Short-hair Ban On Gurudwara Marriages

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Dear devinesanative,

As it happens in Military that one who can not remain in service due to personal weakness and runs away so do in Gurmat if some one due to persoanl weaknes can not obey the order of Guru as per least code of conduct is apostate or Patit or like we we have deserters in Army.

We have punishments of desreters in Amry in disgrace so same could be with the Patit.

A Patit is fre to defect to others faith but like a deserters has no place in Army so Pati can not be a Sikh.

Some examples are Sirgumm(what you call Mona or 'un'Clean Shvaen).Kliier of female child or user of tobacco or Halal food or one who commit adultary.

As Gurmat is practical faith so what we are indoctrine we put into practise so if say in Army some one does not gather at compulsary parade each morning whih is ofetn useless that person is deemed as breacker of dicpline and Neem or rules are must for any communtiy or group so is Gurmat.

As erson who breaks the rule an not be loayal to the hilosohy or mission of the institution .
Das hope you have understood that people who lack faith turn Patit.

Coming to 5ks.AS by respected HP Luthra Ji.

Das would like to say that in his own example that he has not converted into Gurmay from Hindusim due to Bani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji but of Shri Dasham Granth Sahib Ji and Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji.

Till first Nine Gurus Kes were only with Guru but Tenth master made his followers as his own from and for that he needed to more vloume of Holy Scripture to le us be form of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

As Guru was leader and we enthused leadership in us or made us Sirdar or Singh or Lion so veryly a figgther and a political ruler in Democaric set up of Khalsa was to be having Extra qualities then Sikhs who were very good saintly householders but also in a proces to be ruler whicj Tenth Guru made them realise.

 

[devinesanative]

Dear Das Ji

Honestly tell me , as per your defintion of Patits ?

Did you ever not committed any sort of Patit Acitivities ..........

 

[hpluthera]

Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages

Sikhs and Khalsa are two different aspects of Sikhi.
Sikhism is the path of naam and Spiritualaity.
Khalsa is the order of Spiritual Army - Saint Soldiers.
Those (ver few) are indeed Khalsas we salute them and they as True Khalsa should inspire other Sikhs to become Khalsa by their good deeds and Karams. Not by caiming to be a superior race of Sikhs hence Thekedars and dictate their terms for who shoul come to Gurdwara and who not etc. It is Sarb Sanjhi Bani Sanjhi Wal" Thos in Sikh forum talk like this infact non Sikhs just Bshurupiay not Khalsas. They want to scare away majority from Gurudwarsa and misuse the conrol for various non religious and corrupt activities.

Be cautioned.
HP Luthera

Alright, now I have a little time on my hands, I shall post my views.

I am in favor of this ban.

It promotes something which should have been promoted long ago, the core of a Sikh. It defines what a Sikh is and should be or gives atleast a base for the definition to grow of.

Many people will say how this is discrimination. How is this discrimination if it is a persons choice to keep kesh or not? You can not relate this to the caste system or say how this is blatant discrimination, because the caste system or heritage is something that your BORN with. This is a decision you make in life, to shave or cut your hair. Just like drugs, or smoking.

Some people will also say how the Guru offers his hands to everyone, and this is closing of Sikhism to the "elite". Once again this view is wrong, simply because the Guru is not closing off any relation to the Mona. He is simply saying, I shall help you in your quest, please take this step for me, and I'll help you forever.

The Khalsa Panth has 5 obligatory kakkars that must be maintained before recieving amrit. Why aren't the monay yelling about discrimination there? The Guru set it in stone, that in order to become Khalsa, you must do this and this. He never turned down a mona that came up to him to recieve amrit, but he didn not just give out amrit in masses to the many monay that were running around...He helped them become Khalsa first, in appearance as well as internally, and then gave them amrit to soldify it.

Just as is the case with this ban, the Guru is always there, he will help you first, maintain your kesh, and hopefully cleanse you internally, and then will allow you to perform anand karaj alongside him.

Some may say, why not go after other things that is against Sikhi, such as drugs and alcohol. Now, of course these things are against Sikhi, but they can not be noted unless they are widely used by the person, and if they are, than I fully agree that the Gyani Ji should just get up and leave. But, you see the point here is that, Kesh can be seen everywhere and everytime, hence why this is the base of the ban. Another argument could be that people will not just grow their hair to get married, and then cut it afterwards.

So? People could pull the same tactic off with recieving Amrit. If they choose to make a mockery of the Sikh religion, theres nothing we can really do.

Also, some say this will just push of the Monay more, and the kids will move away from Sikhism. Ok, perhaps thats what we need, the first thing they should learn is that your not a Sikh by birth, its something you become. This ban will soldify that. Perhaps they will learn that to take part and have pride in the history, they must also become what the historic Khalsay were. Maybe it will give them a reality check. All this ban is, is on marriage, it can not drive them away that far. Plus, since marriage takes place usually in the 20's, the kid has 20+ years to learn Sikhism and see if he wants to get married according to its guidelines or not. Why would a 14 year old Mona really care about a marriage law that he most likely won't even be familiar with. By the time he's familiar with the ban, he will already have formed an opinion of Sikhs, Sikhism, and if he wants to practice Sikhi or not. He will know, if he wants to become Sikh or remain secular.

A good move by placing this ban. I think its something we needed in place a long time ago.

 

[devinesanative]

Dear DAs Ji

Very nice …………..

So , this is the definition of patit according to you ………..

Dear Friend , Don’t narrow down the meaning of Sikhi , with your narrow mindset ………

Just Imagine yourself 500 years back , and imagine Yourself to be a hindu , the era of GuruNanak Dev Ji , ok

As per your definition you would have called GuruNanak Dev ji as Patit ………..

If it is so then there are many Great People who are Patits according to you ……

Guru Nanak Dev ji,
All the 10 Gurus,
Kabir
Budhdha
Socrates
Laotse
Mohammed
And Many great Seers
Ram
Krishna

If it is so then here it is the new definition of patit

As it is said that words are an empty container , and the meaning lies in the people who use it …..

From the above we can conclude that all the above people rejected the dogmas prevalent in the society and thus helped to simplify the living of the people.

New Definition :

Patit : A person of great Intellectual and Sprititual understanding who rejects the dogmas prevalent in the society and thus simplifies the living of the people in a civilized society in the guidance of AKAL ………

As it is said

Hindu anna , turko kana

And Here I amend this line like this

Hindu anna , turko kana
Sikh bhi hai ek Murkh sayana

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Well dear devinesanative,

It is better that you go and have a sort of arguement with Guru Gobind Singh Ji who wrote,

Marks of Sikhis are letters Five ks and no pardoniing on them and this is as per the old tradtion.

Das has read this and due to the faith in the word of Guru kept that.

Das respect AKJ people with thier faith as wityh faith also truth can be ralised and easer then logic.

As per Gurmat of Tenth Master Budha and Mahveers are not valid(See Dasham Granth).

Das agrees to to you and respect your views if you behold gurmat as Dogma but das can say
thatb neither of the person told by below at any time have kept five ks and intitated into Sikhism and then cut their hairs or say used tobacco or commited adultary or eaten Halal.

Das would like to you tom read Islam in it is said that to shave is a sin when we are on pilgrimage.If some hing is sin during pilgrimage as it undermines its effect.

