusions, like a rational person should not cry at a loss, if he/she follows rationality he/she becomes inhuman, if he/she cries, he/she becomes irrational. [/FONT]
I am enjoying your rationality of your posts enveloped in various emotions, every time some thing goes near to emotions, preciousness of rationality evaporates. Smile ![/FONT]

 

[Sinister]

Killing is inhumane! period, be it by anyone.

However, the process of killing is always, INHUMANE

No one has right to take another's life.

It all adds up, sums up.

Fundamental rule when debating…you have lost all sensibility the moment when you go into black and white! (when you start stating absolute truths)

what a linguistic nightmare…no syntax or rationality or understanding of English words.


You are bent over judging physical processes and not the thought that leads to the physical process (when the two are connected at the hip)?

Your thought and your intentions lead to actions (your actions are never inhumane) only your thoughts can be.
All you are doing is debating the “humanity” of the orientation of atoms moving through space and time…not targeting the thoughts that put the atoms into motion.

Here is a thought experiment:
Lets suppose it’s a slippery day (rainy) and your windshield wipers break down and your breaks fail.. you accidentally kill me with your car…IS THAT AN INHUMANE PROCESS/ACTION?

Or

Suicide:
Lets suppose you are a train engineer traveling at 50 km an hour through a station…and some deranged drunk homeless man falls in front of your train and you squash him… IS THAT AN INHUMANE PROCESS/ACTION?

Or

Your a doctor that misdiagnosis a patient… IS THAT AN INHUMANE PROCESS/ACTION?


No its not…its an innocent accident.

The words HUMANE and INHUMANE cannot be denoted to PHYSICAL actions only to the THOUGHTS that carry the actions.


This is the Fundamentals of Linguistics and LAW theories.

You have now learnt what a “fork” is…In a debate (and in chess), a ‘Fork’…is position that will regardless of action lead to checkmate. The more you talk, the harder it gets to come up with a rational argument or defense (hence your erroneous and empty posts)

So where does that leave us?
oh yes
Humane Killing is not an oxy{censored}...its a veridical paradox (boy am I tired of repeating myself)

keep rubbing

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<Fundamental rule when debating…you have lost all sensibility the moment when you go into black and white! (when you start stating absolute truths)

what a linguistic nightmare…no syntax or rationality or understanding of English words.
>>

thank you...as you stand on your holier than thou pedestal...i was again expecting it.

i think i am almost near to assessing you completely

haven't you realized that you just exist for the sake of contradicting and have added little value to the debate?

"give it a thought! "... err... was this a paradoxical statement?


<<You are bent over judging physical processes and not the thought that leads to the physical process (when the two are connected at the hip)?

Your thought and your intentions lead to actions (your actions are never inhumane) only your thoughts can be.
All you are doing is debating the “humanity” of the orientation of atoms moving through space and time…not targeting the thoughts that put the atoms into motion.>>

perhaps you would like to revisit the whole thread and you will understand what this thread is about and read my posts again, slowly and carefully.

i hope that would help. If it does not, well then i am afraid my linguistic skills are not as great as yours as i cannot write foofy words

<<Here is a thought experiment:
Lets suppose it’s a slippery day (rainy) and your windshield wipers break down and your breaks fail.. you accidentally kill me with your car…IS THAT AN INHUMANE PROCESS/ACTION?

Or

Suicide:
Lets suppose you are a train conductor traveling at 50 km an hour through a station…and some deranged drunk homeless man falls in front of your train and you squash him… IS THAT AN INHUMANE PROCESS/ACTION?>>

here is another activity you can do once you get time to get down from your academic perch

Open you dictionary and look up the meaning of word Humane.

Then see the meaning of word Killing.

now start from the scale of Humane to Inhumane. Please let me know how the picture being shown looks Humane.

and just if you want an answer to your experments, your example is the lamest i could ever read.... Those all depicted are Involuntary actions.

read your own mumbo jumbo about atoms and time space and figure out what i mean.

<<This is the Fundamentals of Linguistics and LAW theories.>>

Lingusitics and Law theories

hmm

thank you professor. It has been an entertaining sunday evening.


<<You have now learnt what a “fork” is…In a debate (and in chess), a ‘Fork’…is position that will regardless of action lead to checkmate. The more you talk, the harder it gets to come up with a rational argument or defense (hence your erroneous and empty posts)>>

my professor always used to advise me- steer clear of those who throw theories at every point. They have nothing to share but pompous sounding words and they only speak to confuse you.

thanks for the diversions from the topic.

 

[Sinister]

no sweat killa

judging from the response ive sunk in and youve accepted my underlined words

But I have a question
Is a farmer whose killed 20000 chickens on an “slaughter line” (in one day) consciously killing chickens or at this stage is his actions almost involuntary and existing on subconscious level?

what about the doctor misdiagnosing his patient...that certainly wasn't an involutary action?

