Sikh Girls: A Confused Lot. Are Parents To Blame?

[rapkaur]

Recently i have come to realise that many sikh girls like myself face too many personal battles.

I believe i have been bought up in quite a tradtional family. Tradtional being the operative word. I am talking generally now, but so many of the third generation have no clue about Sikhism.

I have many muslim and hindu friends, and they have been taught about their religion by their parents. In any predicament or situation, my muslim friends know what is right and wrong. This is not simply what their parent have told them is right and wrong but because they know from a religious standpoint.

Take for example the case of alcohol. Muslims know that they should not drink, it is wrong in their religion. Wheras myself and many of my Sikh friends and family are simply told girls don't drink. But our brothers and fathers go out drinking and come back drunk. What does this show us.

In Sikh families tradtion meanS that girls have so many more pressures than boys. Take again for example drinking alcohol, boys will go out with their friends and have a good time.If girls do the same thing they are more likely to be ridden with guilt. The words of their parents will echoin their heads. But shouldn't it be the words of Sikhism, that drinking is wrong. Many of hindu friends are know that they shouldn't drink, this is because their parents have taught them it is wrong and have led by example. Some of my hindu frinds do drink, but in each case their parents are aware, and they are encouraged to move away from the habit. Muslim girls are aware that their religion teaches not to drink and they don't.

Think about sikh weddings, it is a religious ceremony. But straight after everybody heads off to the party where there is alcohol galore. So what does that teach us? I simply do not get it. Isn't alcohol against sikhism..why have it on a wedding... a religious union? I understand why Christains have alchocol at weddings.. because it isn't againt Christianity. Mulisms don't need alcohol to celebrate.... so many Sikh men just drink, and show themselves up.

How many Sikh children know what the five K's mean?? I bet less than half the UK population of Sikh Children are aware. How many children know what Vaishaki means? To many it means a fun trip to the mela, and a fun walk with free food. Yes but ask muslim childen about ramadan or why they are fasting and they will tell you.

Many of the Sikhs of my generation are louts. They like the glory of their religion. You will see so many young people supporting khanda but not because they are proud of their relgion but because they look cool!!!

The gurdwara is another thing that grates me. How many young people actually listen. There are mobiles going off, children running around, old ladies bantering and gossiping. Pleas for money. Its like a playground. You don't get that in a mosque or church. People know what they are there for.

I mean why do we have to place money and then bow down when we go to the gurdwara? I don't undertstand. It is a silly concept with no meaning (money not bowing). When we go to the gurdwara to pray, that is what should matter. There is no place for a money box in the gurdwara... i resent bowing infront of it. What is the significace??People should make a contribution elsewhere.

Also in Sikhism thier should be no idols. But why are there so many picturs, and statues? How do we know what Guru Nanak Dev Ji looked like or any of the other gurus. Why do we have picturs of them in the gurdwara? Isn't it against the teachings????

On many occassions Sikh parents let thier sons cut their hair.... but their daughters are expected to keep it long. At a young age, i thought that the only rason girls didn't cut thier hair was becasue it would make them look like ummm 'bad girls!' We wern't actually told that Sikhs aren't supposed to tamper with thier bodies. Even if we were told this i guess we still would have been confused because we would question why does my father or brother have short hair?!!!

Sikhs in this country are confused. I forsee many of my generation moving away from a this religion because we just don't get it!!

hi, i think u are being to harsh in regards to sikhs not knwing anything about their religion. your right in wot u said about there are many who do not no alot and only so certain things because it is cool and go to the gudwara for the wrong reasons.... there are also alot of people, youths in particular these days who are Gursikhs who represent and makes us look up and understand who we are.

i believe it is easier to not believe and do wot and go the way every1 else is going than following sikhism, this is why alot of us aint giving it 100 %. parents i believe are a great influence on their children but at the same time so are the people u associate with... il give u an example, true fact infact which happened in my household....

there is me and my older sister and 2 younger brothers, with mum and dad. we have all been brought up in the standard way i feel, very brief knowledge i feel on our religion but in any case we have always known who we are and about our religion. we've all spoken punjabi at home and gone to the gudwara, not every sunday, its got less as we've got older i think as we've started becoming more independent... hope wot im saying is making sense as im not re-reading it again.....