As per orthodox Church see thier Padris(Das sister in law is russina and her parential family is still from that faith),They never cut thier hairs or shave.They when saw Das as Sikh thiught that das has become thiewr Padri type.

In jews you need to understand about Samson.

Lastly as per Manusamriti if some punishment is to be given then beared and hairs are shaved.

Lastly both the Sau Sakhis tell

Puratan Hindus or Forefathers of Hindus never shaved at all(proof is that no such shavinbg intrument discovered from vedic time Aryans as far as Das knows).And Sikhim is its revival(Bije Mukt Sakhi Dasvi).

As per Mangal Prakash,

In past all people use to warship Akal and had uncut hairs,King Nanda,a Budhist force them to shave .

Coming back to isue of baning mariige in Gurudwaras by Patits Das has already said that this will encourage them to go to Pandits and they may give up Gurmat foreever while otherwise they may make thier childern a Sikh.

Das also wants to say that Nirmalas semnaires to whioch das is Attached due allow Patits to have Nam Daan(way to rember God).

Yet Patit Can never,Never be called a Sikh as rebel can not be a patriot.Yes we can teach a rebel patriotism.

Sikhi did not start from First
Master but from Akal since universe was created by Akal by Akal's own self.

Ram And Krishna can be Sikh but same can not be true for Budha who refused to recoganise God altoghater and told to good by self to give birth to ego so service to universe concept was defeated by ego.

Das refuses to accept your defination as you are saying that a person himself/herself is doing all while in Gurmat all deeds are from Akal.

Also das finds it anti Gurmat the way you have tried to disfigure the Gurbani by adding your own verses in verse by God.

In fact your own verses are from God but are not in Guru Granth Sahib Ji which we as our guide for truth.

And by the mercy of Akal after becoming Sikh das can say without any reluctance that he has not done anything out side the code of conduct as given to him by Tenth Master at the end of Dasham Granth neither did he disresepcted 5 ks nor used any of the 4 hs. or adultary.

When das was Hindu he used to smoke and drink and shave also and often ate Halal(not in his house but in maternal side when das was young).And might have used Hinna or dye also but no Adulatray but after becoming Sikh Das has not donre done Anti To Faith as told by Guru.

If you want to start a new Faith like Radhswamis or Nirankaris Das will Welcome you.

Yuor acts are acts by God as God in you wants to enjoy the feeling of a rebel but there could be chaos if all are rebel.

Best of Luck but after you what you said will become a sort of rule or ritual for what you did and said for you followers and then there will another devinesanative who will challenge your sayings.

As per Karl marx this tihng seems to be OK Thesis,Anti Thiese and Synthese and that Synthies becomes another theseis and another Anti Thesis to it.

Das can say that one without 5ks or Patit can also get salvation yet thye can not be termed as Sikh.

Reason is that Akal make us its own form as Khalsa and Akal by self is making us to stick to illogical 5Ks to let the world know that these are the one who have no brain of thier own and no body either as all belong to Akal.

In Nirmalas there were Kachu Katiyas or Chaku Katiaya who had mentality like you so some other sects also.
http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_samparda_kachoo.html

Who had menatilty like you They were respected by Sikhs but could not be termed as Sikh they were more Nanak Naam Leva,Nanak Panthi or Nanak Shahi.

Das can respect your views but can not agree to you at any cost.

St Kabir was told to chose death or giving his life so did happened to many of our Gurus And Sikhs but they alsways choose thier faith as govewrned by Akal.

Das has yet to see those people who cutn thier hair to court girl freind to to adjust in western life becoming our guide.

All philosophies even Nazis(who belived that comibintion of idealogies or invating new one) or Communist also who aimed at end of state and faith did makre ruled and adhered as without rules there has to be an anarchy and clashes.

So even if Sikhs and others followe there faith as tolod by God to them then there culd not be clash between humans and no violence.

Das can give you an example.

by rule we use wheat to meet our energy requirements.

Alchohal can do the same but after treatment.

A scintest can experiment and see that if it works and otherwise it can be fatal also.

So if you want to expiriment by making your own kind of Sikhism and want to be a prophet you are most welcome.

But as a Khalsa who follows Guru without question as Kabir did to Ramanada and As Guru Nanak Did it with Gurubar Akal we ourself enjoy the status of Guru/Avtar/Prophet collectively and till you follow the Guru you can not be one of us.

One has to kill his/her individual ego and to be a part of team called brotherhood of Khalsa then thus state of Khalsa is reached.

Yuo can be a Guru of your own type of Sikhism but even when Alchohal can become substitue of wheat people may still use wheat and Alchohal can not replace it as no one knows after efftects while wheat(Gurmat) is time tested since universe was made.

Das has followed what Guru said and will follow the same .Weather he is termed as Radical or narrow minded or pig or dog Das does not care.

Das does not have to worry about it as Guru keeps worrys of all and does what is Good for all.No man by self can do anything but God does and we are tools only.

Das is not going personal and tenders an apology if something wrong is writtan but Das could make outn that you have an urge to start a fresh a new idealogy of your own then following the Path set up in past on which many moved and got salvaged.Any indesipline can devitate us from that path.

This is very Good and das wish you a success.May you make your own path and we will respect you but as a Great man but not as a Sikh till you do not follow code of conduct and by your personal weakness if you can not follow that Path or can not realise the God by it then it may not means that others have the similar expirances.

If someone fails an exam then that persona must not think that all others are failures.

 

[devinesanative]

Dear Das Ji ,

Ok , Go and Ban it !

Do let us know what you are gong to Ban next ?

I have many more questions to ask you But ......... Wait .............

I humbly request that please don't try to bring the Hindu mentality to Sikhism..... Otherwise it will be called as ..............

Sikhism to Bannism !

edited for reducing the font size...........

 

[devinesanative]

Dear Thekedars and Contractors of Sikhism

Answer these questions the list not exhaustive ...........

If it is so then why ............

Why there is So much Corruption in Sikhism ?

Why At the time of Selection of Pradhan in Gurudwaras People fight Like Children and bring our swords to kill each other ?

Why sikhs are leaving india and settling abroad ?


Why Sikh families are not willing to marry their daughters to the Indian guys why they are running after NRIs ?


Why Sikhs are running After STATUS ?

WHY Sikhs ARe running After REPUTATION ?

Why Sikhs Always Run After MONEY ! MONEY !

Why Sikh families demand CLEAN SHAVEN GUY ?

Why SIkhs go to BABAS to do SOMe MIRacles ?


there are many more I will post ...........

 

[devinesanative]

dear Das ji

As it is a common trend that people believe those who present with facts :

Here is a content from the front page from the website :
www.srigurugranthsahibji.com

God is love and love is God. As God cannot be confined, restricted or limited to any particular
creed, cult, race, similarly Religion of love cannot
be restricted or confined in geographical limits
and boundaries. Sri Guru Nanak Sahib's Religion
of Love is cosmic and universal in its appeal,
holy folds and dimensions.

It is a Religion of perfect and universal Love
totally free from man-made barriers of colour, caste, creed and status. It is a Religion which radiates with a deep thirst for the Divine and
with the highest gospel of purity of heart,
mind, body, speech and deeds.

