Sikh Girls: A Confused Lot. Are Parents To Blame?

[kds1980]

But I do defend the idea that it is okay to date Muslims

dear amandeep

please read the case of SS0606 in her own words on the following link
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ggressive-conversion-targetted-by-cops-2.html

now after reading it do you still thinks that it is okay for sikh girls to date with muslims.

 

[Amandeep Kaur]

dear amandeep

please read the case of SS0606 in her own words on the following link
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ggressive-conversion-targetted-by-cops-2.html

now after reading it do you still thinks that it is okay for sikh girls to date with muslims.

Yes. These men are not all of the Muslims that exist. Not all Muslims are crooked. It may be that many of them are, but women in general should seek to be careful about who they pick. Women should be aware of dangers. But people should always judge people as individuals, not as members of a group which may contain unsavory characters.

Those people were brainwashed to think it is okay to hurt other people. They think it is okay because they have some uniform bad image of what other people are all like. We cannot allow ourselves to take up this same practice. We cannot allow ourselves to also apply sweeping evil judgements to people that are not based upon their own personal characteristics and actions. Otherwise we will one day be those evil people who think it is okay to hurt other people. We will be those people who think they already know a person's worth, and evaluate people as worth hurting, killing, and throwing away.

And as SS0606 notes, the motivation of these guys is as Pakistanis against Indians more than as Muslims. This all dates back to the terrible events surrounding the partition. If we cannot let go of our blind judgements and hatred, we will all continue to allow the murder of the partition to continue into present day. We cannot make them let go of their blind judgements and hatred, but we can let go of ours. And perhaps on their side, there is someone making the same arguments as me. If hurting each other is to stop, one group must stop first.

No doubt, they are punishing innocent Indians because of some percieved injustice done to them or people they identify with by some unrelated group of Indians, perhaps even many years ago. We cannot allow ourselves to allow the injustices done to us or people we identify with by a group of Muslims/Pakistanis dictate our treatment and interactions with all Muslims/Pakistanis or we will be making the same mistake.

Obviously you should date people that are trying to hurt you. But it is possible that not every single Muslim or Pakistani is out to get Indians or Sikhs. And here, it isn't so much that you shouldn't date Muslims as you shouldn't date crazy abusive people in general, who are abusive for any reason, personal or through external motivation.

 

[kds1980]

It may be that many of them are, but women in general should seek to be careful about who they pick. Women should be aware of dangers. But people should always judge people as individuals, not as members of a group which may contain unsavory characters.

but tell me is it always possible to judge people rightly.what if they are just
pretending to be nice and only after running away with him a girl realises what a person really is.if there is a road on which many robbers live and people warn me not to go by that road and i just ignore them and the robbers just rob me on that road then i will be responsible for my action and the people that warn me have every right to mock me.

as far as good muslims are concerned i want to know where are they?
why are they not stopping these muslims from doing these things is it not their duty to stop these muslims.

 

[Amandeep Kaur]

but tell me is it always possible to judge people rightly.what if they are just
pretending to be nice and only after running away with him a girl realises what a person really is.if there is a road on which many robbers live and people warn me not to go by that road and i just ignore them and the robbers just rob me on that road then i will be responsible for my action and the people that warn me have every right to mock me.

as far as good muslims are concerned i want to know where are they?
why are they not stopping these muslims from doing these things is it not their duty to stop these muslims.

Why must she run away with him? Why must she leave her family, cut herself off, and make herself vulnerable and unsupported? Did her family disown her? Did they tell her she would be on her own if she made that decision? Why would they do that?

I don't think all muslims live on the same road. I think that racist pigs who believe it is okay to abusive people different from themselves all live on the same road, so to speak.

Speaking literally, if everyone who lives in the neighborhood that you don't want to drive through is green, that doesn't mean that all green people are criminals and that any street that has a green person living on it is a bad one. The metaphorical implication I'm making is that just because there are bad Muslims does not mean that all Muslims are bad or support the actions of the ones that are.

What can good muslims do besides try to reason with and educate these others? Tie their hands?

In the US, interracial and interreligious relationships are not such a problem. So can it truly be said just to be the quality of a bad or inferior race or religion? Or is it just that these particular members of that race or religion have been taught hatred?