anyway my sister, me and my brother are merely 11 months apart from 1 another and grew up around the same people and experienced things at the same time.. i.e going out, drinking and the things we shouldnt be doing. it was presure to fit in i suppose but the croud u got into was who determined who u was.... my youngest brother was 4 yrs younger than me and wen he started high school we had all left and my bro noticed he'd come home and go straight to bed or say he had headaches..... being drinking we all knew... my older bro battered him and said your not going down that road so dnt even try... even though he was doing all those things!!!

my little brother started sikh martuarts and thats it, his group of friends changed, he started going to the gudwara, and now i can proudly say he is a gursikh...

he is my idol and i am learnig from him wot i feel i should have taught him. he told me once its the people u hang around with which determine the person u are.... 100% that is true i believe. since i have slowly left them people i called my friends behind, the 1's who were always up for going out and drinking and smoking, my life has more meaning.... i am starting to understand wot i am here for, who i am, wot i wana be, who i wana be and where i wana be... this has been a struggle of a journy and a very hard 1 also .... it has been hard to leave the easy option behind but im happier now i knw i am doing wot is right.....

im not sure if u understood the importance of wot i have said but i feel this is my personal journey and if i can do it any1 can. u can lead a horse to water but cant make it drink it... meaning u have to be ready to change b4 anything can happen.....

 

[rapkaur]

Recently i have come to realise that many sikh girls like myself face too many personal battles.

I believe i have been bought up in quite a tradtional family. Tradtional being the operative word. I am talking generally now, but so many of the third generation have no clue about Sikhism.

I have many muslim and hindu friends, and they have been taught about their religion by their parents. In any predicament or situation, my muslim friends know what is right and wrong. This is not simply what their parent have told them is right and wrong but because they know from a religious standpoint.

Take for example the case of alcohol. Muslims know that they should not drink, it is wrong in their religion. Wheras myself and many of my Sikh friends and family are simply told girls don't drink. But our brothers and fathers go out drinking and come back drunk. What does this show us.

In Sikh families tradtion meanS that girls have so many more pressures than boys. Take again for example drinking alcohol, boys will go out with their friends and have a good time.If girls do the same thing they are more likely to be ridden with guilt. The words of their parents will echoin their heads. But shouldn't it be the words of Sikhism, that drinking is wrong. Many of hindu friends are know that they shouldn't drink, this is because their parents have taught them it is wrong and have led by example. Some of my hindu frinds do drink, but in each case their parents are aware, and they are encouraged to move away from the habit. Muslim girls are aware that their religion teaches not to drink and they don't.

Think about sikh weddings, it is a religious ceremony. But straight after everybody heads off to the party where there is alcohol galore. So what does that teach us? I simply do not get it. Isn't alcohol against sikhism..why have it on a wedding... a religious union? I understand why Christains have alchocol at weddings.. because it isn't againt Christianity. Mulisms don't need alcohol to celebrate.... so many Sikh men just drink, and show themselves up.

How many Sikh children know what the five K's mean?? I bet less than half the UK population of Sikh Children are aware. How many children know what Vaishaki means? To many it means a fun trip to the mela, and a fun walk with free food. Yes but ask muslim childen about ramadan or why they are fasting and they will tell you.

Many of the Sikhs of my generation are louts. They like the glory of their religion. You will see so many young people supporting khanda but not because they are proud of their relgion but because they look cool!!!

The gurdwara is another thing that grates me. How many young people actually listen. There are mobiles going off, children running around, old ladies bantering and gossiping. Pleas for money. Its like a playground. You don't get that in a mosque or church. People know what they are there for.

I mean why do we have to place money and then bow down when we go to the gurdwara? I don't undertstand. It is a silly concept with no meaning (money not bowing). When we go to the gurdwara to pray, that is what should matter. There is no place for a money box in the gurdwara... i resent bowing infront of it. What is the significace??People should make a contribution elsewhere.

Also in Sikhism thier should be no idols. But why are there so many picturs, and statues? How do we know what Guru Nanak Dev Ji looked like or any of the other gurus. Why do we have picturs of them in the gurdwara? Isn't it against the teachings????

On many occassions Sikh parents let thier sons cut their hair.... but their daughters are expected to keep it long. At a young age, i thought that the only rason girls didn't cut thier hair was becasue it would make them look like ummm 'bad girls!' We wern't actually told that Sikhs aren't supposed to tamper with thier bodies. Even if we were told this i guess we still would have been confused because we would question why does my father or brother have short hair?!!!