It is a Religion which establishes brotherhood of
the whole global community irrespective of colour, caste, creed, race and nationality purely on the basis and foundation of love and equality,
all being the children of the same lovable God.God is love and love is God. As God cannot be confined, restricted or limited to any particular
creed, cult, race, similarly Religion of love cannot
be restricted or confined in geographical limits
and boundaries. Sri Guru Nanak Sahib's Religion
of Love is cosmic and universal in its appeal,
holy folds and dimensions.

It is a Religion of perfect and universal Love
totally free from man-made barriers of colour, caste, creed and status. It is a Religion which radiates with a deep thirst for the Divine and
with the highest gospel of purity of heart,
mind, body, speech and deeds.

It is a Religion which establishes brotherhood of
the whole global community irrespective of colour, caste, creed, race and nationality purely on the basis and foundation of love and equality,
all being the children of the same lovable God.


Is this just to protray the image of Sikhism to the outside world only . or It is really practised and followed ?

 

[hpluthera]

Gurfateh

I am trying to make a point that Order of Khalsa is independent of Sikhi. It is step forward but the fundamental necessity to be a Sikh. Divin. ji quoted the Hindu Ana, Turak Kana, and twisted the other line second line stays correct Sabna ton Gyani Syana. Gyani doesn ot mean a Amrit Chhakka Bhai but a wise enlightened person.

Amrit is a vow Sikhi is a spiritual path. Sikh has to live a Sant Ka Marg Dharam Ki Pauri and Every one does not even get that Ko vadbhagi Pavey. May I ask that those who are AmritDhari Sikhs are Superior kind in Sikh Dharam in any way. Rehat Piyari Mo Ko Sikh Piyara Nahi.
How about the total Rehat. Behrupia Khalsas are more in existence than real.
and that is because the Spirituality saint hood is absent from today's majority Khalsa. Extremism glorification to violence without sacrifice or humility are today's Khalsas I see in many Gurudwaras who fight for petty positions and egos. What are those models. Bani is to wash and Gurus took themselves 200 years to wash and left behind SGGS to continue to do the washing process. Spread Bani and let your children read and know the Sikhs History correctly other things will automatically come in place.

Khalsa Has History of great sacrifice Valorous Deeds and Sainthood. That will teach children to follow the path of Khalsa not insistence of Symble and imposition of Bans and exclusion from society. It is Murkh thinking of low wisdom and intellect. Acceptance and embrace give the oppurtunity to communicate and explain in perfect way. Whole of India accepted Sri Guru Nanak Devji and His Bani and then some people who did not like it glorified Sikhs only as Khalsas and others less Sikhs. Khalsa is like UN Force set by Guru Gobind Singh ji in whose presence Hindus, Women and other weaker section of society always felt safe. Khalsa was a symble of Honesty in British Raj( AS I have read and heard from my elders) That in courts any evidence given by Khalsa was taken as Final and Truth even without oath. In all over europe the the tourist guide had the reference till 1980's that if you get lost in India and Seek hel of a Sikh they are most dependable people. Khushwant singh wrote that Sikhs are uncredentialed ambassadors of India all over the world. If you want the Khalsa to be Glorified punish those who in the Garb of Khalsa commit all those sins and tarnish the image of Khals not those who walk away from Khalsa hood to soft sikhs. I feel the soft Sikhs are more responsible as if they could not live up to Khalsa Character they did not continue to pretend and be hypocrats. In today's world and ever changing society the Life with five K's is if not impossible, it is indeed very difficult and can restrict your life style.
regards

HP Luthera
Dear devinesanative,

As it happens in Military that one who can not remain in service due to personal weakness and runs away so do in Gurmat if some one due to persoanl weaknes can not obey the order of Guru as per least code of conduct is apostate or Patit or like we we have deserters in Army.

We have punishments of desreters in Amry in disgrace so same could be with the Patit.

A Patit is fre to defect to others faith but like a deserters has no place in Army so Pati can not be a Sikh.

Some examples are Sirgumm(what you call Mona or 'un'Clean Shvaen).Kliier of female child or user of tobacco or Halal food or one who commit adultary.

As Gurmat is practical faith so what we are indoctrine we put into practise so if say in Army some one does not gather at compulsary parade each morning whih is ofetn useless that person is deemed as breacker of dicpline and Neem or rules are must for any communtiy or group so is Gurmat.

As erson who breaks the rule an not be loayal to the hilosohy or mission of the institution .
Das hope you have understood that people who lack faith turn Patit.

Coming to 5ks.AS by respected HP Luthra Ji.

Das would like to say that in his own example that he has not converted into Gurmay from Hindusim due to Bani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji but of Shri Dasham Granth Sahib Ji and Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji.

Till first Nine Gurus Kes were only with Guru but Tenth master made his followers as his own from and for that he needed to more vloume of Holy Scripture to le us be form of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

As Guru was leader and we enthused leadership in us or made us Sirdar or Singh or Lion so veryly a figgther and a political ruler in Democaric set up of Khalsa was to be having Extra qualities then Sikhs who were very good saintly householders but also in a proces to be ruler whicj Tenth Guru made them realise.

I am trying to make a point that Order of Khalsa is independent of Sikhi. It is step forward but the fundamental necessity to be a Sikh. Divin. ji quoted the Hindu Ana, Turak Kana, and twisted the other line second line stays correct Sabna ton Gyani Syana. Gyani doesn ot mean a Amrit Chhakka Bhai but a wise enlightened person.

Amrit is a vow Sikhi is a spiritual path. Sikh has to live a Sant Ka Marg Dharam Ki Pauri and Every one does not even get that Ko vadbhagi Pavey. May I ask that those who are AmritDhari Sikhs are Superior kind in Sikh Dharam in any way. Rehat Piyari Mo Ko Sikh Piyara Nahi.
How about the total Rehat. Behrupia Khalsas are more in existence than real.
and that is because the Spirituality saint hood is absent from today's majority Khalsa. Extremism glorification to violence without sacrifice or humility are today's Khalsas I see in many Gurudwaras who fight for petty positions and egos. What are those models. Bani is to wash and Gurus took themselves 200 years to wash and left behind SGGS to continue to do the washing process. Spread Bani and let your children read and know the Sikhs History correctly other things will automatically come in place.

Khalsa Has History of great sacrifice Valorous Deeds and Sainthood. That will teach children to follow the path of Khalsa not insistence of Symble and imposition of Bans and exclusion from society. It is Murkh thinking of low wisdom and intellect. Acceptance and embrace give the oppurtunity to communicate and explain in perfect way. Whole of India accepted Sri Guru Nanak Devji and His Bani and then some people who did not like it glorified Sikhs only as Khalsas and others less Sikhs. Khalsa is like UN Force set by Guru Gobind Singh ji in whose presence Hindus, Women and other weaker section of society always felt safe. Khalsa was a symble of Honesty in British Raj( AS I have read and heard from my elders) That in courts any evidence given by Khalsa was taken as Final and Truth even without oath. In all over europe the the tourist guide had the reference till 1980's that if you get lost in India and Seek hel of a Sikh they are most dependable people. Khushwant singh wrote that Sikhs are uncredentialed ambassadors of India all over the world. If you want the Khalsa to be Glorified punish those who in the Garb of Khalsa commit all those sins and tarnish the image of Khals not those who walk away from Khalsa hood to soft sikhs. I feel the soft Sikhs are more responsible as if they could not live up to Khalsa Character they did not continue to pretend and be hypocrats. In today's world and ever changing society the Life with five K's is if not impossible, it is indeed very difficult and can restrict your life style.
regards

HP Luthera
Dear devinesanative,

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Das is sorry that respected DSe Ji have took that Das is opposing that Patits be not allowed in Gurudwaras for Marrige as Just have look on first post by Das in this thread.