 

[kds1980]

Why must she run away with him? Why must she leave her family? Did her family disown her? Did they tell her she would be on her own if she made that decision? Why would they do that?

running was just an example.what if she realises after marriage what the person really is or what is his true intention.

What can good muslims do besides try to reason with and educate these others? Tie their hands?

good muslims can reason with them.good muslims can warn non muslims
about the intention of bad muslims.good muslims can support non muslim
against bad muslims.good muslims can also raise there voice against imams
which are provoking these muslims but unfortunately they are not doing it.

as i earlier said its better not to go by that road where robbers live.

 

[dalsingh]

I don't defend hurting yourself. But I do defend the idea that it is okay to date Muslims or other people that are not Sikh.

Amandeep

You are full of bull. You might be happy with your daughter going out with a muslim man, don't go around telling the rest of us that it is a good idea or some form of "progressive" behaviour.

It is certainly not a feminist thought to think that men are responsible for the choices of women. And the feminism I espoused was only in the form that I did not like phrases you used specifically designed to rest on unfair and wrong stereotypes of women to make them look like they are weak willed and stupid.

Are you really that simple?????? I'm saying that girls that sell out and help destroy their own heritage and give people who harbour ill will against us victories are idiots! Not the true strong willed, loyal, progressive Sikh sisters, of who I have met many! Anyway from where I'm standing your western feminism is mainly based on being a facsimile of men which smacks of major insecurity in female identity in itself.

 

[kds1980]

Those people were brainwashed to think it is okay to hurt other people. They think it is okay because they have some uniform bad image of what other people are all like. We cannot allow ourselves to take up this same practice. We cannot allow ourselves to also apply sweeping evil judgements to people that are not based upon their own personal characteristics and actions. Otherwise we will one day be those evil people who think it is okay to hurt other people. We will be those people who think they already know a person's worth, and evaluate people as worth hurting, killing, and throwing away

dear amandeep

tell me who is saying here that we should hurt.do you want to say that by asking sikh girls not to date muslim men are we hurting them?

And as SS0606 notes, the motivation of these guys is as Pakistanis against Indians more than as Muslims. This all dates back to the terrible events surrounding the partition. If we cannot let go of our blind judgements and hatred, we will all continue to allow the murder of the partition to continue into present day. We cannot make them let go of their blind judgements and hatred, but we can let go of ours. And perhaps on their side, there is someone making the same arguments as me. If hurting each other is to stop, one group must stop first.

if the motivation of these guys are taking revenge against indians then why are they asking girls to convert to islam.does conversion to islam mean that
these girls will become pakistani?

Speaking literally, if everyone who lives in the neighborhood that you don't want to drive through is green, that doesn't mean that all green people are criminals and that any street that has a green person living on it is a bad one. The metaphorical implication I'm making is that just because there are bad Muslims does not mean that all Muslims are bad or support the actions of the ones that are.

speaking through your metaphor if green people in our neighbourhood are criminal then all sensible people will ask their children to stay away from them even if some are good.

 

[kds1980]

Obviously you should date people that are trying to hurt you. But it is possible that not every single Muslim or Pakistani is out to get Indians or Sikhs. And here, it isn't so much that you shouldn't date Muslims as you shouldn't date crazy abusive people in general, who are abusive for any reason, personal or through external motivation.

you have not answered my question is it so easy to judge persons.obviously those muslims that are trapping sikh girls will pretend to be nice.do you think
they will straight forward say that i am an abuser.obviusly not all muslims are bad or abusers but even if 50% are bad then the all the muslims should be avoided.after all its matter of whole life.

i also like to show you what SS0606 said

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ggressive-conversion-targetted-by-cops-2.html
I've seen a lot of my friends (Sikh and Hindu) get into fights with Muslim boys and they're not small fights, i've seen my own brother have a hammer struck to his head 4 times, and as sad as it sounds, my friends did nothing but back down. We can bad mouth Muslims as much as we want but the fact is that the Muslim community (especially Pakistani Muslims) are a well bonded community. If one is in trouble they multiply by hundreds. So once again i'm stressing we need to work TOGETHER and help eachother.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from the above its quite clear that majority of muslims are supporting bad muslims.