Sikhs in this country are confused. I forsee many of my generation moving away from a this religion because we just don't get it!!

hi, i think u are being to harsh in regards to sikhs not knwing anything about their religion. your right in wot u said about there are many who do not no alot and only so certain things because it is cool and go to the gudwara for the wrong reasons.... there are also alot of people, youths in particular these days who are Gursikhs who represent and makes us look up and understand who we are.

i believe it is easier to not believe and do wot and go the way every1 else is going than following sikhism, this is why alot of us aint giving it 100 %. parents i believe are a great influence on their children but at the same time so are the people u associate with... il give u an example, true fact infact which happened in my household....

there is me and my older sister and 2 younger brothers, with mum and dad. we have all been brought up in the standard way i feel, very brief knowledge i feel on our religion but in any case we have always known who we are and about our religion. we've all spoken punjabi at home and gone to the gudwara, not every sunday, its got less as we've got older i think as we've started becoming more independent... hope wot im saying is making sense as im not re-reading it again.....

anyway my sister, me and my brother are merely 11 months apart from 1 another and grew up around the same people and experienced things at the same time.. i.e going out, drinking and the things we shouldnt be doing. it was presure to fit in i suppose but the croud u got into was who determined who u was.... my youngest brother was 4 yrs younger than me and wen he started high school we had all left and my bro noticed he'd come home and go straight to bed or say he had headaches..... being drinking we all knew... my older bro battered him and said your not going down that road so dnt even try... even though he was doing all those things!!!

my little brother started sikh martuarts and thats it, his group of friends changed, he started going to the gudwara, and now i can proudly say he is a gursikh...

he is my idol and i am learnig from him wot i feel i should have taught him. he told me once its the people u hang around with which determine the person u are.... 100% that is true i believe. since i have slowly left them people i called my friends behind, the 1's who were always up for going out and drinking and smoking, my life has more meaning.... i am starting to understand wot i am here for, who i am, wot i wana be, who i wana be and where i wana be... this has been a struggle of a journy and a very hard 1 also .... it has been hard to leave the easy option behind but im happier now i knw i am doing wot is right.....

im not sure if u understood the importance of wot i have said but i feel this is my personal journey and if i can do it any1 can. u can lead a horse to water but cant make it drink it... meaning u have to be ready to change b4 anything can happen.....

 

[semicharmed]

I agree with many points raised in your thread. I've come to the realisation now in my late twenties that the best way to overcome all the things that we've been told about our religion that are 'supposedly' true, is to educate yourself. I know it sounds cheese to say it that way but it's true. There are too many double standards in out religion & we tend to get them confused with practices that are 'frowned upon' rather than practices that are not actually against our religion.

Example: to eat meat or not to eat meat? History never said that we can't eat meat prior to being 'baptized' it specifically says that we (sikhs) are not to practice any rituals when it comes to killing an animal, like making the animal suffer in any way that is considered cruelty. It doesn't even specify that we cannot eat certain types of meat either. HOWEVER it does say that once we take AMRIT then we should be conducting ourselves in a certain manner...no meat, do drinking, no this no that...etc....

I'm not sure the age of the person that wrote the original thread but I think that it's important for you to arm yourself with the actual history of our religion and arm yourself with actual facts so that you can challenge your elders that have turned their interpertations of our religion into their own version of what sikhism is.

I fully agree with all the points you raised. Hense why I'm totally turned off by Indian men, all because of the double standard our parents allowed with just the boy girl issues.

semicharmed

 

[gurus_princess]

I am not in the same situation as you but sometimes I think and talk about these things and I understand what your saying.

I'm very lucky to live in an environment where all my relatives do not go against sikhism (I live in Australia) but the people at the gurudwara, the people who go there only go to chat or to get 'free food' and 'look' like a great sikh. BUT what happens if we took the Guru Granth Shaib Ji out of the GURUdwara. What will it become? A mere building.

My point is that people are trying to fit in with the western world and so they give up their kirpan for alcohol. If your parents are not teaching you the right path to become a Gursikh, it is because they are 'weak' or they have not 'seen' or 'felt' the love of the Guru.