Das is appreihancive that ban can lead to going to patits into fold of Brahmins and thier conversion to Hinduism due to that.


Then comes your questions.

Das is sure that you are a Punjabi.


What das knows of Gurmat that once a Sikh then no longer Bihari or Punjabi.

Problems which are been encountered are not by Sikhs but Punjabis in the grab of Sikhs who have brought thier Jattism or similar racial or regioanl things in Panth and act as bullies.

Hinduism has reduced from best Aryan faith into regianal Indian thing which was previously in whole of the world.

Reason is thier tolrance to non sence.

Like Yagnas or Vedas etc. oppose idolatories but at present there are many temples where Holy Vedas and Yagnas are done with idols.

So Panth can not tolrate hypocracy or intolrance to non sence.This is the way did Islam surved in Hindu Majority India.

Das would like to say that Sikhs in Deccan(south India;s native) and say in Bihar are very much particular in this regard.They can marry in non Sikh and without problem have good reations with them but there is no record of thier tolrating Patits so they survive still and better than in Punjab.

Even they do not doubt Gurus saying and with commitment follow it and as a result Holy Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth are respected there.

In Punjab das can say that if instituions like Damdami Taksal and Sant Samaj can be encouraged then many problems can be solved but they must have large amount of missionaries like S. Gurbax Singh Ji missiorieis in them acting as a safegurad from ritualism falling in.

There is a need of integrated approach devotion by sants and knoweldge by missioniers and then only in Punjab or natives punjab people Gurmat can survive but it will forever survive in west or in rest of the India or in Arebia where Sikhs follow Guru with devotion.

Civilisation or Culture or Nations are amde of rule of law or self decipline else primitive statege still exist in many part of the world.

Das is soory if he hurt you and forgive him but Das wants to say that patits can be allowed to come to Gurudwara and be given a chance to undo thier wrong doing but till then they are not Sikhs(female can be pragenet or not Pragnent and no half way).

In past holy people opposed anrachy created by vested interest who were misinterpreting faith for thier personal goals and so after removing evil they restored order.

Yes there are many pakhandis in Panth who have made panth even more ridid then Brahmins and unfit for practical life.

As many of our young find people not followinf such code yet roaring that they are true Sikhs.Young people tend to think that this faith is a hypocracy and unfit to follow.

That is not the fault of Faith.

If you have faith in Akal who is in All(Read Dasham Granth From Gobind Sadan.org).if youare furtunate that Akal does mrecy on you then Das is sure that you will get the reply of most of the question you have asked.

It is simple that Guru told us to not meet Minas,Masands,Sirgums,DheerMaliyas or Ramrayas as they did the same as many of the punjabis in guise of Sikhs are doing.

Gurmat is neither Indian or Punjabi but universal.

Killing of female is Bad universal,so is adultary,so usage of Tobacco ,so is not seing God in All(Blood is life and flesh is not is the reason of Halal whihch would have been of Jesus)so is concealing the effect of nature on us by dyeing our berad and soit is Bad to remoe hairs which God in Guru told us to keep.

Das prepeats that patit can get salvation bbut Can not be a Khalsa.

 

[kds1980]

wjkk
wjkf

if a sikh cuts his hair then who is he.is he a hindu.if we beleive that sikhism is a religion then we have to accept everybody inculding patits

 

[hpluthera]

Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages

There is nothing wrong with a discussion but do not get personal.

All Sikhs oppose such a ban and I wonder who has initiated it and where. In india more Sikh youngsters have cut hair than overseas. Almost all Sikh leaders with flowing long beards have their sons or grandsons clean shaven, Majority of Guru Dwaras overseas are having Management Committees with all Monas. So where from and by who this ban is imposed. AS isn Christianity lot of splinter groups made their own churches so will happen in Sikhism due to such talks. Guru Nanak's Prachar for Sikhi was and is to include every one and teach Guru Gobind Singh's Order of Khalsa was to create a Force who protect all not only those who are Khalsas. Guru Teg Bahadur Sacrificed his life for Hindu Brahmin to protect their Tilak and janau and they were Gurus guests and were given separate Kitchen to cook their meals and not eat from Langar. Read History of Sikhs by DR. Sangat Singh. Who are these people who spread such kind of non Sikh philosophy. They are the elements who do not want to let Sikhism grow and are trying to take over Sikh institutions by wearing hypocratic Robe of Khalsa and misuse the Guru dwaras for wrong purpose not for Gurbani Parchar. They will break up Sikhs and sacrifice tolerence and sacrifice spirit of Khalsas and Sikhs so Dear brothers be ware of them. Some years back Naxalites did this to our youth and institutions and many Marxist Communists have exploited our youths to commit nurders and crimes of political nature. Now there are groups of Human Smugglers who wish to take over Punjab Lands by scaring away and misguiding our youngsters by excluding them or making then intolerent to others an extremists and preaching Sikhism as near to Islamist beliefs. Beware this will lead to a great damage to our next generation.

No guru dwara be allowed to exclude any one rather identify those who talk like this and exclude them. We have enemy with in in garb of extreme thinking sterio type claimant of being a superior Sikh -Amritdhari.

Gurbani preaches to embrace all bless all for their welfare and then grace them with naam to aaccept the command of guru but if you do not let him close to Guru -whose parents might have failed to do the task or his circumstance s did that how can he know his Guru.

I think the Gurdwara which imposes such a ban should be declared "persona non grata" Not a Sikh Institution but and Adda of Gangs of anti Sikh beliefs. This will be the place where all illegal ant national and other activities will be more likely happening. If you want to be certain just investigate the background of the management Committees.

HP

 

[hpluthera]

If Tail of a Cow is cut does she become a donkey,

wjkk
wjkf

if a sikh cuts his hair then who is he.is he a hindu.if we beleive that sikhism is a religion then we have to accept everybody inculding patits

 

[drkhalsa]

All Sikhs oppose such a ban and I wonder who has initiated it and where. In india more Sikh youngsters have cut hair than overseas. Almost all Sikh leaders with flowing long beards have their sons or grandsons clean shaven, Majority of Guru Dwaras overseas are having Management Committees with all Monas. So where from and by who this ban is imposed. AS isn Christianity lot of splinter groups made their own churches so will happen in Sikhism due to such talks. Guru Nanak's Prachar for Sikhi was and is to include every one and teach Guru Gobind Singh's Order of Khalsa was to create a Force who protect all not only those who are Khalsas. Guru Teg Bahadur Sacrificed his life for Hindu Brahmin to protect their Tilak and janau and they were Gurus guests and were given separate Kitchen to cook their meals and not eat from Langar. Read History of Sikhs by DR. Sangat Singh. Who are these people who spread such kind of non Sikh philosophy. They are the elements who do not want to let Sikhism grow and are trying to take over Sikh institutions by wearing hypocratic Robe of Khalsa and misuse the Guru dwaras for wrong purpose not for Gurbani Parchar. They will break up Sikhs and sacrifice tolerence and sacrifice spirit of Khalsas and Sikhs so Dear brothers be ware of them. Some years back Naxalites did this to our youth and institutions and many Marxist Communists have exploited our youths to commit nurders and crimes of political nature. Now there are groups of Human Smugglers who wish to take over Punjab Lands by scaring away and misguiding our youngsters by excluding them or making then intolerent to others an extremists and preaching Sikhism as near to Islamist beliefs. Beware this will lead to a great damage to our next generation.