(last post)

 

[Archived_Member_19]

nope mate

you got it all wrong

Humane killing is an oxy{censored}

it is as much a VVV what evva paradox as Humane Slavery

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Here is another post made by another blogger on humane killing, am taking liberty to post it here with link as a reference, please delete content if it is a violation of any kind.

once again, i am not a veggie supporter ...this is not about veggie/non veggie being good or bad, it is about calling one act as humane vs another as inhumane

All that is required is owning up !!

isawearthlings.com &bull; View topic - Humane killing is an oxy{censored}

Let’s imagine that we encounter Simon, who is torturing a dog by burning the dog with a blowtorch. Simon’s only reason for torturing the dog is that he derives pleasure from this sort of activity.

Simon is the exact sort of person who is of interest to those concerned about the link between animal “abuse” and human violence.

Why? What is Simon doing that is so troubling?

Simon is violating a moral and legal rule that just about everyone agrees with—that it is wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering or death on animals. And what do we mean by “unnecessary”? We mean that it is wrong to inflict suffering or death on animals merely because it gives us pleasure or we find it amusing. Simon is inflicting unnecessary suffering and death on the dog; he is torturing an animal for no reason other than his pleasure and amusement.

The problem is how is Simon any different from everyone who eats meat, dairy, or eggs?

We kill more than 50 billion animals every year (worldwide) for food. There can be no doubt that animal foods involve an enormous amount of pain, suffering, and death. Animal foods produced under the most “humane” circumstances involve treating animals in ways which, if applied to humans, would constitute torture.

No one maintains that we have to eat animal foods to have optimal health. Indeed, mainstream health care professionals are increasingly of the view that animal foods are harmful for human health. And animal agriculture is a disaster for the environment.

What is the best justification that we have to inflict pain, suffering, and death on 50 billion sentient nonhumans?

The answer: we enjoy the taste of animal products. We derive pleasure from using animals even though there is no necessity involved.

So how are we different from Simon the Sadist?

Answer: we are not.

We pay someone else to kill and prepare the animal flesh, dairy, and eggs that we enjoy. But so what? We are still every bit as morally responsible as Simon the Sadist. There are just more of us and our actions are regarded as acceptable.

- source isawearthlings.com &bull; View topic - Humane killing is an oxy{censored}

 

[Randip Singh]

This topic seems to have gone haywire. Let us address the points one by one:

What is Jhatka?

Jhatka is meant to be a non-ritual method of slaughter. Jhatka is one blow. In the modern context the blow can come from a bolt, gun, etc.

Halal, Kosher, Bali are seen as ritual slaughter. For the Sikh a ritual killing for God (or a God) is seen as hypocrasy and is seen as not needed in Sikhi. A Sikh does not appease God or make apologies. If he is to eat meat then his intention for food and not cruelty.

I agree, there is no humane way to kill period whether it be animal, plant or a human, yet Sikhs do all 3.

The Picture of Jhatka

I was at ,my local Gurudwara last week and an elderly fellow was showing 5 year old children pictures of Sikhs being tortured, broken on the wheel, scalped etc. These pictures are in full view to the public. The Jhatka picture may be disturbing for some, but is it offensive that it needs censorship?

I think the point may have been madethat is may demonstrate to a vegetarian that why one shouldn't kill animals. Then again it may show how swiftly an animal is dispatched with Jhatka.

Promotion of Jhatka

Anything that is non-ritually slaughtered is OK.

 

[Sinister]

nope mate

you got it all wrong

Humane killing is an oxy{censored}

No one who has been killed has come back to tell us whether the process was humane or not. (unlike from slavery and rape victims)

define killing?
the act of a person or thing that kills.

Define Humane?
characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, esp. for the suffering or distressed



Humane killing?

Euthanasia

Fetal abortion (when the fetus poses a threat to the well being of the mother)

Shutting down a life support system on a patient

Killing cancer cells (surely this is humane killing)

Killing Bacteria in an infection (surely this is humane killing)

Misdiagnosing a patient (the doctor cares for the patient in a humane manner but kills them nevertheless)

Giving a severely wounded soldier a lethal dose of morphine

Any other involuntary killing (eg: stepping on a bug)


is their such thing as humane rape and humane slavery?
No there isn’t…all these actions: rape and slavery require intent and can never be involuntary actions.
Killing someone does not always require intent to kill
If there is no intent to kill or no intent to harm, the action leading up to death cannot be labeled as inhumane.

The concept of Humane killing is well and alive…since it is alive it’s not an oxy{censored} (because it exists)…it’s a paradox

 

[Archived_Member_19]

you areignoring an important element - "choice" of the one being killed.

 

[Sinister]

you areignoring an important element - "choice" of the one being killed.

so you would sit there and talk to cancer cell and ask em if she/he wanted to be killed?

and in euthanasia the patient is asisted in suicide and the choice has been made

so i have ignored nothing of what you state.

Is the way the lioness kills the zebra inhumane? does the lion ask the zebra and give it a choice?

The facts resembling the truth is this:
All humans kill
All humans are not inhumane when they do





When you help another…you take away from someone else.

Just you sitting there, breathing air and consuming food/water is killing thousands of living organisms as we speak and leading to their prolonged suffering. (Including the fact that your computer is on and burning electricity)


Me taking a bite of a lettuce leaf is inhumane? (because some caterpillar died a miserable death with an insecticide...which saved the leaf for a little longer and saved myself for a littler longer, because I am now putting that leaf in my mouth)