If we want to learn about our religion, why not ask our REAL FATHER, GURU GOBIND SINGH JI.:idea: He may not be alive physically but he is vibrating in the air around us and within us. His message and all the other Gurus' message is in the Guru Granth Shib which we have today and it can be accessed anytime of the day. It is open 24/7. All we need to do is be able to read it and understand it. And by understanding it we will automatically practice it.

But I don't know Punjabi?

So, that's what you parents are there for. Ask them to teach you Punjabi so you can understand the Gurus' message. Of course, this will come with hard work and dedication but you cannot attain anything without effort, can't you?

All my relatives and I spend every Friday evening (6pm-8pm) learning Punjabi and our history. It's wonderful because we get to learn as a 'family', the adults teach us and we have 'classes'. The adults also learn because sometimes they forget how to spell and we have a great laugh. (By the way I'm only 15 and my 'class' is aged between 7 and 21!). After the school we get to talk and play, it's a great way of learning and keeping in touch at the same time.
See? You don't even need hard work and dedication if you put in a little effort each week. You can have fun and learn and get peace of mind.

I hope that you will get together with your family and resolve this situation.

P.S. If you drink or do anything against the Sihk Reht Maryada you are not a sikh.:}

 

[MKAUR1981]

P.S. If you drink or do anything against the Sihk Reht Maryada you are not a sikh.:}

This means that half of the population that call themselves a Sikh are not because they are not living according to the Rehat Maryada? So what are we then?

 

[gurus_princess]

This means that half of the population that call themselves a Sikh are not because they are not living according to the Rehat Maryada? So what are we then?

If we are going along the right path and doing our best to follow it (Reht Maryada) then I think we can call ourselves 'seekh'. Get it?

Anyway, if you don't follow the Reht Maryada (or not even trying to) you are not a sikh, simple as that.

 

[MKAUR1981]

WJKK WJKF

Guru's Princess, I think you're contradicting yourself. First you said:

P.S. If you drink or do anything against the Sihk Reht Maryada you are not a sikh.:}

Then you said:

If we are going along the right path and doing our best to follow it (Reht Maryada) then I think we can call ourselves 'seekh'. Get it?

Anyway, if you don't follow the Reht Maryada (or not even trying to) you are not a sikh, simple as that.

I think I "get it". :}{}{}:

 

[vaapaaraa]

This means that half of the population that call themselves a Sikh are not because they are not living according to the Rehat Maryada?

When Guru Gobind Singh ji asked for a head, there were only five who came up, these are the gurmukh khalsa, the very form of Gurbani. You shouldnt be surprised, it is the same situation now.

So what are we then?

manmukh sikh should try to be gurmukh sikh

manmukh sikh follows the mind, likes to do,say,act things that please ownself, even for the sake of others

gurmukh sikh only will do things that will be pleasing to Guru, whether they are hard or easy. its both same.

Follow Gurbani , Not the mind

Guru has given this understanding, through gurbani, we are mere puppets, looking deep within, the one who holds our strings, is also the same one holding the strings of other puppet. As we are given understanding so do we speak.

 

[gurus_princess]

MKAUR1981

How am I contradicting myself?
I don't understand what you mean.

In both posts I wrote that if you do not follow the Reht Maryada, you are not a Sikh.

Some people are actually trying to follow the religion and others aren't. The people who are, are well on their way to becoming a Sikh.

What do you think about the Reht Maryada and becoming a Sikh? I'm interested to hear from anyone and everyone. I'm all ears.

 

[vaapaaraa]

you are right,I have always known sikh to be a very high state.

Just as the hukam of Guru is eternally directing everything, from the thoughts of a small ant, to universes upon universes, all is under hukam.

manmukh slowly realizing this, leaves "I" through gurbani and grace of Guru, becomes gurmukh.

What is left? Just oneness

There is no you or me, but just awareness of supreme power of hukam, bliss and eternity.

 

[vaapaaraa]

manmukh slowly realizing this, leaves "I" through gurbani and grace of Guru, becomes gurmukh.

It is not in the power of anyone to leave "I", the one who separated, himself absorbs back as well.

Be in love with the one and only one, no one else is anyones companion.

 

[MKAUR1981]

WJKK WJKF

Guru's Princess

Sorry, but in your first post your wrote if you do anything against the Rehat Marayada then you are not a Sikh, then in your second post you added "or if you are trying to follow it".