No guru dwara be allowed to exclude any one rather identify those who talk like this and exclude them. We have enemy with in in garb of extreme thinking sterio type claimant of being a superior Sikh -Amritdhari.

Gurbani preaches to embrace all bless all for their welfare and then grace them with naam to aaccept the command of guru but if you do not let him close to Guru -whose parents might have failed to do the task or his circumstance s did that how can he know his Guru.

I think the Gurdwara which imposes such a ban should be declared "persona non grata" Not a Sikh Institution but and Adda of Gangs of anti Sikh beliefs. This will be the place where all illegal ant national and other activities will be more likely happening. If you want to be certain just investigate the background of the management Committees.

HP

Dear Hpluthera ji


I would like to say something about it . I know that you might be senior then me in age and have known sikhi more than me but there are some points in your post that I dont agree so I thought of sharing with you forgive me I say something that seems inaapropiate may be due to my lack of knowledge as we all here to learn

Imposing a ban seems ridculous to me as well but still I have some feeling that go for the ban I would like to explain it

I dont agree to your point that Khalsa is special force and they were made to protect others and you can just follow what other guru JI has said and Khalsa was just special invention of tenth guru to tackle the situation of that time and does not hold good now . As considred widely by many scholars of sikh faith and personaly by me as well that Khalsa was the final product of formation of SIKHI that started with Guru Nanak Dev ji it was kind of 200 year plus mission which culminated in the formation of sikhi it was the final desired product and not just biproduct of sikh revolution in human history and just to add Rehatnamas which were derived from Bani Of Dasam Pathsha Guru Gobind Singh ji clearly says about the physical appearance of a sikh . All this confusion in our community about what to follow what not has a ROOT in the nonacceptance and ignorance of sikh commnity of the BANI of Guru Gobind Singh ji and this confusion will go on until this issue is resolved

Now I agree with you that Teaching of GuruGranth Sahib is for whole humanity and is and should be available to every body

I agree with you that that by just keeping kakaars some one doesnot become pious then someone who do very good deeds but is not with kakaars . Infact it is good thing infact if somebody who is amritdhari and do some thing antigurmat you point out that this man even being guru ka sikh has done such shameful act . No how will you point out a man who belongs to nothing ( short hair , cut surds ) !! YOu cant ! becuse such man cant be held accountable ( this is what is called NIGURA by Nihang Sikh) for what he do .
So being Gursikh with Kakaars is just Pledging that from now on I will try to follow my gurus teaching and he becomes accountable for what he do
And the beauty of Guru Gobind Singh ji Act of creating khalsa lies in this only you cant hide yourself IF you are guru ka Sikh because such is your appearance and this help you to lead pious life .This is very parallel to situation in our Guru jis Time Many peopel who were not brave enough would just turn their away from guru in difficult times and they will say that they are just hindu not sikh , at the time their enemy was mughal army and in present world the situation is same and now the enemy is Temptaions ( Drugs , Adultery , crime ) of modern civilisation and in such situation as well it is easy for someone who is not following sikh in physical form to faal for for it as he is not accoutable and as every body is doing it then whats wrong in it

Just to make it short physical is the essential for follwing sikh religion as it help you in your spirtual journey and makeds you r accountable to what you do . I agrre with you that people are abusing this thing by just keeping kakaars and doing every thing antigurmat but the good thing is such corrupt people become so visibel to you and you can do something about it but think what of they become invisible and unaccountable for what they they do then it will be more difficult to tacle them

Gurbani preaches to embrace all bless all for their welfare and then grace them with naam to aaccept the command of guru but if you do not let him close to Guru -whose parents might have failed to do the task or his circumstance s did that how can he know his Guru.

Totally agree with you here but the issue we are disscusing here is different Khalsa Ji We are not disscusing about barring anybody from visting Gurdwara but when they come to marry somebody there , when they try to fool their Guru ji by tying a turban on cut hair , when they try to look like a sikh , when they dont shave for couple of days so that turban does not look odd on face , when the first thing they do after ANAND Karaj is to go and remove their turban and get good shave
do you think that such a person is there to utiliae this oppertunity to lcome close to guru ji ( which their parent failed to do )

Still I wont say that they should be banned as this again anti gurmat but such a weeding hurt me for sure and I think at such a accasion the couple should be counselled and made aware of what they are doing instead of banning them

As compared to this as suggested by Vijaydeep Singh I would welcome marriageds of our hindu brothers in gurdwara as it could be one time chance for them to be close to Guru Ji and make a change in their life

When you Compare the sikh beliefs with islamic beliefs I can see nothing wrong in it

In present day world IF islam has put in bad picture this doesnot mean that ISlAM on the whole is bad or Crap this would be most unscientific way look at it . Their is no Doubt that there are many many beautiful thing That still exist in islam are source of inspiration . Even my Muslim friend agree that the current picture of islam is due to Mullas ( Religious preacher) belong to most Dumb group of society as educated people and intelligent people dont want to become reilgious leader so all the dumb and school dropouts get to become mullas and then they use their little brain to manpulate message of islam

The same thing is undeway in SIKHISM where most of our granthis and Bhaijis are uneducated and if you think that by propagating your message that its okay to be Cut Hair sikh and Being Physically gursikh is not neccasry then we are going down the same line as Islam went 1000 Years back As in islam there is Physical code accordin g to shariat law and every Muslim use to follow ( long beared , specific mustache and wearing clothes in lower part of body above ankle )it strictly and then they strated making excuses and the result today is that only mullas follow it and other people have lost control because they lost there power as they dont follow what Prophet Muhamed told them to do so now they are on mercy of mullas and what mullas have done to islam every body knows






Jatinder Singh

 

[devinesanative]

Thoughout the SPN forum postings , there is a lot of contracdictions by many scholars , one scholar at one time says something else then at the other at other time at the another post says something else .......

Sorry , Das ji , your postings also contradict with your own postings ..........

It has become really confusing whom to believe and whom not to believe.........

Dear Drkhalsa ji below is your post borrowed from the book of Gurbax Singh Ji , which you yourself has posted, and your above post contradicts with this post ..........

excerpt from the post by DRKhalsa "Sikhism Misunderstood" by Gurbax Singh

Now to conclude, it can be said safely, without any fear of contradiction that Guru Nanak laid the foundation of a non-sectarian, universal faith for the whole humanity, not just another religion. Unfortunately, those who claim to follow it, have mis-understood it and describe it only as modern religion or at the most a happy blend of what is good in Hinduism and Islam. Further it has been limited to the rituals of doing or not doing something and eating or not eating certain foods. it is limited sometimes to the identity (5 K's) given to the followers which is to express their conviction in the faith and not faith itself. Sikhism cannot be confined to these narrow bounds. It is not just a new religion; it is a way of life for the new man-the man who believes all men are brethren and children of the same God and its mission is to work for the welfare of all and when the occasion demands to sacrifice his all for this ideal.