 

[badmash]

You know, one reads all this stuff and it makes me glad there are still many paindoo, backward, semi literate sikhs out there. At least some of them are comfortable with who they are and where they come from, whilst not knowing too much about either. BUT, at least, they do not walk into the jaws of assimilation with inane arguments. This will be the make or break generation of sikhs. The point has come where one either is interested in a collective effort to educate young sikhs, conduct research on historical and religious issues, and be true to the history of the community or if one just says, you know, what the hell, it really does not matter anyway. Because if left to Sikhs in India, Sikhism is lost anyway.

 

[kds1980]

dear amandeep

i also like to know from why do you think that it is o.k. for sikh girls to date with muslims.there are 2 types of dating

1)lustful dating
this type of dating is just for fun and sikhism is against it.we should control our sexual desire.

2)dating for searching life partner

there is nothing wrong in it.but why should a sikh girl search muslim life
partner.why not search life partner to whom you share common religious beleif.even dating with a good muslim will eventually take that sikh girl to islam.

so both types of dating cannot be justified from sikh point of view.

 

[dalsingh]

Badmash said: You know, one reads all this stuff and it makes me glad there are still many paindoo, backward, semi literate sikhs out there. At least some of them are comfortable with who they are and where they come from, whilst not knowing too much about either. BUT, at least, they do not walk into the jaws of assimilation with inane arguments.

I hear what your saying! Thankfully the paindoos that have been coming here from backhome in the last few years are a bit clued up and many can knock out a few teeth when required so things are looking up.

It is true that many of those that are "eduacted" and consider themselves to be progressive are the first to jump on the assimilation bandwagon and give body blows to the community with their "liberal" outlooks.

 

[Amandeep Kaur]

dear amandeep

tell me who is saying here that we should hurt.do you want to say that by asking sikh girls not to date muslim men are we hurting them?

No. I don't believe it hurts sikh girls to tell them to stay away from muslim men. I only meant that making sweeping prejudgements about huge groups of people based on the actions of a few individuals leads us eventually to thinking it is okay to hurt anyone associated with that group and that we have to be careful not to start saying things and thinking things like "All Muslims are evil and deserve to suffer and die." The only reason I got involved in this discussion is because dalsingh made a comment based on the assumption that trusting someone Muslim is always stupid.

if the motivation of these guys are taking revenge against indians then why are they asking girls to convert to islam.does conversion to islam mean that
these girls will become pakistani?

As referenced in the article, money.

speaking through your metaphor if green people in our neighbourhood are criminal then all sensible people will ask their children to stay away from them even if some are good.

I understand that argument and do not even argue against it. What I argue against is making sweeping characterizations about all Muslims and saying that anyone dating any Muslim is betraying herself and her heritage. I also argue against casting away daughters who make bad choices and leaving them to fend for themselves. dalsingh's idea that we should all comment on how a poor girl only "got what she deserved" is the wrong attitude to take on someone who has been wronged. We shouldn't ridicule and further hurt people who have been hurt.

My only point is that we cannot give up the belief entirely that it is possible for there to be good people out there.


Thank you for addressing me kindly.

 

[Amandeep Kaur]

I hear what your saying! Thankfully the paindoos that have been coming here from backhome in the last few years are a bit clued up and many can knock out a few teeth when required so things are looking up.

It is true that many of those that are "eduacted" and consider themselves to be progressive are the first to jump on the assimilation bandwagon and give body blows to the community with their "liberal" outlooks.

Is it impossible that someone who disagrees with you is also educated? You do not know who I am or what choices I make. Perhaps we should just stick to speaking about each others views instead of positing things about each other's personal characters.

And I apologize also for making some angry and aggressive comments myself.

 

[Amandeep Kaur]

Amandeep

You are full of bull. You might be happy with your daughter going out with a muslim man, don't go around telling the rest of us that it is a good idea or some form of "progressive" behaviour.

I'm not saying that going out with a Muslim is progressive behavior. I'm saying that condemning an entire group of people is backwards behavior and explicitly discouraged in Gurbani.

I would not encourage my daughters to put themselves in situations that were more likely to be dangerous ones. Of course, you have to understand that my experience is not like yours and all of these things you are talking about are not concerns I have ever encountered in the States. So I know that there are good Muslims out there and that it is possible for someone to have good relationships with them. I am not trying to be theoretically progressive. I am trying to say that things _could_ be good, even if where you are, they aren't very likely to be. And my reason for making that point is because I believe it is important to keep in mind that everyone is a human being so that we don't become destructive monsters ourselves.