I just find that there are those who call themselves a Sikh, but do not follow the Rehat Maryada fully i.e cut their hair. On the other hand there are those who have taken Amrit (who do not cut their hair) but have not absorbed any of the teachings/goodness from the Guru Granth Sahib.

Sorry if this offends anyone, but why do some Amritdhari's believe they are a cut above the rest?

We all grow up in different circumstances, culture and environment and maybe this affects how we "practice" Sikhism and how much of the Rehat Maryada we follow. (Religion wasn't important to me fews years back. Drinking and drugs were). Maybe some people are still waiting for that "enlightenment".

I agree with you on that if your are at least trying to follow the Rehat Maryada then you are a Sikh, but disagree when you said if you do anything against it. I'm a Sikh, a learner. Each day I'm learning more.

Sorry if I said anything wrong.

 

[gurus_princess]

WJKK WJKF

MKAUR1981

Now I understand what you mean. Thank you.

Not everyone follows the religion and I myself do not follow everything written in the Reht Maryada, as you said 'I'm a Sikh, a learner. Each day I'm learning more.' I totally agree with that.

I just find that there are those who call themselves a Sikh, but do not follow the Rehat Maryada fully i.e cut their hair. On the other hand there are those who have taken Amrit (who do not cut their hair) but have not absorbed any of the teachings/goodness from the Guru Granth Sahib.

I agree with what you said.
I now believe that people should follow the Reht Maryada to the best of their abilty, both physically and mentally.

I also agree with what you said below.

We all grow up in different circumstances, culture and environment and maybe this affects how we "practice" Sikhism and how much of the Reht Maryada we follow. (Religion wasn't important to me fews years back. Drinking and drugs were). Maybe some people are still waiting for that "enlightenment".

When I was in year 8 I started waking up earlier and praying more before giong to school. This period of time in my life was when I feelt the most relaxed and peaceful and I could handle a difficult question or situation much better than before.
Now, I don't get that same feeling anymore, (you could say it's like wearing new shoes, when you first put them on, they are comfortable and you like the new feel of it, once you have worn them for a while you get used to them and so they become a part of your day-to-day lifestyle) but I would love to have that feeling again.

I have changed about what I thought before.

If you do anything against the Reht Maryada deliberately you are not a sikh.

You and others have shown me the many different things people think and do and have opened up my eyes.

Anyway,
Thanks a lot.

 

[badmash]

Nice thread. But typically off the mark.
Of course parents are too blame. Go to nearly any small to medium gurudwara. Kids are lounging outside, adults inside, many not understanding kirtan. Often no organized history or punjabi classes.
If the parents are too busy or tired or lazy to instill true pride and sense of
community, then :crazy: them!

I think it stems from ignorance. Most people are somewhat ignorant of sikh history, or if not, do really care for the qurbania of our ancestors. To me it is very simple, it matters not precisely is written in Shri GGS or which guru said what. Rather, it is that when the time came, the brave sikhs of old preferred death and honour over disgrace and conversion and subjugation. To me that is the essence of Sikh history. To be very blunt, our religion while being more equal and humanistic, is but a distilled form of Hinduism. We owe our spiritual roots to Hindus and Buddhists. BUT, our culturual, linguistic, martial heritages ---- I believe they are unique, and almost unmatched in terms of valour, chivalry, and sacrifice. To me that is what counts most of all. Be proud for the sacrifices of those who came before us, and for what they stood for. And if you cannot relate, and do not care, the hell with you.:hmm: :{;o:

 

[Hai_Bhi_Sach]

Of course parents are too blame. Go to nearly any small to medium gurudwara. Kids are lounging outside, adults inside, many not understanding kirtan. Often no organized history or punjabi classes.

Why do we put so much emphasis on blaming the past be it parents or our ancestors? Most of our parents were uneducated and most probably their parents before them. They had their fair share of problems in their lives dealing with social pressures. Resources were then limited too. Let us move forward and correct the mistakes of the past. We have far more resources and better communicating skills. At the moment we do not seem to be doing a great deal for our younger generations. Let us retire our elders from the religious institutions and reorganise them so that our younger generation does not raise the same question and blame us for doing nothing for them.

If the parents are too busy or tired or lazy to instill true pride and sense of
community, then them!