If external form is more important than the Internal Form , Then to be a doctor , what a person should do is , just buy a doctors apparel , a Stethoscope and some doctors tool and start practising............

 

[devinesanative]

Guru Gobind Singh Ji , was really a True Guru with great Vision , and he knew that what is going to happen in the future .........

It can be just imagined !

What would have happend had he not stopped the Guru System in the human Form ?

Other wise , there would have been a strong fight over being the Next Guru ........................ ,

And the eruption and mushrooming of Babas and Sants would have cause much damage , Every one could have claimed to be the next Guru .........

 

[kds1980]

wjkk
wjkf

dear dr.khalsa ji i agree with the statement of hpluthera ji that khalsa was a special force to protect the others.one of the biggest example is bhai
nand lal .bhai nand lal was a sikh wrote rehatnamas but he didn't took amrit
himself.

now about your point of teaching of guru granth sahib is for everyone i disagree .it is only for sikhs.any person who beleives guru granth sahib its liviing guru is sikh.please tell how can a muslim
or christian follow guru granth sahib when they don't beleive in reincarnation while guru granth sahib clearly says that all your sufferings are due to your past lives karmas.similarly how can a orthodox hindu follows a guru granth sahib when guru granth sahib condemns idol worship.those who beleives in guru granth sahibs teaching are sikhs.

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear Devine senative JI

Thanks for your input and I ask for forgiveness for causing the confusion to you

With Akal ji Kirpa I have recently stated looking into sikhism and so I have evry basic knowledge of the facts and could be wrong at many things and I would like o improve on it
I could not understand Your calling various people Scholar or something if you call such names sarcastically i wonder how it helps you but doesnot help anybody like me who is having vary basic knowledge in sikhi but fr sure there few Singhs here on Forum how can be rightly called scholar like Vijaydeep Singh
Now you said I contradict at various places on the forum there are two pint i would like to share

1 Many of my post on this forum are not present my personal thoughts but to start and disscuss various issues so that we can draw some conclusion and ;earn from them so I dont think there is any reason that I should oppose or defend writings of varios Gursikhs that are posted by me

2. Even if I post my own vies on the forum they are bound to change with time infact they even change from day to day basis as i learn more i tend to change my views and consider it a learning process so just in plain word i am not a teacher of some revered text that cant contradict itself

the example you gave me of that actually I could not appreciate as still what you highlighted I think is written for sikha that they are made to serve humanity and it is way of life so a way of life can have some rules or you think that way of life doesnot need any rules . I might be missing the point you are making so please explain me again

You gave very excellent example of doctor and and his prfession
In case of these are ( white coat and stethoscope ) are like external form by which you recognize him (it easy to spot a doctor with these forms)

now being a sikh without becoming khalsa could be compared to man who reads medical books without joing the medical college ( they are available in the market !!) as we get the this white coat on the very first day in medical college and all the five years we taught how to keep up with them and there is sense of responsibilty that one feel while studying in the medical college so your example goes well with me as well
as one can read medical books and become even more learned then medical students but he can never be a doctor
well i agree that there might be some who join the medical school and then they drop out due to poor performance ( this do happen in medical colleges!) and then they start claiming to be doctor obviously this is wrong but does this mean that we should assume that there is no sense of joining the medical college altogether

If external form is more important than the Internal Form , Then to be a doctor , what a person should do is , just buy a doctors apparel , a Stethoscope and some doctors tool and start practising............

So i would say no external form is not more or less important but the starting point of living gurus way of life because this is how Dasam Pitah ji lived

Guru Gobind Singh Ji , was really a True Guru with great Vision , and he knew that what is going to happen in the future .........

It can be just imagined !

What would have happend had he not stopped the Guru System in the human Form ?

Other wise , there would have been a strong fight over being the Next Guru ........................ ,

And the eruption and mushrooming of Babas and Sants would have cause much damage , Every one could have claimed to be the next Guru .........

I could not relate your above qoute with topic may i missing the point so kindly explain in more details



Dear kds1980 ji


As said above whenI make some point in forum that is just learn more from othrs input and put my view in right shape

Thanks for your reply

the biggest example is bhai
nand lal .bhai nand lal was a sikh wrote rehatnamas but he didn't took amrit
himself

well as i know this is misconception that Bhai Nand Lal JI was not amritdhari butinstaed they never changed their name wel this could be topic of further research but i will share the source of refernce abouthe point at the end of post

now about your point of teaching of guru granth sahib is for everyone i disagree .it is only for sikhs.any person who beleives guru granth sahib its liviing guru is sikh.please tell how can a muslim
or christian follow guru granth sahib when they don't beleive in reincarnation while guru granth sahib clearly says that all your sufferings are due to your past lives karmas.similarly how can a orthodox hindu follows a guru granth sahib when guru granth sahib condemns idol worship.those who beleives in guru granth sahibs teaching are sikhs.

well Singh ji when I said so I meant that Guru Granth Sahib is source of universal message to man kind now if it contradict there previous belief than obviously it is upto them to believe it or not but it dies not change the universal nature of message just to add that in Guru Granth Sahib Gur ji talk about various practices of muslims , hindus , jains and advise them as well so it shows how guruji intend to guide people of various faith

now taking a example about the issue of Earth being round both Bible and Koran contradicts it but now this leaves a no choice with follwers of the respective faith either to believe the facts or just carry on with their usual bissuness but it does not change the truth

About the idol Worship it si prohibited in Vedas ( Great scripture of hindus) and you can confirm this from many independent Hindu sources so you can say that Hindu themselves are not follwing there religion in proper way

now i will share with you the source i mentioned earlier and it very clearly disscuss this issue