My only point has ever been that we need to be careful not to begin thinking all Muslims are evil. And as a result of that, it is at least remotely possible that not all relationships with them are born of bad intentions. If we say the second, then we mean the first and the only thing I am trying to get across is that that is a dangerous way of thinking.

Anyway from where I'm standing your western feminism is mainly based on being a facsimile of men which smacks of major insecurity in female identity in itself.

Could you please give me an example? I can neither improve nor defend myself without one.

Are you really that simple??????

^ unnecessary

 

[Amandeep Kaur]

dear amandeep

i also like to know from why do you think that it is o.k. for sikh girls to date with muslims.there are 2 types of dating

1)lustful dating
this type of dating is just for fun and sikhism is against it.we should control our sexual desire.

2)dating for searching life partner

there is nothing wrong in it.but why should a sikh girl search muslim life
partner.why not search life partner to whom you share common religious beleif.even dating with a good muslim will eventually take that sikh girl to islam.

so both types of dating cannot be justified from sikh point of view.

I agree that it would be difficult to find a muslim for a life partner who adhered to the tenants to the level of believing that non muslims are lesser people or in need of conversion. And it is true that these are beliefs that are written for muslims to have.

Sikhism does not need to conflict with Islam. It is Islam that conflicts with Sikhism. But there are a few Muslims that do not embrace the beliefs that endorse conflict in Islam. There are some that have genuine respect for people of other faiths, some who see merit in others paths. And in the case of such a person, I do not think that finding life partner is impossible. If two people can meet in mutual love and respect for each other, even coming from different backgrounds, because they have common beliefs about how to treat other people, I don't think that such a relationship is impossible. I saw a muslim man come onto this forum a few days ago and ask genuinely for information about why Sikhs would not like him to marry a Sikh girl. Clearly, he was either mostly secular or a muslim with viewpoints different from those of most muslims. And people just attacked him as someone who couldn't possibly care for her, who would hurt her or leave her or must have had some other bad intentions. I suppose it's possible that he did have bad intentions, though I can't imagine why he would come on here and ask such a question if he did.

As for the first kind of dating, that is somewhat disgusting to me and I don't understand how women can do it without feeling that they are cheapening themselves. Women should value themselves too much to give of themselves so freely as though they were common and only for entertainment. Because that is what they are doing and becoming when they seek only entertainment for themselves.

 

[Amandeep Kaur]

you have not answered my question is it so easy to judge persons.obviously those muslims that are trapping sikh girls will pretend to be nice.do you think
they will straight forward say that i am an abuser.obviusly not all muslims are bad or abusers but even if 50% are bad then the all the muslims should be avoided.after all its matter of whole life.

i also like to show you what SS0606 said

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ggressive-conversion-targetted-by-cops-2.html
I've seen a lot of my friends (Sikh and Hindu) get into fights with Muslim boys and they're not small fights, i've seen my own brother have a hammer struck to his head 4 times, and as sad as it sounds, my friends did nothing but back down. We can bad mouth Muslims as much as we want but the fact is that the Muslim community (especially Pakistani Muslims) are a well bonded community. If one is in trouble they multiply by hundreds. So once again i'm stressing we need to work TOGETHER and help eachother.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from the above its quite clear that majority of muslims are supporting bad muslims.

I am very sorry to hear that. I cannot imagine watching that happen to my brother. It is very dissimilar from my experience living in the States.

 

[kds1980]

No. I don't believe it hurts sikh girls to tell them to stay away from muslim men. I only meant that making sweeping prejudgements about huge groups of people based on the actions of a few individuals leads us eventually to thinking it is okay to hurt anyone associated with that group and that we have to be careful not to start saying things and thinking things like "All Muslims are evil and deserve to suffer and die." The only reason I got involved in this discussion is because dalsingh made a comment based on the assumption that trusting someone Muslim is always stupid.

dear amandeep

nobody is saying here that all muslims are evil.nobody is saying here that
muslims should die or suffer.but please don't turn blind eye what is really happening.here is the one of survey about muslims.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
More young Muslims back sharia, says poll | Special Reports | Guardian Unlimited Politics

In the survey of 1,003 Muslims by the polling company Populus through internet and telephone questionnaires, nearly 60% said they would prefer to live under British law, while 37% of 16 to 24-year-olds said they would prefer sharia law, against 17% of those over 55. Eighty-six per cent said their religion was the most important thing in their lives.