Let us come out of this. I wonder how our younger generation will see us in this situation.

I think it stems from ignorance. Most people are somewhat ignorant of Sikh history, or if not, do really care for the qurbania of our ancestors. To me it is very simple, it matters not precisely is written in Shri GGS or which guru said what. Rather, it is that when the time came, the brave Sikhs of old preferred death and honour over disgrace and conversion and subjugation. To me that is the essence of Sikh history. To be very blunt, our religion while being more equal and humanistic, is but a distilled form of Hinduism.

Your own comments show a certain amount of ignorance and arrogance. If these are your views and outlook about Sikh religion then God help us. I do not think we can rely on your positive contribution.

We owe our spiritual roots to Hindus and Buddhists. BUT, our culturual, linguistic, martial heritages ---- I believe they are unique, and almost unmatched in terms of valour, chivalry, and sacrifice. To me that is what counts most of all. Be proud for the sacrifices of those who came before us, and for what they stood for. And if you cannot relate, and do not care, the hell with you.

Ok we are all converts from the religions of that time be it Hinduism or Islam. It does not matter now. The sacrifices have been done for our sake. Now that we have come to know the right path let us take a positive step.
“Do not concentrate on the finger pointing away to the moon, look at the moon or YOU too will miss the heavenly glory”. If you feel so strongly about the sacrifices of our braves then take a step forward to honour those braves. Rather than just being a critic.

 

[badmash]

"Your own comments show a certain amount of ignorance and arrogance. If these are your views and outlook about Sikh religion then God help us. I do not think we can rely on your positive contribution."

And why is that? Because some of us have bias, and conviction and pride? Or should we all be sants to be slaughtered before the righteous, proselytizing religions of the west? I would say God help you and people like you and therefore us all. If you say your interest is in preserving sikhism and its culture, being the tiny minority we are, you must have a strong sense of who you are. Otherwise, logically you will be absorbed. I have no sadness at that, I just wish we would have done it long ago. Why did the sikhs of old sacrifice and die, to have modern sikhs ring their hands, and decry the lack of cohesion and self respect. Better we had all been converted or given up! Yes, we should all try to be positive. But the posting is in response to the question being raised of confusion among youth and girls and the issue of the responsibility of the older generation. If the older generation can be excused for lack of direction, culture and giving values, what can you expect from the younger?

"Ok we are all converts from the religions of that time be it Hinduism or Islam. It does not matter now."

The last five words are the essence of the problem. Indeed, if it does not matter, then why care? This is a true hindu ethos. Hence all the dung eating the populace of the subcontinent has done for better part of a millenium, eating the dust of the shoes of muslim and english invaders.

"If you feel so strongly about the sacrifices of our braves then take a step forward to honour those braves. Rather than just being a critic."

What is this, a feel good, pat yourself on the back, hey we are all such good people forum? You have been critical of my posting, and I of yours. That is what discussion and arguement is about. Otherwise, we would all be stuck in a tub of stinking boredom. :shifty: :ice:

 

[dalsingh]

I hear you badmash, at least I think I do.

All of the problems of Sikhs girls that are under discussion boils down to lack of strong sense of identity and the inevitable indifference to the fate of the community. This goes equally for many males too. This has to be taught or discovered. Seeing as people are generally lazy, we can't really rely on them discovering it themselves so parents must be responsible for this. But seeing as they are commonly ignorant about the basics of their heritage that could be used to uplift our people they usually end up doing in **** job in instilling a strong identity to their youth, although many exceptions do exist.

I don't think you need to be zealously religious to have this sense of identity it could also be based on a sense of historical continuity.

Sikhs/Khalsa achieved what many people can only dream of. A successful peoples revolution against all odds in the face of a powerful and ruthless foe(s). I don't think they could have achieved this solely through dogmatic religious practise although the religious side played a central role in unifying people under a common cause. Underneath this revolution was a strong desire for freedom and respect against rulers who were intent on crushing them for a variety of reasons.