​

SAHAJDHARI SIKHS AND KHALSA​

By: Kuldeep Singh, Toledo, Ohio​

Ex President World Sikh Council – America Region​

​

ABSTRACT​

Right from the times of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, the procedure to become a Sikh was to get the Pahul from the Guru and follow the instructions given to them by the Guru. Any member of the congregation (Sangat) who wished to lead a Sikh way of life was free to do so. There were, however, many other members in the Sangat, who were desirous to become a Sikh, but needed more time to fulfill their commitment as a Sikh. Such people were known as "Sahajdhari Sikhs" or "Slow adopters". Many of them paid more attention to the religion in which they were born and ignored some of the fundamental principles of Sikhism. In 1699, when Guru Gobind Singh Ji changed the traditional method of giving ‘Pahul’ into ‘Khandey di Pahul’, he told all the members of the Sangat (Congregation) to adopt this way, if they wish to become part of the new Sangat - Khalsa. Those who followed the instinct of their own mind and ignored this order of the Guru failed to become part of this order.
Introduction:
Every Religion in this world has one way or the other to initiate or baptize a person, in order to bring him into its fold. In sikhism the baptizing ceremony is called ‘Amrit Chakna’. After being initiated in this ceremony, he is known by the name of Khalsa, and it is said that, he has joined the Khalsa Panth. The collective body of Sikhism is the Khalsa Panth, which is taken to be as the physical body of the Guru, the True Teacher Enlightner. Every Sikh is supposed to be initiated into this fold at a convenient period of his lifetime, when he has practiced enough Sikhism, from the spiritual aspect as well as by servicing the humanity in the name of the Guru. Those Sikhs, who believe in the teachings of Guru Nanak, and follow many commitments of the Sikh way of life, yet they do not keep hair, (which is the first condition in Sikhism); these people are called the Sahajdhari Sikhs.
The purpose of this article is to clarify the misconception that a Sahajdhari Sikh is the one who "practices Sahaj", for achieving "Sahaj Avastha", and by virtue of this practice, he is called as "Sahaj-dhari". This is a misconception. The word "Sahaj", conveys two different meanings; when used as "Sahaj" for the state of mind and "Sahaj" when used as paces of movement. In later case, a suitable example is: "Sahaj pake so mittha hoi, meaning "Slow and steady wins the race".Here meaning of "Sahaj", is with the pace of time. When it is used as the state of mind, it is known as the "Sahaj Avastha", according to the nomenclature of Gurbani. The result of practicing Sahaj is supposed to be the attainment of a state of tranquility of mind. The word "Sahaj" comes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib a number of times. It is a stage that can be achieved by devotedly practicing "Vaheguru-Akalpurakh’s Naam". However, this "Sahaj" of mental faculty is different from the word "Sahaj", indicating the pace of time, which is a mere action, in a span of time. When we say "sahjey sahjey", we mean slowly, and slowly. Therefore, the word "Sahaj" of the complex word "Sahajdhari" is a word, derived from this "Sahaj" of pace of time, which means slowly, and "dhari" means to adopt. Therefore, Sahajdhari Sikh means a slow adopter of Sikhism and has no connection whatsoever with the ‘Sahaj Avastha’ - A stage of unaffectedness or equipoise or tranquility of mind. Therefore to say, that a Sikh who practices Sikhism to achieve Sahaj Avastha, is called a "Sahajdhari Sikh": Is, absolutely Wrong.



Pahul and Khalsa:
During the history of Sikh Gurus, all the Gurus initiated those members of the congregation (Sangat), who expressed a desire to become his Sikh by blessing them with the Pahul (baptizing water). Such Sikhs were called as Guru’s own or the Khalsa because they accepted Guru’s way. That is why they were referred to as Khalsa in the various Hukamnamas not only of Guru Gobind Singh ji but also of Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Teghbahadur Sahib ji. Guru’s Sangat, however, remained of those people who belonged to various religions. In 1699 Guru Gobind Singh ji handed over this Pahul giving authority to the Panj Pyaras and changed the "Pahul" into "Khandey di Pahul". The Guru addressed the people who took " Khandey di Pahul" as "Vaheguru Ji ka Khalsa". Kavi Sainapat, who wrote Sri Gur Sobha Granth only two years after the great Amrit ceremony (ie. in 1701) defined the Khalsa thus:

" Manega Hukam so to hovega sikh sahi, ​

na manega Hukam so to hovega bihalsa.​

Paanch kee kusangat tuj, Sangat saun preet karey,​

dya aur dharam dhaar, tyagey subh laalsa.​

Hukka na peevaiy, sees dahrhi na mundavey,​

so to Vaheguru,Vaheguru,Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa || 31||147||​

" mwnygw hukm so qo hovygw is`K shI, n mwnygw hukm so qo hovygw ibhwlsw [​

pWc kI kusNgiq qij sNgiq so pRIq kry, dXw Aor Drm Dwir iqAwgy sb lwlsw [​

hu~kw nw pIvy, sIs dwhVI nw muNfwvY, so qo vwgurU vwgurU vwgurU jI kw Kwlsw ] 31 ] 147 ] "​

Sahajdhari Sikhs and Khalsa Page 1 of 2
" The one who will obey Guru’s order will be a Sikh in true sense, whereas a disobedient person will have nothing to do with the Guru. Those, who will leave the bad company of the five vices, attach themselves to the Sangat (Congregation), adopt a life of devotion to duty and mercy and get rid of greed. Those, who will not use Hukka (Tobacco) and do not shave the hair of head or beard, are the Khalsa of Vaheguru in true sense."
Another important observation came from Bhai Gurdass II in his famous writing:

" Peeo pahul khand-dhaar hoeay janum suhela,​

Gur Sangat keeni khalsa, manmukhi duhela….."​

" pIE pwhul KNfDwr, hoie jnm suhylw [ gur sNgiq kInI Kwlsw, mnmuKI duhylw [ ​

vwhu vwhu goibNd isNG, Awpy gur cylw ] 1 ] "​

" Guru told everybody to take Khandey di Paul in order to be successful in your life. Thus a congregation (Sangat) of Khalsa was created and all those who adopted their own ways by following the instinct of their own mind (Manmukh) were not made part of this Sangat. Oh Guru Gobind Singh, You are great "
The congregation (Sangat), however, remained to consist of both Amritdhari, Sahajdhari as well as of those who did not belong to either of these two categories. There were many Sikhs who kept their old last names like ‘Ram’, ‘Lal’, ‘Dass’, ‘Rai’ etc. instead of ‘Singh’ although they all had taken ‘Pahul’ from the Gurus. An important example is that of Baba Dayal founder of Nirankari movement, who made innumerable reforms in nineteenth century. Therefore, it is wrong to say that all those who did not have the last name as ‘Singh’ were all Sahajdharis. Some say that the 52 poets of Guru Gobind Singh Ji were mostly Sahajdharis without giving any substantiation. Bhai Nand Lal ji was one of his most favourite poets, and has the credit of writing a ‘Rehat Naama’, but he never changed his name to Nand Singh. It is essential to know the history of Guru’s Kavi Darbar(a subject of further research). However, with the knowledge of the available history, it can be assumed that this Kavi Darbar must have double purpose. One to create an interfaith literature in order to improve knowledge about other faiths. Secondly to accommodate many poets who were not allowed writing and/or singing their own poetry. Therefore these poets belonged not only to Sikh religion but also to other religions as well. It was not unusual in those days to have Marasis who were experts in Ragas to sing Gurbani and do Kirtan in Guru Darbar. It was, therefore, left to the Guru Khalsa Panth to reform this in the 21st century and allow only Amritdharis to recite Kirtan, and conduct other affairs in the Gurdwaras. The reason for giving control to the Sahajdharis during Moghul period was because, the Sikhs were not even allowed to come in the cities. The imperial orders were to kill the Sikhs wherever they were found.