Article continues

Nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed, while less than a fifth of those over 55 believed the same. The survey claimed that British authorities and some Muslim groups have exaggerated the problem of Islamophobia and fuelled a sense of victimhood among some Muslims: 84% said they believed they had been well treated in British society, though only 28% thought the authorities had gone over the top in trying not to offend Muslims. Munira Mirza, a doctoral student at Kent University who wrote the report, said: "The government should engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identity."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
one should not turn blind eye what is really happening.

As referenced in the article, money.

and from where this money is coming.obviously from higher islamic authorities.
so islam is also responsible.

I understand that argument and do not even argue against it. What I argue against is making sweeping characterizations about all Muslims and saying that anyone dating any Muslim is betraying herself and her heritage. I also argue against casting away daughters who make bad choices and leaving them to fend for themselves. dalsingh's idea that we should all comment on how a poor girl only "got what she deserved" is the wrong attitude to take on someone who has been wronged. We shouldn't ridicule and further hurt people who have been hurt.

My only point is that we cannot give up the belief entirely that it is possible for there to be good people out there.

honestly speaking if a sikh girl is dating a muslim then she is betraying her religion.in 99.99% cases a sikh girl has to convert to islam.so when you know that the result of this relationship is leaving your religion then on what basis are you saying that the girl is not betraying her religion.similarly if a sikh boy is dating a non sikh and he knows that in order to marry her he has to leave his religion then he too is betraying his religion.

And yes there are good muslims but there is very narrow chance you realise that what a person really is.so its better to avoid all of them.please understand its a very serious matter it could ruin the girl's whole life.

as far as girls that actually commited mistakes are concerned i am not going to write bad things about them but i am not going to stop others.and i agree that we should not leave them we should accept them back.

 

[GURVINDER]

In The Above Articles It Was Written That Many Boys And Girls Even Dont Know The 5 K's Think About The People's Who Are Doing The Kurat's Even By Taking The Amrit Its The Prime Duty Of Every Parent That They Should Give The Fullflashed Knowledged Of The Great Culture And History Of Sikhism

 

[dalsingh]

Amandeep, I would never want someone in my family remotely near someone like you, especially some young impressionable female. In the end your views just weaken Sikhs and are the root cause of the problem we are having here. That is the bottom line. Most of the girls that have been abused or whisked away to some remote brothel in Pakistan held the same naive views about "no not all of them are bad" that you are repeating. Instead of defending a religion with 50 g'zillion followers (or whatever it is), who should be able to look after themselves, concentrate on your own people. This doesn't mean that you wish any bad will towards others! Being cautious is prerequisite of survival, you seem to throw that very important consideration in the bin. Not to mention teh bad role model Sikh girls who date muslim men give to the younger generation benaeth them.

That is why I feel it is important to highlight the stupidity of girls who choose to do this. In the hope that others can learn and avoid the mistake. NO Sikh girl should be dating a muslim, for a variety of reasons, least of all that it just reinforces the "easy pickup" stereotype.

How many muslim guys are happy with their sisters, daughters dating non-muslims, you ever think about that one?

 

[sikhpreet]

Sat Sri Akal

In my own view I believe that we have some duties towards our culture we are born in.
First of all Those sikh girls who fall in love with muslim guys ever thought of finding a sikh guy. One more thing I would like to share with sikh girls is that please before stepping out of your own culture think that how beautiful your own culture is. Feel proud and blessed of it.

For sure some girls would say that you could be in your own culture even marrying any muslim guy, but the truth is that you cannot. Will you be able to grow your children as Sikh. Think as a mature and responsible girl, One sikh girl going out of culture is one sikh family reducing.

Please have the honor and respect in you( Sikh girls) and also for your family(Culture you are born in).

Please think of those girls who regret dating a muslim boy and spoiling their life. Girls who were forced to convert their “pure” religion to muslim, nothing against anyone, but at least we have responsibility to maintain our own culture.


Sat Sri Akal