I see people rigorously following maryada who are morally bankrupt all the time. They lack a wider understanding about compassion, inclusion and progress in a rapidly changing world as well as real physical bravery that marked out our forefathers. Not to say that all amritdharis are like this though but how often do you hear them open their mouths about serious social concerns in the panth? Some of them would rather beat up other Sikhs/Singhs who have different opinions from them or argue endlessly about stuff whilst things go down the pan on a street level. If we believe our ancestors were all united in an identical common belief then you are wrong. Most of them were illiterate or semi-illiterate peasants not political or theological experts. What helped them get through was bravery, honour, vision, strategy AND spirituality. Not solely the latter. Aplologies if anyone is offended by these comments but we are here to debate.

In the end Ankheela rahey Punjab and ankheelay rahey Punjabi.

 

[badmash]

I agree with your post totally. For me it is the sense of historical continuity which is the most relevant. You are totally correct, many of our illiterate and semi illiterate ancestors were not theologians. In fact, many were poor Jats who stood up and had their knack of stubbornness and pride which stood them well in the end. It always amuses me to read of the posts on casteism and what sikhism does or does not allow. When it came down to it, the success of Sikhism as a political and military force was based on the people from the rural, poor, illiterate areas....the reader may deduce. And I may add, the people of these areas know full well who the true carriers of the theological message and details were -- those who were educated (and hence mostly from the cities). Anyway, enough digression. The fact remains, we who are interested must do more to create awareness and true, non bigoted , non arrogant pride.

 

[dalsingh]

You have to be careful with the Jat hypothesis Badmash. I live and grew up an area largely populated by Pakistani Muslims and they have a large number of Jats within them who share the same racial ancestory as their Sikh equivalents. Believe you me, they are a world apart from Sikhs in their behaviour and attitudes. So I think it is wrong to put down Khalsa military success soley down to Jat characteristics as nonSikh Jats do not seem to possess these. Clearly something else was a contributing factor that caused the Sikhs to resist so recklessly against all odds. This was the miracle of the Khalsa.

In the crucial period in the early 1700s the Khalsa consisted of all lower sections of Punjabi society who all fought bravely against the Moghuls, this included so called chuhray and chamars. Have a quick look at the Book Review section of this site and look at the postings under the reviews for "Siques, Tigers or Thieves" and "Sikh History from Persian Sources", I put down some contemporary comments that helps shed light into the make up of the Khalsa soldiers there.

Another point takes away any strength from racial characteristics argument. This is the simple fact that most of the Punjabi people from the panth were there for a long time before the advent of Sikhism/Khalsaism and they never managed shite in resisting a long series of invasions that spanned centuries. Only after the Khalsa emerged did this take place, so we do owe our freedom to this way of life. Also a further point is that at least some of the original Khalsa warriors weren't even Punjabi i.e. look at where some of the Panj Piaray were from! Also Banda Singh Bahadur wasn't Punjabi either.

In my opinion caste is not good at all and causes to much friction in the community. We all belonged to whatever caste before Sikhism came and it never helped us diddly squat against invaders. Also bare in mind that when Sikhs were at their military strongest but had moved away from Khalsa ideology they didn't have the himmat to fight the British off successfully during the Anglo-Sikh wars and gave up after two closely contested wars instead of pursuing a guerilla campaign which would have been easily won. Whereas the original Khalsa, despite less resources, training, numbers and organisation never gave an inch against Moghuls, Persians and Afghans. This was the power of the real Khalsa mindset. One that didn't turn weapons into symbollic icons but really knew what they were to be used for! This is the heart of our heritage in my mind. But I don't know how we can enthuse females with stuff like that because although it really appeals to spirited males, females probably can't relate.



I saw that Mel Gibson film the other day and there was a quote at the beginning (can't remember from who), that said words to the effect of:

No great civilisation has been destroyed by external forces until they had destroyed themselves internally first.

Wise words for our people!

 

[badmash]

I guess I feel a bit differently. I do not think in absolutes. Sikhs from all parts of society were part of the collective achievements. There are reasons however that many of Sikh regiments in british times were almost all Jat, and the reasons stem from their unwillingness to serve with Mazbi sikhs all the way to their reputation as fighters one wanted up front. To some degree this is even true today, although few in the Indian army would own up to it.

Also, the Anglo Sikh wars were a close contest. And had there not been internal betrayal by the likes of Lal Singh and other Dogras, the outcome may have been different.

Banda Bahadur was the best, I hope they make a movie about him someday. He has many similarities, albeit on a bigger scale, than the wallace character of Mel Gibson's movie Lionheart.

We are all living in a world of illusion anyway.