" Nanak prastan raa har kuja ki biyabund bkatal rasanad. "​

" nwnk pRsqW rw hr kujw ic ibAwbNd bkql rswnd ] "​

Indeed they played a very important role during those days because the enemy hunted the Khalsa from place to place and it was extremely difficult for them to look after their places of worship – the Gurdwaras. By the beginning of nineteenth century these Sahajdhari Sikhs became Mahant and have started robbing the wealth of our institutions by keeping all the funds collected for their personal use and attracting Hindu visitors to the Gurdwaras by keeping Hindu deities in the Gurdwaras. These anti Sikh rituals had forced the Khalsa to start a Singh Sabha movement and run our Gurdwaras in a Sikh-like way. The Khalsa wanted to create a Sikh Code of Conduct because all the available Rehatnamas were corrupted with lot of Manmat. A typical example is the Rehatnama of Chaupa Singh Chibber who advocated a preferential treatment to a Brahmin converted to Sikhism and calls a Sikh "Tankhaya", who suggests his wife to take Amrit. Similar amendments are needed in the historical documents produced by people like Kesar Singh Chhiber and Kavi Santokh Singh.
Therefore, in the light of above discussion, it can be presumed that the Sahajdhari Sikh from the time of the Gurus were always welcomed in the congregation (sangat), to earn a time for complete transformation of his mind towards the Guru’s teaching, and finally to get baptized into the fold of Khalsa, the brotherhood, at an earliest opportunity.
Sahajdhari Sikhs and Khalsa Page 2 of 2

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Jatinder Singh​

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[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Perhaps if respected devinesanative has not understood the message of Das and found contradiction over therre then it fault of das that he could not present his case well to devinesanative so thatdevinesanative cuold understand it.

There are tow things.

who is Patit or Aposatate ie

A person who cuts hair/shaves,commits adultory,Kill female child,Eat Halal or Tobacco or apply Hinna.

That is a rule of Gurmat and proven by both Archelogy(old Books still there )and Historic accounts.

It was rulke for Sikhs in general but some liniacy was givne to Nirmalas,Udasis or Seva Panthis as they were providing preaching and intelligence to Singhs.They were like PRO for Sikhs in Hindus,yogis and Muslim respectivly.

There can be many yes and nos about the logic of it.But Das finds no scripture as yet which state that a Khalsa who takes Sikhi(Can be Baptism) but can not follow it due to personal limitation still can be called Khalsa.

Well if there is some child who gets baptism when he/she was unable to decide about self thasn that persoan can not be called patit nor person with hairs yet to be initiated into Panth.

But a person who bets into Khalsa Brotherhood while being in senses and latter does not follow the code of conduct can not be called the Khalsa and thense being fallen(Patit or Patansheel) from Panth is termed As Patit.

devinesanative quoted from Guru Granth Sahib Ji that Love is the essance but this thing we get from Guru and do follow the same in mind and action.

If Guru tells us to love as devinesanative mentioned we do it as it suits us but when Guru ask us to keep some uniform then we become selactive to our ease.So this itself is not following Guru in full.

As per Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth Khalsa is equated with incarnation of Akal in evil Age of Kaliyuga in the form of collective group.

Like former incarnations Rama or Krishna had differnt appearance and diiferant act then rest of the world so we have some differnt workd to be done.Our hair style or disticnt colour need to be suprressed by Beared and Turban and we must look like the same and that also in mind.

Know das hopes that her/his thing regarding Patit contrqavewrcy is over and it does not mean that new defination that tourch bearer of truth or guide be called patit(literally means fallen).

Say if some Amritdhari does adultary or kill feamle child but does not tell but that ius also patit.So Shaving men only becomes visibley fallen while others can be with some other deeds also.

Das hope that is clear.


The other question which was to be adressed was weather to allow patits in Gurudwaras or allow them to marry(By anand Karaj or not) or not.

Das already stated this that if they are banned then there is chance of them or thier generations slipping into other faiths.We can give them a chance to reconvert when ever they want or let thier childern be converted.Das wrote the same in first post of him in this topic.

It need to be claered.

1. Patit is no longer Khalsa.
2. Patit inspite of that can be allowed to visit Gurudwara,Can have Sikh rites if want but like hindu or Muslims are treated eqauly as per Sikhs in Gurudwara in the same light Patit can be treated.By this we give Patit another chance to attian Khalsahood.


As per the knwoledge of das Akal is in all and all can get salvation.Peryhaps patit can get salvation by other way or Patit is not fit to be Khalsa or person who is one with Akal with no individual brain left.

Like all Khalsa have same form as of Guru(no indivudual appearance) so does soul of All Khalsa attains same form of Gurubar Akal with no individual ego of mind.

Das can call patits to rejoin Khalsa if they can but das can say that as per the code followed in Sanatan or orthodox Sikhs mostly out of punjab(But for Taksal,Rara Sahib etc.) act of Khalsa to let patit know that he/she is not one of us is nothing but our encouregement socillay to him or her to rejoin us.

No one one in world can take from us our way to preach our faith to other.

Tankhaya(Even Guru underwent this ) or Patit atre nothing but our way to let world knwo that how we are unique and we do not follow nonesense.

As Luthra Sahib said that there are mnay Gurudwaras all over where patits or Mona are in management.das can say that still there are many Gurudwaras where we have Kesdhari Patits more wioth the pseudo Akalis of today.

Yet there are mnay Gurudwaras run by Khalsa and Sahijdharis(From Hindus or Muslims) But they are termed as Brahmanical.Das can say that election and mony power has cruppted mainstream often due to its origeon in protestants as many(not all) of thenm are also currpt.

Like not wearing jeweelary or make up female is not the form of real or ture Sikhism but was incorprated from protestant Christians.

Das again request devinesanative to understand what das is saying or if he/she can stillnot understand then das will be happy to breach his keyborad for hour or so to satisfy her/his curiosity.

Das can say that due to his removal of Janeu or Yagypaveet and eating beef Das can be termed as Patit as far as his being Hindu but Das is Sikhs.

Personal views of Das are that a person who cuts his hairs and worship the picture or Gurus or worship Holy book like an idol can be otherwise termed as Nanakpanthi Hindu but then too he/she is patit.

If Patit converts to otehr faith then he/she can be Hindu,Muslim or Christian or say athist.

Last thing Das want to put for Guru Granth Sahib Ji Pureist looby that more and more will they try to prove writing of Dasham Granth Sahib Ji and Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji as brahminical assault more and more people will give justification of leaveing Khalsahood by quoting Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru Granth Sahib Ji are made for all human beings and many writers of that may not be Khalsa.

But other two Granths arew made for Khalsa and by Khalsa. Gurubani says Hundreds of cleverness or logic be there but one does not do along side(logic hinders faith if relyed upon it by totality)

 

[harpreet kaur]

sat sri akal
it is fanticisim like this that puts sikhisim two steps back when it takes one step forward, what will they do next, put a ban on the entrance of anyone who is a mona sikh? no doublt i agree if u are a sikh, and are not embarassed to flaunt your sikhi, then do it all the way, but if u have douts, then why trim and live a lie, get over it, do some soul searching and figure it out once and for all if u are strong enough to be one, thats who a sikh is, an epitome of strength, discipline, honor and virtues with some compassion thrown in, no room for doubts in your beliefs, but does that also mean u must reduce yourself to a level lower than that of islamic fundamentalists who believe anyone outside their religion is a {censored}, a disbeliever, we are targeting our own, look at this situation from the eyes of a three year old and the knowledge of a 70 year old, havent we learnt anything from our past mistakes. there are sikh youth out there who are lost and they need a compassionate hand to guide them not push them away, a little love and compassion can go a long way.